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Magick - Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi
Freeman - Apr 04, 2007 - 06:55 AM
Post subject: Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi
After reading Mysticism and The Yoga Aphorisms of Patanjali, there appears to be a very clear-cut and scientific method of attaining Dhyana and Samadhi.

How often are these states reached? Is the annual meeting of the Subject/Object United Club packed?

I don't necessarily want a poll, but I would be interested in reading if members have reached these states.
tazadinath - Apr 04, 2007 - 11:02 AM
Post subject:
In my practice of Zazen, I identify all 'external' and 'internal' processes and events as occurring within the 'clear mind', conditioned and contained by my clarity of consciousness.
"Kinhin" or walking meditation helps me arrive at a state of mild absorption with the least effort, and in a prolonged state of absorption 'flashes' begin to occur. Kind of like brief mild epileptic white-outs that heighten clarity and deepen absorption.
Subect/Object fall away as all external stimulus is sensed as subjective and the 'world' becomes your body. It feels like being tied to a lead corpse being compressed by tremendous force. Passing beyond this state I start to experience what I call the 'house of cards' universe, where I begin to sense every experience as depending or leaning on every other condition (dharma means prop), as I can only sense a self through the use of an ego. As the conditions supporting ego fall away all action is realized as futile including the conditions surronding 'love', but you will also realize that as 'it's the only game in town' you can either (A) pass into nirvana or (B) slowly re-construct your 'self' again. I took me 3 hours to get to this state and about 3 or 4 days to get 'right' or re-constructed again.
Anyway that's as far as I got.
Good Luck!
Aum418 - Apr 04, 2007 - 05:10 PM
Post subject:
93,

I recommend Raja Yoga by Swami Vivekananda - if I had to pick one book on Yoga it would be this. Vivekananda combines the practicality of Patanjali's system with the amazingly lucid insights of the Neo-Vedanta attitude combined with some Tantra. In other words, I can find almost nothing that contradicts the Thelemic view in here (except sometimes when he has a little sentence with some subjective opinion or something which contradicts 'There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt' but they are negligible).

Liber E is a practical document based upon the ideas of Ashtanga (Eight-limbed)/Raja Yoga, starting with Asana to Dharana. Dharana practices can carry you from Dharana to Dhyana to Samadhi.

I also find the practice of Anapanasati (Breath-awareness) to be very good in two ways: In meditation, say at teh beginning of a meditation, it makes the mind very tranquil which is why this practice is considered Samatha in Buddhist traditions. Secondly, during the day it allows for much more mindfulness (the breath is always with you and therefore becomes a constant reminder of awareness and such instead of letting automatic superego/id take control of actions). In this way you can cultivate a sort of awareness/mindfulness that remains throughout the day - a discipline of self-control that Thelemites would find most useful I believe (Crowley says "About 90 % of Thelema, at a guess, is nothing but self-discipline" and "What is true for every School is equally true for every individual... Success in life, on the basis of the Law of Thelema, implies severe self-discipline" in Magick Without Tears). If Success is your proof, it is obvious that hte Buddha was successful and one of the pracitces he encourages at many times is this practice of Anapanasati or Breath-awareness. Combining this with spouts of sitting meditation in the style of Raja yoga/Patanjali will make your mind much more aware, clear and powerful than you thought it could be.

The key, in my experience, is persistence and being without "lust of result." This indominatible Will-power and detachment from 'success' and 'fruits of action' and 'results' and 'powers' and 'trances' makes one 'progress' much further than one without firm resolution and one who is attached to getting some kind of specific 'result.'

I hope some of this convoluted message can help others atatin to clarity and one-pointedness of their Mind to aid in the accomplishment of their Wills.

65 & 210,
111-418

http://iao131.cjb.net
tazadinath - Apr 05, 2007 - 06:22 AM
Post subject:
Aum418
Great material on your site!
Integrating the teachings of TBOTL with Therevada Buddhism is the great frontier.
I found lots of detailed material in wikipedia on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidanas

I found "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" one of the most useful books for understanding higher trance states.
"Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida is by far the best Zen primer I've read.
"Doctrine Of The Buddha" by Grimm is the best philosophical outline of the 4 noble truths I've come across.
Aum418 - Apr 05, 2007 - 03:14 PM
Post subject:
tazadinath wrote: › Aum418
Great material on your site!
Integrating the teachings of TBOTL with Therevada Buddhism is the great frontier.
I found lots of detailed material in wikipedia on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhyana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayatana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Nidanas

I found "The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna" one of the most useful books for understanding higher trance states.
"Zen Training" by Katsuki Sekida is by far the best Zen primer I've read.
"Doctrine Of The Buddha" by Grimm is the best philosophical outline of the 4 noble truths I've come across.


I would recommend any spurtle that came out of Ramakrishna's mouth - he truly 'walked the walk.' Zen meditations I have found are useful but have a different 'goal' than Ashtanga yoga. There are certain meditations all about remaining mindful in the moment which are useful for that, and there are certain meditations which attempt to attain to higher/altered states of consciousness more (but the key, ironically, is to work without 'lust of result' for these).

Thank you for your flattery - some praise or criticism every now and then actually lets me know someone reads somethign I wrote! Great encouragement...

65 & 210,
111-418

http://iao131.cjb.net
tazadinath - Apr 06, 2007 - 05:25 AM
Post subject:
aum418
I know EXACTLY what you're saying about Zen. Sekida actually discusses the trance states associated with Zen/Dhyana. I've had horrid experiences with spontaneous trance since I was 4, and of the thousands of books I've read on Occult/Eastern thought he was the only author who had a handle on it.
After having re-read 'Yoga for Yellow-bellies' i'm convinced that the Dhyana topic should be the biggest thread on this whole site.
"The Doctrine of the Buddha" by Grimm is a bad translation from the German but worth the trouble....very hard to get.
May the Moon of Yesod shine upon your meditations.
Cheers.
jtm - Jun 10, 2007 - 10:44 PM
Post subject: Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi
Freeman wrote: ›

I don't necessarily want a poll, but I would be interested in reading if members have reached these states.


Since this is a rather straightforward, question, I'll step up and say that I believe I have. I'm not an initiate and cannot put my practice into any category or give it a name. I do yoga, meditation, pranayama, and am a 'tantric thinker'... meaning I find moments throughout the day in which to integrate things as distant from me as possible into what I'm doing. I have a long history with kabbala, magick, astrology, gnosis, etc. as study subjects, but I am not a ritualist.

In my 30's I found that I was attaining control over my orgasm 'reflexes', perhaps as a result of practicing bandha's, pranayama, end through a sheer enjoyment of sex and a desire that it last as long as possible. Most importantly perhaps is that I began to enjoy the electrification of my partner to a state of frenzy even more enjoyable than the physical pleasure. And so this made ejaculatory orgasm a potential bring down. I got 'higher and higher', and discovered 3 or 4 new types of multiple orgasm, but rarely ejaculated.

What happened was that after one particularly energetic week of hot showers and washing of my partner, long erotic massages for her, and sex, my partner turned her energy fully to me, as she was exhausted. I was able to focus deeply on full body relaxation along with the typical 'spreading' of orgasmic energy up my spine with each potential contraction.

My insights into this are that the keys to this achievement of higher states are

- relaxation
Deeper as arousal grows greater. The natural tendency is the opposite. But when relaxed, arousal continues to grow, indefinitely. Eventually it turns from 'hot' to 'cool', and things begin to change drastically.

- focus on the partner
This is for me, so I can't generalize. Results are impossible without the full involvement of a partner on all levels. This includes the personal/psychic level. This work cannot (IMHO) be done with a 'professional' or 'consort'.

- control
If you're young, start a program of kundalini yoga, including studying the locks. Learn to separate the 3 different muscle groups in your groin.

- prostate
Sorry, gents, but this is the secret key which explains the secrecy through the ages. The key to the kingdom is in your bum. Get over it, clean it, and explore. Further instruction is generally not necessary on this one. But there's plenty out there if you like. The prostate is the male equivalent of the Grafenberg spot, where the glans is the equivalent of the clitoris. Involvement of this technique during practice is not absolutely necessary, but neither is sex for that matter Cool The highest potential is to be reached though by including all potent ingredients. At the very least, having opened this gateway and 'experienced' the flow from the root is a help in studing self-control, and what happens when the channel opens up.

Since this experience our practice has focused on achieving this goal with each other predictably. We have only begun to think about full-duplex partner practice, however (i.e. yab-yum) as we find the basics of one-way technique to be enough of a challenge.

A final point on gender, and I'll put it bluntly for brevity :
For a woman, a 'regular' orgasm is analogous to a typical male ejaculatory (boring) orgasm. And most women don't even get there in our sick society. For a woman, a full-body, ejaculatory orgasm is like a full-body, ejaculatory orgasm for men. Most men never get there, a sorry few women. The ultimate gnostic experience is the same for both. Beyond ejaculation, for the energy can build continuously.

It's my firm understanding that this is the beginning of the path that leads to self-reincarnation through insemination, to ascension, and to many other 'legendary' possibilities. I'm working on it. When I master it, I'll visit you all in your dreams to confirm Wink
sonofthestar - Jun 10, 2007 - 11:52 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Most of my yoga success, was achieved in my pre teens believe it or not.
I was not even practicing any form of yoga then, except a mantra type play where I would repeat a word over and over again just for the eventual strange effect of it’s culmination on my mind. I did not even know the word “mantra” back then. The word I remember was “book” most of the time. But also “too-too-tail” now and then.
All this would take place in my “toy room” whilst I was playing with my spoiled child accumulations. In the middle of my play, all of a sudden my body would begin to vibrate, the chakra blooms- accompanied to various color dances, before my mind’s eye, and outside of it, were most pronounced. I dare say I even levitated an inch and ½ off the floor once, and only once! I also experienced the circular energy pattern of the Chinese system using the tongue as the connection point, --also accompanied with vibrations. All the various states were achieved for about three years of my pre teen life, before I had opened one book on yoga. I also recollect I use to spin around in circles until I dropped, and this would often bring on such states as mentioned by the Yoga teachers.
Once I got interested in the ladies, it all went away during the teenage life; until the late teens when I engaged in Jana yoga up and into my mid twenties. But it was a totally different kind of experience. I much preferred it when it happened as it did when I had no idea what it was! being totally ignorant of Yoga.

