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Requests - Crowleys Ashes
badfreddy - Dec 10, 2006 - 05:20 PM
Post subject: Crowleys Ashes
I dont know if this subject has been coverd before on here, so fogive any repetition.
I know Crowley was cremated but what happend to the ashes?
Usually there is a paque or marker somewhere to denote the burial of ashes, unless they are scattered.
I heard that Crowley's ashes were sent to followers in the United States.
And also some where scattered at Boleskine Burial ground.
Iv even heard it said that Kenneth Anger owns an urn of his ashes, but Angers tales are often apocraphal.
Are there any records?
adonia444 - Dec 10, 2006 - 05:35 PM
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Well, I didnt want to announce this but...I just bought Crowleys ashes off of ebay for only 50 bucks! AND they came with an authentic Crowley ring even! I know, unbelievable eh?
Alright, alright, heres what I know with regards to Crowleys ashes. Not much. The stories are prolific, shocking i'm sure. Paul, Lutz, Michael Staley..i'm sure they would have something more "stable" to add to this. To blather on about other myths seems rather pointless so i'll leave it to the historians in the group to give you a better idea of which way to lean.
93 93/93
Kym
badfreddy - Dec 10, 2006 - 05:45 PM
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lol ebay would suprise me, you know that right now im making little urns with crowley face on!
There was a Crowley bottle opener on there the other day, what next? Crowley mugs no doubt.
lashtal - Dec 10, 2006 - 06:00 PM
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New Jersey...
Base of tree...
Tree's location no longer known.
badfreddy - Dec 10, 2006 - 06:07 PM
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New Jersey, How come?
kidneyhawk - Dec 10, 2006 - 06:15 PM
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Quote: ›
what next? Crowley mugs no doubt.
LOL!!! Well, I for one, would gladly purchase one-even at an exorbitant price! The perfect vessel to drink my coffee "yogin-wise," of course!
adonia444 - Dec 10, 2006 - 06:23 PM
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Quote: ›
New Jersey...
Base of tree...
Tree's location no longer known.
Yes, this is the one i'm more familiar with. I couldn't remember the state though which is why I didnt mention it. LOL. Shame the trees whereabouts is now unknown. And ironic that Crowley was buried in Jersey. 
Thanks for the information Paul, that would have bugged me all day. Those small forgotten details can really get to me. haha.
93 93/93
Kym
MichaelStaley - Dec 10, 2006 - 06:58 PM
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badfreddy wrote: › New Jersey, How come?
Crowley's ashes were sent to Karl Germer, who was living there at the time. He buried them under a tree. Several years later, when the Gemers were moving home, Karl could not find them.
Some maintain that Karl let slip to the cognoscenti that Sascha Germer smashed the urn against a tree. In the interests of fairness, it should be pointed out that Sascha Germer is a bete noir to some, perhaps because she regarded McMurtry as a waste of space . They maintain that she deliberately hid from McMurtry and others the fact of Germer's death, no doubt by affecting his voice on the telephone, or disguising herself as Karl when anyone came visiting. 
Talking of ashes, did anyone else notice that Chelsea's goal came from a unpunished foul by Ashley Cole?
kidneyhawk - Dec 10, 2006 - 07:15 PM
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Quote: ›
did anyone else notice that Chelsea's goal came from a unpunished foul by Ashley Cole?
Is this some sort of esoteric Typhonian Talk from the Sovereign Sanctuary?
arcturus418 - Dec 10, 2006 - 08:03 PM
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It was in HAMPTON NJ I think. And maybe Germer scattered the ashes on receipt....
badfreddy - Dec 10, 2006 - 08:19 PM
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I have prevously read that some of his ashes where indeed given to Deidre McClellan, the mother of Crowley's son Randall Gair (aka Aleister Ataturk).
Apperently she took them to Loch Ness. I can no longer find the direct link to where I read this, but they where once located at ref 2#
ref 1#
http://www.channel4.com/history/microsi ... owley.html
ref 2#
http://www.thelemacoasttocoast.com/foru ... opicId=209
TreeDragon7 - Dec 10, 2006 - 09:35 PM
Post subject: tree in new jersey
why do they call new jersey the garden state? what are they growing, smoke stacks ?
bad joker, Ryan
Patriarch156 - Dec 11, 2006 - 05:33 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › They maintain that she deliberately hid from McMurtry and others the fact of Germer's death, no doubt by affecting his voice on the telephone, or disguising herself as Karl when anyone came visiting.
