Author Topic: Outside the Circles of Time - update  (Read 66208 times)

Offline kidneyhawk

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #345 on: August 23, 2008, 11:47:50 pm »
Quote

What does it all amount to? Does it help us to develop spiritually? What does it benefit us? And given that it's all ultimately just someone's assertions, how can we ever apply the "method of science" to it?

I guess, in summary, that I'm just curious to know the answer to that question: "So what?"


Paul-

Your question is right on the money. I've personally found this thread and some of the ideas its raised to be quite engaging. For example, Shugal-Choronzon as a formula relating to one stage in the ego's path towards Divinity. But my own symbolic and poetic predilections are not necessarily those of everyone else-nor have I ever thought they SHOULD be! I have no problem with others reading AC without a "Grantian Amplification"  nor do I have a problem with anyone who is following out what we think of as "True Will" by engaging in a tradition or exploration wholly distanced from our shared "Crowleyan Language." But I DO very much respect AC, not just as a truly great magician and a fascinating personality but someone who, however perfectly or imperfectly, functioned in a prophetic role with regards to human spiritual advancement. AC well understood the pitfalls awaiting those who would follow and thus cautioned us in his wry way about a certain "Demon Crowley." I think Kenneth Grant stands as one example of a human being who, whilst immersed in this particular path, did not close the blinds to the insight bristling about him by limiting himself to a servile obeisance. And despite what some may wish to think, I see him forging his own independent way whilst maintaining the greatest respect for (and taking the maximum insight from) this truly great man.

Furthermore, OTCOT offers an encouragement to the reader to do the same. I've never felt that Grant's books were ever urging me to believe or think the way he does but rather they were a complex yet poetic expression of truly opening to the 93 Current and letting it develop itself in us without limiting our or its potential.

I'm not a religious Crowleyite-but if I'm to be honest there have been aspects of me which HAVE veered in that direction at times. It can be very compelling. Unmasking the "outer form" and having a good look down into the mechanics of what's behind the expression is not only key to penetrating Grant's complexities but assimilating the life work of Alesiter Crowley without repeating the same psychological and religious mistakes he sought to liberate humanity from.

In the time I've spent on Lashtal.com I think I've witnessed some degree of growing into this insight and Mr. Grant has been one of many whose work has pushed me towards a better and deeper understanding of what this mortal life-and its attendent spiritual Quest-is about.

I don't think that I'm "right" with arguing a point about symbolism or numbers or structures and patterns which might help map out experience. But I would hope that in using some of those things, the continuing development of understanding might be communicated.

This is what I think Mr. Kenneth Grant wished to offer his readership. The ever widening spiral of those "AHA!" moments which isn't about intellectual conquest but living life at the most ecstatic and optimum level, wherever we might be on our Path.

93,

Kyle
"This is a false Body, an Incrustation over my Immortal Spirit, a Selfhood which must be put off and annihilated alway. To cleanse the Face of my Spirit by self-examination, To bathe in the waters of Life, to wash off the Not Human." -William Blake

Online lashtal

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #346 on: August 24, 2008, 01:00:39 am »
Nice answer, Kyle.

Thank you.
Paul Feazey
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Offline Camlion

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #347 on: August 24, 2008, 04:54:38 am »
Quote from: "lashtal"
It's at times like this that [...] I look forward to the crystal clarity of Crowley's prose and concepts.


You noticed that, too, Paul?  :D

Offline FraterS.M.T.S.G.

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« Reply #348 on: August 24, 2008, 03:17:36 pm »
Quote from: "lashtal"
Quote from: "Walterfive"
On a note actually on-topic, Starfire is now mailing the Deluxe editions of this book. I got the E-mail this A.M.

Come on, Walter: do try to keep up: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=29648#29648


Unfortunately, I have received no email regarding the shipments of the deluxes having been initiated. Hope this is just an oversight! Copy 56 is supposed to be headed my way.....

Offline Camlion

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #349 on: August 24, 2008, 06:17:22 pm »
Quote from: "Camlion"
Quote from: "lashtal"
It's at times like this that [...] I look forward to the crystal clarity of Crowley's prose and concepts.


You noticed that, too, Paul?  :D


No, seriously, Crowley had a genius for expressing abstract and complex ideas with remarkable clarity and simplicity. Grant's presumed intent is other than this. On the surface, the presentation of his ideas seems at once verbose and ill-organized, but they are apparently intended as the solve to Crowley's coagula, I think. Of what value is this? It is of little value to many, but of great value to a few. The psychology of the reader comes into play, certainly, and these are of many and varying sorts. For some, magical formulae must change almost constantly, for the sheer sake of change, as does the whimsy of fashion. For others, more serious, the deliberate goal is a state of perpetual 'openendedness' that Crowley, by virtue of his nature, would have been dissatisfied with, as would most of his serious readers; most, but not all. Those that find Grant helpful to the accomplishment of their Wills should certainly pursue his works, that much is obvious, by virtue of our Law.

Offline OKontrair

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #350 on: August 24, 2008, 11:22:44 pm »
Top marks for mastering his style but do I understand you correctly?