I am going to start it all up again though, but not yet.

Love is the law, love under will.
sonofthestar - Jun 11, 2007 - 02:11 AM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Now we might wonder, how the experience of women would set back my progress, and I will present my “scientific” theory in a short and concise way.

When I really “noticed” women (in a sexual way) I was just embarking upon my teens. Yet the sexuality of it was always overshadowed by “falling in Love” to such a strong degree that it actually screwed up any chance for a sexual relationship to develop. We are talking “Awe Struck” in love here, starting the first day of grammar school. My whole entire grammar school days is right out of my favorite moving picture show “Melody”. If you have not seen this move, it is the must see move of all time! Best movie ever made.
And since the inevitable result of being in love in grammar school is in most cases termination (people move away and go to other schools) the results were a devastating blast and shock to my mental and spiritual progress. But it was not quite enough to stop the premature awakening of the states of mind and body that the various yoga texts describe. Also, those early and profound experiences were not built upon with other practices; I just experienced one after the other and enjoyed it. I was early on though, fully into the Occult life of ritual type workings, but these were of a very negative nature.
If only I had had the instruction early on that I know now! But we cannot regret.
And it is the regret of lost loves, all throughout my grammar school and high school years that injured my psyche so greatly that all such experiences of the spontaneous kind stopped, until the culmination of the Jana Yoga period.
So Jtm, I would have been much better off had I met a tantric initiatrix in my early grammar school years! and not been shot through and through by Cupid’s arrow that proved deadly to the heart they enflamed so, and thus attacking the mind with severe melancholy of the most dreadful kind.
But such forces that have worked against me, might have slowed me down, but will not stop me!

Love is the law, love under will.
Uni_Verse - Jun 11, 2007 - 05:11 AM
Post subject:
When I first read Book IV I thought...

"Wow, so I do this and eventually I will reach such and such a state"

In practice I have not found it so clear cut.

As for what happens to me regularly....

Note: percentages are possibility, not average occurance

95 percent of the time, my eyelids turn white and I feel a strong connection to everything.
It happens enough that eating meat is an uncomfortable experieince.
Part of the reason I am always sure to thank an animal for its sacrifice before consuming it.
Also, because I see it as a sacirifce of the animals form, in exchange for energy so it can "latch on" for enlightenment

10 percent of the time, my eyelids turn green and I feel a sense of purpose.
There is some grand puzzle to which I am a piece.
An important one, in the way that I can conciouslly cause things to change.

5 percent of the time, my eyelids turn red and I feel a sense of overwhelming power.
The universe is mine to bend and create.
I am the lord and ruler of all.

All other times, my eyelids remain black.
My sense of self is totally lost.
Point moving across infinite space.

That is just the results of my "meditation" as is defined by the layman : "absence of thought."

There are other exercises that I do, but expounding upon them can be saved for another time.

ADDENDUM:
When I look to "meditate" what I most often do is this :
Breathing in , the words "INNER PEACE" flow inside me
Breathign out, the words "NEGATIVITY" flow out

ADDENDUM to the ADDENDUM:

1 percent of the time I have "visions" (dream like states)
TreeDragon7 - Jun 11, 2007 - 06:13 AM
Post subject:
When i was young, my martial arts training let me get to meditative states early that I now envy. They topped far less treacherous mountains but had summits i experienced much at. These day I find it tougher and I dont know if i can attain a newer and greater enlightenment state.

I do know a couple of simple rules however.

You always need that momemetum of just starting the bloody work. Thats it. The spirit is supposed to do the rest eventually. It's nature is to climb . . .

JRA Exclamation
jtm - Jun 11, 2007 - 11:56 AM
Post subject:
TD7 - very well put. We can all 'start now'.

Also, everyone's (seemingly) echoing of the easier-when-I-was-younger sentiment resonates with me as well, even to the point of not really knowing what I was doing. I now know that what I was doing when I was 17 was practicing for astral flight through visualization. I still hope to get (back) to the astral travel at some point.

Uni_Verse - your descriptions ring along with my experiences. I love you way you put it in terms of colors in your eyes. And your comment about meat I found particularly resonant. While I'm still not a vegetarian, any time I come out of an experience now (precious few times), my diet, daily habits, and mindset change drastically for days or weeks. I feel that I find myself beautiful, I usually go without coffee or other intoxicants for a few days afterward, generally out of a 'lack o' wanna'. Meat just seems heavy and overly taxing to the system, let alone the 'ethical' burdens. Again, not a vegetarian, but at those times it seems that eating a sentient being's muscles is a precious thing that should only be done when needed. I tend to exercise more and want to make love more.

But then this fades off, the coffee (et al) comes back into my life, and I 'go back to work'. It's a tricky balance. One day maybe my wife and I can retire and formally become ngakpas and practice all the time.
Uni_Verse - Jun 11, 2007 - 02:41 PM
Post subject:
Many things are generally easier to learn when you are younger.

Your mind has yet to become set in a particular method of behavior.

Also, you become more entrenched in "consensual" reality the older you get.

Though I am not a vegetarian I do not eat much meat.

Especially not red meat (that seems to be the one that weighs me down the most).

Chicken I eat on a semi-regular basis.

JRA makes a very important point.

You cannot rush or expect anything. You must be totally free.

Unassuaged of purpose, free from the lust of result.

If you cannot attain that your progress will be slow if non-existant.

As far as climbing the tree goes... I follow that same flow.

Often things coming to me while I meditate that I feel a NEED to do.
jw - Jun 11, 2007 - 03:05 PM
Post subject:
TreeDragon7 wrote: › When i was young, my martial arts training let me get to meditative states early that I now envy.


Might it be the youthfulness, and not necessarily the training? My very first meditative experiences (I think I was around 11-13) put me in touch with a lucid dreamworld immediately. I could reconnect with this same "landscape" on subsequent practice with ease. Starting up again from scratch years later I could muster only basic symbols, static images. Now starting again two decades from my first experiences I find it difficult to visualize even the basic tattawas as anything more than conceptual blurs with fleeting moments of focus.
Uni_Verse - Jun 11, 2007 - 03:48 PM
Post subject:
As we grow older

Our visualaization skills

Go the way of imaginary friends

Sad

From disuse
anpi - Jun 11, 2007 - 04:03 PM
Post subject:
I've got the Chinese system of kungfu, chi kung and zazen to work better for myself than hatha yoga, pranayama and dharana taught by Crowley. Part of it may be because I've had first hand teaching on some of the Chinese techniques instead of trying to learn it only from books, but I also think that the more passive or neutral attitude of zazen may work better for the nervous system I currently own than the more active Dharana meditation.

In any case, I don't think I've yet got Dhyana or Samadhi as defined by Crowley from just sober meditation. I've get lesser trance states, a feeling of great well-being and similar nice benefits though.
jtm - Jun 11, 2007 - 04:53 PM
Post subject:
I find it very helpful to study the various descriptions, names, etc.. given to various levels of consciousness by different traditions. It's helped me piece together a conception of 'where I'm at', and 'where I've been'. Of course, no tradition 'has it right'... since this is all experiential.

Hinduism/yoga describe things one way, Buddhism another, Crowley another, John Lilly, Timothy Leary, etc... all are helpful.

One thing is for sure, once I started seeing results, it was unmistakeable.
sonofthestar - Jun 11, 2007 - 07:13 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

As far as diets are concerned, in their use for Yoga systems of various kinds, I’ll throw this in. I might have mentioned some of these things in a post long ago, but I am putting them out in connection to the topics touched upon in this thread.


A few years back, when I was practicing some Chinese methods of Yoga, I lived for three months on a diet of Taro roots, a wide verity of mushrooms, Chinese herb soups, and Ginseng roots;. that, and no thing but that, was the stuff of my diet. It seemed I had energy to burn! And it also seemed that it had a big part to play in the Yoga, though I cannot define it other than “rarefying” the organic composition of the body in some way.
Yes, it did indeed appear to be a very important and crucial aspect of the Yoga.
The states achieved by such Yoga, was at least for me, not quite like the Hindu systems at all. It was more like some never ending awakening that could not be marked by “illuminated states” of any particular kind. It was also building up great physical strength that my friends were quite amazed at.

It was no great feat to gear up to such a strict diet, as I had been a vegetarian for twenty years prior to embarking upon it.

One other strange thing is that just when I felt or could sense “the break thru” lo and behold, some woman would enter the picture! It is most definitely a test of some kind, and/or they find the sexual energies that result from the yoga irresistible. But this is a topic for another thread.

Love is the law, love under will.
GDPQT - Jun 13, 2007 - 11:26 PM
Post subject: Enlightenment
It is simple to reach these states, just let go of everything, and hold on for the ride... also letting go of everything means your OTO, your thelema, its all just a tool to get you past the crap of you... somthing along those lines... make sure you get over the fact that thelema isnt anything, its just a collection of thoughts that mean nothing.
jtm - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:31 AM
Post subject:
I agree with GDPQT. If everything is nothing, then that includes the teachings of Thelema and this website of course.

Not just being pedantic here. My experiences showed me this as the most important, stone cold, "obvious" truth... and most spiritual/mystical paths teach the same. Nibbana is nothingness. So to get there, or near there, you must let go. Letting go means being vulnerable to everything, to the point that nothing can knock you down.

Before being a happily married milquetoast suburbanite, I was a punk, a freak, a deviant. Went through all that. Wore a skirt, wore leather, hung with queens and bikers, did drugs... got it all out and realized it's all nothing. Not preaching this as a path, but it's how I came to the conclusion that there is nothing to be hung up about.

