Author Topic: Nietzsche  (Read 3629 times)

Offline Azidonis

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2012, 10:11:33 pm »
Keith appears to be asking for 'True' Thelemites to reject all concepts of "equality, kindness, compassion, etc."

Which is crap.
"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Los

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2012, 10:21:59 pm »
Which is crap.
Let's be clear: Thelema isn't about equality, kindness, and compassion (in fact, The Book of the Law explicitly denies equality in AL I:3).

But Thelema is also not about inequality, unkindness, and cruelty (in fact, The Book of the Law explicitly denies inequality in AL I:3)

Thelema is about the True Will (it's right there in the name!). Some people's Will may motivate them toward acts of kindness; others' Will may motivate them toward acts of cruelty.

To say that a Thelemite "must be X" or "must be Y" is to misunderstand Thelema, which most Thelemites do (as you yourself have demonstrated consistently, Azidonis) and which Keith does as well.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
--William Blake

Offline Azidonis

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2012, 10:27:40 pm »
Which is crap.
Let's be clear: Thelema isn't about equality, kindness, and compassion (in fact, The Book of the Law explicitly denies equality in AL I:3).

But Thelema is also not about inequality, unkindness, and cruelty (in fact, The Book of the Law explicitly denies inequality in AL I:3)

Thelema is about the True Will (it's right there in the name!). Some people's Will may motivate them toward acts of kindness; others' Will may motivate them toward acts of cruelty.

To say that a Thelemite "must be X" or "must be Y" is to misunderstand Thelema, which most Thelemites do (as you yourself have demonstrated consistently, Azidonis) and which Keith does as well.

An ethical example: The "Right to Live" versus "Survival of the Fittest". To say that only the fittest deserve the right to live is contrary to the right to live, which includes everyone. To say that the right to live is not in contrast with survival of the fittest is also an error. It's an ethical fence, and I do not think a cut and dry rule exists for handling such situations.
"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Keith418

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2012, 10:29:39 pm »
"We are born into a World which is in Bondage to Ideals; to them we are perforce fitted, even as the Enemies to the Bed of Procrustes."

- Crowley

What are the dominant ideals of the world we are born into except: egalitarianism, democracy, the "golden" rule, utilitarianism, compassion, etc.? True, some of us may be born into families, like Tom's, who are still using an older set of "ideals" - but is this true for modern American society as a whole? Some Thelemites talk as if they were living a society run by Pat Robertson, but this is clearly not the case for most of us. The centers of corporate, media, and educational power are secular in the extreme. Our well-off and well-educated classes are the ones backing gay rights, compassion, rationalism, and "diversity."

"Atheists" tell us all the time that we need to resist the supernatural - but they accept these ideals and values as a priori and do not see them as the bed of Procrustes the way Crowley does. Who they choose as targets is illuminating.  Their choices reveal who they are protecting and who they are attacking.

"The curse of society has been Procrustean morality, the ethics of the herd-men."

- Crowley

Here is Crowley again invoking both Procrustes and Nietzsche's ideas. Are the modern ideals of secular, humanistic "herd ideals"... or not? Are they the "bed of Procrustes" in the way Crowley means? If they are, then we should be attacking them. If they aren't, and if Crowley is wrong, then we needn't bother. In that case, however, why do we need Crowley and Thelema at all? Why not just be liberal, atheistic humanists? After all, you don't need to be a Thelemite to look down on religious fundamentalists.

Offline Azidonis

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2012, 10:33:11 pm »
If they are, then we should be attacking them. If they aren't, and if Crowley is wrong, then we needn't bother. In that case, however, why do we need Crowley and Thelema at all?

Who is "we"? Speak for yourself.
"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Los

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2012, 10:51:52 pm »
An ethical example: The "Right to Live" versus "Survival of the Fittest".
There's no such thing as "the right to live." The right to live is entirely imaginary.

And "Survival of the fittest" isn't an ethical principle. It's a description of how natural selection works.

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To say that the right to live is not in contrast with survival of the fittest is also an error.
I have no idea what you're trying to say. The two aren't even in the same category, so they can't be compared or contrasted: one is an (imaginary) ethical "right," and the other is a description of an observed phenomenon.

