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Biography - Crowley's Children

WildWitch - Feb 01, 2007 - 06:16 PM
Post subject: Crowley's Children

I know Crowley fathered several children with several women over the course of several years. Does anyone know what happened to Crowley's children?

leahalostrael - Feb 06, 2007 - 12:35 AM
Post subject:

He is known what happened with most of its children, those Rose Kelly first Isis, Hecate, and later Lola Zasa died, the one of Leah Hirsig, Poupee, followed the same luck. Single Aleister Attaturk son of Deidre Mclellan followed with life, but it changed his full name by resentment, its sign after that is diffuse. You can obtain data on him in You Tube in the third part of documentary “the man but perverse of the world” that appears like “Masters of Darkness pt 3”, there is an interview to Deidre done in 1996.
See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVasoNn-jdQ

affectionately

Lucius - Feb 06, 2007 - 08:34 AM
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To my knowledge, Aleister Ataturk (Crowley's last living offspring) died in a car crash years ago.
Curiously, I was just listening to a Lon Milo Duquette interview on Coast to Coast AM where a rather frantic sounding caller claimed he'd been personally steamed in a hypnotic espresso machine attack by a supposed "blood relative" of Crowley's around the year of 1990 in California. Amusing stuff, but highly highly improbable. On the other hand, I can now explain my twisted enjoyment of Starbucks to myself.

James - Feb 06, 2007 - 09:32 AM
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A friend of mine went to university and was friendly with a great-great-great (I'm not sure how many) grand daughter of AC's. She and her family still used the name Crowley. It was Leeds University during the 1980s. I'm afraid, I've no further information and to be honest the family may not wish their details to be given out too freely.

mistyrose - Apr 18, 2007 - 06:07 PM
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Lola died in 1990, if youre interested. She was Lola Hill by then as she married. She died in Reading.

Aum418 - Apr 18, 2007 - 07:07 PM
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Why is there little or no mention of these children beyond their deaths in Crowley's writing?

Erica - Jul 02, 2007 - 08:52 PM
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Why hasn't anyone done a complete study of his offspring? Such a thing would be a great book.

frater_cug - Jul 02, 2007 - 10:34 PM
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Erica wrote: › Why hasn't anyone done a complete study of his offspring?

They probably wanted their privacy.

If they were more public, They would have all the white witches of England trying to exorcise them. (someone with Crowley's blood has to be better PR than an old bed).

Reporters calling them for interviews every time there is some Satanist scare.

Crackpot occultists, or even just some heavy metal kids hounding them for who knows what reasons.

Conspiracy theorist picketing them to stop the NWO.

Really if I was Crowley's kid, I'd tell no one. Wink

ezrakudo - Aug 11, 2007 - 11:10 AM
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I was gonna start another topic for this subject but i can't see the point. I too want to know more about crowley's children. I dare say he had many many offspring scattered about, and that he may have hated the commitment that children bring, but liked the idea of crowley offspring tomaybe carry on his legacy. However from reading this I realise a few didnt accept crowley as a father and rejected his legacy. And a good few had poor health and have died. the children I have come across are;

- Amado Crowley (nothing or very very little known about)
- Edward Crowley (seen a few articles on the net about him, apparently a son of crowley and convicted of murder)
- Isis (by Rose Kelly + deceased)
- Hecate (by Rose kelly + deceased)
- Lola Zasa (by Rose Kelly - changed her name but kept the name crowley - died 'Lola Hill')
- Poupee (by Leah Hirsig - had poor health and deceased)
- Aleister Attaturk (by Deirdre Mclellan - most information on him than any of the children - denounced his father and changed his name more than once and deceased)

anpi - Aug 11, 2007 - 11:34 AM
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I don't know what really was in Crowley's mind, but yeah, I suppose he wasn't really fond of living a safe family life. I'd think he liked the idea of having a child in any case, if only because it's such a major thing in life, universe, etc, but at the same time he didn't want to give up his commitment to manly explorations and adventures. I find some of his stunts quite irresponsible. He took Rose and their one year old child through a long trip through the wilderness of China, left them in India and later in Confessions blamed Rose that their child had died.

MichaelStaley - Aug 11, 2007 - 11:38 AM
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ezrakudo wrote: › Edward Crowley (seen a few articles on the net about him, apparently a son of crowley and convicted of murder)

There was no son called Edward that I am aware of. On the other hand there was someone a few years ago who changed his name to Edward Crowley; he went on to murder someone, for which he was convicted and imprisoned. He was not related to Crowley, and I am surprised that you suggest that he was.

achad - Aug 11, 2007 - 09:29 PM
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there is no link of the surname to the Great Beast, it IS a pretty common name especially in Ireland and even some people in occultism like Vivianne Crowley are not related. As Mike Staley wrote, the murderer mentioned above changed his surname by deed poll. My book (see news feed on this site, or www.occultebooks.com for more info ) covers Amado and his many claims to heredity

dave e

Schaard - Aug 12, 2007 - 12:34 PM
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The attendees of NOTOCON just watched Eric Fuller, AC's grandson, play Jazz with hymenaeus beta. Quite a treat.

Azidonis - Aug 12, 2007 - 01:56 PM
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93,

I would much rather see a drama in which Mr. Fuiller pickpocketed H.B. for the O.T.O. rights and ran. Razz

93 93/93

lashtal - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:21 PM
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Azidonis wrote: › I would much rather see a drama in which Mr. Fuiller pickpocketed H.B. for the O.T.O. rights and ran.

Er, thanks...I suspect you've missed the core of a very interesting tale so I'll ask the obvious questions in my next post...

lashtal - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:23 PM
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Schaard wrote: › The attendees of NOTOCON just watched Eric Fuller, AC's grandson, play Jazz with hymenaeus beta. Quite a treat.

Fascinating! Please give us more details. What instrument did Eric play? In what way is he related to Crowley?

Azidonis - Aug 12, 2007 - 02:58 PM
Post subject:

lashtal wrote: ›

Azidonis wrote: › I would much rather see a drama in which Mr. Fuiller pickpocketed H.B. for the O.T.O. rights and ran.

Er, thanks...I suspect you've missed the core of a very interesting tale so I'll ask the obvious questions in my next post...

93,

Oh yes. My apologies. I'm not sure why, but well... okay, I'll leave my personal opinions out of this... okay maybe not. I just thought it was funny.