If you view parts of yourself, especially your 'desires', as things to be fearful about, ashamed of, guarded against, even in denial of, then you can never be free. A misunderstanding of Buddhism holds that 'all is suffering' so 'stop wanting things'. It's a start, but it's not quite it. If all is suffering, yet I can occasionally crack a smile, that makes me special. That makes me divine, somehow better than the whole rest of the project. If I can laugh at my own embarrassing, fearful paranoias about minutiae, I've conquered myself, and I'm a god. I've therefore conquered a god, in the realm of gods. I'm a supergod!

And yet, you must still be over yourself. After all, you're not alone. So it becomes humbling to have this experience.

Here is where you can now view your mind and body as a gift. Out of nothingness, you have a toy. And a very potent one at that. Treat it well for the time you have it, because it's the only toy you have, and 'after' that, you go back to nothing. Now you can concentrate on the one thing that is a link with nothingness, and thus samadhi, dyana, nibbana, satori, whatever - yourself. You are the temple.

Now go back to the traditions again in this mindset - the training, the techniques, the 'skillful means', magick, meditation, whatever. With this understanding, combined with practice, BAM. It will sneak up on you like a thief in the night. But this thief will find NOTHING, and you will laugh a cosmically HUGE laugh, the orgasm of attainment.

This happened to me on a Friday night, and I needed the day off Monday to continue to come to grips. Hard to go back to your 9-5 afterward.

No joshin'.

93 8 93
jtm - Jun 14, 2007 - 12:42 AM
Post subject:
And remember - AC himself intimated that it doesn't matter whether gods or spirits or this laptop exist. What matters is the programming that these tools achieve in your mind. The mind is the wild beast that must be tamed. Thus, Aiwass, Liber AL, Thelema, are all 'revealed truth', sure. But they are revealed by 'God' or the Secret Chiefs only as much as they are revealed by AC's personal metaprogramming.

It's my belief that the Aeon of Horus will find a race of humans capable of transcending their own metaprgramming tools. I've avoided ritual, memorization, and outright 'programmatic programming' all my life; and I've achieved things I'd never imagined, and which I'm still trying to contact people who share.

When I think of what's been accomplished 'with' these tools, even when they get in the way as I think they did with AC, I'm amazed. How much more amazing then are the possibilities of humans when they are able to work 'directly' on themselves without allegory and 'new languages' as discussed in the opening to Chapter III of Magick w/o Tears. I believe Horus will show us the functioning of language, and lay its 'magick' bare for us to understand, so that we may take up the next 'level' of magick.

so jah seh
GDPQT - Jun 14, 2007 - 04:25 AM
Post subject: thing to remeber
The thing here is one must realise that once the enlightened experience happens, there is an infinite amount more to experience... but it is all rubbish... there is no real point to it... i suggest to forget occultism, forget the oto, forget AC, forget thelema... crowley followed voices in his head, he never become and dismissed the voices... the voices must be dissmissed before you can go anywhere near what people call samadhi... and samadhi is only the beggining. Imagine a constant state of da ja vu Wink
kidneyhawk - Jun 14, 2007 - 04:32 AM
Post subject:
Quote: ›
Imagine a constant state of da ja vu


Have I read this post before? Laughing
kidneyhawk - Jun 14, 2007 - 04:35 AM
Post subject:
Curious, though, GDPQT, if you suggest dropping occultism, AC, Thelema etc. what is your draw to participating on the forums of Lashtal.com??? (When such things are the basis of our sundry dialogues)
sonofthestar - Jun 14, 2007 - 10:44 AM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.


GDPQT

Thelema, the OTO, the occult, means “no thing”
This automatically invokes of necessity its opposite: ---Thelema, the OTO, the occult means “some-thing”. -- If it is no thing, then it is something, and vise versa.

You define that no-thing it is not, as “no thing important, not necessary etc” in the context of your post as it is your will to do.
I define that something it is, as “something important, and necessary etc” in the context of my post as it is my will to do.

Thus is it well within the realm of validity that it is “No Thing To You” as you have defined Nothing.
Thus making it well within the realm of validity that it is “Something To Me” as I have defined Something.

Love is the law, love under will.
jtm - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:54 AM
Post subject:
Lest we wax pedantic :

I think all these things must be dropped, but in due time according to an individual's path. Example : I was attracted to the Buddhist path, i.e. formally becoming initiated, for a long time. Attracted to the OTO etc. as well. But when I had my first 'enlightenment' experience, one thing that came through (a lot came through!) was that all these 'schools', traditions, etc.... are like 'boot camps' for the brain. They are aimed at taking the proverbial 'anyone' from the average place in life (mentally, not socially, but that too) and tearing them down/reprogramming them so that they are ready for enlightenment. None is more 'correct' than the other.

Along the way, sometimes traditions get lost as even the leaders eventually are not 'experienced' in enlightenment. Such is the way of the Kali Yuga. In the modern age, there are spontaneous awakenings even, and many people are getting back onto the old paths, and more 'enlightened' ones surround us all the time.

So Thelema, OTO, etc... even Xtianity might be useful for many many people. I think if they're on the right path, they'll be able to go beyond all the languages and symbolism, to direct non-duality. After all, if experience is one-in-none, then all peripheral dressings are eventually meaningless.... unless you still reside in samsara. And even those who have glimpsed the light usually wind up back in samsara the next day.... and have to 'remember' that all is nothing, and yet stay devoted to the mortals they love.

This is a very interesting conversation. I get the feeling there actually may be a couple/few people on lashtal who have 'seen the light'. And the interaction between those people and the seekers of the light can be fruitful.

By all means, continue with your traditions, tools, etc.... if they bring you results. Use the results as the path. Personally, I'm not exactly a 'follower' of Thelema (or anything else for that matter!), but I find its tools and myths rich and useful, and its language very powerful in conversations such as these.
kidneyhawk - Jun 14, 2007 - 01:07 PM
Post subject:
Son of the Star & jtm-

It seems that the "lens" just keeps turning and adjusting to new perspectives and once we think we're this close to getting at "The Light," once we see something we can only CALL "The Light," the lens keeps whirling and turning and moving our vision into an Infinitude...

The "boot camp" the "tools" may very well be guides and helps to getting at a state of freedom and self-reliance but it also seems that many who have gone this course have developed a real LOVE for those tools. Not an "attachment" in the restrictive sense but a connection to the worth of such things pertaining to manifesting understanding of "The Light," even as it continues to unveil.

This makes me think of Crowley, the POET. But here I'm not refering to the voluminous verse penned by the Beast. I'm thinking of the Magick, the System of Magick, the "boot camp course," having been run through, having had layers of it polished through experience, returned to as one returns to a truly brilliant poem or symphony or composition-something which has the potential to continue unfolding. This ties, perhaps, a bit into the Christianity and Thelema thread where we've discussed a bit how certain texts, scriptures or POEMS go far beyond one time head-space reading and take on a living quality.

If AC was merely "boot camp" (or even the "war") then once one reaches a certain point, it would be time to bid a fond farewell to the "world of things." But "hidden Kings" move about in this world (LOL-see Hermann Hesse-"Journey to the East") and may well be mistaken for "soldiers."

Just like Christianity, Thelema and Crowley may not be everyone's cup of tea but I strongly suspect that there are those who have "gone beyond" and yet speak and love the potential in its living poetry not only as a means of conveyance to those "below" but to themselves. Perhaps not even distinguishing between the labors of the "newbie" and what it is they themselves might "be."

Just some morning thoughts ere the day begins....

93,

Kyle
sonofthestar - Jun 14, 2007 - 03:47 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Well of course, in the aspect of the practice of Jana for example, where every facet of concept ional thought and its workings- as to what is working, what it is working with etc,----is up for study, and even the study of “the study of what is being studied” -----we are not going to be saying to ourselves during the whole practice “ I Thelemite, now contemplate such and such; and after having contemplated such and such, I Occultist and Thelemite now contemplate such and such in its relationship to the such and such just contemplated.etc. Naturally not.! I would think that during the whole process, every conceivable thought, and thought process in it’s singularity and in it’s relation to other singular modes of conception and ideation are dissected and put beneath the microscope, including the microscope itself as the progression unfolds. for as long as it can be sustained.
It is not easy at all to describe the actual experiencing of the practice when practiced—than explaining, “what is being practiced”.

As I recall, Dr. Who still makes use of that sonic screwdriver wherever the hell he is! in or out of his travels.
Though he was always loosing it! was he not?

Love is the law, love under will.
Aum418 - Jun 14, 2007 - 04:32 PM
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I agree much more with jtm than GDBPQ or whatever. You cant just 'drop' all those things - they are only useful to drop when you know you can drop them. Thelema, Buddhism, OTO, and even Christianity help people understand themselves - even though they dont need to label themselves as Thelemites or OTO members or whatever to learn from them. I would say its mor elikely that you are kidding yourself when you try to 'drop everything.' Slowly detach yourself from dependencies and attachments, and I suggest not saying OTO, Crowley, and Thelema are useless when posting on a LAShTAL board - it seems hypocritical and self defeating.

65 & 210,
111-418
jtm - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:38 PM
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Kidneyhawk, you raise a good point. Any sacred scripture or gnostic work or whatever which I at first thought beautiful, mysterious, alluring, etc... and later learned from and gained 'real insight' with/through.... those works don't become 'useless' or 'nothing'. They take on a whole new light. It becomes miraculous to reflect on how lucky one is that these works were created, that they made it to me, and that I'm "lucky" enough to have the comfort and time in my life to have understood and benefitted from them. They go from mysterious to positively miraculous.

For me, Liber AL is one of those books, and I'm not really even a 'real' Thelemite, or Crowleyite. The bible is another, becoming more magical for me the less I associate it with Xtianity (!)

For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now.
kidneyhawk - Jun 14, 2007 - 05:52 PM
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jtm-!

I quite agree-! So very well put-!

Also: your final paragraph called to mind my practice of AC's Star Ruby in which the Junges are before and the Teletarchai behind...I began to feel the Teletarchai as very much the

Quote: ›
wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now


pushing through me like a currential wave, pushing towards the Junges which I began to see as my HGA, the

Quote: ›
inner buddha nature


or

Quote: ›
'true will'


or Christos.

