Author Topic: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question  (Read 8034 times)

Offline Thoki

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I will state once more I am a new student.
I have came across people saying the the book is known to summon things on its own?
Is it "safe"  ::)
I could not find this question previously posted. :o
"All observation disturbs reality"

Offline Shiva

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2012, 04:13:05 am »
Is it "safe"  ::)

Generally speaking, it is safe - BUT things have been known to happen! Crowley said a person should not even have this book in his (her) possession unless they are intending to actually perform the operation.

In terms of the talismans, if one goes playing around with these (through idle curiosity or intentional use), well, "things" do tend to happen. Like, these goodies are probably the strongest doo-dads around - in terms of causing "phenomena." The phenomena are usually unpleasant.
93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion

Offline Thoki

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2012, 04:17:25 am »
Thank You Shiva
I am currently doing some of my "Recommend Reading" and the tittle caught my eye. 8)
Perhaps I will save this one for a future day. 
"All observation disturbs reality"

Offline goldcrow

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2012, 04:15:13 pm »
Thoki,
You say you are a new student. My strong advice to you is not to overload yourself. Take things in easy stages and do not move on until you have mastered each stage. There is no harm in reading around subjects (an excellent idea), but understanding will only come from combining theory with first hand practical experience. Do not persist with anything that you feel uncomfortable about, and do not be too quick to believe or accept everything you read, or are told. Think for yourself! And - Patience ad Perseverance!!
In my view Abramelin is not for the raw beginner. I am not sure what you would achieve in reading it, other than satisfying curiosity, and I strongly suspect without being patronizing that you may not understand very much of it. Many with a good deal of experience would readily admit they are struggling!!
In general one should never play around with any type of ritual magick, it is a serious subject!
The right and the wrong things are basically what is right for you, and what you feel at ease with.
Crowley wrote Magick in Theory and Practice for beginners. In my opinion if you thoroughly understand this work you will be far from a beginner! However, I do think that it is an excellent starting place to study Crowley. (The OTO edition of Book 4 is a really good book that will be useful to you right the way through your magickal career, so to speak. This edition - beware of rip-off fekes - has a super set of tables of correspondences, masses of useful notes, and effectively is several books all thrown  together.) Book 4 will also provide a good insight into Crowleys's theology and philosophy. The OTO edition contains the fourth part of Book 4, 'Thelema', which is essentially a good portion of the Equinox of The Gods. Another excellent work is Magic Without Tears, wherein Crowley is unusually open and straightforward. Each question is answered separately, and each is pretty well stand alone, so you can 'dip into the bits; that interest you without having to plough through a large tome and suffer from a surfeit of information!
I suggest a good basic primer to start with. Practice, understand and become thoroughly familiar with the basics before moving on. You will be amazed how effective some basic, apparently very simple, techniques can be. The Lesser Banishing Ritual of The Pentagram is a good example, because the techniques you will learn should provide a solid foundation for further work. Donald Kraig's Twelve Lessons in Magic is a work I have found helpful. It certainly clarifies some of Crowleys more obscure passages!
Some people find it very easy to learn quickly and make rapid progress, others take longer. There is no time limit, work at your own pace. Everyone comes across a stumbling block sooner or later. Stick with it!!
If there is a good group within access I suggest you make contact, as advice from those with genuine experience is invaluable. If they are any good, they will tell you the things that are not written in the books, the things only gained from first hand experience. Again, be careful not to get drawn into a dodgy set up or a scam - there are a lot around. Just take it easy and tread carefully, and you should be OK! If you follow the simple basic rules you should come to no harm!
Goldcrow

Offline N.O.X

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2012, 06:13:08 pm »
The right and the wrong things are basically what is right for you, and what you feel at ease with.