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It's an ethical fence, and I do not think a cut and dry rule exists for handling such situations.
There is one rule that exists for handling all situations: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
--William Blake

Offline Los

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 10:54:17 pm »
I have this funny image of my head of Keith with a huge file on his computer (no doubt titled "Nonsense Screeds") that he just copies and pastes from for his posts on this and other threads.

Certainly nothing he's said in any way addresses the serious objections that have been leveled against his position.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
--William Blake

Offline Keith418

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2012, 11:05:55 pm »
Crowley & Nietzsche shared a bitter scorn directed at their societies and their contemporaries.  This kind of thorough societal criticism has evaporated among contemporary Thelemites. Is this because modern secular culture has become more Thelemic? Or is it because modern Thelemites do not share the standards and values with which Nietzsche and Crowley judged, and in many instances, condemned their times?

If Barry is a Thelemite who is more attached to liberal secular humanism than he is to what Crowley taught, why would he have any sympathy at all with Crowley & Nietzsche's kind of societal criticism? He wouldn't feel the need to criticize modern society because his values are aligned with it. He might even feel guilty for agreeing with one of Crowley's more caustic comments!

If we agree that modern society is more Thelemic, then we wouldn't - as Thelemites - feel any great need to attack it in the way, and for the reasons, Crowley did. On the other hand, if we thought that Crowley was right, and that many of his criticisms of his society also apply to our own, then we would see the lack of such criticism for what it really is - acquiescence to the status quo and a more or less silent surrender of Thelema's challenges. Barry might not admit any of this. But when Barry only criticizes those on the right and those who endorse Nietzsche & Crowley's more unpopular views, then Barry is betraying his real allegiances.

If we are disappointed with modern society, then we have to attack the values that gave birth to it and which sustain it. We can't do that without discarding those values or - at the very least - being ready to criticize them and what they have given us. If all Thelema is supposed to do is to function as a kind of "hit man" against lingering Christian fundamentalists, then it can't ever criticize the other opponents of fundamentalism effectively.

Offline Los

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2012, 11:25:00 pm »
Crowley & Nietzsche shared a bitter scorn directed at their societies and their contemporaries.  This kind of thorough societal criticism has evaporated among contemporary Thelemites. Is this because modern secular culture has become more Thelemic? Or is it because modern Thelemites do not share the standards and values with which Nietzsche and Crowley judged, and in many instances, condemned their times?
Or is it because many (most?) Thelemites today have a True Will that does not incline them to critique society?

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If Barry is a Thelemite
Bwahahaha. "Barry the Thelemite." What's your next example, "Rick the Minerval Candidate"? 

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If we are disappointed with modern society
All "disappointment with society" is an illusion produced by the Khu, part of pining after a "better world."

There's no such thing as a better world. It's a thought in your head, not reality. The sooner you learn to see through it, the sooner you'll have one less veil around your True Will.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
--William Blake

Offline amadan-De

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 02:55:01 pm »
Keith appears to be asking for 'True' Thelemites to reject all concepts of "equality, kindness, compassion, etc."

Which is crap.
Quite possibly.
What is entirely crap is his assumption that Society ("Thelemic" or otherwise) universally follows the American models that he (thinks he) is familiar with. This makes his pronouncements meaningless outside a very narrow set of (possibly spurious) targets.
Above all remember this: that magic belongs as much to the heart as to the head and everything which is done, should be done from love or joy or righteous anger.

amadan-De: butterfly, God's fool.
Sometimes applied to giddy, foolish children.

Offline Azidonis

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 05:06:05 pm »
Keith appears to be asking for 'True' Thelemites to reject all concepts of "equality, kindness, compassion, etc."

Which is crap.
Quite possibly.
What is entirely crap is his assumption that Society ("Thelemic" or otherwise) universally follows the American models that he (thinks he) is familiar with. This makes his pronouncements meaningless outside a very narrow set of (possibly spurious) targets.

Agreed.

An ethical example: The "Right to Live" versus "Survival of the Fittest".
There's no such thing as "the right to live." The right to live is entirely imaginary.
And "Survival of the fittest" isn't an ethical principle. It's a description of how natural selection works.

You are missing it. When dealing with a society (ie. people other than yourself), survival of the fittest becomes an ethical issue, just like the right to live is. It is the balance between them that I am looking at.