Instead of setting oneself in the midst of some static circle, one evokes an awareness of tremendous movement, change and growth. And the ritual then nutures and fuels the psyche as it carries on into fields of experience beyond the "circle."

93,

Kyle
Aum418 - Jun 14, 2007 - 06:46 PM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: ›

For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now.


Indeed, I always thought of them like
*Buddha = the awakened nature/reality of all (behind attachment/ignorance) - the True Self (Yechidah) or solar awareness, in a way
*Sangha = the entire Universe - the Khu, especially those entities who are striving to attain and have attained.
*Dharma = Do what thou wilt (ones Will or Chiah) - also the beautiful joyful pure lawful harmonious motion of the Universe in all parts.


Further, an interesting thing I thought of while examining the Three Characteristics (of all existence):
*Impermanence (Anicca): All things are impermanent in themselves, this is directly related to Not-self/Anatta. The universe is dynamic - Thelema affirms this very much.
*Not-Self (Anatta): because all things in the phenomenal universe are impermanent, they have no constant independent identity. Thelema also affirms this in a sense, but also says Everything is self (you get to the same place where you stop distinguishing between Self & Not-Self). Thelema also acknowledges that one's nature as well as the universe's is to Go.
*Suffering/discontent (Dukkha): This is where Thelema is opposite. Buddha's first noble truth is always something like 'Existence is suffering.' AL II:9 says, "Existence is pure joy." This is the only one of the three Characteristics that appears in the universe when one has ignorance. Buddha also acknowledges in the 2nd & 3rd noble truths that suffering can be transcended/stopped through a definite method (his 8fold path), in a way: you could say Buddha's doctrine is about leaving suffering to come to that nirvanic joy (though its not 'joy' in any normal sense). Thelema might be more of a doctrine of 'coming to the joy' of the real nature. We all know - especially buddha - of th power of the mind. If we affirm that Existence is joy, we shall see joy in all places. If we think Existence is suffering, we will see suffering. Perhaps the 3 characteristics of Thelemic universe would be closer to Anicca, Anatta, and Joy.

210 & 65,
111-418
jtm - Jun 14, 2007 - 07:37 PM
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Interesting Aum. I've always thought that the difference between you and I over the concept of dukkha is essentially a matter of perspective. I think even Buddhist adepts would agree that 'with ignorance', one sees dukkha, or 'unsatisfaction'; whereas once one has attained a certain amount of wisdom, this turns to joy, even ecstasy is the way I like to think of it (because it is). So the impermanence and non-selfness of everything suddenly creates joy instead of suffering. Through programming the self, the same inputs produce the opposite outputs. That's magick in a nutshell for me.

The 'blazing star' for me is a symbol of the ecstatic person - the enlightened one. The 'skillful means' to this state is summed up by the caduceus, symbolizing 'kundalini' as I know it.
Aum418 - Jun 14, 2007 - 08:39 PM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: › Interesting Aum. I've always thought that the difference between you and I over the concept of dukkha is essentially a matter of perspective.

Told you we disagree less than youd think.

Quote: › I think even Buddhist adepts would agree that 'with ignorance', one sees dukkha, or 'unsatisfaction'; whereas once one has attained a certain amount of wisdom, this turns to joy, even ecstasy is the way I like to think of it (because it is). So the impermanence and non-selfness of everything suddenly creates joy instead of suffering. Through programming the self, the same inputs produce the opposite outputs. That's magick in a nutshell for me.

When there is 'no difference' made between self & not-self, there is no attachment and all becomes the play ("lila" in Hinduism) of the Godhead/Self.

Quote: › The 'blazing star' for me is a symbol of the ecstatic person - the enlightened one. The 'skillful means' to this state is summed up by the caduceus, symbolizing 'kundalini' as I know it.

I reminded of these images:




210 & 65,
111-418
sonofthestar - Jun 14, 2007 - 09:10 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Beautifully put Aum418!
You have elaborated much of the Buddhist-Thelemic linkage concerning things that are hinted at, but never fully explained in great length.

Such as this Buddhist eightfold path (right thought, action and so on) which is their proscribed and inclusive standard set of discipline and conduct for alleviating “suffering-sorrow” . In Thelema we have:The Grade of Master of the Temple 8 degree. “He is Master of the Law of Sorrow (Dukka).
So it seems that the methods, practices, and “Yoga of Thelema” as elaborated by AC just about has everything covered.
One "truly" attaining to the grade of Master of the Temple has no need to observe any such disciplines (ever mindfully) like the Buddhist, (less they lose their Dharma)_ as early on they would have integrated and mastered such disciplines and practices in the early training. This is the why and wherefore of the warning not to take the Oath of the Master of the Temple before one is ready. Looks like the old fellow knew what he was doing, when he took the best from various systems, purged it of the dross and incorporated it into his system of attainment built into the lower grades of his AA.

Yes, I would indeed advise all Thelemites to thouroughly study and practice of various Buddhist mental diciplines. If they have never looked into it they surely should!

Love is the law, love under will.
GDPQT - Jun 14, 2007 - 10:53 PM
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The reason for posting such an interesting point is that it was my personal experience, i joined the oto, and practiced thelema... i also practiced many other things... I met a true master along the way... I studied and practic ed with him, he showed me some interesting things, then i dismissed him... When the student is ready the master will dissapear. What or who is your master? The oto? thelema, crowley, your HGA... its all just distractions along the way to the path of enlighentment... you know when you are there for you will no longer need the tools, it will just happen, consciousness change will be done, its natural and how your mind works. Refreshing huh, tis good to let go of things, it cleanses your soul.

out of 100,000 people, about 10,000 get into alternative knowledge, out of these 10,000, 1000 start to live by this, out of 1000, 100 people really dedicate there lives to this... out of 100, 10 people actually find the right path, out of these 10 people 1 or 2 actually wake up. my experience... and most of the awake never even practiced the occult arts.

interesting huh

but believe what you want to beleive, i came on here to say a few things, now i will move on... take care people, life is prescious.
MichaelStaley - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:31 PM
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GDPQT wrote: › but believe what you want to beleive, i came on here to say a few things, now i will move on... take care people, life is prescious.

Portentous, moi?
Bye, troll.
sonofthestar - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:33 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

I take it then GDPQT, that you are "The Master Of Fly By Night Postings" and have dismissed yourself!
You could have at least given all of us some description of the Illumination you found to be the apex of attainment.

Love is the law, love under will.
runelogix - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:42 PM
Post subject:
GDPQT wrote: › The reason for posting such an interesting point is that it was my personal experience, i joined the oto, and practiced thelema... i also practiced many other things... I met a true master along the way... I studied and practic ed with him, he showed me some interesting things, then i dismissed him... When the student is ready the master will dissapear.


Wow. If I dismissed my teachers I wouldn't have any friends left. Or a job.

O.o
sonofthestar - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:44 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Sorry Michael! I think we posted at about the same time. Perhaps your response should have been the last reply to GDPQT.
He did though infuse something or nothing, or no thing or something into the thread that I think led to some interesting posts, somehow relating to something or other he commented on.

Love is the law, love under will.
kidneyhawk - Jun 14, 2007 - 11:51 PM
Post subject:
Well, Aum's image uploads are quite cool (but who can't like Mr. Gray?)

jtm's allusion to the Blazing Star reminded me of the Masonic Lodge with its checkerboard floor, in the center of which is the "Blazing Star." Setting aside the "official" Masonic commentary on the same, the implications of the "Mosaic pavement" (a world which is dualistic-and thereby providing the conditions for "Suffering") are contrasted against the 5-Pointed Star which erupts in the midst, opening into "ecstacy"-or vivid organic life. Also, the "suffering tiles" are Mosaic (Judeo Law) and the Blazing Star is "Christic" (Pentagrammaton), the tiles seperate, the Pentagram unites...

"First God Almighty comes with a thump on the head-then Jesus Christ with a balm to heal it."
-Blake
MichaelStaley - Jun 15, 2007 - 12:17 AM
Post subject:
sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › I think led to some interesting posts, somehow relating to something or other he commented on.

Yes, perhaps I was being unduly dismissive. My youthful exuberance is sometimes restrained by a cynicism beyond my years. Perhaps he wasn't a troll after all; just that I thought his parting shot a little contrived. I have never been one to shrink from rushing to conclusions; show me a top, and I'll cheerfully go over it.
jtm - Jun 15, 2007 - 03:53 AM
Post subject:
Say what you will, I think GDPQT has it about right with his statistics. He may even be a bit optimistic.

And his comment about most of the attainers never practicing occult arts I also tend to find true.

And Aum - I dig that pentagram!
sonofthestar - Jun 15, 2007 - 04:17 AM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

GDPQT might be back jtm. . It would at least be the courteous thing to do, considering he did not really try to explain what he replaced all the tools and props with, or what he found that allowed him to dispense with the tools. Perhaps it was or is an experience that you just cannot put into words. At least some specifics would have been welcome, rather than just telling people “Let it all go”. I happen to fancy the tools and props, and will continue to use them so long as they work for me.
I am sure, there is always that method beyond all methods; and I am sure it is as uniquely singular in its “thusness” as we are so disposed to work on it.


I think some of this below also touches in some way on Kidneyhawk’s Praxis question.
That many of the systems (and numerous offshoots of basic Hindu and Buddhist teachings) when expounding their particular method of attainment, either denote the various “mystical states” such as the Big S and D, as being just signpost to chart one’s way, or as the goal in and of itself to be achieved, (such as always abiding in that ever aware state of absolute bliss. Of course we have been warned not to take the signpost for the place of destination.
The gist of the matter as I have come to understand it, ( I am far from an expert in the Hindu and Buddhist schools of thought, and am quite rusty in many areas of it) is that as one progresses, each particular state of mystical experience will become more pronounced as one continues on the path. For instance, the big S and D will become bigger S’s and D’s on the way of our going. Meaning of course that a static state however lovely, is not a state of true spirituality, If that were the case, we would be no thing other than some gray bearded unchanging sour puss quite content with ourselves in our state of odious omnificence. Thus we would be forever damning ourselves.

