Author Topic: Thelema, a basis for human society?  (Read 22900 times)

Offline Camlion

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #60 on: January 02, 2011, 09:56:36 pm »
Quote from: "bazelek"


However, I do think that the participants here are mostly Thelemites. And that we may consider the exchanges on Lashtal representative of the success of the "Law of Thelema" in a society, albeit virtual. Virile exchange is one thing, and there have been some wonderful posts over the years, but bigotry, rudeness and cynicism (all suppressed forms of violence) exist here as they do everywhere else. Its no kindergarden...

My point (again) is that what has been exchanged here is no better than anywhere else on the internet. If anything, as has been noted, many good quality participants have stopped posting... and if it hasn't worked in this tiny microcosm, it is hard to see how it might in the real world.

bazelek


Let's make a couple of things clear.

I know of many, many members who have stopped posting here, or never started, because the site contains a strong element of material totally unrelated to its subject matter, Aleister Crowley, except by the very flimsiest possible threads of association, usually involving entirely different and contradictory sets of ideas passing under the same names.

The idea that this site, or any website on the internet, represents a laboratory microcosm of the real world is absurd. I have fairly extensive experience with real Thelema* in action in the real world and I can assure you that it is other than what is seen here on this or any other website. This statement is not meant to detract in any way from the value of lashtal.com, or from Paul's very commendable intentions and considerable contributions to the site's subject matter.

*Thelema as AC understood it, the Thelema enabling ongoing natural course correction in both personal and global spheres, on all planes of existence, including the mundane material world in which we also find ourselves manifest.

Offline ApeOfTheApeOfThot

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #61 on: January 02, 2011, 10:38:23 pm »
Quote from: "Patriarch156"
Quote from: "ApeOfTheApeOfThot"
Which Thelema?  Rabalais' or Crowleys'?  (hic)


The fact that Crowley relegated Rabelais to an antecedent that prophesied his coming and the advent of the New Aeon makes your question double absurd.

Finally. considering that Crowley was in fact wrong about him and that Rabelais wrote a satire criticising the decadence of the abbeys of his time and did not mean his work to serve as the foundation of an ideal society or even new philosophy (let alone as a prophetic statement of Crowley's coming), setting Rabelais up as an alternative to Crowley is triple absurd. Any such ideal society or new philosophy would be an wholly new invention by yourself and not Rabelais.


I'm double and triple absurd at the same time!  I'm freaking better than chocolate!

Offline ApeOfTheApeOfThot

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #62 on: January 02, 2011, 10:50:49 pm »
Now that I'm bigger than chocolate, I should probably engage in some sort of modestly arranged self-flaggelation about my true place in the universe which is actually kinda low on the totem pole.  

Hey Mom!  I'm bigger than chocolate!

Offline ApeOfTheApeOfThot

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #63 on: January 02, 2011, 10:55:16 pm »
Now that I'm bigger than chocolate I feel in my heart that I should lead you all into the new millinium.  Come to my socially responsible compound located in Guiana which is in South America.  I have much to teach you.  And chores.

Offline bazelek

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #64 on: January 02, 2011, 11:44:00 pm »
Quote from: "Camlion"
I have fairly extensive experience with real Thelema* in action in the real world and I can assure you that it is other than what is seen here on this or any other website.


I do not doubt this for a moment and I wish you every success with it, but it does not detract from my point, as I'm sure you know.

And I sincerely think Paul would welcome a bit more Thelemic fraternity here rather than some of the cynical and inflammatory posts that often mar participation in this otherwise excellent resource.

bazelek

Offline Shiva

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Re: lashtal = society?
« Reply #65 on: January 03, 2011, 01:01:53 am »
Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do not deny you the right to disagree with Crowley and it is all the same to me, but your interpretation of AL remains your own and not mine and does not reflect as I understand Crowley's own take on Thelema as a Way of Life.
Thank you. But I was not disagreeing with Crowley or anyone else. I was simply playing the other side of the game in response to statements that went beyond Do What Thou Wilt and said what was allowed - that's sorta like putting Will in a Box.

Just because I listed a bunch of aggressively-phrased quotes from AL doesn't mean I'm advocating violence - or anything other than Do Thy Will on an individual basis - birds of a feather will flock together. And then they'll probably argue over how to pave the streets.

I know what Crowley said: In case of a difference of opinion, we're supposed "to fight over it." The only thing he suggested was that "manners be improved" (very loose quote from memory).

Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do thank you however for demonstrating nicely what my point was: there is no agreement on what the solution is.
If we gather a bunch of (Thelemic) folk and present ANY problem, then I'll bet there will be no agreement on anything. I would suggest that you are correct.