Putting aside the sloppy structuring of that nonsensical sentence for a moment, I disagree.  Doing the practices one is "at ease" or comfortable with, in the very beginning, may be useful to "get your feet wet" with the basics of ritual magick.  Before long, though, one needs to step outside their "comfort zone" in order to change and evolve.  An example: if one were to evoke real, Primal fear (There are many ways to do this.  This is something each person must figure out for themselves.) then conquer it, what else is there to be afraid of?  Nothing?  Nope! (Verily, For Who is there to be afraid?  NOT I!  I am NOTz!) 

'What you are feeling is Primal Fear, Relish It!', quoted from a show I enjoy by a character whose name I don't remember.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 09:49:26 pm by lashtal »
"He who is illuminated with the Darkest Shadow will shine with the Brightest Light"-Andrew Chumbley

Offline amadan-De

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2012, 09:17:49 pm »
Crowley said a person should not even have this book in his (her) possession unless they are intending to actually perform the operation.

[whimsical] Given that AC was refering to the Mathers' translation with all its problems are we to consider the more recent Dehn and Guth version to be more, less or equally risky?[/whimsical]
Above all remember this: that magic belongs as much to the heart as to the head and everything which is done, should be done from love or joy or righteous anger.

amadan-De: butterfly, God's fool.
Sometimes applied to giddy, foolish children.

Offline Los

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2012, 10:34:02 pm »
[whimsical] Given that AC was refering to the Mathers' translation with all its problems are we to consider the more recent Dehn and Guth version to be more, less or equally risky?[/whimsical]
I believe Crowley was referring to the magic squares having the power to cause unexpected effects on the magician who owns the book. Hence, he advised that unless one intends to do the operation, one should not even keep the book around, lest one of those squares causes some kind of "effect." So, assuming that the squares are the same in each translation, it wouldn't matter which translation it was -- each, according to this idea, would have the potential for "risk."

Of course, the idea that owning a book could cause something like that to happen is a ridiculously silly idea.
"Then Los appeard in all his power
In the Sun he appeard descending before
My face in fierce flames in my double sight
Twas outward a Sun: inward Los in his might."
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Offline Shiva

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2012, 04:25:50 am »
Given that AC was refering to the Mathers' translation with all its problems are we to consider the more recent Dehn and Guth version to be more, less or equally risky

It is not the book or the text that is the source of the "problems." It is the talismans. Any version that includes the talismans is therefore "suspect," I would guess.
93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion

Offline 666tsaeb

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2012, 07:01:00 am »
Since talismanic magick is not unlike the use of a voodoo doll, it falls into the category of sympathetic magick. As such the practitioner would have need to know of the talismans location and its potential usage before his subconscious can take hold and begin to manifest the reactionary phenomenon. I doubt mere possession of the book would have any effect whatsoever lacking such information. Given that the individual did indeed peruse the book, affix upon one particular sigil, and know its powers;  AC’s statement below would then have relevance:

"Wherever sympathetic magic occurs in its pure unadulterated form, it is assumed that in nature one event follows another necessarily and invariably without the intervention of any spiritual or personal agency."
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Offline goldcrow

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2012, 11:54:39 am »
Apologies for the iffy sentence, but you clearly picked up on my meaning. Firstly, I thoroughly agree with you, BUT NOT for a raw beginner. Yes, one should push the boundaries as far as possible on occasion, and, indeed, that may well occur whether one likes it or not. However, I believe very strongly that one should learn and thoroughly understand a ritual to the point at which you do not have to think about what comes next, or how to actually carry out a particular action, before pushing the boundaries too far. That is to be in a position whereby you can put all your concentration into achieving the objective of the ritual, and, if you like, in performing it. I believe one should always be in control and be in a position to deal with any problems that may arise. I have had situations whereby I was extremely glad I had the knowledge and experience to extricate myself. Clearly knowledge and understanding comes through practice, and through building on secure foundations. All I am really saying is learn to walk before you run. Once you can run it is up to you how fast you want to go, bearing in mind your own limitations. I am all for taking chances and frequently push the boundaries in life, but I prefer to minimize the risks if at all possible!!  (notwithstanding the mad moments which add to the fun of life)

A number of people with a great deal of skill and experience have come unstuck with Abramelin. Crowley himself struggled. I still say, leave this for later on when you have more experience.