So is this the same Eric Fuller?
http://cdbaby.com/cd/visualcliff2

I really will, seriously try to refrain from such posts in the future. Again, sincerest apologies, Paul.

93 93/93

Schaard - Aug 14, 2007 - 06:34 AM
Post subject:

lashtal wrote: ›

Schaard wrote: › The attendees of NOTOCON just watched Eric Fuller, AC's grandson, play Jazz with hymenaeus beta. Quite a treat.

Fascinating! Please give us more details. What instrument did Eric play? In what way is he related to Crowley?

It seems that Eric is the grandson of Crowley, through some woman at Cefalu. I know you guys aren't going to be happy with that explication, but I honestly didn't understand what was said on the mic. Look for the notocon post-event literature and I am sure you'll have all the details you need.

Eric Fuller was an extremely respectable individual. His jazz piano is absolutely spectacular. Also, as a person, and I did spend a bit of time with him, he's extremely personable with a horribly dark sense of humor (imagine that, eh?) Honestly, grandson of AC or not, his cd is most likely worth purchase. He hung out with us for a couple of days afterwards and we all had a blast.

suti - Aug 14, 2007 - 09:27 PM
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Eric Muhler, son of Astarte Lulu Panthea (via Ninette Shumway and Aleister Crowley, see the dedication to Diary of a Drug Fiend)

Eric's website is http://www.ericmuhlerjazz.com/

Azidonis - Aug 15, 2007 - 11:57 AM
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93,

One thing I've noticed (it's not so hard) about Crowley's children is the young untimely deaths. The idea arises then, that perhaps the drug use came into play with all of that. Any thoughts, fictional or factual?

93 93/93

anpi - Aug 15, 2007 - 06:38 PM
Post subject:

Azidonis wrote: ›
One thing I've noticed (it's not so hard) about Crowley's children is the young untimely deaths. The idea arises then, that perhaps the drug use came into play with all of that. Any thoughts, fictional or factual?

I don't know how much this issue was a factor to his drug use. In any case, it's quite clear from The Fountain of Hyacinth (http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib93.htm) that was quite deeply moved by the death of Poupée at the time he was struggling with his addiction.

"N.B. Part of my plan in coming here is to dig up the bitter memories which have been killing me. I was so happy and hopeful here two years ago; and now my little Poupe(ace)e has been dead over a year and her little brother never came to birth; and my manhood in part is crushed"

"The day had been one of anguish. Poupee peeped from every alley in the forest. I think of her now without the least tendency to emotion of any kind at all; it is even hard to remember that I ever regretted her for an instant."

Walterfive - Mar 25, 2008 - 02:30 PM
Post subject:

Azidonis wrote: › 93,

One thing I've noticed (it's not so hard) about Crowley's children is the young untimely deaths. The idea arises then, that perhaps the drug use came into play with all of that. Any thoughts, fictional or factual?

93 93/93

My thoughts are that the infant mortality rate was much higher then than it is now, and that even a simple cut could lead to septisimia or tetanus. People died much younger and faster in those days. There was no miracle-drug like penicillin back in Crowley's heyday. Viral infection from impure food or drinking water was much more common as well, of course. I'd reccomend the book The Good Old Days--They Were Terrible! by Dr. Otto L. Bettmann for a well-researched book on the subject.

N.C.Bishop-Culpeper - Mar 26, 2008 - 04:39 PM
Post subject: Edward Crowley

MichaelStaley wrote: ›

ezrakudo wrote: › Edward Crowley (seen a few articles on the net about him, apparently a son of crowley and convicted of murder)

themuhler - Apr 20, 2008 - 06:12 PM
Post subject: RE: Edward Crowley

Just for the record:

Astarte Lulu Panthea was born in Cefalu 11/26/20 to Ninette Shumway and Aleister Crowley.
She was raised in the USA from 1931 by Ninette's older sister Helene Fraux.
She is alive and well at age 87. She has four children including Eric Muhler, the pianist who played at NOTOCON last year.
She remembers Crowley quite well, grew up around him and knew him in Paris between ages of 6-11 after leaving Cefalu. She doesn't like him or believe in his teachings.
I am Eric Muhler.
I consider myself an atheist Thelemite, but do not join organizations, read books of Magick, or "believe" in much of anything. I prefer spiritual practices to be self-determined, self-apparent, un-regulated, indeterminate, unwritten, unstudied, unprecedented, devoid of content, without ritual, silent, personal, and only to be shared on special request. Music is my personal path and passion. Anything anybody needs to know about anything can be gleaned from a life-long and close analysis (appreciation) of my music or just about anything else. Instrumental music can be a relatively simple approach line to the well-lived life. (Eternity)

Good luck and 93s to you all.

Sincerely,

Eric Muhler
www.EricMuhlerJazz.com

lashtal - Apr 20, 2008 - 08:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Edward Crowley

Eric,

Welcome to LAShTAL.COM. It's a real pleasure to see you here - I'm glad you finally managed to triumph over our sometimes tricky registration process...

sethur666 - Apr 22, 2008 - 11:37 AM
Post subject:

93

The temptation to ask Mr Muhler if he has any memories of meeting Uncle Amado is very strong, but I will simply say that having now read statements by both, I know which one I respect, and believe for that matter.

93 93/93

Steve W

newneubergOuch - Apr 22, 2008 - 11:44 AM
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hopefully its not the absurd amado you believe............................

themuhler - Apr 22, 2008 - 04:33 PM
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I have not met Uncle Amado. I have never met anybody named Amado. My original post began with seven factual statements. All are true and so you are safe in "believing" them.

YT (Yours truly) 93 Babee!

Eric

Camlion - Apr 22, 2008 - 04:53 PM
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93 Eric,

themuhler wrote: › I have not met Uncle Amado. I have never met anybody named Amado. My original post began with seven factual statements. All are true and so you are safe in "believing" them.

YT (Yours truly) 93 Babee!

