L.Ron Hubbard and Thelema

[Azidonis]

93,

L. Ron Hubbard? An unscrupulous thief and conman who has brainwashed generations of sheep with his peculiar brand of bullshit. I highly reccomend "L. Ron Hubbard-- Messiah Or Madman?".

No connection of Scientology with Thelema whatsoever, other than the most tenuous.  Ron's bunko game has nothing in common with "Do what thou Wilt."

Short version: L. Ron Hubbard is a joke.

93 93/93

[Azidonis]

93,

The trouble with all of the Scientology "data" is that all of it comes from a false basis - the supposed infallibility of the E-Meter, which has been proved to be a highly inaccurate ancestor of the lie detector.

Been there, glitched that.

93 93/93

[michaelclarke18]

Great programme on BBC 1 this evening - exposing scientology. Quite a coup, one of the leading lights of scientology has defected and is now giving inside information about the ''religion''.

[FraterLucius]

Great programme on BBC 1 this evening - exposing scientology. Quite a coup, one of the leading lights of scientology has defected and is now giving inside information about the ''religion''.

Great, if it does get put on youtube I'd love to watch it.

[ElectroPagan]

One thing I find extremely interesting is when various individuals aggressively try to sum up another person or body of data...especially without having ever met the person they are talking about or studied even a fraction of the subject.

And even then, it's simply an opinion arrived at through one of many bio-computers occupying this planet :-)

Fun times!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulam2IWCPic

The BBC Scientology episode is beginning to appear on YT.

[wellredwellbred]

Hope you know that Hubbard was much influenced by Crowley, also Hubbard shared an O.T.O.- headquarter's house in Pasadena with Parsons, I think then Hubbard was a one-time member of Crowley's O.TO. but forgot about that. "Bare-Faced Messiah" by Russell Miller tells about the story, "Sex and Rockets" and "Strange Angel" might also be of interest, but haven't finished those books on Jack Parsons yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6fwzOYoAfY

L. Ron Hubbard : "Now, he could simply say, "I have action." A magician - the magic cults of the eighth, ninth, tenth, eleventh, twelfth centuries in the Middle East were fascinating. The only modern work that has anything to do with them is a trifle wild in spots, but it's fascinating work in itself, and that's work written by Aleister Crowley, the late Aleister Crowley, my very good friend. And he did himself a splendid piece of aesthetics built around those magic cults. It's very interesting reading to get hold of a copy of a book, quite rare, but it can be obtained. the Master Therion, T-h-e-r-i-o-n, The Master Therion by Aleister Crowley. He signs himself "The Beast"; "The Mark of the Beast, 666." Very, very something or other."

According to Crowley's own, or any standard, Thelema is not a successful movement compared with other movements. As documented in the youtube link and the quote above, L. Ron Hubbard was clearly fascinated with Thelema, but unlike Aleister Crowley's failure in making Thelema a worldwide religion, L. Ron Hubbard succeeded in making Scientology a worldwide religion.

And unlike Aleister Crowley who failed in appointing a sucessor with good leadership skills, L. Ron Hubbard was also successful at that.

L. Ron Hubbard's suscessful sucessor: David Miscavige.

[alysa]

For all that I'm quite happy that Thelema was or is not yet quite standardising towards the wishes Crowley might have had for his movement, also in the same term I am quite happy that untill now Crowley also has failed in having a 'succesful' leader whose's able to make Thelema a worlwide religion, that is to say I would like it that Thelema once may become a more recognised religious movement but not in the way Scientology has evolved, alright Scientology has much more followers than Crowley, but what's that to say, I do not even compare those two movements with each other. . .

[christibrany]

You know a lot of the figures Scientology touts as their number of followers are totally bogus.
based on book sales and people with genuine interest in Crowley and trying out Thelema vs people with genuine interest in Scientology, I would not be surprised in the least if Crowley had more of a following these days. For good reason!

I too think the BBC1 Docu. would be great viewing.
If you are ever interested in a book on the inside of Scientology from a former member and part of Hubbards cruise ship I highly recommend a highly entertaining book by Peter Moon (who likes Crowley) called "The Montauk Book of the Dead"
It is written in a nice first person narrative style, almost like a novel but it is fascinating for sure.
Plenty of what we would call magick, synchronicities, weirdness, and plain useful information.