There is one rule that exists for handling all situations: Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

This is a mostly individualist statement that does not hold up within all current or past society models. In fact, I would be surprised to see a long lasting society model that has used it exclusively, and the results from that. Cefalu, in this light, was a failure.
"Nirvana is the extinction of all notions." - Thich Nhat Hanh

Offline Los

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2012, 08:02:17 pm »
Anyway, back to Nietzsche.

Nietzsche’s Genealogy of Morals, essentially, can be quickly summarized as follows: once upon a time, there were Masters who were powerful, healthy and who – as all healthy souls do –considered themselves and their actions to be good – strength, dominance, joy, lust for life, selfishness, etc. – and considered the opposite qualities (weakness, submission, sorrow, despair, resignation from life) to be bad.

Then along came the slaves – the weak people who were “bad” under Master morality – and they revaluated morality and, out of spite, applied the label “evil” to what the Masters called “good.” And these slaves also labeled “good” their own weaknesses, which the Masters had called “bad.”

Get it? So these slaves call weakness, sorrow, despair, resignation from life, meekness, pity, compassion and all the rest “good,” while condemning egotism, lust for life, strength, etc. They flipped morality on its head, essentially.

One tribe of slaves (i.e. the Jews) actually managed to make the whole (Western) world bow to their slave morality through the figure of Jesus. So now the whole (Western) world follows slave morality, and Nietzsche saw part of his “mission” as involving “righting” morality, turning it back the way it belongs.

[Incidentally, Nietzsche is always insistent on Jesus’ Jewishness and on Christianity as an extension (the “finest flower,” in fact) of the slave religion of Judaism…it’s easy to see Nietzsche as being anti-Semitic here, but a much more nuanced (and true) reading is that Nietzsche liked to piss off Christian anti-Semites. He loved reminding anti-Semites that they worship a Jew and that their religion is even *more* Jewish than Judaism! More on Nietzsche’s hatred of anti-Semitism in a bit]

So, Nietzsche’s account is interesting, but as I indicated above, it’s overly simplistic and treats “slave morality” as a corruption of some “Master morality” when in fact what he calls “slave morality” has been demonstrated (since Nietzsche was alive) to be a natural development of evolution.

It’s far more interesting to see Nietzsche’s account of morality as metaphorical of the stages an individual goes through in relation to moral law, and here one should consider the “metamorphoses” at the beginning of Zarathustra. There, Nietzsche represents an individual’s journey as moving through the stages of Camel (having “thou shalts” piled onto one’s back, slave morality), transforming into a Lion (breaking the “thou shalts,” roughly corresponding to master morality), and finally transforming – interestingly enough for Thelemites – into a Child. A “Creator” who creates from the depth of his being.

Now obviously, I’m not trying to write off Nietzsche as being just some metaphorical writer. He clearly was not, and he was intensely critical of democracy, “goodness,” compassion, and all the rest. Or, to put it another way, he was intensely critical of the impulse to laud these things as unquestionably desirable. He wanted to ask where the desire for these things came from. Why does everyone hold up “compassion” as if it’s some great good, he asked. Why does everyone want to put an end to suffering, when all great accomplishments can only be achieved through suffering? Why, he asked, do all philosophers want to find “truth”? After all, so much of what we do is predicated on lies – even our perception of reality is, in a sense, a “lie” constructed by our brains that falsify what we see.

And one of the answers he came up with was “The Will to Power.” That’s why people want to end suffering and resign from life: to gain power over it. That’s why philosophers want to find “truth”: “truth” is their word for the concept by which they gain (at least imaginary) control over life itself.

Man, Nietzsche concluded, is the animal who esteems, the animal who sets value for himself, and it is that setting of value – that giving himself morality – that mastering himself by directing his impulses toward a goal…that is the motion of the Will to Power, the drive to constantly “overcome” himself by mastering himself and directing himself toward a goal.

And so, even though *everything* is a manifestation of this will to power – even slave morality – Nietzsche wanted to construct his own values in the face of nihilism (whose fruit was resignation from life). He wanted to construct life-affirming values.