Eric

Welcome. It is very good to 'read you' here. Smile

93 93/93
Camlion

Aleisterion - Apr 22, 2008 - 04:55 PM
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It is an honor to be among a descendent of the prophet and it is truly wonderful to learn that Astarte is still alive and well. I wish all the best to you, Mr.Muhler, thanks for stepping forward and may your musical career be all you want it to be.

themuhler - Apr 22, 2008 - 05:44 PM
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[quote="Aleisterion"]It is an honor to be among a descendent of the prophet and it is truly wonderful to learn that Astarte is still alive and well. I wish all the best to you, Mr.Muhler, thanks for stepping forward and may your musical career be all you want it to be.[/quote]

Well thanks, I guess! "Honor"? "Prophet"? Yeehaw! I know that many people take religion and Magick seriously, but my family's perspective on Crowley, based on Lulu's 11 years around him, is that... Oh well, why go there. Suffice it to say, that Lulu is alive and well because she got as far as possible from the Prophet, a distance enhanced by Crowley's death in '47, a day of minor celebration for Lulu.

Music is my path to the infinite and eternal. It is my Will. It's my interpretation of the meaning of Magick. It has and continues to require a lifetime of intense practice and has a ritual element in that practice. I consider it a success when people give indication (applause - CD sales) that they have connected to the infinite and eternal through my medium. My earliest memories are of intense connection through the hearing of many types of music in my family home. That has only grown over a half-century of ecstatic involvement.

The most Thelemic Project of my life, however, has been the 19 year project of raising two daughters. Of course, I did a much better job of this than the Prophet did. It would be pretty much impossible to be much worse. The first step to a lifetime steeped in Reality, Infinity, and the Eternal is to eschew all religions, "sacred" traditions, and especially Magick! Only then is there an open door to observance and recoginition of Infinity and Eternity.

As a child I was perverted by Presbyterianism and at age eighteen, Magick. It has taken me the ensuing forty years to get rid of both (and all the other crap I was exposed to) and get to the clean state I raised my daughters in. They have a huge head start.

To all of you involved in the Thelemic pursuit, I would urge you all to imagine what the final degree of initiation might involve, and just go ahead and jump!

YT 93 and Ecstasee Babee!

Eric

Aleisterion - Apr 22, 2008 - 06:10 PM
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"As a child I was perverted by Presbyterianism and at age eighteen, Magick."

Isn't real magick simply the genius that man can achieve in art, music, and literature? For me, this is the definition of real magick, the production of value that is in excess of the ordinary.

At any rate I too share your antipathy for the prophet's personal shortcomings. It by no means detracts from my appreciation for that which inspired and motivated him. And my own personal celebration of that creative force in all of us takes artful forms. My religion is a life well-lived, a happy life and one that produces and relishes beauty.

themuhler - Apr 22, 2008 - 06:39 PM
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[quote="Aleisterion"]"As a child I was perverted by Presbyterianism and at age eighteen, Magick."

Isn't real magick simply the genius that man can achieve in art, music, and literature? For me, this is the definition of real magick, the production of value that is in excess of the ordinary.

At any rate I too share your antipathy for the prophet's personal shortcomings. It by no means detracts from my appreciation for that which inspired and motivated him. And my own personal celebration of that creative force in all of us takes artful forms. My religion is a life well-lived, a happy life and one that produces and relishes beauty.[/quote]

Sounds like you made it, then. Welcome!

I have always felt that heroin, severely muddied and muddled what "inspired and motivated" the Prophet. And, yes, "real magick (is) simply the genius that man can achieve in art, music, and literature" As an artist I have always found Crowley to be a lesser poet, writer, and painter than a thousand others I find a much more direct path to Infinity and Eternity.

For me, Crowley found two profound truths.

1. Sex Is Good and
2. Humanity is Ready to Know and Do Their True Will.

Neither one of these is new or truly revolutionary as many many of the most common and ordinary people have known and practiced these truths since forever. However, to the extent that many more people have been blindered, limited, constrained, conscripted, ruined, killed, murdered, bored to death, and or any of the other tortures of "spirituality" and "religion," his message could be seen as a liberation of sorts. For many of us, this is merely a footnote on the path which we naturally fell into. And the ultimate irony, is that Crowley felt it necessary to write all these hooka ma jooka books about all this religious and spiritual crap and start yet another "religion" and write a bunch of boring, meaningless, rituals and practices, etc.! When I say I dislike Magick I'm talking about all those unreadable books about spells, incantations, IAO ranting, demons, skrying (SP?) and all that hooka ma jooka. You just wrote a beautiful succinct and clear definition of Magick that is far better than all that baloney Crowley and his followers put down to cloud the issue. Yick! Give me art and science any day! Oh yeah, and money! I love art, science, and MONEY!

Of course, if Crowley's scribblings, rituals, and practices have meaning for "you", (anybody) I don't intend to be insulting. More power to you! Forward ye Catholic Soldiers of Crowley!

YT 93 and Ecstasee Babee!

Eric

Camlion - Apr 22, 2008 - 08:27 PM
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93 Eric,

That Crowley did not make sufficient personal investment in his own children to have earned much of a return from them or their descendants should come as no surprise to anyone familiar with his life.

In any event, you are to be commended for doing your True Will, which is all that need be asked of anyone.

93 93/93
Camlion

newneubergOuch - Apr 23, 2008 - 03:26 PM
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yep, I should`ve added the sether666 quote to clarify where my original comment was aimed, .............anyway...Eric is legit, the real McCoy.

Aleisterion - Apr 23, 2008 - 05:31 PM
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Eric Muhler wrote: "Neither one of these is new or truly revolutionary as many many of the most common and ordinary people have known and practiced these truths since forever. However, to the extent that many more people have been blindered, limited, constrained, conscripted, ruined, killed, murdered, bored to death, and or any of the other tortures of "spirituality" and "religion," his message could be seen as a liberation of sorts. For many of us, this is merely a footnote on the path which we naturally fell into. And the ultimate irony, is that Crowley felt it necessary to write all these hooka ma jooka books about all this religious and spiritual crap and start yet another "religion" and write a bunch of boring, meaningless, rituals and practices, etc.! When I say I dislike Magick I'm talking about all those unreadable books about spells, incantations, IAO ranting, demons, skrying (SP?) and all that hooka ma jooka. You just wrote a beautiful succinct and clear definition of Magick that is far better than all that baloney Crowley and his followers put down to cloud the issue. Yick! Give me art and science any day! Oh yeah, and money! I love art, science, and MONEY!"

Thanks for the compliment! Unfortunately Crowley had one foot in the Old Aeon and that left him with considerable superstition and archaic notions, but he occasionally had a wonderful way with words (I love the Holy Books). As for money, absolutely (and Crowley thought so too, though his magical rites to get it never worked - short term anyway, today his scribblings attract tons of it!). Without money, it can be damned hard to appreciate anything...I learned that the hard way, when I was homeless years back.