Quote from: "Camlion"
The idea that this site, or any website on the internet, represents a laboratory microcosm of the real world is absurd.
Well, look, there's this thing called the Holographic Universe wherein everything is reflected in everything else. So from that viewpoint, this site (with all of its differing opinions) is a reflection of the real world (with all of its differing opinions). But to make any sense out of that reflection, one's viewpoint has to be fairly well elevated.

In practical terms (you know - daily living and earning one's bread), I would be hesitant to base any worldly decisions on a consensus drawn from lashtal's forums and polls. I would suggest that you are correct.

--------------

Now that we (well, "I") have pronounced everyone correct (except for the Ape who made three [3] posts in a row), we can sit down and form our government. :wink:
93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion

Offline Patriarch156

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Re: lashtal = society?
« Reply #66 on: January 03, 2011, 01:21:53 am »
Quote from: "Shiva"
Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do not deny you the right to disagree with Crowley and it is all the same to me, but your interpretation of AL remains your own and not mine and does not reflect as I understand Crowley's own take on Thelema as a Way of Life.
Thank you. But I was not disagreeing with Crowley or anyone else. I was simply playing the other side of the game in response to statements that went beyond Do What Thou Wilt and said what was allowed - that's sorta like putting Will in a Box.

Just because I listed a bunch of aggressively-phrased quotes from AL doesn't mean I'm advocating violence - or anything other than Do Thy Will on an individual basis - birds of a feather will flock together. And then they'll probably argue over how to pave the streets.

I know what Crowley said: In case of a difference of opinion, we're supposed "to fight over it." The only thing he suggested was that "manners be improved" (very loose quote from memory).

Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do thank you however for demonstrating nicely what my point was: there is no agreement on what the solution is.
If we gather a bunch of (Thelemic) folk and present ANY problem, then I'll bet there will be no agreement on anything. I would suggest that you are correct.

Quote from: "Camlion"
The idea that this site, or any website on the internet, represents a laboratory microcosm of the real world is absurd.
Well, look, there's this thing called the Holographic Universe wherein everything is reflected in everything else. So from that viewpoint, this site (with all of its differing opinions) is a reflection of the real world (with all of its differing opinions). But to make any sense out of that reflection, one's viewpoint has to be fairly well elevated.

In practical terms (you know - daily living and earning one's bread), I would be hesitant to base any worldly decisions on a consensus drawn from lashtal's forums and polls. I would suggest that you are correct.

--------------

Now that we (well, "I") have pronounced everyone correct (except for the Ape who made three [3] posts in a row), we can sit down and form our government. :wink:


Given that your Bohmian holographic universe is true this would not mean that it reflected upon the Thelemic solution success or failure at all, rather it would mean that this forum reflects society at large ;)

Regarding my point about the Law of Thelema as a way of life, here is what Crowley notes concerning this:

"There are also various other cases where the free choice of the individual must be restricted insofar as that unhampered choice might interfere with the equal rights of others." -Liber CXI

Here is a quote from Crowley concerning reforming legislature so that it reflects the Law of Thelema in an unpublished paper titled "Considerations of an Open Letter to Labour:

"The laws shall be remodeled fundamentally on First Principles. They shal be simplified to the utmost: the only offence is to restrict the Will of another, but this may be done in many ways and degrees. Thus, murder restricts the primary will of a man to live, while slander restricts only that to be known accurately by his fellows: the penalties must differ accordingly."

The same paper makes it clear that threats of violence is also included. And here is one from the same paper covering the function of the Police in his Thelemic state:

"The police shall interfere with civil liberty in two cases only: firstly, when any individual demands redress against aggression of any sort – including the bullying of boys and girls by fanatical parents. Secondly, when the peace is menaced by bands of persons associated for the purpose of imposing their ideas by force upon their neighbours."

The State as founded on the Law of Thelema as understood by Crowley therefore has largely the function of a Nightwatchman state. It is there to protect our rights in the case where others attempts to suppress the liberty of an individual without his acceptance of the same..

Offline Hecate

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #67 on: January 03, 2011, 10:03:38 am »
Greetings!

Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do think you are however a bit optimistic as to the actual interest in the Law of Thelema (as opposed to Crowley's person and a distorted version of his occultism that has attempted to remove it from Thelema). While, largely through the efforts of the O.T.O., it is larger than it ever has. It remains, in practical terms, as far from having any REAL influence on the world today as it had during Crowley's time.