It’s in this context that he thought “pity” and “sympathy” should be condemned. Here’s a great extract from Beyond Good and Evil on this subject:

Quote from: Nietzsche
OUR sympathy is a loftier and further-sighted sympathy:—we see how MAN dwarfs himself, how YOU dwarf him! and there are moments when we view YOUR sympathy with an indescribable anguish, when we resist it,—when we regard your seriousness as more dangerous than any kind of levity. You want, if possible—and there is not a more foolish "if possible"—TO DO AWAY WITH SUFFERING; and we?—it really seems that WE would rather have it increased and made worse than it has ever been! Well-being, as you understand it—is certainly not a goal; it seems to us an END; a condition which at once renders man ludicrous and contemptible—and makes his destruction DESIRABLE! The discipline of suffering, of GREAT suffering—know ye not that it is only THIS discipline that has produced all the elevations of humanity hitherto? The tension of soul in misfortune which communicates to it its energy, its shuddering in view of rack and ruin, its inventiveness and bravery in undergoing, enduring, interpreting, and exploiting misfortune, and whatever depth, mystery, disguise, spirit, artifice, or greatness has been bestowed upon the soul—has it not been bestowed through suffering, through the discipline of great suffering?

In other words, suffering is a part of life, and a key part of it. People who want to “end suffering,” who want to be relieved from all the pain and misery of existence – these people really want to deny life, to escape from it, to embody nihilism. These people with their “pity” feel so bad about the suffering that is not only inevitable but that feeds the higher achievements. Nietzsche recommends “pity” not for the creature in man, but for the Creator in man: he says that he has a *higher* kind of pity for the Overman, who can only be achieved *through* suffering.

Similar sentiments from the Gay Science

Quote from: Nietzsche
The "religion of compassion" (or "the heart") bids him help, and he thinks he has helped best when he has helped most speedily! If you adherents of this religion actually have the same sentiments towards yourselves which you have towards your fellows, if you are unwilling to endure your own suffering even for an hour, and continually forestall all possible misfortune, if you regard suffering and pain generally as evil, as detestable, as deserving of annihilation, and as blots on existence, well, you have then, besides your religion of compassion, yet another religion in your heart (and this is perhaps the mother of the former) the religion of smug ease. Ah, how little you know of human happiness - you comfortable and benevolent people! For happiness and unhappiness are brother and sister - or even twins who grow up together - or in your case - remain small together!

Fantastic stuff. Shortly thereafter in that section he critiques pity on the grounds that it diverts the individual from his or her path in life.

Quote from: Nietzsche
How is it at all possible for a person to keep to his path! Some cry or other is continually calling one aside: our eye then rarely lights on anything without it becoming necessary for us to leave for a moment our own affairs and rush to give assistance. […]

Indeed, there is even a secret seduction in all this awakening of compassion, and calling for help: our "own way" is a thing too hard and insistent, and too far removed from the love and gratitude of others, we escape from it and from our most personal conscience, not at all unwillingly, and, seeking security in the conscience of others, we take refuge in the lovely temple of the "religion of pity."

There’s much in this insightful passage that comments on the idea of compassion being “the vice of kings,” by the way: compassion is something pleasurable, seductive, but that ultimately diverts the individual from his own path.

But it would be a mistake to conclude from Nietzsche’s disdain for pity and compassion that therefore Nietzsche must have endorsed “being a dick,” as the kids say.

He himself – though forceful, prideful, and all the rest in his published writings that he directed toward people he considered his intellectual community – was quite kind to others in his daily life. There’s a famous line in his writings – so famous that I’ve forgotten where I read it initially…maybe Ecce Homo? – that runs something along the lines of, “my humanity consists not in feeling with other people but enduring that I feel with them,” suggesting someone who feels deeply for other people and who must “overcome” the weight of his natural sympathy in order to philosophize as he does, with a hammer.

And then this from The Antichrist:

Quote from: Nietzsche
When the exceptional man handles the mediocre man with more delicate fingers than he applies to himself or to his equals, this is not merely kindness of heart--it is simply his duty

Plus, Nietzsche was always very kind and gentle to his casual acquaintances. Hell, when he finally had his mental collapse, he broke down on his way to confront a guy who was beating a horse: he greatly disapproved of cruelty toward animals.