[Azidonis]

Quality > Quantity

[nashimiron]

Great, if it does get put on youtube I'd love to watch it.

It be here, at the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00v1ykr/Panorama_28_09_2010/

I thought it interesting that there were several people who had left the church but continued to live by the principles of it's philosophy (presumably just the good bits). There seems to be a sort of Reformation going on.

[christibrany]

I tried to watch but the Man says you have to be a United Kingdomian to watch it
"Not Available in Your Area"
How Rude!

[nashimiron]

So much for the "World Wide" web!

[wellredwellbred]

I tried to watch but the Man says you have to be a United Kingdomian to watch it "Not Available in Your Area" How Rude!

"Panorama: The Secrets of Scientology", is available outside United Kingdom here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42UrHDx4lE


In my opinion, the seemingly bizarre behavior recorded in the BBC documentary, by representatives or agents of The Church of Scientology International, is simply due to the extremly critical importance it attach to protection, from corruption, of the system of initiation called "The Bridge to Total Freedom", which its founder supposedly entrusted it with taking care of, after his passing in 1986.    

"The Bridge to Total Freedom", is a system of initiation, leading the initiate towards "the highest level of survival for the longest possible time." This system ultimately leads the initiate towards the fulfilment of "the urge toward existence as INFINITY." An urge presumed by the founder of The Church of Scientology International, to be an inherent and absolute quality of the true nature of each individual person, of being an immortal being. Source: http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/basic-principles-of-scientology/eight-dynamics.html


"Fundamental to Scientology is a view of Man as a spiritual being. In Scientology, the spiritual being is called the thetan. The term is taken from the Greek letter theta [θ] for “thought” or “life” or “the spirit.” It is used to avoid confusion with previous concepts of the soul. The thetan is immortal and has lived—and will continue to live—through countless lifetimes. One is a thetan who has a mind and who occupies a body. The thetan animates the body and uses the mind." Source: http://www.scientology.org/faq/background-and-basic-principles/what-are-some-of-the-core-tenets-of-scientology.html and http://www.scientology.org/what-is-scientology/basic-principles-of-scientology/the-thetan.html

[wellredwellbred]

First of all, hi to everyone! Does anyone here finds in L.Ron Hubbard's Dianetics/Scientology, or any of his other writings and/views a connection to Thelema or Magick/Aleister Crowley?

According to Scientology you are actually an immortal spiritual being, and the goal of Scientology is to return this being to its inherent abilities (i.e. freeing it from the laws of this universe) and remove it from its need to have a body. The sole source for accomplishing this is the technology of L. Ron Hubbard.  

The goal of Thelema, is for the individual person to live out its 'true' inherent abilities. According to Thelema there is no dread after death, but dissolution of the body, and eternal ecstasy. That the sole source for understanding Thelema, is the writings of Aleister Crowley, is a common interpretation of 'The Comment' to Thelema's most holy text.


According to Scientology, those who miss the ultimate goal it proclaims, for each individual person, will have to live in a body again, untill the goal is reached.

Crowley seems to hint at something similar on page 593 in The Confessions of Aleister Crowley:

"If the superior is anything of a psychologist, he should be able to teach the average weakling fairly perfect self-control in three months at the outside. Neuburg improved enormously in consequence of the practice, and his final breakdown was due to a strain of racial congenital cowardice too deeply seated for eradication. He at least gained this: that he was brought face to face with this fundamental moral deficiency in his character. For the rest of his life he must expiate his infirmity, that his suffering may teach him the necessity of tackling it from the beginning in his next incarnation."

What are Thelemites opinion on Hubbard?

KingLamus, for this question, you could have used the polling option for threads on Lashtal.com.

Just wanted to know what the members here think of Hubbard.

This is my opinion: Hubbard left behind a system that is commonly misunderstood as a personality cult with him at the centre. Crowley left behind a system that is commonly misunderstood as a license to hedonism.

[mika]

Quite a coup, one of the leading lights of scientology has defected and is now giving inside information about the ''religion''.

There already are many people revealing inside information:
http://exscientologykids.com/