Eric: "Of course, if Crowley's scribblings, rituals, and practices have meaning for "you", (anybody) I don't intend to be insulting. More power to you! Forward ye Catholic Soldiers of Crowley!"

You're not insulting at all. There was a lot of show to Crowley. He was an entertainer, and a pretty good one. He'd make a fortune today in the age of television. But there was in my estimation a genuinely extraordinary intelligence that guided him and some of those around him. I think he paid it little enough attention and let down alot of those people. Anyway I don't worship Crowley, though I do worship the beautiful universe that inspired him so. And myself!! Self-fulfillment is everything.

themuhler - Apr 23, 2008 - 06:39 PM
Post subject:

[quote="Aleisterion"]

Eric: "Of course, if Crowley's scribblings, rituals, and practices have meaning for "you", (anybody) I don't intend to be insulting. More power to you! Forward ye Catholic Soldiers of Crowley!"

You're not insulting at all. There was a lot of show to Crowley. He was an entertainer, and a pretty good one. He'd make a fortune today in the age of television. But there was in my estimation a genuinely extraordinary intelligence that guided him and some of those around him. I think he paid it little enough attention and let down alot of those people. Anyway I don't worship Crowley, though I do worship the beautiful universe that inspired him so. And myself!! Self-fulfillment is everything.[/quote]

Yes, EVERYTHING!

YT 93 & Ecstasee Babee!

Eric

bazelek - Apr 23, 2008 - 06:44 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Edward Crowley

Hi Eric,

themuhler wrote: › I prefer spiritual practices to be self-determined, self-apparent, un-regulated, indeterminate, unwritten, unstudied, unprecedented, devoid of content, without ritual, silent, personal, and only to be shared on special request.

How refreshing! Might this just be the most original and Thelemic thinking ever uttered in this forum? Very Happy

And that phrase 'Hooka ma jooka' is fabulous... hope you will do a CD with that title!!

bazelek

themuhler - Apr 23, 2008 - 06:49 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Edward Crowley

[quote="bazelek"]Hi Eric,

[quote="themuhler"] I prefer spiritual practices to be self-determined, self-apparent, un-regulated, indeterminate, unwritten, unstudied, unprecedented, devoid of content, without ritual, silent, personal, and only to be shared on special request.[/quote]

How refreshing! Might this just be the most original and Thelemic thinking ever uttered in this forum? :D

And that phrase 'Hooka ma jooka' is fabulous... hope you will do a CD with that title!!

bazelek[/quote]

Well, of course, I'd like to think so, but I'm capable of self-doubt. (You know, when the Hooka ma Jooka strikes a clandestine blow and clouds the normal clarity. :-)

YT 93 & Ecstass Babee!

Eric

themuhler - Apr 23, 2008 - 06:50 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Edward Crowley

Walterfive - Apr 23, 2008 - 08:28 PM
Post subject:

Quite right, Aleisterion!

I've several Brothers who met Mr. Muhler at NOTOCON, and all speak very highly of him.

Welcome, Mr. Muhler! Glad to see you among the participants here!

themuhler - Apr 23, 2008 - 09:29 PM
Post subject:

Thanks! By the way, you can call me Eric. I've noticed that nobody on this lashtal thing seems to use their names. Is there a reason for that? It's sort of discombobulating to be talking to people and one has no concept of who one is talking to. I'm very new to this web site chatting thing or blogging or whatever people call it. Is one supposed to be anonymous?

Aleisterion - Apr 23, 2008 - 09:55 PM
Post subject:

Hey we could start a thread on "Why did you choose your screen name?" or "What does it mean" I for one would be interested in hearing the rationale by many of these names.

the_real_simon_iff - Apr 23, 2008 - 10:14 PM
Post subject:

93, Eric!

Welcome to this site and thanks for the link to your site. I love the piano, I love your music. Hopefully you some day play it here in Germany...

Love=Law
Lutz (my real name. I chose my login name, because just Simon_Iff was already taken. But I enjoy how many people PM me calling me Simon... I also thought about sueing the_spurious_simon_iff...)

bazelek - Apr 23, 2008 - 10:30 PM
Post subject:

themuhler wrote: › Thanks! By the way, you can call me Eric. I've noticed that nobody on this lashtal thing seems to use their names. Is there a reason for that? It's sort of discombobulating to be talking to people and one has no concept of who one is talking to. I'm very new to this web site chatting thing or blogging or whatever people call it. Is one supposed to be anonymous?

We are following in the footsteps of the great master, who had more names and identities than pairs of socks... Very Happy

In truth, aside from a few eternal mysteries, those who post here regularly know the identity of most contributors...

Anyway, hope you stick around!

Robert (Ansell) Wink

Walterfive - Apr 24, 2008 - 02:01 PM
Post subject:

Thanks Eric! Some people prefer their anonymity. I have a professional career and demeanor that requires me to separate my magickal and religious activities with my job to a certain degree. I refer to my "Lodge" and my "Fraternity" and my "Ministerial duties" at work, but they don't have a clue what hides behind those phrases, and that's the way I like it.

Actually, I'm quite well known as Walter Five throughout the Pagan and Magickal Communities of Texas and New England, and have been for 20 years, and (in all humility) the subject of many a tall tale and several (often comical) bardic songs. My birth name *is* Walter, the "five" part came when there was an abundance of Walters in Boston's Earthspirit community in 1988, Walter the cook, Walter the lifeguard, Big Walter and his son, and I. Wink

Uni_Verse - Apr 24, 2008 - 04:14 PM
Post subject:

themuhler wrote: ›
I've noticed that nobody on this lashtal thing seems to use their names. Is there a reason for that?

From my perspective, the reasoning is that who is speaking is not as important as what is being spoken (or posted in this situation).

Except, perhaps, in situations like this, where the conversation centers around a particular person (you).

I could reveil my name for you, but I do not think that would add anything to the conversation. A rose is but a rose and all that.

themuhler - Apr 24, 2008 - 06:26 PM
Post subject:

[quote="Uni_Verse"][quote="themuhler"]
I've noticed that nobody on this lashtal thing seems to use their names. Is there a reason for that?
[/quote]

From my perspective, the reasoning is that who is speaking is not as important as what is being spoken (or posted in this situation).