Now, obviously, I’m not trying to paint Nietzsche as some kind of PC, Tree-hugging Lefty because he obviously was not. But like a lot of great thinkers and writers, he was very, very good at articulating exactly what he *opposed*, but wasn’t so hot at giving the specifics of what he *advocated.* Sure, he talks up “nobility” and the aristocracy, Masters as opposed to slaves, and he drew a lot of inspiration from classical culture and their ideal of virility (that is, virtu in its original sense of manly vigor and not the ridiculous Christian, middle-class “virtue,” which is an excuse to deny life)…but there’s nothing in Nietzsche resembling any sort of coherent plan for society or practical scheme for action in the real world. Nietzsche was a man who loved to think and think about thinking, and he loved kicking the asses of lame philosophers like Kant, who just dolled up their stupid Christianity and moral sensibilities in complicated language and tried to justify it thereby. But he wasn’t exactly filled with practical political schemes.

Since I brought up Shelley earlier in the thread, he’s a good example of this same phenomenon of not being able to articulate what he advocates: Shelley had no problem giving voice to *exactly* what he opposed. Read “The Mask of Anarchy” sometime: it’s a scintillating critique of capitalism, government corruption, and privilege, and it sounds like it could have been penned by a modern enthusiast of “Occupy Wallstreet” (if the OWS crowd actually had any talent for doing anything). Listen to the “chorus” of the poem, spoken by the earth itself:

Quote from: Shelley
'Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many - they are few.

We are the 99% indeed. Shelley is writing before Karl Marx, remember, but he anticipates many of Marxism’s critiques…hell, he even anticipates the whole “cast off your chains” business. It’s very clear what Shelley is against.

But what Shelley wasn’t good at was coming up with some kind of coherent plan of action for the future. His generally-considered-poor epic poem The Revolt of Islam reimagines the French Revolution as a bloodless coup inspired by poets (of course), but Shelley can’t articulate anything to put in place of monarchy and religion once they fall: he just has his heroes become martyrs at the end, inspiration for the cause of some future revolution.

Compared to these writers, Crowley has the advantage of at least clearly articulating some fairly specific plans and clear ideas of what he advocated. So he gets a thumbs up for that. The only problem with Crowley is that his political writings are juvenile, unworkable, and on the whole pretty stupid and ridiculous. It’s for this reason, by the way, that people roll their eyes when trolls like Keith418 come into town and start lecturing everyone on how we ought to be taking Crowley’s political ideas “seriously” and how “challenging” they are. Or even better, how we really ought to “take seriously” Crowley’s typical, nineteenth-century casual racism.

Speaking of which! There’s one final point to make regarding Nietzsche and the Jews.

It’s certainly true that Nietzsche was critical of the Jews (who wasn’t he critical of?), but he seemed to have a lot of respect for them (for being strong enough to impose their morality on the world, for starters), and he definitely hated anti-Semites and anti-Semitism in general.

Here’s a fascinating web page with quotes from Nietzsche on anti-Semites and how “disgusted” he was by them: http://www.nietzschespirit.com/files/Anti-Semites.html

I’ll close with a section from Human All Too Human in which Nietzsche discusses the Jews and advocates “the production and training of a European mixed race of the greatest possible strength” in which “the Jew is just as useful and desirable an ingredient as any other national remnant.”

I trust comment is not necessary on this extract and how it demonstrates that Nietzsche was very far from an anti-Semite:

