Keith418 on class, politics, and religion

[Azidonis]

Though I usually disagree with him, I like hearing Keith418's perspective. He brings a rigor to his thinking that one does not often find elsewhere. He's always challenging, in a way that Crowley was also challenging, but in which not many modern-day Thelemites are. But sometimes I feel Keith418 is "transgressive," to use one of his favorite words, for the sake of being transgressive, and ironically this can lead to beating the same drum altogether too much until it's just noise for the sake of noise.

That being said, Thelemites need the continued cultural criticism. And maybe it has to be loud.

You seem to have made the same blunder as he, by saying "Thelemites need [blank]".

And of course, Keither418 has done the same with his use of the term, "Thelemite", and the question still stands:

What is a Thelemite?

[Swamiji]

A very interesting article.  Also, interestingly enough, his complaints mirror the complaints that certain Buddhist writers have been making about what they call "consensus buddhism" (the big, bland, "nice" mainstream buddhism of the west).  For reference:

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/nice-buddhism/

[Camlion]

A very interesting article.  Also, interestingly enough, his complaints mirror the complaints that certain Buddhist writers have been making about what they call "consensus buddhism" (the big, bland, "nice" mainstream buddhism of the west).  For reference:

http://meaningness.wordpress.com/2011/06/10/nice-buddhism/

An interesting analogy, Swamiji.

[herupakraath]

And of course, Keither418 has done the same with his use of the term, "Thelemite", and the question still stands:

What is a Thelemite?

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

[Azidonis]

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

And these grades are defined as...?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nit-picking.

I'm saying that the article seems to clump every tom, dick, and harry that has ever seen a unicursal hexagram into the term "Thelemite" (this is an obvious exaggeration of my own).

I agree with what you are saying, but criteria for those grades varies, it would seem.

[Camlion]

And of course, Keither418 has done the same with his use of the term, "Thelemite", and the question still stands:

What is a Thelemite?

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

This is the correct answer, it must be, as it fulfills the equation, although without defining the three grades.

[Azidonis]

And of course, Keither418 has done the same with his use of the term, "Thelemite", and the question still stands:

What is a Thelemite?

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

This is the correct answer, it must be, as it fulfills the equation, although without defining the three grades.

I agree, but the grades still have to be defined. And depending on that definition, which I am sure is rather "exclusive" in many cases, the masses are really left out, including those newer seekers and many making the claim to being "Thelemites".

Which brings us back to... "What 'Thelemites' is he talking about?"

[herupakraath]

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

And these grades are defined as...?

If you're having to ask that question, you can be reasonably assured that Liber Trigrammaton, The Book of Mutations, the ALW system , and Hermetic Qabalah are not the alphanumerical keys to TBOTL.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not nit-picking.

I understand; I'm aware of your sincerity, and that you're asking the hard questions that need to be asked.

Advocates of Thelema have painted themselves into a corner; those that reject the Book of the Law as a genuine divine transmission have no solid foundation to base their beliefs on other than an all-inclusive universalist philosophy that is remarkably similar to the slave religions Thelema is intended to replace, and the reason why we see people claiming that Thelema consists of the worship of Yahweh and Jesus, having nothing else to turn to but their original religious programming.

Those people that consider TBOTL genuine are having an even tougher time than their universalist counterparts, by having to exercise what is essentially faith due to the many unanswered questions that remain about verses in the book. To compound the problem, attempts to answer the questions that need to be answered are met with scorn and ridicule, or the 'shunning' dictated in The Comment, creating a perfectly vicious circle.

The only way to answer the question about the grades effectively is by answering all of the questions TBOTL poses at the same time. To provide conclusive, comprehensive insight into TBOTL is a tremendous act of magick fraught with both dangers and complications; there is much to be gained and lost by the forces that have gathered themselves to the book, and the reason why I consider the book a magical Trojan horse. In the end, the gods of TBOTL will prevail, which is all I have to say about the matter for now.

[Azidonis]

A Thelemite is someone that has attained at least one of the grades named in verse I: 40 of TBOTL.

And these grades are defined as...?

If you're having to ask that question

I'm not asking the question for myself. I know the answers to the question.

But, instead of taking a similar stance to Keith418 and saying a bunch of stuff about "Thelemites" and "Three Grades", I'm merely pointing to the principle failure of his argument.

The question at hand is something that he himself should have asked before grouping anyone who has ever heard of Crowley into the term "Thelemite". That's all I'm saying.

I suppose I should have just said so in the beginning, but I was hoping to avoid having to spell it out.

Been doing that a lot lately.... it's getting old.

[Keith418]

Follow up interview here: http://skepoet.wordpress.com/2011/11/24/marginalia-and-religious-ethnography-botched-another-interview-with-keith418-on-hegel-religion-occultism-and-political-ideology