Except, perhaps, in situations like this, where the conversation centers around a particular person (you).

I could reveil my name for you, but I do not think that would add anything to the conversation. A rose is but a rose and all that.[/quote]

Then why have any ID at all? Especially when others report that they all know each other by these funny pseudonyms anyhow? I understand the guy who doesn't want people from the "professional world" to know he has anything to do with this stuff, of course. I don't have a professional world so it doesn't matter. I too have many nicknames, pseudonymns, and many, many many pairs of socks. Herewith:

John (Birth name)
Eric (Birth name and common identifier)
Mule (Stubborn as a)
Ricky Mule-ears (Children's taunt based in mispronouncing my last name, which, by the way, is pronounced M-uh-ler, NOT Mule-er)
Mule-ears (In music: "How does he hear that shit?" "Ears as big as a Mule!"
El Mule-o (Much Hispanic influence here in California)
Pappy (Children)
R Jak (Jack nickname for John, R for Ricky)
Chinese eyes (Neighbor child's reference to my almost constant smile)
Jak (See above, common variant)
Ricky (childhood family name)
Rick (Pubescent stab at dignity)
Riki-Jak (Full reversal of nicknames for John Eric)
Riki-Jak Jonxon (Threw in a last name - Pronounced like Johnson)
RJ Hammerfingers (Loud piano passages)
The Mule (Official title of World's Stubbornest Man)
Mule-inari (Italianate for the World's Stubbornest Man)
Mule-oski (Russian for the World's Stubbornest Man)
Shangledorf (To Shangle: Invoking Shango to work the angles - the name refers to the Master Shangler)
Von Mule-endorf (German for the World's Stubbornest Man)
BeastBoy (Obvious)
Brainzola (My mother thinks I'm smart)
Prince (Recently assigned at NOTOCON)
Many more...

However a lot of strangers seem to call me Fucking Asshole! a lot. It usually comes out something like "Hey, you, Fucking Asshole!" They are usually glaring right at me so I'm pretty sure that's the name they're assigning me.

Enjoying this blogging or whatever it is.

YT 93 Love & Ecstasee, Babee!

Eric

Warning in reference to a comment above: ALL MY conversations center around a certain person (me) While I remain firmly lodged in Eternity, I am also firmly lodged in the nexus of my conscious awareness, a thing that will disappear when my body ceases functioning, so all references stemming from this organism are necessarily, by definition, "All About Me." The nature of "me", of course, is a subject for vast discussion and can be better understood by reading some of the works of Daniel Dennett.

Uni_Verse - Apr 25, 2008 - 03:28 PM
Post subject:

themuhler wrote: ›
Then why have any ID at all?

You are going to have to direct that question to the moderator.

themuhler wrote: ›
Warning in reference to a comment above: ALL MY conversations center around a certain person (me) While I remain firmly lodged in Eternity, I am also firmly lodged in the nexus of my conscious awareness, a thing that will disappear when my body ceases functioning, so all references stemming from this organism are necessarily, by definition, "All About Me." The nature of "me", of course, is a subject for vast discussion and can be better understood by reading some of the works of Daniel Dennett.

I would say, it is more your awareness of the conversation that centers around you, as opposed to the actual conversation.

You say tomato, I say "No thanks, I do not like ketchup."

themuhler - Apr 25, 2008 - 03:43 PM
Post subject:

[/quote]
I would say, it is more your awareness of the conversation that centers around you, as opposed to the actual conversation.[/quote]

Of course, conversations can "center" around any possible subject, but the unique nature of every individual's "awareness" (nexus of life's inputs((and much more, of course))) will turn that conversation into an "all about me" interpretation, reflection, etc. of the discussion. Everything one brings to the conversation is "all about me" in the end. Which tells you a lot about "me"! A lot, but not a trillionth...

Uni_Verse - Apr 25, 2008 - 05:17 PM
Post subject:

I would think the conversation centers around the conversation. You then subject it to your interpretation, in an attempt to individually become aware of what the conversation is about. The conversation being an object, your interpretation the subject of its meaning.

While the interpretation or perception is derived from you, is the interpretation/perception you? It seems like a confusion of the cause for the effect.

I suppose if you were fully aware of who this "me" is, you could claim the conversation is all about "me." While you are you, and I am me ; to you, you are me and I am you.

In the end making the conversation about you, about me. Vice versa, ad infinitum, nausea.

That last line was just an attempt to make me look smart. I know I was fooled...

themuhler - Apr 25, 2008 - 06:01 PM
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[quote="Uni_Verse"]I would think the conversation centers around the conversation. You then subject it to your interpretation, in an attempt to individually become aware of what the conversation is about. The conversation being an object, your interpretation the subject of its meaning.

While the interpretation or perception is derived from you, is the interpretation/perception you? It seems like a confusion of the cause for the effect.

I suppose if you were fully aware of who this "me" is, you could claim the conversation is all about "me." While you are you, and I am me ; to you, you are me and I am you.

In the end making the conversation about you, about me. Vice versa, ad infinitum, nausea.

That last line was just an attempt to make me look smart. I know I was fooled...[/quote]

HELP! We have stumbled into deep waters. First of all, there is no "me" or "you." There are nexuses of memories, sense perceptions, and a network of synaptic neuronal connections more numerous than the number of the particles in the entire universe contained in every human brain. (Although I find that hard to believe about some people who appear to have almost none :-) ) This nexus forms a "self-perception" stronger in some folks than others. That self-perception with it's "name" (or many names, with many socks, in my case) is the filter which through all discourse runs. As we converse, every word goes through our filter and rouses one's peculiar (and in my case, VERY PECULIAR) neuron path reactions, word impressions, and any thing else imaginable, all subjected to the "color" ("flavor", "taste", "feeling, "meanings", "emotions", etc.) that your particular nexus imparts. Hence while one can be firmly lodged in the Eternal, (a state of understanding, appreciation, adaptation, and response to ultimate reality) one's sense of what that means, and every attempt to "communicate" with others will be mostly inseparable from one's "self."

For instance, I have been told in moments throughout my life that I am the most "selfish", "self-centered", "all-about-me" motherfucker they've (parents, family, friends, strangers, etc.) ever met. I tended to agree with them and didn't know what to do about it. (In the long run, I decided I liked it and didn't do anything about it!) At eighteen when Lulu told me about Crowley being my grandfather, and I did a little research, I realized that I was the second most selfish, self-centered, all-about-me motherfucker that ever lived.