Quote from: Nietzsche
EUROPEAN MAN AND THE DESTRUCTION OF NATIONALITIES. Commerce and industry, interchange of books and letters, the universality of all higher culture, the rapid changing of locality and landscape, and the present nomadic life of all who are not landowners, these circumstances necessarily bring with them a weakening, and finally a destruction of nationalities, at least of European nationalities; so that, in consequence of perpetual crossings, there must arise out of them all a mixed race, that of the European man. At present the isolation of nations, through the rise of national enmities, consciously or unconsciously counteracts this tendency; but nevertheless the process of fusing advances slowly, in spite of those occasional counter currents. This artificial nationalism is, however, as dangerous as was artificial Catholicism, for it is essentially an unnatural condition of extremity and martial law, which has been proclaimed by the few over the many, and requires artifice, lying, and force to maintain its reputation. It is not the interests of the many (of the peoples), as they probably say, but it is first of all the interests of certain princely dynasties, and then of certain commercial and social classes, which impel to this nationalism; once we have recognised this fact, we should just fearlessly style ourselves good Europeans and labour actively for the amalgamation of nations; in which efforts Germans may assist by virtue of their hereditary position as interpreters and intermediaries between nations. By the way, the great problem of the Jews only exists within the national States, inasmuch as their energy and higher intelligence, their intellectual and volitional capital, accumulated from generation to generation in tedious schools of suffering, must necessarily attain to universal supremacy here to an extent provocative of envy and hatred; so that the literary misconduct is becoming prevalent in almost all modern nations and all the more so as they again set up to be national of sacrificing the Jews as the scapegoats of all possible public and private abuses. So soon as it is no longer a question of the preservation or establishment of nations, but of the production and training of a European mixed race of the greatest possible strength, the Jew is just as useful and desirable an ingredient as any other national remnant Every nation, every individual, has unpleasant and even dangerous qualities, it is cruel to require that the Jew should be an exception. Those qualities may even be dangerous and frightful in a special degree in his case; and perhaps the young Stock Exchange Jew is in general the most repulsive invention of the human species. Nevertheless, in a general summing up, I should like to know how much must be excused in a nation which, not without blame on the part of all of us, has had the most mournful history of all nations, and to which we owe the most loving of men (Christ), the most upright of sages (Spinoza), the mightiest book, and the most effective moral law in the world? Moreover, in the darkest times of the Middle Ages, when Asiatic clouds had gathered darkly over Europe, it was Jewish free thinkers, scholars, and physicians who upheld the banner of enlightenment and of intellectual independence under the severest personal sufferings, and defended Europe against Asia; we owe it not least to their efforts that a more natural, more reasonable, at all events un mythical, explanation of the world was finally able to get the upper hand once more, and that the link of culture which now unites us with the enlightenment of Greco Roman antiquity has remained unbroken. If Christianity has done everything to orientalise the Occident, Judaism has assisted essentially in occidentalising it anew; which, in a certain sense, is equivalent to making Europe's mission and history a continuation of that of Greece.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
--William Blake

Offline WilliamThirteen

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2012, 10:09:58 am »
Thanks Los - a nice read over my morning coffee. Nietzsche's 'European Man' is still very much in today's headlines as we in the Eurozone debate the role and responsibilities of the EU government and its relation to the invidual states. Interestingly, because of the discrimination they experience in every country, the Sinti & Roma population have expressed a desire to be citizens of the EU while not being citizens of one of the individual EU states.
Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness. - Leviticus 19:29

Offline Philip Harris-Smith

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2012, 09:01:44 pm »
Isn't it taking things a little too far if we start to say that Crowley developed a political philosphy?  I mean to use an analogy we can look at Freud's theories and derive a political philosphy from them but the fact is Freud was not a Political Philiosopher.

Crowley in my view produced a wonderfull synthesis of Magickal praxis and religious philosophy.  I agree he made a number of interesting political philosophy observations and opinions, as any well educated person could.

Keith418's observations on those old podcasts I always found interesting.  Although his criticisms of OTO were largely meaningless to me because I have never been a member.  I would definately agree that Crowley was not even faintly in favour of 'liberal democracy'.  So to find people who eschew political correctness, pluralism, liberal democracy etc espousing Thelema... well if that is their True Will OK I suppose....

On the magickal journey people do things that seem absurd so perhaps its just best to let them get on with it.  However I repeat;  Crowley was not a political philosopher as such, so perhaps a pinch of salt here?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 09:12:15 pm by Philip Harris-Smith »

Offline Markus

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Re: Nietzsche
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2012, 09:13:18 pm »
Isn't it taking things a little too far if we start to say that Crowley developed a political philosphy? ...  However I repeat;  Crowley was not a political philosopher as such, so perhaps a pinch of salt here?

Crowley may not have developed a full system of political philosophy - that is correct. However, he had many political thoughts and opinions that, in their essence, changed little throughout his life. Unfortunately the book by Pasi, Aleister Crowley and the Temptation of Politics which deals with this in depth, has still not been released in English. Once it has, though, you ought to check it out; it's rather illuminating.

Markus
Contradictio est regula veri, non contradictio falsi. G.W.F. Hegel