Author Topic: Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts  (Read 27867 times)

Offline Palamedes

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #195 on: March 08, 2010, 05:03:01 pm »
Quite so, Camlion. Especially if claiming to be 'well read' (can't comment on 'well bred').

Offline MichaelStaley

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #196 on: March 08, 2010, 06:31:32 pm »
Iskander, it's "wellred" - Stalinist, sunburnt, or embarrassed.

I'm not aware of any evidence that the source for the O.T.O. sex magick lies in Tantra as we understand it.

Crowley did not, to my knowledge, introduce his own system of "subchakras". There are a number of chakras besides the seven most commonly known - I think that is made clear in Woodroffe, perhaps "The Serpent Power", though it's been a number of years since I read it. Concerning the chakras, there are some schools who hold that these do not exist until the practitioner has created them.

Why is Urban being quoted as an authority here? Does a PhD or an MA or whatever make his words those of a god? No wonder Trotsky said "when I hear the word 'academic' I reach for my revolver".

Best wishes,

Michael.
"It's all in the egg".

Offline Palamedes

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #197 on: March 08, 2010, 06:38:50 pm »
Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
Iskander, it's "wellred" - Stalinist, sunburnt, or embarrassed.


 :oops:

Offline Camlion

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #198 on: March 08, 2010, 06:44:03 pm »
I think that Liber AL sufficed as a Crowley's 'tantric text,' and I believe that Grant also recognizes it as one such text, unless I'm mistaken.

Offline Palamedes

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« Reply #199 on: March 08, 2010, 06:54:09 pm »
Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
No wonder Trotsky said "when I hear the word 'academic' I reach for my revolver".


This may be a misquote Michael. I think the original is Goebels with his 'when I hear the word culture I reach for my gun.'

On the other hand, I am somewhat puzzled by the negative sentiments vis-a-vis Urban's statements. As far as I recall, he posted briefly on Lashat with respect to the responses to his book, claiming something like: why do you guys think that the fact that one is an academic excludes the possibility that one is also a practitioner? I also don't quite see why would academic study, which means learning languages, reading primary and secondary literature, visiting the place, conducting interviews (and possibly practicing) etc.... why would that mean that a person is disqualified to have an opinion on the subject? Why would that be contrary to the spirit of  the 'method of science'? Good examples are contemporary scholars of Buddhism, where a good bulk of them practice dharma, undergo initiations, and so forth, in addition to learning Sanskrit, Pali, Tibetan, and/or Chinese (and not too rarely all of them).  Agehananda Bharati (an Austrian who took traditional Hindu initiation into sannyasa, taught at the University of Washington, wrote the classic work 'Tantric Tradition' and claimed that he had his ultimate enlightenment experience having sex on LSD - among other things) once said that he would dismiss out of his office a student who would come to see him and claim that he wants to practice yoga or Zen without wishing to learn Sanskrit or Chinese. Trying to say that theory and practice can and should go together ; hell, I would even claim that theory is a form of practice; Crowley argued that a student should have theoretical knowledge of the subject that should be equivalent to a Ph.D. from a good University, so there ...

Offline MichaelStaley

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« Reply #200 on: March 08, 2010, 07:43:39 pm »
I think you've misunderstood me, Iskander.

I simply don't quite see why wellredwellbred adduces Urban's possession of a PhD or an MA as conferring authority in this matter. I have nothing against academia per se - I'm as broad-minded as anybody else, and some of my best friends are academics - but simply just wonder why Urban's academic qualifications are trotted out as lending some kind of extra weight to his opinions, whereas the opinions seem no more nor no less considered than those from uneducated oiks like myself. This sort of thing gets on my mammary glands - doubtless a chip on my shoulder because I had to leave school at the age of 11 in order to help provide for my 7 brothers and 9 sisters.

Yes, it was a misquote - I was parodying for comic effect. They used to love that line in Blackpool, but the silence now is deafening.

Best wishes,

Michael.
"It's all in the egg".