An example: I love to share. This would appear to contradict my selfishness. However, after analysis, (not Freudian - self) I've come to the conclusion that I love to share because it gives me a way to escape the state of different consciousness embodied by my enlodgement in the Eternal. That state is dangerous to my physical body because it tends to preclude eating, bathing, and all the mundanities of working in the "real" world. I have chosen to fulfill the life of this body in this illusionary world of subjective impressions coming through my senses. Hence I have chosen to relish the physical world of socks, women, words, music, and everything else for the 58-108 (58 years proven - the rest is guesswork) years that "I" (this body) will be around. I even take steps to preserve this body and make it last longer. (Of course, I also do lots of things to fuck it up completely, not really giving that much of a damn) :-) So I "share" in order to keep "me" alive! (Want to buy a CD?) Hence, my total immersion in my "self" which, ironically, led me to my discovery of my enlodgement in the Eternal, where my "self" is somewhat irrelevant.

YT 93 Love & Ecstasee, Babee!

Eric

Camlion - Apr 25, 2008 - 08:25 PM
Post subject:

93 Eric,

themuhler wrote: ›

For instance, I have been told in moments throughout my life that I am the most "selfish", "self-centered", "all-about-me" motherfucker they've (parents, family, friends, strangers, etc.) ever met. I tended to agree with them and didn't know what to do about it. (In the long run, I decided I liked it and didn't do anything about it!) At eighteen when Lulu told me about Crowley being my grandfather, and I did a little research, I realized that I was the second most selfish, self-centered, all-about-me motherfucker that ever lived.

Perhaps it's true that the apples really don't fall that far from the tree? Wink

93 93/93
Camlion

bazelek - Apr 25, 2008 - 09:27 PM
Post subject:

Camlion wrote: › Perhaps it's true that the apples really don't fall that far from the tree? Wink

Surely every post Eric has made so far demonstrates that very clearly? It is the kind of dissent towards orthodoxy that Crowley relished. If his criticisms of AC and Thelema provoke discomfort, then you can begin to grasp what it must have been like for the original proselytes... Wink

zardoz - Apr 26, 2008 - 04:55 AM
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Hi eric and 93,

It's a great honor to meet you. I thought I'd drop in and say hello after reading all your mule names. I know about Mule Variations having recorded an album of that name with Tom Waits.

Your last post where you said, " Hence, my total immersion in my "self" which, ironically, led me to my discovery of my enlodgement in the Eternal, where my "self" is somewhat irrelevant. "

strongly suggests the uniting of the microcosm with the macrocosm, what Magicians call 5=6, which was a very significant aspect of your Grandfather's occult ( as in hidden) work.

My name is Oz Fritz. Using avatars is something I picked up from online gaming. One effect that has is to help separate and see, yourself, your normal personality, as a character being played by something at another level - your deep or essential self. What John Lilly called the meta-programmer.

Warm regards,
Oz

themuhler - Apr 26, 2008 - 07:38 AM
Post subject:

[quote="bazelek"][quote="Camlion"]Perhaps it's true that the apples really don't fall that far from the tree? ;)[/quote]

Surely every post Eric has made so far demonstrates that very clearly? It is the kind of dissent towards orthodoxy that Crowley relished. If his criticisms of AC and Thelema provoke discomfort, then you can begin to grasp what it must have been like for the original proselytes... :wink:[/quote]

Sorry if I sounded critical of Thelema. I'm just not into Occultism, and hooka ma jooka, demons, astrology, tarot, and all that stuff. I have a quite personal, unstudied concept of Magick and the "do your true will" part fit me to a T since long before I ever heard of Crowley (1968) As for Crowley, it seems that most Thelemites have reconciled themselves to the basically unarguable facts that Crowley was a shit head. Just a rotten human being, basically. I have a wonderful story from my Grandmother Ninette: Wanna hear it? If not, stop reading here.

I went to France in 1974 to meet my mysterious grandmother Ninette for the first time. I was 23 years old. We met in the lobby of her Catholic retirement home, where, in total irony, due to her complete loathing of all things Catholic, she lived out her years to the age of 94. She offered to take me to her room for coffee and cookies. As we walked down the long hallway toward her room she asked me "I suppose you have come to ask me questions about your Grandfather Crowley?"
"Yes" I replied.
"He was one of the greatest human geniuses to ever live." she began.
"He was a chess master who could beat most of the master's in London. He was an extraordinary mountaineer, with hundreds of first ascents and the first climbs in the Himalaya. He was a poet, essayist, novelist, and writer of great depth and range. He was an occult magus who radiated intelligence and knowledge in everything he did. He was a God Man in the tradition of Jesus Christ, the Buddha, and Lao Tzu, and he was the rottenest son-of-a-bitch I ever met!"

During our conversation over the course of that afternoon Ninette told me many tales of the hashish and opium festivals they held at Cefalu, and that it was just a matter of time before those, (like herself) that weren't insane when they got there (most were) were all completely nuts before it all fell apart. Still, she remained convinced that The Book of the Law was a "sacred" text and that she knew it's entirety by memory throughout her life. She kept a daily Magickal Diary which she scrupulously burned every year. I begged her to save them and leave them for us to read after her death, but she refused and destroyed them all.

I spent another day with Ninette in 1988 while on my honeymoon in France. We had a marvelous auto trip to her home town of Cransac (sp?) and went to view the "decouvert" the huge coal strip mine near her town. On that trip, my Aunt Jeanette, a retired Catholic nun, was along (yet another potent irony for poor Ninette to have to swallow) (it's a separate story of how the Nazis chased poor Jeanette into a convent) so Ninette wasn't giving up any Crowley tales, as Jeanette didn't know much of anything about Cefalu, (she was only two or three when they left for France, starving, half mad, shoeless, and wild as the wind) wasn't a Crowley kid, (actually the landlord's) (yet another story) and would have freaked hard if she knew where her mother had come from. She knew it was bad, but not HOW bad!