Now one may indeed reach a particular mystic state of consciousness where all the others are continuingly unfolding into bigger and bigger blooms of expansive awareness.
Thus one’s whole living experience is one never-ending life invoking orgasm of mental and spiritual growth! That I think is what Thelema has to offer with its eclectic beauty.
There is something in it for every aspiring adept, since it is all-inclusive in its scope. This would be applicable for those just embarking upon the path, and continuing from there.
Most every post yet has touched upon this in some way or the other, but I feel we have only scratched the surface.

Love is the law, love under will.
jtm - Jun 15, 2007 - 03:33 PM
Post subject:
Son - your description of a 'static' spiritual state reminds me of some Buddhist descriptions of the various orders of beings, from the lower hungry ghosts etc and animals, through humans to demi-gods and gods. Being human is seen to be rather ... 'attractive' as it offers an escape from the blindness and ignorance of the lower forms, yet offers dynamy and change, unlike anything experienced by the gods. Because gods and even demi-gods are in a sense 'static'. They are what they are, beyond time.

So yes, experiences of the 'big S' and 'big D' (I love that) are only so blissful because they are bracketed by the 'dukkha' of life that goes on before and after them. As one becomes more and more enlightened, I'm afraid one becomes more and more tenuously associated with this reality and may just 'vanish' from the point of view of the rest of us.

This I believe is how humans 'ascend'. And if anyone's read Gravity's Rainbow, I'm pretty sure it's what happened to Tyrone Slothrop at the end. But I'm no expert.
WillisNightwood - Jun 15, 2007 - 05:35 PM
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93,
Finding myself behind the curve in the concepts and practices of raja yoga I have dived head first into crowley's yoga material. It is a lot of material to digest but have basically figured out what to follow.

1. Asana: The pose I have adopted is the Dragon which in Liber E it is suggested to begin with half an hour to an hour which I find impossible in the beginning. I started with only 5 to 10 minutes and by adding slowly in time I have built up to being able to sit vaguely comfortable for 30 minutes. Although coming out of the pose I am almost completely paralyzed from the calves down and it takes some time before I have feeling and movement in my feet. I am slightly worried I might be doing damage to myself.

2. Pranayama: Liber E suggests alternate nostril breathing, Book 4 suggest mantras, and Liber RV has a whole host of exercises. From what I have gathered, physical benefits aside, the important part is to just regulate the breath as to still the mind and emotions. As such I just use the 4-fold breath counting in, hold, out, hold. Usually after 15 minutes of this I am able to stop counting and the breath stays regular. After about 20 minutes a lightness enters into my body and the mind seems to expand from the small place I usually think and reside in.

3. Dhrana: Liber E suggests using the tattwas then more complex shapes and moving fly wheels etc. Book 4 refers to these as "preliminary exercises" and suggests the first exercises should be on the chakras then later suggests the meditations in Liber HHH.

Obviously I should begin with preliminary exercises to prepare for the more complex work but not sure what that would entail. Do you just concentrate upon the chakras themselves? With the addition of the appropriate mantra such as LAM? Or fix our attention upon the pictures of the chakras? From the material to achieve Dhyana your attention must be fixed solely upon something and nothing else, but with the chakras being multiple do you just focus on one or just continuesly move up and down them?
Azidonis - Jun 15, 2007 - 07:57 PM
Post subject:
WillisNightwood wrote: › 1. Asana: The pose I have adopted is the Dragon which in Liber E it is suggested to begin with half an hour to an hour which I find impossible in the beginning. I started with only 5 to 10 minutes and by adding slowly in time I have built up to being able to sit vaguely comfortable for 30 minutes. Although coming out of the pose I am almost completely paralyzed from the calves down and it takes some time before I have feeling and movement in my feet. I am slightly worried I might be doing damage to myself.


93,

In _Hathayoga Pradipika_ is a position called Savasana, which is generally recommended as a "cool down" posture.

93 93/93,

Az
WillisNightwood - Jun 15, 2007 - 08:00 PM
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Yes I make use of the corpse pose after asana. Or rather I lie there and wait on the pain to pass and feeling to return. lol
jtm - Jun 15, 2007 - 08:19 PM
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Folks - I would strongly advise actaully studying yoga. Reading your reports kind of scares me. I don't know anyone who's studied yoga for any less than 6 monhts who holds ANY asana for 15 minutes. This strikes me as a bit like starting to learning climbing by hanging yourself off a cliff from a rope. If you rise with numbness and pain, then you're not ready for that exercise!

Granted, I haven't read all of Crowley's material in this area, but keep in mind it's digested by a westerner who only studied these practices for mere WEEKS. Not months, but weeks. I'd advise a class or at least a book.... some of the most crucial aspects of pranayama and yoga, etc... do not come across well in writing. There is not substitute for a qualified teacher. You won't regret it.
Wizardiaoan - Sep 05, 2007 - 04:39 AM
Post subject:
444

I thought I would relate a Samadhi I had due to its particular nature: that entities appeared and that the method by which it was attained was through music, rather than by ritual, sex, or yoga.

My Samadhi at 21:
I was just familiar with the general literature of Magick at this time, being about a year or two into it. I was familiar with most of Crowley’s work by then. The night started off with about 5 of us taking 2 tabs of LSD each (these tabs had ankh’s & hearts on them). I had probably done LSD on 50 or so previous occasions by this time. As the LSD set in, I recall my friend Matt looking like the old witch pointing with his right hand the Way down the Path of Initiation. I think this was just more of a spontaneous magickal formation of some ancient Lovecraftian energies present, I’m not even sure he pointed or anything.

After some time passed, the 5 of us began free jamming musically. I was on a fairly cheap Casio keyboard, and the rest of the guys were on acoustic guitars, though I think one of them may have been drumming with sticks upon a table. From soon after the point we began to when the Samadhi occured is just one of trance in my mind; I think we jammed continuously for 3-4 hours straight. The nature of my keyboard playing stood out among the guitars, and was largely the creative driving force. It was often fast and frantic with large pitch changes. There was really no conscious magickal formula being followed (I was the only one that familiar with Magick there), the rapturous energy within us was just being naturally released the best way we could.

Sometime during the rapture the Samadhi occured, though I didn’t notice it happened until it was over. There was a complete annihilation of Self and consciousness to 0, or Nothingness. I think this state lasted for about 3 seconds. The first thing I remember is my awareness (soul spark perhaps) descending a dark black shaft. Then at the same time I regained consciousness the decision was made to laugh ecstatically at what had just occured. My sight regained me and I saw my friend Matt laughing just as I was. The spell seemed to be further broken by us both taking our individual pleasures (by laughing) upon what had just transpired.

Next, quite surprisingly to me at the time and clear as day, two etheric entities appeared of The Stellar Wisdom: perhaps 10’ in front of me, a white positive one was on my right, and a black negative one was on my left. The black negative one seemed below me (by sovereignty/quality of mind), and the white positive one seemed for a second above me (by the same), but looking it in the eyes I realized my spine/self was a bit weak in awe, and then I did Will my sovereignty over them. I rather wanted the Vision to continue at this moment and tried to keep it going, but they circled clockwise around the room and then vanished. I asked Matt if he saw them, and he said he did. I asked him again some months later, and he said he only saw the black one (which I interpreted a bit as an unbalanced obsession with the dark/negative). There was a dual Samadhi of my friend and I here; I asked the others if they saw the entities and they said no they did not, and neither did they attain Samadhi. After this, I gradually came down to a semi-normal consciousness. The effect of the Samadhi however had the effect of seemingly superconducting me, I felt extrememly lubricated and creative (my energies were very vibrant and shining), and wrote maybe 50 pages of creative writing. This effect lasted a couple of days, then I came back to a normal consciousness.

I have since realized that my Self attained ultimately in those seconds, and when I came down, I came down from the Ain to Malkuth. Thus as I was Kether (or Chokmah) I saw the two oppposite entities of Yin & Yang, the two basic universal principles. I have also realized that the whole thing was done in “love under will” in pure joy without any lust of result. Basically the Nuitian psychedelic kalas were in full force throughout the Working in retrospect. It has only occured to me recently that this was quite a rare attainment, for at the time it seemed the natural result of getting together psychedelically and letting the energies loose—a procedure that could be easily repeated with the same basic methods followed. I have since had many excellent mind states, but none so ultimate as this.

Only lately have I thought this attainment to be the nature of “The Supreme Ritual” mentioned in AL II:40, for there is no more ultimate or profound attainment possible than the complete annihilation of the Self to 0.

One final thing: I think it important to keep in mind that Self is God, and that all entities/Gods, such as Nuit & Hadit, exist within the Self (in so much that all reality is the Self). This is important because I think a lot of Western minds have been poisoned by Christianity, where God is seen external to Self, and is worshipped with no hope of ever attaining to Him. So a much healthier approach seems to me to be the basic attitude of Hinduism that Self is God, and direct experiencial knowledge of the God- Self can be achieved by raising Self to God-Self (whose ultimate identity is simply 0, or Nothingness.) Experiencially, when you raise yourself up you are God, when you come down you are you. So it really is all about Self awareness.

Also, I do not condone drugs as a substitute for daily ritual/meditation, anyone who's done a regimen of ritual followed by meditation for even a week can see its vast import.

*(edit)I have since realized that the 2 etheric entities that manifest as a result of the magickal energy accumulation when I came down from the Void to Sahasrara to Ajna (and down), were the 2 archetypes of Form, White & Black. They are attributed to Ajna's 2 petals, etc., and are actually symbolized by the 2 Great Pillars of The High Priestess card, being Boaz & Jachim.