That is one rather uncharitable way of looking at it making it seem like an irrational tale. Another and more charitable way of looking at it was that she, who was reclusive, deliberately neglected to inform the other american members of Germer's death, which makes it seem not only rational but likely given her feelings towards them, and is actually the one I have heard from people over the years. I think one would be hard pressed to find someone who claims the things you attribute to the theory
Other than that nice summary of the two tales of what happened to the ashes. If I remember correctly the one about S. dispersing the ashes has been told by McMurtry who reported Karl Germer told him about it when he inquired about the ashes.
MichaelStaley - Dec 11, 2006 - 10:59 AM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › Another and more charitable way of looking at it was that she, who was reclusive, deliberately neglected to inform the other american members of Germer's death . . .
Phyllis Seckler accompanied Sascha Germer to the funeral parlour to collect Garmer's ashes (quoted in Cornelius's biography of McMurtry). Helen Parsons-Smith also knew of the death because the Swiss O.T.O. sent a circular letter to Wilfred Smith, unaware that Smith was dead (quoted in Starr's biography of Smith). It would not have been unreasonable of Sascha Germer to expect that these two would have informed the others - assuming that there was still contact between these people, of course, Agape Lodge having been closed down by Germer in 1953.
Patriarch156 - Dec 11, 2006 - 12:34 PM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › Phyllis Seckler accompanied Sascha Germer to the funeral parlour to collect Garmer's ashes (quoted in Cornelius's biography of McMurtry). Helen Parsons-Smith also knew of the death because the Swiss O.T.O. sent a circular letter to Wilfred Smith, unaware that Smith was dead (quoted in Starr's biography of Smith). It would not have been unreasonable of Sascha Germer to expect that these two would have informed the others - assuming that there was still contact between these people, of course, Agape Lodge having been closed down by Germer in 1953.
As I understood it there were little contact between McMurtry and the others until he was informed that Germer was dead. Is there a reason why Sascha would have known about the circular letter to W. Smith?
Even so, there is little or no reason for taking the rather uncharitable view you mentioned above on those who hold to this theory.
MichaelStaley - Dec 11, 2006 - 01:22 PM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › As I understood it there were little contact between McMurtry and the others until he was informed that Germer was dead.
Yes, that's obvious. Interesting that neither Phyllis Seckler nor Helen Parsons-Smith, nor anyone else who might have heard it from these two, made much if any effort to track down McMurtry and tell him the news. Somewhat curious considering that McMurtry was supposed to be such a senior officer. 
Patriarch156 wrote: › Even so, there is little or no reason for taking the rather uncharitable view you mentioned above on those who hold to this theory.
There's nothing to substantiate the view that Sascha Germer hid the news of her husband's death from ex-members of Agape Lodge. After all, she was prompt enough to inform Motta and Metzger it would seem. Thus if anyone is being uncharitable it is those who peddle such a view, perhaps to account for McMurtry apparently not knowing anything about Germer's death for years afterwards.
Patriarch156 - Dec 11, 2006 - 07:23 PM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › Yes, that's obvious. Interesting that neither Phyllis Seckler nor Helen Parsons-Smith, nor anyone else who might have heard it from these two, made much if any effort to track down McMurtry and tell him the news. Somewhat curious considering that McMurtry was supposed to be such a senior officer.
If the factions were allready polarised I don't really find that surprising at all. Again it all depends on how charitable one is when attributing hidden motives for people's views.
Moreover McMurtry's position in the Order as a senior officer is clearly laid down in the letters by Crowley. That he fell out of favour does not really change this.
Quote: › There's nothing to substantiate the view that Sascha Germer hid the news of her husband's death from ex-members of Agape Lodge. After all, she was prompt enough to inform Motta and Metzger it would seem.
Both of which were never members of Agape Lodge.
Quote: › Thus if anyone is being uncharitable it is those who peddle such a view
Uncharitable towards Sascha perhaps but not really as a interpretation of why people think as they do.
Quote: › perhaps to account for McMurtry apparently not knowing anything about Germer's death for years afterwards.
That is a rather uncharitable way of interpreting these things, another just as uncharitable way of ascribing motives to yourself is that you yourself stands to gain that McMurtry's position in the Order is weakened which seems to have been your whole point the whole time
magispiegel - Dec 11, 2006 - 08:41 PM
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Hello Patriarch156,
This thread has gone a tad provocative...
So, I think Ill make my own order ? 
So...what would the plan be?
Answer: Like everybody else i.e. The Great Beast, Krishnamurti, Rudolf Steiner etc....join an order, learn from it, exploit it, use and abuse people, create differences of opinion and have arguments or magickal wars if you so will?, that is, with others who disagree with a particular point of view or order/system(s)...then BREAK, BREAK, BREAK away! and create youre own parrot fashioned one? Why not copy some of the rituals and initiations too? Yes! What a great idea..., you got the books and the experience 
What's the point?
naturally...'to evolve from' old fashioned restrictions of view in regard to the practice of THE GREAT WORK....Hail Kenneth Grant!