Hopefully, you will accept the proferred olive branch.

I suspect we might be starting to delve into matters which are not appropriate for this particular forum.

Thoki, as you can see there is more than one point of view on this topic, so choose your own path.


Offline Thoki

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2012, 05:06:27 pm »
I figured the subject would be open for debate. 
After personal thinking on the subject I did decide to save this one for a bit.
Even though it is in the "recommended reading".
My path is actually leaning towards a strong yoga basis before I pursue anything else.
After reading "Eight lectures in yoga" I am very excited to read "Raja Yoga"  8)
"All observation disturbs reality"

Offline darkflame

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2012, 06:20:19 pm »
Raja Yoga by Swami Vivekananda is great, I was studying and practising that text in India in 1995. Good to supplement with Arthur Avalon's stuff too.

Offline Thoki

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2012, 06:26:06 pm »
Cool, I will check Avalon out! 

"All observation disturbs reality"

Offline amadan-De

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2012, 08:07:46 pm »
Re:
...assuming that the squares are the same in each translation, it wouldn't matter which translation it was -- each, according to this idea, would have the potential for "risk".
and
It is not the book or the text that is the source of the "problems." It is the talismans. Any version that includes the talismans is therefore "suspect," I would guess.

Ah, but the squares are not the same in number or content and that was my point.
Quote from: Wikipedia
...there are 242 word squares in Mathers' translation, while the original German has 251. Most of the squares in Mathers are not completely filled in, and those that are differ markedly from the German sources.  . . .  In the Dehn version... (a)ll 251 of the word squares are completely filled in.
source

Mildly surprised that such erudite scholars have not had a peak at the 'new' version though you are both probably past that stage I guess.:)  (Not like you to 'assume' Los, always risky that ;))
I am afraid that I am not presently able to access either version so I can't give any more detail than that above.
The matter of the 'reality' of the "risk" of ownership is probably one of individual and unique affect and so outside the scope of useful general discussion. 
Above all remember this: that magic belongs as much to the heart as to the head and everything which is done, should be done from love or joy or righteous anger.

amadan-De: butterfly, God's fool.
Sometimes applied to giddy, foolish children.

Offline Shiva

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Re: The Book of the Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage Question
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2012, 08:45:21 pm »
The matter of the 'reality' of the "risk" of ownership is probably one of individual and unique affect and so outside the scope of useful general discussion.

Agreed. For "general discussion," I would say, "sometimes" these square talismans are said to have an unusual effect, the truth of which may be objective or subjective.

On another note, let me remind you ("you" in general) that the Abramelin operation was upgraded in Liber 418, the 8th Aethyr, where it says:

"And unto him that understandeth at last do I deliver the secrets of truth in such wise that the least of the little children of the light may run to the knees of the mother and be brought to understand.
   And thus shall he do who will attain unto the mystery of the knowledge and conversation of his Holy Guardian Angel:
   First, let him prepare a chamber ...
"
[detailed instructions then follow - 2 or 3 pages worth].

It more or less ends with:
"And at the end of the ninety-one days he shall return into the world, and there shall he perform that work to which the Angel shall have appointed him.
   And more than this it is not necessary to say, for his Angel shall have entreated him kindly, and showed him in what manner he may be most perfectly involved
."

There is no mention of squares and/or talismans, ecept for maybe one part:

"And he shall engrave with his own hand upon a plate of gold the Holy Sevenfold Table, or the Holy Twelvefold Table, or some particular device.  And it shall be foursquare within a circle, and the circle shall be winged, and he shall attach it about his forehead by a ribbon of blue silk."

I have heard of no "problems" associated with the 8th Aethyr. It's cool.

93.'.
I Am not a Rajah or a Voyeur
I Am Shiva the destroyer
I destroy illusion