323
ROTHGATE - Sep 05, 2007 - 05:16 PM
Post subject:
It seems there may be a greater secret simply than the prostate milking of Yoni Tantra. A Freemason, a dirty old owl, whom is a friend of mine introduced me to this, a bit bizarre but not uncommon place for a Thelemite. The walls of the intestine quickly absorb blood as well as many other nutrients- an enema of menstrual blood, semen, and port wine seems to quickly release endorphins in the brain when used in this manner creating an effect similar to that of Samadhi (without having to go through the preliminary). The Great Secret of Solomon, the Templars, the Cathars, is definitly not for everyone, it is rather moreso a secret intended for the perverse, or so it may seem.
jtm - Sep 05, 2007 - 08:14 PM
Post subject:
Rothgate - ..... interesting. I've read things about amrita (female ejaculate) containing essentially spinal fluid of a very high purity which can have effects on the consumer (through whatever orifice). Hence the insistence by Christ that we be reborn/baptized in the spirit _and_ in the flesh. He wasn't emphasizing spirit, he was emphasizing flesh. Christ is a manifestation of the Dionysian love cult (IMHO). Find the bible passage (sorry don't have it in front of me) where a questioner literally asks him, 'surely you don't mean we must crawl back into the womb of a woman!?!?!' and he replies - yea verily. (or some such)

I would also put forth that prostate milking/massage is perhaps simpler than an enema of someone else's bodily fluids Wink But do what ya do my friend.


Wizariaoan - I will suggest that you analyze and ponder the various definitions and experiences of 'samadhi' and compare them to what you experienced. I experienced somethign loosely but definitely similar under LSD at an earlier age. An experience that was transformative and life-changing indeed, but something I did not call 'samadhi'. And when experienced what I do now call 'samadhi' much later in life, all I can say is that it was much different, and in a way, much simpler than what you and I experienced on LSD. Simply put, samadhi is empty bliss, or the blissful emptiness of non-duality. The fact that you experienced 'forms' or 'interactions' of any entity or identity argues for this having been a different type of experience.

Make no mistake, I'm not detracting from it, just clarifying terms. Sometimes we latch on to terms because we need one to identify something that happened. For my part, I never did find a term for my 'big' LSD experience. Identity-obliteration? Rebirth from zero? I actually experienced a gender change during the process (but woke up the same gender in the end Wink ) Ghost walk? Dreamtime? Like you, I experienced forms, interactions, developments, degradations and re-integrations, leading to the eventual witnessing of my personhood being re-assembled before my 'eyes'. It took hours, but was probably not describable as 'blissful' entirely.... parts of it perhaps...
anpi - Sep 05, 2007 - 09:01 PM
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Wizariaoan - thanks for the post, I enjoyed reading it, but from what I understand, the general politics of this site don't support overly explicit descriptions, discussions and confessions of personal indulgences of this kind. There are other sites, such as Erowid and Lycaeum, for such discussions.

However, I'll quote this part:

Quote: › One final thing: I think it important to keep in mind that Self is God, and that all entities/Gods, such as Nuit & Hadit, exist within the Self (in so much that all reality is the Self). This is important because I think a lot of Western minds have been poisoned by Christianity, where God is seen external to Self, and is worshipped with no hope of ever attaining to Him. So a much healthier approach seems to me to be the basic attitude of Hinduism that Self is God, and direct experiencial knowledge of the God- Self can be achieved by raising Self to God-Self (whose ultimate identity is simply 0, or Nothingness.) Experiencially, when you raise yourself up you are God, when you come down you are you. So it really is all about Self awareness.


If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.

(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.)
Wizardiaoan - Sep 06, 2007 - 12:00 AM
Post subject:
I was under the impression that as long as one didn't babble upon the subject it was fine; but I do not propose to know the intricacies of what constitutes an acceptable post here. However, I do know that this is Paul's site, and that he has every right to delete it. It doesn't matter to me either way, as I am its author and have little to gain from it.

anpi wrote: › If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.

(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.)


Whether this is Crowley's thoughts or no, my reply is that if one believes everything to be an extension of the Self, it's impossible to say that anything is outside of it. I am aware of the debate of whether an evoked entity is to be considered a part of the psyche or an external independant being. My thoughts are that everything soever is a part of the God Self, which is one's highest Self, thus there really is nothing exterior to Self. I cannot help if a realization of this causes some misled souls to go off the deep end.

Here is Sri Ramana Maharshi's viewpoint:

http://www.hinduism.co.za/god.htm

I think a good summary might be that from the viewpoint of the normal individual/divided self the entities are outside, but from the viewpoint of the undivided God-Self the entites are inside.

Re jtm:
Yes I use the term Samadhi loosely, not technically. Heretofore, I have not been that impressed with all the different namings and grades of the trances (they just seem to add confusion), but let me look and see if I can find a name in the literature for it. I'll reply soon.

Ok, I have thought about it, and believe I described it well initially; you can label it as you will. I think this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God. There is no way this state could be sustained too long, for one I think it is proportional with the force that propelled one into it, but secondly one could not function without consciousness of some sort. Thus I think all sustained gnosi/trances must be imperfect realizations of this ultimate attainment. So 1.) I do not think a sustained complete unity with 0 is possible (in human incarnation), and 2.) any sustained trance where one does hold some semblance of awareness/consciousness is not a complete (thus imperfect) unity with 0.
jtm - Sep 06, 2007 - 07:42 PM
Post subject:
I will only argue with the assertion that "this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God". By definition, it is impossible to ever make that assertion. I at one point was inclined to think that, but later experiences left that one far in the dust. I can just say that the 'truth' to me is that the nature of reality is limitless love and light, and nothing else (that is to say, everything is included and part of this). Thus an 'ultimate attainment' is the dissolution of self completely - the cessation of ego and even time itself. The ultimate attainment would render your participation on an internet chat board quite pointless!

I've attained quite highly myself. Each time requires hours, and lately days, to ... unfortunately, to allow oneself to come back down to the usual realm of human psyche. Without retreating to an ashram or hermitage, this is only necessary. It is quite imaginable to stay there, to continue practice, but there are earthly affairs (and people) that require my time. I'm no Boddhisattva, but let's just say that the life path I've followed thus far precludes my full-time practice of full awareness, now that I know how it's done. Perhaps one day when I'm older and taken care of my earthly responsibilities... or perhaps in my next reincarnation I'll get to start off near where I've gotten to this time around....
jtm - Sep 06, 2007 - 07:44 PM
Post subject:
Basically, while you're alive and confined to incarnation, there will always be a higher attainment to achieve.
Wizardiaoan - Sep 06, 2007 - 10:11 PM
Post subject:
You have misinterpreted me jtm; I did not and do not claim to be the continuous recipient of the ultimate attainment, this is where the ascetics have got me beat. I only assert that at one point in time I attained ultimately to complete unity with 0: my Self was raised to Infinite Selfhood (God & Kether), and then that itself was completely annihilated into 0 for 3 or so seconds. You can disagree with me and say that there is a higher attainment, but how can there be anything higher than complete annihliation with 0? Your "limitless love and light" is God & Kether, these qualities are then themselves ultimatley destroyed in absolute 0, Nothingness: this is the highest nature of God. The only thing that would be higher is if the duration of the trance was increased and sustained.

Here is a model that might help my explanation: my method above was as a mountain with steep slopes, whereas a Jnani such as Sri Ramana Maharshi's is like a plateau. He stays in a plateau of continuous God/Kether realized trance, while I began lower and built up a vast amount of energy which did not slow down when I reached the summit of God/Kether, but plummeted me into complete annihilation with the Ain as 0. Due to this immense accumulation of energy (both built up during the Working and as like the Big Bang when I came out of 0), the two entities representing duality then formed as I began coming down from the trance, as the first manifestations of Form.

Thus the minor critique I have with the Ramana Maharshi's methods is that simple meditation perhaps is not enough to propel one into ultimate dissolution to 0. There seems to be a necessary great rapture and raising of Self with enough force so that Self will ultimately supernova and be completely annihilated. And I notice that many classic methods do not really do that, but aim towards a continuous happy plateau of unity/emptiness, etc., where there in all cases is some degree or semblance of consciousness/awareness present.

So yes if you want to get really ascetic there are always higher levels of continuous consciousness, but there is also a way to shoot yourself to the moon in one go as it were (and one method for so doing is described above).
Azidonis - Sep 07, 2007 - 10:08 AM
Post subject:
93

This reminds me of an arguement I once had with and old friend about why there isn't a simple pill one could take, or a short cut to Enlightenment. Of course, the more I tried to explain why there wasn't one, the more she pressed and failed to understand.

Two months later she publicly took the Oath of the Abyss, and has been lost in a muddle since.

93 93/93
jtm - Sep 07, 2007 - 12:26 PM
Post subject:
Hi Wiz. I'm honestly not trying for a 'no you didn't/yes you did' argument here. No argument at all in fact. I'm just always wary when I hear someone claim that something they experienced was the highest attainment. It's tempting to hold your experience up against what books and teachers and systems and symbols _say_ is the highest attainment, for there are connections that are tempting. But remember that all these systems, including the number system itself (1 and zero) are teaching symbols. I can just say that your experience sounds much like something I had earlier in my path, which I've since superceded and learned beyond. I don't know how old you are or what your praxis history is, but I would venture to say that if you stay on the path and keep practicing you'll learn that the experiences you have _without_ drugs will put this experience in the backseat.

In the way of Azidonis' post, .... it really is impossible to try to discuss these things, whether in writing or speech, which is why most don't. The experiences are inner - the converstions can thus only be about techniques and tools; unless the conversation is with your teacher. Your teacher will know where you're at intimately and you will know that your teacher knows where you're at, and you'll know that s/he's been farther. This is the core of the teacher relationship.

So I'm assuming nothing about your experience - you may have ascended completely for all I know. I just caution against talk of absolutes in everything, as possibly the biggest mistake to make in anything. As the Zen koan says "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him". Because the Buddha you think you see isn't the real Buddha. I would suggest reading the Diamond Sutra along these lines. If you think you've experienced the highest attainment, this is actually not a good sign. You're not 'wrong', but it's best to continue practicing, and even find a new (the next) type of practice for yourself.

Finally, 'ascetic'.... 'ascetics' aren't necessarily the ones with the highest attainment, or the means to such. Gautama himself discovered this, and it is the foundation of that practice called Buddhism, and it is the basis of tantra, which is the high road to enlightenment in this incarnation. It is specifically _not_ asceticism. Asceticism is a good path, but it is a long one without a hope of enlightenment in this or any near future incarnation. Ascetics are specifically not interested in enlightenment in itself, but in readiness for enlightenment. So - don't think that ascetics have anything on the likes of us, or that you're limited because you enjoy the world.