Perhaps it is just me but I think that, although the current influence of Thelema is not exactly the one O.T.O. would like to see, Crowley’s imprint is very deeply impressed in the modern thought. It resembles the way a fragrance starts permeating the air after being released from the bottle. You can’t put your finger on it however it has altered the composition of the air we breathe forever, thus enriching the lives of all.

Quote from: "Shiva"
Quote from: "Patriarch156"
I do thank you however for demonstrating nicely what my point was: there is no agreement on what the solution is.
If we gather a bunch of (Thelemic) folk and present ANY problem, then I'll bet there will be no agreement on anything. I would suggest that you are correct.

Well, Shiva, I really hope this won’t happen in the “Save the Abbey of Thelema” n.p.o.’s case, where we are supposed to take all decisions unanimously.  :wink:  Not everyone is a Thelemite there, but still...

Perhaps I appear to be too optimistic here but, from my point of view, knowing and doing one’s true Will within a team do not imply sterile disagreements and, therefore, games of power, but Synthesis and Harmony. There will be different points of view, for sure, but I believe that, if everyone trusts his/her own guidance, all the pieces of the puzzle will fall into place and they’ll create a whole new reality where every single aspect will be equally expressed.

I’ve seen it happening in a small group and I believe it is an absolutely feasible goal, although the members of such a group should dare to let go of any thought forms/frames and let themselves free to work on new lines of manifestation. That is to say, they would have agreed on a common purpose, but most likely they’d have to let go of any bias about the way things should be done (Spirit has many ways, doesn’t it?)  So it seems that realizing the True Will as a collective should lead the group to a state of continuous evolution, as dialectics would have it. At least this is how I understand it.


Regards
Hecate
"In the true religion there is no sect, therefore take heed that thou blaspheme not the name by which another knoweth his God; for if thou do this thing in Jupiter thou wilt blaspheme HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Heh HB:Yod and in Osiris HB:Heh HB:Vau HB:Shin HB:Heh HB:Yod . "

Offline Patriarch156

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #68 on: January 03, 2011, 10:58:57 am »
Quote from: "Hecate"
Perhaps it is just me but I think that, although the current influence of Thelema is not exactly the one O.T.O. would like to see, Crowley’s imprint is very deeply impressed in the modern thought. It resembles the way a fragrance starts permeating the air after being released from the bottle. You can’t put your finger on it however it has altered the composition of the air we breathe forever, thus enriching the lives of all.


Naturally I agree with your latter point and I think this is the kind of influence the O.T.O. actually would like to see. My point was merely stating that Thelema is as far from having a direct influence on the world at large as it was under Crowley (i.e. we are not much better off than under him). :)

Offline Shiva

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Thelema
« Reply #69 on: January 03, 2011, 02:00:03 pm »
Quote from: "Hecate"
Crowley’s imprint is very deeply impressed in the modern thought. It resembles the way a fragrance starts permeating the air after being released from the bottle.
Crowley appeared, had his experiences, wrote some books, impressed the aethyrs accordingly, and died. He had not really made much of an outward effect on the world.

A substance "invented" by Doctor Hofmann then got into the hands of Doctor Leary who experimented with it in conjunction with Crowley's practices. Leary, like an extroverted Ringmaster, wrote his own book, had his own experiences, announced that he was "carrying on much of the work that he [Crowley] started," and proceeded to advocate the elevation of mass human consciousness via legal, modern chemistry.

THAT got the ball rolling a bit faster. Of course, if there's one thing the (Osirian) Establishment DOES NOT WANT, it's the masses exploring the nature of reality, so they banned the chemical and locked up the Ringmaster. But it was too late; millions of people had taken that entryway into expanded consciousness and "modern thought" had been subtly changed forever.

We all know that Achad was the "one" who followed Crowley and discovered the key [AL], but in another respect, Leary also followed Crowley and expounded upon a subject that that altered mass consciousness ("wine and strange drugs").

Each of us has the opportunity to follow and reveal some aspect of the central teachings. Hopefully, you won't do much jail time.

It is amusing to note that Establishments everywhere are generally opposed to substances that open the doors of perception and LSD, along with mescaline and psilocybin, have been widely illegalized. The amusing part is that "Ecstasy," another illegal, synthetic key to the mysteries, is now being used by the United States government to successfully treat PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder].

Quote from: "Hecate"
I really hope this won’t happen in the “Save the Abbey of Thelema” case, where we are supposed to take all decisions unanimously.  :wink:  Not everyone is a Thelemite there, but still... Perhaps I appear to be too optimistic here but, from my point of view, knowing and doing one’s true Will within a team do not imply sterile disagreements and, therefore, games of power ...
Agreed. If you get a bunch of (more or less "normal") people together for a project, there will generally be disagreements. But if the participants are of a sufficiently high level of initiation, then the harmonious synchronization can work "miracles" - even on the physical plane.