Kenneth Grant deliberately set out to be the antithesis of clarity specifically to cater for people who enjoy being bewildered?

OK
"Give me an 'F'....."  Country Joe & the Fish

Offline Camlion

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« Reply #351 on: August 25, 2008, 02:52:46 am »
Quote from: "OKontrair"
Top marks for mastering his style but do I understand you correctly?

Kenneth Grant deliberately set out to be the antithesis of clarity specifically to cater for people who enjoy being bewildered?

OK


 :lol: Well, that's not exactly what I meant.....

Offline adonia444

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #352 on: August 25, 2008, 03:16:54 am »
Well, what exactally did you mean then, if I may ask.

Thanks!

Offline adonia444

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« Reply #353 on: August 25, 2008, 03:22:36 am »
Where's the edit feature? Not where it used to be. My mistake with the spelling error.

Anyway.....

Online lashtal

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #354 on: August 25, 2008, 11:20:47 am »
The Edit and Delete options have been removed...
Paul Feazey
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Offline Camlion

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #355 on: August 26, 2008, 06:07:43 pm »
Quote from: "adonia444"
Well, what exactally did you mean then, if I may ask.

Thanks!


My thoughts were inspired by Paul's questions, as are my additional comments below:

Quote from: "lashtal"
It's at times like this that my brain begins to hurt and I look forward to the crystal clarity of Crowley's prose and concepts.

You and Kenneth may well be right, Kyle - I'm certainly not qualified to judge - but ... so what? What does it all amount to? Does it help us to develop spiritually? What does it benefit us? And given that it's all ultimately just someone's assertions, how can we ever apply the "method of science" to it?

I guess, in summary, that I'm just curious to know the answer to that question: "So what?"


I do observe that, while some people prefer and seek clarity, others seem to prefer and seek vagary. When one encounters the ideas of the other, they will automatically revert to the comfort zone of their own preference.

Clarity undone by contrariness-for-its-own-sake is a negative example of this. So is exaggerated omission seeking, the covert quest for incompleteness, so as to diminish the significance of the original set of ideas in question. Ego gratification can sometimes be at the root of such endeavors. The compulsion to amplify, expand upon or elaborate within the context of a preexisting set of admired ideas. The result is often the muddling of the original clarity, either deliberately or inadvertently.

There are also positive examples of vagary seeking, particularly as it relates to theurgy. The rejection of a given range of purportedly arbitrary and unnecessary restriction is typical of this; but it may also include, in the extreme, the objection to any adherence to self-discipline at all, mental, behavioral or otherwise. The method of science requires discipline. The method of science applied to theurgy requires self-discipline.

It would seem to me that Crowley adheres much more closely to the method of science in his approach to theurgy than does Grant, which happens to have greater appeal to me, personally.

Offline Walterfive

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #356 on: August 26, 2008, 06:28:00 pm »
Quote from: "lashtal"
The Edit and Delete options have been removed...


Por que?
Onward! Through the fog!-- Oat Willie

Online lashtal

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #357 on: August 26, 2008, 09:47:30 pm »
Several threads were becoming quite incomprehensible as the result of members editing their own previous posts: subsequent posts by other members were being made to look irrelevant or off-topic.
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Offline bazelek

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #358 on: August 27, 2008, 12:09:02 am »
Quote from: "Camlion"
It would seem to me that Crowley adheres much more closely to the method of science in his approach to theurgy than does Grant, which happens to have greater appeal to me, personally.


Am curious, what particular method of science does Crowley adhere to in his approach to theurgy? Anything that might be recognised by a scientist?

bazelek

Offline ianrons

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Outside the Circles of Time - update
« Reply #359 on: August 27, 2008, 01:44:50 am »
'scuse me if I butt in -- I admired the way in which sociology would have us interpret Crowley's "Scientific Illuminism" in terms of "previously discredited" Theosophical dogma.  However, I think we need to be careful to avoid using the same broad brush in discussions here.

Crowley's "science" would have the experimenter experiment on himself, which poses a verifiability problem.  However, the justification for the untold experimental error by the subject-object in the course of its own experiments on itself is, in fact, the very thing about which it hypothesizes: samadhi, which is (according to the dry description) the uniting of subject and object.  In other words, there is no other way of doing it.  The contention that Scientific Illuminism is incapable of classification under a 17thC empiricist heading is largely due to misunderstanding of this and of the question of the A.'.A.'. grade tasks and examinations, which are independently moderated and which do provide a framework for verifiability (key to which is replicability).

Once we get over the subject-object problem, it becomes a matter of specific method.  In this regard, Crowley is well ahead of his time, suggesting the diarization of results even when doing practices like dharana.  It's not some quackery we need to be ashamed of -- it's science at its most practical and, therefore, paradoxical.  In other words, Crowley's science is at an extreme end of which parapsychological research is somewhere near the middle.  Crowley used to say that cavillation is down to laziness: after all, it's not as though one could be building a machine to answer these questions of the human soul for us; but one can go to work on the machine one has.