Michael Bertiaux

[amadan-De]

pad631 - eD is 'playing' with you 
I suggest that to even the score you direct any future questions to him in your native language and demand that he only answers using the same..

PS. I agree entirely with you that gnosis is not limited to being "purely (a) sexual state" and had no trouble understanding your comment.  Confusingly, these days 'gnosis' seems to have become another word that is used with a wide range of different meanings.

[Azidonis]

Confusingly, these days 'gnosis' seems to have become another word that is used with a wide range of different meanings.

Why do you suppose it is that way?

[amadan-De]

lol
I blame Chaos Magick...

[einDoppelganger]

Its become a buzzword which can be dropped into any string of nonsense to give it the flavor of something pertinent, obscure, and perhaps worth deciphering. Much "Occult" writing has managed to become a pastiche of itself. It is either painfully purple prose or tired dry rehashing of Jungian analysis. I still maintain you can find more Magick in the books filed outside the occult section than in it. This is obviously a lesson embraced by Bertiaux, Grant, David Beth and others. All of these authors derive much from literary sources outside the "occult mainstream."

These voices often color the author's language. This is particularly apparent to me in the confluence of highbrow/lowbrow pulp stylings of M Bertiaux. He often masks the sublime in language which is at turns florid and other times deceptively banal (e.g "shadow stuff") .

Anyway, I think what we are seeing is a whole generation of authors who look to the voices of their predecessors and try and mimic the tone while lacking the content.

Who knows, maybe I'm just being too dismissive. Après nous, le déluge, and all...


Oh, and don't underestimate the power of  La Sorcellerie de Mon Petit Poney....

[amadan-De]

Its become a buzzword which can be dropped into any string of nonsense to give it the flavor of something pertinent, obscure, and perhaps worth deciphering. Much "Occult" writing has managed to become a pastiche of itself. It is either painfully purple prose or tired dry rehashing of Jungian analysis. I still maintain you can find more Magick in the books filed outside the occult section than in it. This is obviously a lesson embraced by Bertiaux, Grant, David Beth and others. All of these authors derive much from literary sources outside the "occult mainstream."

According to this page the concept of "the gnostic state, also known as gnosis" was introduced by Mr P. Carroll....
I'd maintain that one can (and should) find Magick anywhere.  Looking only where someone else tells you it is is needlessly limiting.
"There is nobody (or nothing) you can't learn something (however small) from."

These voices often color the author's language. This is particularly apparent to me in the confluence of highbrow/lowbrow pulp stylings of M Bertiaux. He often masks the sublime in language which is at turns florid and other times deceptively banal (e.g "shadow stuff") .

So something that could also be described as "either painfully purple prose or tired dry rehashing of Jungian (archetypes)" ?

Oh, and don't underestimate the power of  La Sorcellerie de Mon Petit Poney....

Trying hard not to overestimate it based on its omnipresence in certain internet-based communities...I'll see how it's doing in a year or ten before bending the knee though. (YGMV*)

*Your Gnosis May Vary

edit No I've stopped trying to keep up with your edits, this post relates to version 3.0 (or 4.0?) of yours /edit

[einDoppelganger]

Can you really attribute "gnosis" to PJ Carrol??? I see the Wiki but I can't imagine that the idea really originated there. Perhaps his coinage of "the gnostic state" but the idea of gnosis certainly predates the CM crowd.

So something that could also be described as "either painfully purple prose or tired dry rehashing of Jungian (archetypes)" ?

Well, I think of this "pulp" style as being indicative of Bertiaux's brand of esoteric writing. I think he forged an original voice with this fusion. Its far superior to similar styles found in a variety of the new "dark magick books ^TM" Thats what I am calling out - the tendency to find voices appropriated and terminology adopted with little of value to add to the mix. Bertiaux manages to blend everything from Kardec to Fritz Leiber creating an original approach.

edit No I've stopped trying to keep up with your edits, this post relates to version 3.0 (or 4.0?) of yours /edit

Yep, I never can commit till the timer runs out. Also, I always seem to want to add something and i hate double posts.


OMG see, I couldn't resist editing *again* I 'spose you are right, the "willy nilly" attribution of the word probably did originate with Carrol and co.
I do think there is something to be said for it's entrance into early 21st century pop-occultism as a buzzword alongside "talasmanic" "endpapers" and "slipcase". 

[Azidonis]

Can you really attribute "gnosis" to PJ Carrol??? I see the Wiki but I can't imagine that the idea really originated there. Perhaps his coinage of "the gnostic state" but the idea of gnosis certainly predates the CM crowd.