Quote from: "Hecate"
So it seems that realizing the True Will as a collective should lead the group to a state of continuous evolution...
A "collective Will" cannot be developed until ALL the participants are doing their own individual version of "their" Will.

A group of people like the Save the Abbey coalition, which requires unanimous approval, sounds pretty much like pure communism. On the other hand, a "strongman" rules by dictatorship. Crowley described the OTO system as a type of "Aristocratic Communism," which is somewhere in-between these two extremes. In fact, the successful completion of many "impossible" projects usually seems to contain three elements:
(1) There is someone in the background who is unattached to the results, who is in an elevated state of consciousness, who sets the project in motion and watches.
(2) There is some one (ONE) who leads.
(3) There are a few or many people who willingly and whole-heartedly take up their assigned task.

Gee-wiz (a conjunction of Genitor-Wizard), that almost looks like a manifestation of "therein there are but three grades."


And you know what? Once the project gets under way, if it goes well, everyone does their part and in the end it becomes something to write about - because it was impossible! :D

Quote from: "Patriarch156"
Given that your Bohmian holographic universe is true this would not mean that it reflected upon the Thelemic solution success or failure at all, rather it would mean that this forum reflects society at large
I don't know this Bohm - is it a person?

The holographic arrangement of the various levels of existence is a "given" for anyone who has directly perceived that fact. You are correct when you say such a reflection would merely be of society - and NOT the solution; after all, a reflection is just a reflection and not a solution. Solutions require Magick (change).

Idly speculating, it would seem that lashtal is a reflection of a portion of the "Thelemic" persons using the www, and that is a reflection of advanced people in general, and they are a reflection of the larger society - layers upon layers, levels within levels; probably many more than I have listed.

Quote from: "Patriarch156"
Regarding my point about the Law of Thelema as a way of life, here is what Crowley notes concerning this: [quotes follow ending with the statement]: "The State as founded on the Law of Thelema as understood by Crowley therefore has largely the function of a Nightwatchman state. It is there to protect our rights in the case where others attempts to suppress the liberty of an individual without his acceptance of the same."
Yes, I have previously seen these quotes. I would agree with those principles and with your two-sentence summary.
93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion

Offline Camlion

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Re: Thelema
« Reply #70 on: January 03, 2011, 06:18:23 pm »
Quote from: "Shiva"

A substance "invented" by Doctor Hofmann then got into the hands of Doctor Leary who experimented with it in conjunction with Crowley's practices. Leary, like an extroverted Ringmaster, wrote his own book, had his own experiences, announced that he was "carrying on much of the work that he [Crowley] started," and proceeded to advocate the elevation of mass human consciousness via legal, modern chemistry.

THAT got the ball rolling a bit faster. Of course, if there's one thing the (Osirian) Establishment DOES NOT WANT, it's the masses exploring the nature of reality, so they banned the chemical and locked up the Ringmaster. But it was too late; millions of people had taken that entryway into expanded consciousness and "modern thought" had been subtly changed forever.

We all know that Achad was the "one" who followed Crowley and discovered the key [AL], but in another respect, Leary also followed Crowley and expounded upon a subject that that altered mass consciousness ("wine and strange drugs").

Each of us has the opportunity to follow and reveal some aspect of the central teachings. Hopefully, you won't do much jail time.

It is amusing to note that Establishments everywhere are generally opposed to substances that open the doors of perception and LSD, along with mescaline and psilocybin, have been widely illegalized. The amusing part is that "Ecstasy," another illegal, synthetic key to the mysteries, is now being used by the United States government to successfully treat PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder].


Agreed with regard to props due to Tim Leary - but note that one is as likely to find very poor and unsafe Ecstasy as safe Ecstasy presently. The government has no such difficulty, no doubt.

Quote from: "Shiva"

The holographic arrangement of the various levels of existence is a "given" for anyone who has directly perceived that fact. You are correct when you say such a reflection would merely be of society - and NOT the solution; after all, a reflection is just a reflection and not a solution. Solutions require Magick (change).


Yes. If it were only as simple and easy as a website, not that this website is probably simple or easy from Paul's perspective.