Offline Palamedes

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #201 on: March 08, 2010, 08:41:03 pm »
Michael, you're right. I'm sorry, I have misconstrued your comment by reading it out of context, i..e. not as a response to wellredwellbred's 'argument' but as a general statement. My bad. My apologies also for not realizing the misquote was intentional. I may be losing the sense of humour. Oh well...

Offline Tiger

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« Reply #202 on: March 08, 2010, 09:45:14 pm »
Quote
Crowley wasn't interested in initiating the world;

Still searching here's what I came across so far.

"He claims to be utterly selfish...because he includes every individual in his idea of himself. He can't be free as long as there are slaves about. Of course, there are some people whose nature it is to be slaves; they must be left to serve. But there are lots of us who are kings and don't know it; who suffer from the delusion that they ought to bow to public opinion, all sorts of alien domination. He spends his life fighting to emancipate people in this false subjection, because they are parts of himself."

A.C. Diary of a Drug Fiend pg206

Offline Noctifer

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« Reply #203 on: March 09, 2010, 11:21:52 am »
Interesting. The following post was inspired by, but is not responding to, Tiger's above.  His post just made me reflect, that the relevant statement that Tai originally made in his thoughtful, well-crafted post, was distorted and impoverished soon afterwards by someone else, into something which, typically perhaps, missed the subtle meaning which tai was trying to convey by a carefully-worded comparison. I'm not saying that I agree with it on any level at all, or disagree. BTW.

Tai's actual words were:

Quote
2. Crowley is interested in initiating the individual. Grant is interested in initiating the world.


We don't see anything suggesting Crowley wasn't interested in World-initiating (I think he was), or that Grant isn't into individual initiations (which I feel that he probably is). The statement was presumably made like this to simply suggest a subtle emphasis in perspective. I'm not sure where I stand on this statement personally, but it's nice to reflect on and think about.

The distorted, factually incorrect and wilfully altered form of it, which can be found at the bottom of page one of this thread, is :
Quote
Additionally, there are clearly issues with what tai wrote in his post, that Crowley wasn't interested in initiating the world (sic.) ; but kidneyhawk has already alluded to that and I can't be bothered to pursue it because it's so ridiculous.


Kindest regards,
Noctifer
"There is, however, another point. That is you seem to suffer from the delusion that secrets can be communicated to you by other people. This is altogether contrary to the principles of the Order which I represent." - AC, letter to David Curwen

Offline wellredwellbred

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #204 on: March 09, 2010, 01:10:46 pm »
Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
Iskander, it's "wellred" - Stalinist, sunburnt, or embarrassed.

I'm not aware of any evidence that the source for the O.T.O. sex magick lies in Tantra as we understand it.

Crowley did not, to my knowledge, introduce his own system of "subchakras". There are a number of chakras besides the seven most commonly known - I think that is made clear in Woodroffe, perhaps "The Serpent Power", though it's been a number of years since I read it. Concerning the chakras, there are some schools who hold that these do not exist until the practitioner has created them.

Why is Urban being quoted as an authority here? Does a PhD or an MA or whatever make his words those of a god? No wonder Trotsky said "when I hear the word 'academic' I reach for my revolver".

Best wishes,

Michael.




***My excuse to you: I informed about Urbans Phd, as a help to readers, so they would not go: Who the f**k  is this Urban guy? I am sorry if this information emotionally wounded you I any way, that was not my intention.


------------


In the thread, Dialectics, in a post Posted: Mar 08, 2010 - 01:28 PM, you wrote:

“On the whole I'd prefer discussion to be conducted in a more civil fashion than is sometimes the case here. Less instances of a primary school playground at the lunch-break would be nice.

Best wishes,

Michael.”



I prefer this also, instead of juvenile bantering about my forum nick.






***My clarification to you: Urban, or me paraphrasing or quoting him, does not imply Tantra as the source for the O.T.O. sex magic, but that Crowley misinterpreted Tantra to be mainly about sex, and that Crowley identified this warped Tantra with his brand of Western sex magic, and applied this misinterpretation in his sex magic writings.