Look up the tradition of 'ngakpa' if you don't already know about it. It is the tradition of householder/practitioner in Tibetan Buddhism. They are essentially monks without the vows of chastity and poverty. They marry, have children, and are part of the community. In my eversohumble opinion it (or a path like it) is the best path for modern American/western mystics. It offers the tools of sexual energy, which are by far the most powerful. This middle path is easily the most conducive to enlightenment in our age/time/culture. You will find results through this path that stagger the imagination and shed new light on all material you've read thus far, as it seems you've read a bit.

Thanks for putting up with and actually reading my boring diatribes. It's great to have attained something. I'm encouraging you to find out that it's only the beginning. Not just mastering the ability to return there, but to go much farther and expand your footprint in reality.

Kundalini.
anpi - Sep 09, 2007 - 08:53 AM
Post subject:
Wizardiaoan wrote: ›
anpi wrote: › If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.

(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.)


Whether this is Crowley's thoughts or no, my reply is that if one believes everything to be an extension of the Self, it's impossible to say that anything is outside of it. I am aware of the debate of whether an evoked entity is to be considered a part of the psyche or an external independant being. My thoughts are that everything soever is a part of the God Self, which is one's highest Self, thus there really is nothing exterior to Self. I cannot help if a realization of this causes some misled souls to go off the deep end.


Yes, I don't know if I agree with Crowley on this, it's just interesting that he argues so hard for this position in Magick Without Tears, instead of being ambivalent like in many of his other writings. Personally I can also see how many people in modern society can head towards the deep end if they take the abnormal functioning of their brain as an external spirit or angel giving them instructions.

Quote: ›
Ok, I have thought about it, and believe I described it well initially; you can label it as you will. I think this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God. There is no way this state could be sustained too long, for one I think it is proportional with the force that propelled one into it, but secondly one could not function without consciousness of some sort. Thus I think all sustained gnosi/trances must be imperfect realizations of this ultimate attainment. So 1.) I do not think a sustained complete unity with 0 is possible (in human incarnation), and 2.) any sustained trance where one does hold some semblance of awareness/consciousness is not a complete (thus imperfect) unity with 0.


BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?
Azidonis - Sep 09, 2007 - 09:43 AM
Post subject:
93,

anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?


It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms, I'll say "Waking", "Mystical", and "Dream". (Please don't bother me with Wake World switches right now, I know the futilities of the terms waking and dream.)

"Waking" Consciousness is a state in which we are "awake", walking around, moving in phsyical reality. Our minds are alert and aware, and we react to the constant stimuli that are presented to us.

During "Mystical" Consciousnes, ie. Meditation, the external "physical world" is shut off. However, our awareness and consciousness are still very much in tact, and working at normal waking capacity. The main difference is the complete lack of outer stimuli.

During "Dream" Consciousness, there are no outer stimuli (generally), but the awareness and memory functions of the mind are in an extremely relaxed state, therefore 'unconscious'.

A few things to consider then: inner stimuli, outer stimuli, awareness, memory, and retainment. The "Closed eyed" or "Mystical" Consciousness is definitely the balance of the two. Thus, I would think that as these three classifications of mental states are very distinct, the individual experiences witnessed and participated in during these distinct modes is just that - individual and unique to each mode.

It's just a theory.

93 93/93
Aum418 - Sep 09, 2007 - 04:36 PM
Post subject:
Azidonis wrote: › 93,

anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?


It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms, I'll say "Waking", "Mystical", and "Dream". (Please don't bother me with Wake World switches right now, I know the futilities of the terms waking and dream.)

"Waking" Consciousness is a state in which we are "awake", walking around, moving in phsyical reality. Our minds are alert and aware, and we react to the constant stimuli that are presented to us.

During "Mystical" Consciousnes, ie. Meditation, the external "physical world" is shut off. However, our awareness and consciousness are still very much in tact, and working at normal waking capacity. The main difference is the complete lack of outer stimuli.

During "Dream" Consciousness, there are no outer stimuli (generally), but the awareness and memory functions of the mind are in an extremely relaxed state, therefore 'unconscious'.

A few things to consider then: inner stimuli, outer stimuli, awareness, memory, and retainment. The "Closed eyed" or "Mystical" Consciousness is definitely the balance of the two. Thus, I would think that as these three classifications of mental states are very distinct, the individual experiences witnessed and participated in during these distinct modes is just that - individual and unique to each mode.

It's just a theory.

93 93/93


That is not Mystical consciousness, that is Waking consciousness shut off from stimuli. Your definitoin of Mystical and Waking consciousness are not different at all except by degree of how well you think you arent paying attention to the stimuli you normally are. Also, this isnt a 'balance' betwee nwaking and dream at all, since youd pretty much be half-unconscious if you struck a balance between those two. Further, you have no idea whether dream consciousness takes in external stimuli (in my experience it does, but simply changes their interpretation... i.e. the famous dog licking you is a girl kissing you in the dream) and you just assume you dont.

Mystical consciosuness I would say is superconsciousness - the non-dual state of awareness known variously by many many names (and hinted at in many Thelemic books like when it is said "I am alone...") This truly is a different state of consciousness, not differentiated by the amount of exteernal stimuli that reach your awareness. In this sense you might say there are four, though I would stil lsay only three: Dream, Waking, "Samadhi" (or some other term). Unconscious, Conscious, Superconscious. Meditative consciousness is just a focusing of the conscious (most people are more asleep than awake in their conscious state, Gurdjieff and others would say).

65 & 210,
111-418
Proteus - Sep 09, 2007 - 04:58 PM
Post subject:
93

Quote: › It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms...

The Mandukya Upanishad lists them as Vaisvanara Atman (activity in the waking state), Taijasa Atman (activity in the dream state), and Prajna Atman (deep sleep). Together, they comprise a description of AUM.

These Hindu texts are absolute treasures. It's so nice to revisit them! I attended a Bhaghavad Gita yagna (spiritual reading of the Gita) with an Agni (fire) ritual at a Hindu temple last night. Absolutely beautiful!

John

93 93/93
Aum418 - Sep 09, 2007 - 06:18 PM
Post subject:
Proteus wrote: › 93

Quote: › It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms...

The Mandukya Upanishad lists them as Vaisvanara Atman (activity in the waking state), Taijasa Atman (activity in the dream state), and Prajna Atman (deep sleep). Together, they comprise a description of AUM.

These Hindu texts are absolute treasures. It's so nice to revisit them! I attended a Bhaghavad Gita yagna (spiritual reading of the Gita) with an Agni (fire) ritual at a Hindu temple last night. Absolutely beautiful!

John

93 93/93


AUM is explained as 3 states as well, surrounded by the sound of Silence (the 4th sound)... this shows Crowley didnt truly understand AUM when he changed it to AUMGN (or he simply wanted to change it up a little). Hindu texts are in deed absolute treasures. I am so glad you read these and attended that ritual.

I have to say that Upanishad isnt 'final' or 'authoritative' as tehre are other slightly different opinions in different upanishads (even the purusha vs. atman changes from upanishad to upanishad. We cant really fathom how far apart they were written, imagine if one THelemic holy book was written in 1500 and one in 1900...)

65 & 210,
111-418
jtm - Sep 09, 2007 - 07:23 PM
Post subject:
I once read a metaphoric description of AUM as - first, the ripples and waves disturbing the top of the water - then, the liquidity and full immersion in the enveloping water - then, the solid earth at the bottom of the water - and last, the unheard sound, the nondual reality, or the 'zero' in this discussion.
Uni_Verse - Sep 09, 2007 - 10:48 PM
Post subject:
Wizard...

From my personal experiences, I would not put too much credence on drug induced states. After all, since you were on LSD your perceptions were not normal. You were yourself, and not yourself. So what might have been destroyed was your "not-Self" or rather your Self that was on the drug. Hopefully that made some sense Smile

My own experiences with Samadhi or what I would term that were entirely different. What exactly happened is not something I can put into words, but its after effects were certainly noticeable. Like a babe just pushed into the world...
Aum418 - Sep 09, 2007 - 11:36 PM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: ›

For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now.


I agree except I see Dharma as True Will and Buddha as True Self, the Sangha as the Universe and especially those who tread the path before me. Dharma is one's will in line with the universal will, so one is doing one's 'cosmic duty.' Teachings are a finger pointing to the moon.

65 & 210,
111-418
Wizardiaoan - Sep 10, 2007 - 08:19 AM
Post subject:
I find it slightly bizarre that there would be so much commentary upon my personal interpretation of my personal "Samadhi" experience, perhaps I should have posted it on Erowid... Anyway, my interpretation still stands; if you don't agree that's fine (and you are free to cite why): but be well assured I do not need nor ask for advice on this issue. Not sure what gave the impression that I was overly attached to it or was being misled by it; also to label it a "drug experience" is foolish, if anything the substance imbibed just opened me up and gave me more energy as a driving Will. If any of you have done intense pranayama after getting high on whatever intoxicant, you will note how little the drug affects deep interior consciousness, they all mostly just affect the exterior self.

anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?


When my "Samadhi" to 0 did occur, I do note that I did not fall limp on the floor, whatever this may imply lol. I think Aum 418's description as "Unconscious-Conscious-Superconsciousness" is pretty good. I would however assert that some mystical practices are designed to unite the Conscious with the Unconsciousness, such as more relaxation type exercises. But the Low-Middle-High schema is pretty good. The Superconsciousness activities seem to include a pin-pointing of concentration and awareness of Self, and in general will be more energetic.