Offline Shiva

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Re: Thelema
« Reply #71 on: January 04, 2011, 12:14:47 am »
Quote from: "Camlion"
... note that one is as likely to find very poor and unsafe Ecstasy as safe Ecstasy presently. The government has no such difficulty, no doubt.
Yes. That's because it's ILLEGAL and there's not necessarily any quality control on the black side of alchemy. I mentioned that governmental use only as an amusing quote - I am not advocating the personal use of Ecstasy (the chemical) because it's been banned, and there are research chemical (RC) analogues that are LEGAL and do the same thing. And because they're LEGAL, RC's are quality-controlled (usually 99.8%+). I'm in the process of writing that book now ... so let's get back to the topic before we get the thread locked, our accounts closed and our fires put out ...

The original question/topic of this thread was: "Do you agree with Aleister Crowley's understanding of the Law of Thelema, as a basis for human society?"

Seventy-eight percent (78%) of the voters in the associated Poll currently (that's right now - who knows what tomorrow may bring?) think the answer is "Yes." Can any of us take that to the bank or purchase stocks based on its validity?

I think Thelema, and AC's understanding of it, are suitable for basing society upon. I also think that those "initiated kings" mentioned earlier are going to have to arise first to set it in motion. I hope "initiated" means "has attained to Understanding" and not merely "run through a ceremony."

93, Shiva
93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion

Offline MichaelStaley

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #72 on: January 04, 2011, 01:18:54 am »
Quote from: "Camlion"
I know of many, many members who have stopped posting here, or never started, because the site contains a strong element of material totally unrelated to its subject matter, Aleister Crowley, except by the very flimsiest possible threads of association, usually involving entirely different and contradictory sets of ideas passing under the same names.

There are some threads and postings on this website which don't interest me, and which I simply read and ignore. It seems odd to me - to express it politely - that some elect to move away from this site because they are repelled by threads and posts not to their liking.

This website is dedicated not only to the study of Crowley's life and work, but also to his impact and legacy. Some of that impact and legacy may not be to your liking, but since (fortunately in my view) you don't own this website it may well be that you will have to like it or lump it. You can always, of course, take up the matter with Paul.

Best wishes,

Michael.
"It's all in the egg".

Offline Mahakala77

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #73 on: January 04, 2011, 01:48:32 am »
Concerning the question...

Do you agree with Aleister Crowley's understanding of the Law of Thelema, as a basis for human society?

...there is the view that 'basis' of human society is something of a Gordian knot, because no 'society' can ever truly succeed or work in any lasting fashion in the greatest sense. (To wax esoteric for a moment, we might say any 'society in this human plane/dimension of egoic separation'). Some systems will make more sense or be more functional than others -- in that sense AC's Thelema may be as good as any -- but the path of transformation/awakening has been always recognized as an inherently individual process for good reason. 'Seekers' can indeed live communally (or share consciousness via online communities such as this one) but there is no Noah's Ark to self-realization. There is the ideal -- Shamballa or Shangri-la or Avalon -- but these have no physical existence for good reason. Any human society involves organization and hierarchy, and spiritual truths do not respond well to organization or hierarchy (hence the collapse of so many spiritual communities, or their decay into mere monastic institutions).

We 'chop wood and carry water from the well', and we do this together as best (responsibly) as we can (society) but each has a unique Will and path to realization. In that sense, all society/community is a mere appearance only.

Offline Camlion

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Thelema, a basis for human society?
« Reply #74 on: January 04, 2011, 02:31:31 am »
Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
There are some threads and postings on this website which don't interest me, and which I simply read and ignore.


That sounds like perfectly good practice, Michael, but instead you posted as follows:

Quote from: "MichaelStaley"
This is all pie-in-the-sky stuff. Like the articles in the late 1960s about how society might be organised after the revolution.

Why are we worrying our pretty little heads in speculating how society might be after the Thelemic revolution?

Best wishes,

Michael.


Quote from: "MichaelStaley"

Personally I couldn't care less whether or not Crowley's understanding of Thelema is a basis for society. Why don't you just get on with it in your own life first and foremost, and let the rest work out as it will? Why on earth should your question be other than the last word in tedium?


And today...

Quote from: "MichaelStaley"

This website is dedicated not only to the study of Crowley's life and work, but also to his impact and legacy. Some of that impact and legacy may not be to your liking, but since (fortunately in my view) you don't own this website it may well be that you will have to like it or lump it. You can always, of course, take up the matter with Paul.


If you are referring to Kenneth Grant, I certainly acknowledge the legitimate connection to Crowley's impact and legacy. I'm not at all sure, however, where Kenneth Grant ends and Michael Staley begins in that picture.

In the interest of clarity, would you mind posting the statement from Grant published in Starfire that is referred to earlier in the thread? It seems to be relevant to the topic, and to be in stark contrast to your own rather outspoken apathy toward it.