-----------



You clearly are the go-to guy on this forum regarding matters Typhonian, and with my excuse and clarification to you above in this posting, and since I – as many other readers I am sure - neither know of any Typhonian concepts in particular, or the Typhonian tradition in general, I restate to you my questions:



Are basic misperceptions like equating Tantra with sex, indentifying Tantric ritual with Western sex magic, and associating Tantra with sexual liberation and sociopolitical subversion, contained within the Typhonian concepts?



Are the Typhonian concepts in any way male chauvinistic and misogynistic?



-------


Best wishes to you too.
The avatar image is from some "[...] Collection 2010: Nuevo Gothic." The model is on facebook here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=9206370223&set=o.2324013826 Singularity 2029 or the Omega Point, is gonna be the new 2012.

Offline Hecate

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #205 on: March 09, 2010, 02:03:30 pm »
Greetings!

Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
 
 In the thread, Dialectics, in a post Posted: Mar 08, 2010 - 01:28 PM, you wrote:

“On the whole I'd prefer discussion to be conducted in a more civil fashion than is sometimes the case here. Less instances of a primary school playground at the lunch-break would be nice.

Best wishes,

Michael.”

I prefer this also, instead of juvenile bantering about my forum nick.



Ahh! Wellredwellbred, I just realized that I misspelled your nick in the “Women in Thelema…”  thread yesterday.  :roll:

I apologize, it was unintended…
(Even though, after a certain age, “juvenile bantering” would rather sound as a compliment to one’s ears).  :wink:


Regards
Hecate
"In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Heh HB:Yod and in Osiris HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Shin HB:Heh HB:Yod . "

Offline the_real_simon_iff

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #206 on: March 09, 2010, 02:28:39 pm »
Noctifer, 93!

Well, if you give tai the benefit of "carefully worded" and "subtle" posts, you should not be so harsh with others. I mean, tai wrote a nice little list of differences between AC and KG, witty and concise, therefore black and white. If we use your kind of understanding these short lines, we might end up agreeing that AC and KG are in fact one - grey - person:

A few examples:

1. Crowley is not not questioning the human race (since it doesn't say so) and KG is also about the individual.

2. Crowley also appeals to intuition and Grant sometimes to intellect. Who would deny it?

10. Crowley has no sense of irony? Grant is all-too real in his message?

I don't want to say that tai's list is right or wrong, but if we read it with too much emphasis on hidden meanings and subtlety it is pretty useless to discuss about.

Love=Law
Lutz
"Jesus Christ had a lifetime of fame and success, three days of pain and disgrace, and ended up with St. Paul. Crowley had a lifetime of pain and disgrace, three days of Divine attention, and ended up with Mr. John Symonds. I know who I prefer." - A.D.

Offline MichaelStaley

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #207 on: March 09, 2010, 04:54:52 pm »
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
I prefer this also, instead of juvenile bantering about my forum nick.
My apologies for any offence caused. I was merely correcting someone's misspelling in a lighthearted manner.
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
Are basic misperceptions like equating Tantra with sex, indentifying Tantric ritual with Western sex magic, and associating Tantra with sexual liberation and sociopolitical subversion, contained within the Typhonian concepts?
With all due respect, this is a bit like the old classic "have you stopped beating your wife yet?". I do not accept Urban's thesis in the first place, so clearly am at a disadvantage in commenting whether these alleged "misperceptions" are perpetuated in the Typhonian tradition.
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
Are the Typhonian concepts in any way male chauvinistic and misogynistic?
Not in my opinion.

Best wishes,

Michael.
"It's all in the egg".

Offline Noctifer

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #208 on: March 09, 2010, 09:28:59 pm »
XCIII, TheRealSimonIff!

Thanks for your thoughts. Replying to your ultimate question, I'd say that, firstly, it depends what your aim in "discussion" (which needn't be dialectic) is; and secondly, that in the example I refer to, relying on misquotes and twisted meanings to compulsively create conflict is, depending on one's motivation, not necessary. Listening (or at least trying to)to what people mean instead of what it suits one for them to mean is a virtue, I think.