Yes. It looks like he just colored some peanut butter and got his name attached to it. But peanut butter itself existed long before Carrol.

[amadan-De]

Can you really attribute "gnosis" to PJ Carrol??? I see the Wiki but I can't imagine that the idea really originated there. Perhaps his coinage of "the gnostic state" but the idea of gnosis certainly predates the CM crowd.

My point exactly.  Funniest bit is that if you click the link on 'gnosis' in that Wiki about Chaos magic it takes you to its Wiki page which i) discusses it's use in pre-Christian Hellenic philosophy before going on to Judaeo-Christian usage all pre-CM and ii) does not mention P Carroll at all and only has a link to Chaos magic in the 'see also' section.

I do think there is something to be said for it's entrance into early 21st century pop-occultism as a buzzword alongside "talasmanic" "endpapers" and "slipcase". 

I think it's a shame that the 'buzzword' use is effectively obscuring a useful concept*, your other examples are much less open to misinterpretation/misuse/general confusion.
When I first read some of Mr Carroll's work in the 80s without having been told in advance how he was using the term I was simply left thinking "what-the-hell is he wittering about?".

*Though I suppose this could be seen as a return to a genuinely occult level of meaning below/beside the now quite open pop-culture marketing of magic and mysticism I'd see that as a retrograde step.

"New!! Coloured peanut butter - in eight exciting vibrational colours! - unlike anything ever before, really!"
Good call, Az.

[pad631]

pad631 - eD is 'playing' with you 
I suggest that to even the score you direct any future questions to him in your native language and demand that he only answers using the same..

PS. I agree entirely with you that gnosis is not limited to being "purely (a) sexual state" and had no trouble understanding your comment.  Confusingly, these days 'gnosis' seems to have become another word that is used with a wide range of different meanings.

^amadan-De
It seems we have some mutual positions about gnosis.Or maybe some experiences.
 And it is  quite normal.
 I stubbornly believe in some things I have learned many years ago, and that was not not from books.
 But why not to take in consideration some thoughts , at least theoretical, about that.
And expand the knowledge, and maybe in some future work, get it in experience,as insight
or maybe direct as gnosis about very same gnosis

In other things, I'm not too competitive, or similar. I'm satisfied whit answers I have got.
Maybe sometimes it burst from me , but really not often.
I think I had what i needed to, whit this. And thanks to all.

I have respect to M.Bertiaux, as I beleive many others have. In my case, it is not that I am close to him in any way. But from other sources that I believe in.

[AdoniaZanoni]

After reading this post below by Frater Barrabbas encounter and 'initiation' with Bertiaux, I really do not know what to say. Criticisms I faced is people who are into occultism are gullible, victims of charlatans, escapist of reality, and weak minded. After reading this I plan to reflect on those criticisms.

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2011/04/remembering-michael-bertiaux.html

I will continue to read Michael Bertiaux’s work and try to decipher his messy handwriting when time permits, even though I am not a practitioner or follower of Voudon. I always felt there are parallels between Western Ceremonial Magic and Voodoo; this is why I read his works. For example, the way the Brazilian faith of Quimbanda has sigils comparable to the Grimoire Verum as mentioned in Jake Stratton’s True Grimoire. Also Franz Bardon mentions methods in his Practice of Magical Evocations on spirits possessing parts of your body along with non-diabolical pacts. The ‘story’ of Peter Warlock and the Abramelin square another example.

http://fraterbarrabbas.blogspot.com/2012/04/very-busy-spring.html

I wanted to point out Frater Barrabbas has written new comments on this older blog articles about Michael Bertiaux. No comments on my behalf.

[pad631]

This figure frater B, or whatever he calls himself.He obviously does not expect any response from the other side, that is why he writes so freely.
If he would have expected such answers he would never have written such things.
He himself admitted to have fear of the magical powers.
I think he has mental problems, and that is the reason that gives him the rights to write this way.

I am writing this in my free will and the beliefs!

pad631

[uranus]

Hey since the OTOA-LCN site is down does anyone know of any other resources on getting the diagrams for the VGW? My computer crashed and all that stuff was lost!

[kidneyhawk]

Uranus,

I am the present contact for OTOA-LCN and will be happy to help get you the files with the missings diagrams. Please pm me with your contact info!

Kyle 

[uranus]

Kyle... you should already have my private contact information... :-P Jason C. LOL