Anybow, as I said, sorry if I seemed like I was dissing Thelema. I consider myself an unschooled, unjoined, unconsidered, non-member of anything, Atheist Thelemite. "There is nothing of me that IS of the Gods" don't you know! I come from something much sterner; a careless, mindless, unintelligent, thoughtless, magnificently beautiful, endlessly creative Universe of Eternity. It took me a lot of hard work using all the "intelligence" I had to figure out how marvelously stupid AND ignorant I truly am. Humbling actually, but I worked at it so hard for so long, I still kind of dig my dumb-ass self!

YT 93 Love & Ecstasee, Babee!

Eric

P.S. In my case it is the nut that didn't fall far from the nut tree...

lashtal - Apr 26, 2008 - 09:55 PM
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Wonderful!

phthah - Apr 28, 2008 - 04:04 AM
Post subject:

93,

themuhler wrote: › "He was one of the greatest human geniuses to ever live." she began.
"He was a chess master who could beat most of the master's in London. He was an extraordinary mountaineer, with hundreds of first ascents and the first climbs in the Himalaya. He was a poet, essayist, novelist, and writer of great depth and range. He was an occult magus who radiated intelligence and knowledge in everything he did. He was a God Man in the tradition of Jesus Christ, the Buddha, and Lao Tzu, and he was the rottenest son-of-a-bitch I ever met!"
During our conversation over the course of that afternoon Ninette told me many tales of the hashish and opium festivals they held at Cefalu

Wow! Wonderful indeed! Hi Eric, it is a pleasure to meet you here at LAShTAL. Clearly your Grandmother was a remarkable and intelligent person. In those few sentences she was able to give you a great description of A.C. Yes, he was all those things and more, including no doubt, being a "rotton son-of-a-bitch" to some. You mention "many tales of hashish and opium" etc. Would you care to elaborate further on your conversation over the course of that afternoon with Ninnette? BTW, thank you so much for posting the photographs of Ninnette here. It is greatly appreciated.

93 93/93

themuhler - Apr 28, 2008 - 05:36 AM
Post subject:

[quote="phthah"]93,
[quote="themuhler"]"Would you care to elaborate further on your conversation over the course of that afternoon with Ninnette? [/quote]

Actually it was one extended descriptive tale of how the regular eating of hashish "fingers" and smoking of opium during Magick rituals and ceremonies led to her own insanity and during that conversation she mentioned and gave strong impressions of "other members" who seemed to her to be nuts before they ever got there. She didn't mention names, and didn't talk about the Magick involved. My impression was that she was trying to warn me about drug use, (during those years it was pretty obvious that I had taken that taxi around that block a few times too many myself) and that the potent combination of drug use, crazy people, occult practices, starvation, abandonment and four children took a serious toll on her, resulting in her losing all her children, going to an asylum in Switzerland to recover her shattered nerves. Other than the keeping of her Diary, she never practiced another "ritual" again.

After recuperation she lived as the housekeeper and caretaker for an older brother Gustave Fraux in Brittany, France until he died. She took over the house and lived there alone until her daughter Jeanette got her into the retirement home in Montredon mentioned in a previous post. She died there in the early nineties after my second trip to meet with her in 1988.

YT 93 Love & Ecstasee, Babee!

ihateswine - Apr 28, 2008 - 08:50 AM
Post subject: what up my man?

93 Eric,

Never imagined I'd see you on the Thelemic internets... what, you got too much free time on your hands now? We ain't traded no emails for months now... Welcome to the Monkey House that is lashtal.com

Chillin wit you in the Cool Kids' Room was one of the high points of NOTOCON for me. You gotta come to the next one; it's rumored to be in Seattle.

I'll be in your neck of the woods this fall; we need to grab a drink or five.

Keep jammin'

93, 93/93
Zack

themuhler - Apr 28, 2008 - 03:29 PM
Post subject: Re: what up my man?

[quote="ihateswine"] what, you got too much free time on your hands now? Welcome to the Monkey House that is lashtal.com

Keep jammin'

93, 93/93
Zack[/quote]

Hello Zack,

Free time is my specialty! I thought you knew that. It's what I work so hard (NOT) for! Be sure to call when in the BA. I always want to hear from the only person who frightened me at NOTOCON!

YT 93, Love & Ecstasee, Babee!
Pal Mule

phthah - Apr 28, 2008 - 06:19 PM
Post subject:

93 Eric,

themuhler wrote: › Actually it was one extended descriptive tale of how the regular eating of hashish "fingers" and smoking of opium during Magick rituals and ceremonies led to her own insanity

As I said, I think she was a remarkable lady. If for no other reason than the fact that she survived Cefalu! Anyway, thanks for the follow up.

93 93/93

ihateswine - Apr 28, 2008 - 09:58 PM
Post subject: Re: what up my man?

themuhler wrote: › Hello Zack,

Free time is my specialty! I thought you knew that. It's what I work so hard (NOT) for! Be sure to call when in the BA. I always want to hear from the only person who frightened me at NOTOCON!

YT 93, Love & Ecstasee, Babee!
Pal Mule

LOL yeah. HB was like, "you scared the hell out of my drummer".

bwahahaha.

See ya around Bro,
Zack

themuhler - Apr 29, 2008 - 01:19 AM
Post subject: Re: what up my man?

[quote="ihateswine"]. HB was like, "you scared the hell out of my drummer".

Zack[/quote]

I'm a pianist. But you knew that.

Eric

themuhler - Apr 29, 2008 - 01:20 AM
Post subject: Re: what up my man?

[quote="ihateswine"]. HB was like, "you scared the hell out of my drummer".

Zack[/quote]

I'm a pianist. But you knew that.

Eric

ihateswine - Apr 29, 2008 - 01:34 AM
Post subject: Re: what up my man?

themuhler wrote: ›

ihateswine wrote: › . HB was like, "you scared the hell out of my drummer".

Zack

I'm a pianist. But you knew that.

Eric

Now see what becomes of hashish and opium parties?