Regards,
n.
"There is, however, another point. That is you seem to suffer from the delusion that secrets can be communicated to you by other people. This is altogether contrary to the principles of the Order which I represent." - AC, letter to David Curwen

Offline wellredwellbred

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Correspondences between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts
« Reply #209 on: March 09, 2010, 11:14:07 pm »
Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
I prefer this also, instead of juvenile bantering about my forum nick.
My apologies for any offence caused. I was merely correcting someone's misspelling in a lighthearted manner.
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
Are basic misperceptions like equating Tantra with sex, indentifying Tantric ritual with Western sex magic, and associating Tantra with sexual liberation and sociopolitical subversion, contained within the Typhonian concepts?
With all due respect, this is a bit like the old classic "have you stopped beating your wife yet?". I do not accept Urban's thesis in the first place, so clearly am at a disadvantage in commenting whether these alleged "misperceptions" are perpetuated in the Typhonian tradition.
Quote from: "wellredwellbred"
Are the Typhonian concepts in any way male chauvinistic and misogynistic?
Not in my opinion.

Best wishes,

Michael.


Your reference to "the old classic "have you stopped beating your wife yet" in regard to one of my two questions

does not fit, as I regarding this question first present a detailed description/definition of some particular misperceptions in the

work of one author, Aleister Crowley, and then ask if those particular misperceptions can be found in the

work of one other author, Kenneth Grant, an author who's writings are familiar to you.




But then you also present yourself as being in outright disagreement with the description/definition of the

mentioned particular misperceptions in the first place.






Thanks to you and kidneyhawk though, for replying to one - and the same - of my two questions.








Hecate, I avoid misspelling of other member's forum nicks by using cut and past from their postings.
I have not been aware of or been bothered by anyone misspelling my forum nick so far.


But if someone repeatedly misspelled my nick like for example WellredWelldead, it would bother me.  :?  





It realy suprised me to read on page 204 in Henrik Bogdan's book from 2007: Western esotericism and rituals of

initiation
, that:




"Even though no less than fifteen biographies of Crowley have been published, a scholarly work dealing with Crowley

in relation with Western esotericism has yet to be written."





At the same page DGWE‎ (‎=Dictionary of gnosis & Western esotericism‎) (2005), 281-287, is referred to as "... a general introduction to the life and teachings of Aleister Crowly."


Link to Western esotericism and rituals of initiation at books.google:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ApuE1tEMBuYC&pg=PA184&dq=Dictionary+of+Gnosis+%26+Western+Esotericism&hl=no&cd=6#v=snippet&q=Western%20esotericism%20and%20rituals%20of%20initiation&f=false

[<<<<The image to the left

can be found on Henrik Bogdan's own internet page: http://www.finyar.se/bogdan.htm .]


At page 905 in Dictionary of gnosis & Western esotericism‎ - in the article titled 'Ordo Templi Orientis'

pages 898-906 written by Marco Pasi, Assistant Professor of History of Western Esotericism from the 18th Century to

the Present at the University of Amsterdam - it is stated that Kenneth Grant uses his communications from

"extraterrestrial entities" as the basis for his claim to authority.


This reminds me of - and recembles - the information provided by Patriarch156 in the thread 'Request for Crowleys

take on lineage...' - http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-4039-highlight-lineage.phtml - which shows

AC continously stressing the Praeterhuman Intelligences who were behind the Book of the Law, the Secret

Chiefs, as the sole source of proper authority.




So my question is:


Is Aleister Crowley's focus on the Praeterhuman Intelligences who were behind the Book of the Law, as the

sole source of proper authority, and Kenneth Grant using his communications from " extraterrestrial entities" as

the basis for his claim to authority, a correspondence between Thelema and the Typhonian concepts?  



[<<<<The image

to the left can be found on Marco Pasis' own internet page: http://www.amsterdamhermetica.nl/Marco_Pasi.php?id=22&%3BSid=65&%3BSSid=68 .]
The avatar image is from some "[...] Collection 2010: Nuevo Gothic." The model is on facebook here: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=9206370223&set=o.2324013826 Singularity 2029 or the Omega Point, is gonna be the new 2012.