Others have done it! anyone willing to sign their souls over?
Please make your application, if you dare!
Best Wishes
Charles
MichaelStaley - Dec 11, 2006 - 09:26 PM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › If the factions were allready polarised I don't really find that surprising at all. Again it all depends on how charitable one is when attributing hidden motives for people's views.
I don't know to which "factions" you are referring. Both Phyllis Seckler and Helen Parsons-Smith were senior members of McMurtry's O.T.O.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Moreover McMurtry's position in the Order as a senior officer is clearly laid down in the letters by Crowley. That he fell out of favour does not really change this.
The letters that Germer wrote to McMurtry in the late 1950s hardly merit such an anodyne description as "out of favour". They are vitriolic, and make it clear that Germer had a very poor opinion of McMurtry. Doubtless you have them; they were available in the download section of this site until a few weeks ago.
It is true that McMurtry was never removed from office. On the other hand, towards the end of his life Germer seems to have regarded the O.T.O. as moribund, so would have considered a high office on paper as neither here nor there.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Both of which were never members of Agape Lodge.
I didn't suggest that they were.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Uncharitable towards Sascha perhaps . . .
Glad we can agree on something.
Patriarch156 wrote: › That is a rather uncharitable way of interpreting these things, another just as uncharitable way of ascribing motives to yourself is that you yourself stands to gain that McMurtry's position in the Order is weakened which seems to have been your whole point the whole time)
In what way do I stand to gain from a weakening of McMurtry's position? Are you worried that the whole edifice might come tumbling down? You wouldn't want to encourage me, now would you?
lashtal - Dec 11, 2006 - 09:36 PM
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Just a reminder that this thread was originally about the current location of Crowley's ashes, not a request for the re-stating of entrenched pro- and anti-OTO factions.
There's a place for that conversation: it's just that it's not in this thread.
Back to topic or a new thread, please...
MichaelStaley - Dec 11, 2006 - 11:03 PM
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badfreddy wrote: › I have prevously read that some of his ashes where indeed given to Deidre McClellan, the mother of Crowley's son Randall Gair (aka Aleister Ataturk).
I recall reading that too, somewhere, sometime. All in all, I'm glad the ashes were lost. One less holy relic to be worshipped . . .
kidneyhawk - Dec 11, 2006 - 11:12 PM
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...or defaced-or simply indignified. Think of Jim Morrison's Grave and imagine how many spray painted Pentagrams would have to be scrubbed off the headstone on a weekly basis. Esp. in Jersey!
m.klaw - Dec 11, 2006 - 11:14 PM
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This cremation subject is provoking me a little. It was my birthday last week (5th) and I thought up a list of correspondences which may well qualify me as the legitimate reincarnation of AC:
5th Dec - Crowley's cremation
DOB, 1875 - DOB, 1975
Plymouth Brethren - POB, Plymouth
Leo Rising - Leo Rising
Aleister - Alistair
common interest in OTO
As J. Knutsworth (the previous lashtal 666 reincarnate) observably put it: 'it all adds up...' and his only claim was having a problem with sex & alcohol...
I'd like to hear from the other reincarnates (their name is certainly legion) if we share a common experience and perception on things. I'd also like to know if I should declare myself head of the Caliphate (?), seeing that this is apparently the only authorised Thelemic order these days...
Anyway, good to be back boys!
666
lashtal - Dec 11, 2006 - 11:50 PM
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Welcome back, Aleister. The world's needs your witty iconoclasm as much now as when you were last knocking about these parts.
m.klaw wrote: › I should declare myself head of the Caliphate (?), seeing that this is apparently the only authorised Thelemic order these days...
I'm not sure that anyone's gone so far as to say that.
Back to the topic (again!) -- where the bloody hell are your ashes?
Paul
nashimiron - Dec 11, 2006 - 11:57 PM
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m.klaw wrote: › I'd like to hear from the other reincarnates (their name is certainly legion)
Come on, anyone who knows anything will tell you that I am the reincarnation of Aleister Crowley. The evidence is astounding - I climbed Snowdon about 15 years ago, I've read loads of books, I get drunk at weekends and I got laid once. Hell, I even read Magick in Theory and Practice once, or at least the first half of it. Load of bollocks if you ask me, couldn't understand a bloody word of it.
Oh yes, and I died in a B&B in Hastings about half a century ago.
Do I win £5?
kidneyhawk - Dec 12, 2006 - 12:53 AM
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Hmmm....