Brain on Drugs.

paperroute50 - May 04, 2008 - 06:21 PM
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wonderful pictures of Ninette. She turned out to be a true survivor indeed. Thank you so much Mr. Muhler!

mikepalm8 - May 05, 2008 - 10:40 AM
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According to John Symonds’ biography of Aleister Crowley (The Beast 666) published in 1997 Ninette Shumway died around 1930 (p.453). From the pictures uploaded by Mr Muhler, this was clearly not the case.

paperroute50 - May 05, 2008 - 04:41 PM
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It also stated that Leah had died in the 50's when it has been conformed, I tihnk, that she died in 1975 in Switzerland.

mikepalm8 - May 05, 2008 - 08:31 PM
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Just to labour the point a little further, Martin Booth’s biography of Aleister Crowley (A Magick Life) published in 2000 also stated that Ninette died in the early 1930’s (p 414).
I wonder what evidence these biographers used when making such claims. Perhaps in this case they just relied on hearsay.

paperroute50 - May 06, 2008 - 12:45 PM
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I imagine that when someone vanishs from the scene rumor says that they passed on. I guess if every Crowley biographer thoroughly researched the lives of all of Crowley's deciples it would take a lifetime.

the_real_simon_iff - May 06, 2008 - 03:44 PM
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93!
And please don't forget: Any surviving, sane and healthy lover of Crowley would destroy the often preferred image of "all his lovers committed suicide, went insane or died as alcoholics/druggies"... so maybe some biographers were not so eager to find out more...
Love=Law
Lutz

lashtal - May 06, 2008 - 04:16 PM
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You know what, Lutz? I think you've got it right there. An ex-partner of Crowley living to a healthy and happy old age isn't particularly good for publicity...

Having said that, there is at least some evidence that Symonds, in particular, felt the need to protect the identity of at least one of Crowley's ladies: he disguised Leah's name behind a pseudonym in the first editions of his biography.

SteveCranmer - May 08, 2008 - 02:31 PM
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lashtal wrote: › You know what, Lutz? I think you've got it right there. An ex-partner of Crowley living to a healthy and happy old age isn't particularly good for publicity...

This also brings to mind Rose's "downfall," which many point to AL III:43 as a prophecy fulfilled. But isn't there evidence that she had at least a few good years of post-asylum recovery (and even remarriage)?

I think there's another thread about this somewhere, but I can't find it.

Steve

AnkhGoddess - May 10, 2008 - 10:21 PM
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It is quite the honor to be introduced to you, Mr. Muhler. I have heard many a wonderful thing about you from many a person here at the Sekhet-Maat Lodge here in Portland when they met you at NOTOCON. It's truly a pleasure to have you here on the board.

On this somewhat similar note, is anyone reading this thread at all familiar with a grandson by the name of Richard Blackwell? He came to a local pagan shop here in town claiming to be a grandson of Crowley's himself, and looking to sell the two owners his line of essential oils as a product that the store now regularly carries, which I've used, and are not bad in their own right. Yet, a Google search turns up nothing on him, save for information regarding a fashion critic by the same name, which is not the same Richard Blackwell I'm speaking of. According to the storekeeper, he authored at least one occult book (who's name escapes me, though I saw her personal autographed copy there in the store) before closing up the occult shop he owned for a time here in Portland, Oregon, has since converted to Buddhism, and is either in the process of moving overseas or has already done so. That, however, is all the information I have on him, and none of it truly speaks to whether he was a grandson of Crowley's or not. Can anyone on the board vouch for whether he was a grandson of Crowley's or not?

Stephanie

h2h - May 10, 2008 - 11:10 PM
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THE CROWLEY PERFUMES:
The beloved recursant of the Aquarian Age, and immanent scholar of tantric lore, "Saint Aleister" Crowley did dabble extensively in perfumery. Using musks and other sexually active fragrances available in his day, he created the following magickal-sexual perfumes, made from exclusive formulas handed down from Winnifred Otis-White, one of his "Scarlet Women", to Dr. Richard Blackwell, professional perfumer, and grandson of her and Crowley, and presented here:

http://www.cranemoon.com/descript.htm

----
Never heard of Winnifred Otis-White, much less Richard Blackwell.

Crowley dabbled in... perfumery?

AnkhGoddess - May 10, 2008 - 11:32 PM
Post subject:

Never heard of Winnifred Otis-White, much less Richard Blackwell.

Crowley dabbled in... perfumery?[/quote]

Hahaha....

Weeellll....

He dabbled (more than dabbled, really!) in art and poetry, too, two fairly romantic art forms in their own right....so why not? Then again, a great many of the oils mentioned on the site are created for the sake of having a rather great time with the gender of your choice, and he certainly was known for that! Wink

Interestingly, the line of oils carried in the store that are made by him are a line called "Red Dragon" essential oils, not Crane Moon . All of them are simply your basic essential oils, with no claims made to get one laid or do anything else, for that matter! Still, though, I've found some rather unusual oils in the line that denote to me that he does, at least on some level, know what he's doing....I came across galangal oil the other day when I went to the store seeking ingredients for Abramelin Oil that I was making. Perhaps he carries two different lines of oils? Hard to say...

And I would be curious to learn more about Winnifred Otis-White. I'll do some searching for her, and see what I can come up with

Stephanie

lashtal - May 10, 2008 - 11:54 PM
Post subject:

h2h wrote: › Crowley dabbled in... perfumery?

Ruthvah.

themuhler - May 14, 2008 - 05:16 AM
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A [b][i]PERFUME[/i] [/b]salesman? Now I've heard it all... Some people have (rarely) said my music stinks, but I've never sold perfume, thank nature.

YT 93, Love & Ecstasee, Babee

Eric

sethur666 - May 14, 2008 - 03:26 PM
Post subject: Perfumery

93

It is perhaps worth noting that perfumery is one of many arts that grew out of alchemy, and this approach is still carried out by Black Phoenix Alchemy Labs. who include £hemetic alchemy" as one of their inspirations.

Please note that this is NOT a plug, all i know of them is that their perfumes are amazing and a cult on the internet, where collections of their tiny samplet bottles sell for considerable amounts on ebay!

http://www.blackphoenixalchemylab.com/

So less astoshment that Crowley dablled in perfumery, please!

93 93/93

Steve W

h2h - May 14, 2008 - 04:44 PM
Post subject: RE: Perfumery

Dabbing it on profusely is not the same as dabbling in perfumery.

themuhler - May 15, 2008 - 05:00 AM
Post subject: Re: Perfumery

[quote="sethur666"]

So less astoshment that Crowley dablled in perfumery, please!

93 93/93

Steve W[/quote]

Actually I wasn't astoshed at all that Crowley dablled, diblled, mastered or participated in perfumeration. I was astoshed that the grandson claimant was a perfume salesman.

Eric

YT 93, Love & Ecstasee, Babee! (No alchemee or perfumee, though thanks, no matter how astoshing it might be)