Good try, Nashimiron, but you're pretentiousness will avail you NOUGHT.
I WROTE Magick & Theory & Practice, drew LAM and died in Hastings myself.
And then I was CREMATED.
kidneyhawk - Dec 12, 2006 - 12:54 AM
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Furthermore, I can't find my own bloody ashes and Michael Staley doesn't even care...
Being the Beast ain't all it's cracked up to be.
BlueKephra - Dec 12, 2006 - 01:03 AM
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Ohoh.....you think it's a mere co-incedence that David Michael Tibet now lives in Hastings? I think dark conjurings are afoot.....
kidneyhawk - Dec 12, 2006 - 01:28 AM
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He was G.K. Chesterson. We had words back in the day but all in good fun, I assure you. I still have the most profound admiration for the Sky-God Shu and he...well, he's made great strides towards throwing off his previous linguistic limitations. I applaud his efforts!
666TSAEB - Jan 08, 2007 - 02:42 AM
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An article originating here in Weird NJ Magazine No. 25:
http://www.weirdnj.com/store/product.ph ... t=0&page=1
Provides some obscure information indeed on the subject and is followed up by none other than Jerry Cornelius, who provided a rare photo of the Germers from that period in the May 2006ev Issue which followed.
pike66 - Jan 08, 2007 - 02:52 AM
Post subject: tree in new jersey
TreeDragon7 wrote: › why do they call new jersey the garden state? what are they growing, smoke stacks ?
bad joker, Ryan
Ahh, the George Carlin/Crowley connection. ...take her to New Jersey!
-R.Pike-
ameth441 - Jan 08, 2007 - 04:09 AM
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93
lol nice post lashtal, that three line answer to where crowley's ashes are was hilarious. i got a good laugh out of that.
in LVX
ameth
badnewz - Jan 08, 2007 - 03:47 PM
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being from new jersey myself, id like to know where all these "smoke stacks" are... nothing around me but the DE river/bay farms out the bung hole and mexicans who work the fields...
SteveCranmer - Jul 02, 2008 - 04:34 PM
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Last December, a New Jersey-based blogger (Christopher Knowles) traveled to the infamous tree, and posted a short travelogue with some photos. He didn't give exact driving directions or GPS coordinates, though. 
Steve
(who, yes, was born there)
uranus - Jul 03, 2008 - 12:28 AM
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I believe the story of the Aleister Crowley Tree was first revealed by Marcelo Motta, though I have a vague recollection of McMurtry having written about it as well. I tend to believe she did throw the ashes out after an emotional arguement with Karl Germer. We are talking about a woman who experienced extreme emotional sways. Sascha Germer seems to be almost a pitiable character, a sad story in the annals of Thelema to be sure.
SororBrigid - Jul 03, 2008 - 11:09 PM
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I wrote the Weird NJ article with Mark Sceurman about Crowley's burial site. I happen to live in Hampton, NJ. (And believe it or not, NJ is not mostly smoke stacks--we are very rural out West and South). I have discovered via leads from that article that 1. Karl Germer's house still exists, and 2. It is not in Hampton proper, but rather in Changewater, which is in Lebanon Township. This second piece of info coincides with the deed to the property, which says that it is in Lebanon Township. Hampton was most likely associated with the site because it was the post office for the entire area. I know that Germer had a P.O. Box in the Hampton post office.
From what I've been told, the current owner of the property will shoot anyone who goes near it, and/or is quick to call the cops, so I'm trying to use my social networks in Changewater to get to the site. If I have any updated info, I will let you know.
Brigid Nischala Burke
lashtal - Jul 04, 2008 - 08:14 PM
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Thanks for the information - we look forward to your updates.
paperroute50 - Jul 06, 2008 - 07:12 PM
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Yes, Labanon Township seems to be the place. Germer's NJ address was P.O. Box in Hanpton which did not mean that he actually lived in that town.
666TSAEB - Jul 06, 2008 - 09:56 PM
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SororBrigid wrote: › I wrote the Weird NJ article
Looks like it is still available:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WEIRD-NEW-JERSEY-NJ ... otohosting
durga23 - Jul 07, 2008 - 02:27 AM
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SororBrigid,
93
An excellent article - thanks for the update. Fascinating research for a previous fellow New Jersian such as myself!
Like I've said before - its a great place to be buried and/or spread - if you don't beleive it - go and visit!
Best.
93 93/93,
Durga23
paperroute50 - Jul 07, 2008 - 12:54 PM
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Dirge23,
Indeed. And to shatter anyone's thoughts abt NJ being all smoke stacks, let's send em' to the Pine Barrens!
durga23 - Jul 07, 2008 - 08:03 PM
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