I do know that the Superconscious attainment to 0 is quite different than the normal non-rem state of nothingness, but cannot explain it well. In the former, one is very pin-pointed yet has forgotten all, and is just energetically and exhaustively permutating Self (to keep balancing it), and then there is an amazing polar shift from All to Nothing that occurs. In the latter there is a lax drifting into sleep. In both there is a rebirth and revivifying of Self. There may actually be no difference, I am simply not sure; it's a question I have asked myself as well. Since 0 has to be the same non-experience, I do not think it would make sense to postulate two different states of 0. So I think this state may be achieved every night by the unconscious route. Yet to be able to attain it superconsciously is quite unique; I do note that this requires an intense process of awareness, concentration, and balancing which simply falling asleep does not.

Upon death it seems most likely that one will be dissovled into 0, which upon any awareness the outer sheath of which will seem is ecstasy and peace unutterable, according to AL I:58.

PS. Upon going to sleep last night I noticed the Unconscious and Superconscious methods might be categorized as Solve and Coagula. To go to sleep/relax, one is trying to unwind/dissolve/circumferencize(lol) Self; in a Superconscious method one will be trying more to wind oneself tightly up to a quintessential point. But "The Quintessence of The Universal is Nothing," so the end result is unity with the Ain.
Azidonis - Sep 10, 2007 - 02:17 PM
Post subject:
93 AUM,

Alright, you got me...

Aum418 wrote: ›
That is not Mystical consciousness, that is Waking consciousness shut off from stimuli. Your definitoin of Mystical and Waking consciousness are not different at all except by degree of how well you think you arent paying attention to the stimuli you normally are.


So what you are saying is that it's the same thing, but I'm just ignoring physical stimuli? And if that's the case I suppose there is a point where physical stimuli simply "do not exist"? Wouldn't this imply that one is basically ingoring it until it goes away, which would only be a more advanced state of ignoring stimuli?

Quote: ›
Also, this isnt a 'balance' betwee nwaking and dream at all, since youd pretty much be half-unconscious if you struck a balance between those two. Further, you have no idea whether dream consciousness takes in external stimuli (in my experience it does, but simply changes their interpretation... i.e. the famous dog licking you is a girl kissing you in the dream) and you just assume you dont.


I said generally. Of course there are external stimuli that effect one's "dream consciousness". It doesn't happen all of the time, but it does happen, which is why I said generally. This is a simple overlap.

Quote: ›
Mystical consciosuness I would say is superconsciousness - the non-dual state of awareness known variously by many many names (and hinted at in many Thelemic books like when it is said "I am alone...") This truly is a different state of consciousness, not differentiated by the amount of exteernal stimuli that reach your awareness. In this sense you might say there are four, though I would stil lsay only three: Dream, Waking, "Samadhi" (or some other term). Unconscious, Conscious, Superconscious. Meditative consciousness is just a focusing of the conscious (most people are more asleep than awake in their conscious state, Gurdjieff and others would say).

65 & 210,
111-418


So what you are essentially saying is that what I labeled "Waking Consciousness" is the same as what I labeled "Mystical Consciousness", with the only difference being the active perception of outer stimuli, and the "Dream Consciousness" is only a dream until it is affected by external stimuli? Yet there is a fourth arena of consciousness in which all of this is superceded, thus the term Superconsciousness?

Also, on my first acid trip (1997) I watched all of the clouds turn into Angels and begin flying as a flock across the sky. Should I have then labeled them as the Choir of Malkuth, with the largest one being Sandalphon? Okay Wiz, maybe that was a low blow... However, I must commend you, for you are only one of two people that I've met that has recounted an experience they firmly and educatively believed was Samadhi, and the only one I know to have done it publicly. Be that as it may, the word public is a key, and your post is subject to many different viewpoints - publicly. It's okay, relax. It's for clarification and learning purposes, all of it, and doesn't change what you feel about your own experience. I commend your brevity.

93 93/93
jtm - Sep 10, 2007 - 02:45 PM
Post subject:
Wiz, Az : (lotta 'z's... hehe)

Az's comment about people talking about their samahdi experiences is about like what I was going to say. Wiz - your comment about it being or not being a 'drug experience' is an important one. I think when you attain this far or farther without drugs (presuming you haven't), I think you'll see clearly the difference. But here I have to fall back to Az's comment about the inexplicability. All my exchanges with seekers/attainers have been along the lines of knowing smiles : knowing that we share something that we can't explain, and that no other people could fathom, but also knowing that talking about it, even to each other, would be futile. Were the experiences similar? Moot point. Were the samadhi or dhyana or nibbana? Moot point. Sounds simplistic and counter-intuitive compared to the traditions, but all these experiences are 'inner'. Other people's explanations of their experiences are similarly 'inner' for the hearer, whether recognized as such or not.
We are now dancing around the reason why, in the worlds mystical traditions, there is so little open talk about what it is we are attaining to. And also why the traditions are secret, and kept in teacher-student relationships. The talking about the attainment can quickly become a distraction and division as bad as television or junk food. My partner and I have had similar experiences _together_ and even we don't bother to try to describe or analyze them with each other, beyond certain .... identifying characteristics that tell us that yes, she was where I was, and I was where she was. That tells us enough, and we both 'know'.
This all sounds terribly 'inside' to someone seeking, and even arrogant and elitist, and kind of like you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about-you-neophyte. But - you are on the right track. Drugs can pry the door open. But what's beyond the door is waaaayyyyy beyond drugs. I can confidently say you have not experienced the highest attainment. Why can I say that? That's another one of those things, which you'll probably agree with at some point if you keep up your practice.
And I have to go back to your talk about pranayama while on intoxicants - it may be true, but your description was about playing music while on acid. Thus you were not calm, were not totally relaxed, and were not entirely focused and clear-minded. And I doubt anyone, even an ascended master, can play an instrument while attaining to the 'highest' enlightenment simultaneously. Sure, there are writings about 'spontaneous' samadhi events, but again - your description sounds like something inspiring, but I'm pretty sure it was the acid. I and many others who've done LARGE amounts of PURE acid have had experiences that make yours sound mundane, while doing nothing but meditating. And even that wasn't any kind of attainment - it was an acid trip. Big diff.
Sorry to sound elitist. I don't mean to be. I seriously want more people to attain. The more people attain, the better and more enjoyable and open my life becomes. The keys are self-mind-control, diet/fitness(self-body-control), and agape.
Keep at it.

Oh, and Uni_Verse :
great point about the after effects. This is probably the telltale sign that you've attained (anything) - it rewires you in a significant undeniable way, that perhaps people around you notice. It may even alter the laws of probability with respect to your fortunes. This latter effect will only stay with you while you maintain the attained state through practice - something excruciatingly difficult for us westerners and our lifestyles. Perhaps even impossible. But even this change in wiring is diffucult to explain and just sounds smarmy and hippyish to uninitiated hearers - the universe is love and unity, everything is light, happiness and fulfillment can only be attained through fulfilling another, etc... (whether that other is a deity, a tantric partner, or humanity in general)
This is the ultimate nature of enlightenment. But while we're bound to things and people here in the world, the experience must be temporary, perhaps because we know that our disappearance (final attainment) would actually leave our loved ones sad and empty. The Buddha (like all ascended masters) was able to gradually dissolve all emotional ties and ascend, permanently, in a way that damaged no one.
Aum418 - Sep 10, 2007 - 04:04 PM
Post subject:
93 Azidonis,

Azidonis wrote: ›
So what you are saying is that it's the same thing, but I'm just ignoring physical stimuli?


Yes.

Quote: › And if that's the case I suppose there is a point where physical stimuli simply "do not exist"?


I dont know why you would make final statements about the nature of existence of matter and such.... at a certain point, physical stimuli 'do not exist' "to you" as in they might as well not exist since you arent perceiving/registering them. This is called 'pratyahara' in Yoga.

Quote: › Wouldn't this imply that one is basically ingoring it until it goes away, which would only be a more advanced state of ignoring stimuli?

If meditation is 'basically ignoring it' then I guess... it requires a bit more work than that phrase implies. Its more like a focus on one thing overrides the distractions on other things.

Quote: › So what you are essentially saying is that what I labeled "Waking Consciousness" is the same as what I labeled "Mystical Consciousness", with the only difference being the active perception of outer stimuli


Exactly.

Quote: › , and the "Dream Consciousness" is only a dream until it is affected by external stimuli?

No... I didnt see a problem with your labeling of 'Dream Consciousness' - just the fact that you assumed (or generally assumed as I understand now) that Dream Consciousness has no connection with perception of external stimuli.

Quote: › Yet there is a fourth arena of consciousness in which all of this is superceded, thus the term Superconsciousness?

I dont like the idea 'superceded' here for some reason. The other states aren't 'superceded' they are just different. Crowley once said that Dreaming : Waking :: Waking : Samadhi, i.e. Waking consciousness appears to look like a deep slumber compared to the (super)consciousness of Samadhi.

Quote: › Also, on my first acid trip (1997) I watched all of the clouds turn into Angels and begin flying as a flock across the sky. Should I have then labeled them as the Choir of Malkuth, with the largest one being Sandalphon?


Theres a difference between perceiving external physical hallucinations and perceiving a shift in one's consciousness itself (and the ego). A feeling of dissolution of ego is on a little bit of a different scale than observing images in the clouds.

Quote: › Okay Wiz, maybe that was a low blow... However, I must commend you, for you are only one of two people that I've met that has recounted an experience they firmly and educatively believed was Samadhi, and the only one I know to have done it publicly. Be that as it may, the word public is a key, and your post is subject to many different viewpoints - publicly. It's okay, relax. It's for clarification and learning purposes, all of it, and doesn't change what you feel about your own experience. I commend your brevity.

93 93/93


Agreed.

65 & 210,
111-418
tazadinath - Sep 10, 2007 - 05:23 PM
Post subject:
The Zen state 'tightens the drum' of my waking awarness. Periods of prolonged relaxed bio-feedback and sense dep combine to create a super sensitivity to stimuli, internal or external. I've read an overwhelming number of accounts where the impact of some trivial stimulus cascaded into an experience of kensho or samadhi, especially after a period of prolonged intense practice. This has been my experience, Crowley wrote about how 'holier men than he' would attend a 'bottle party' after an intense period of austerity.
If you told me about the jam session after 10 days of hard core zen practice with some specific aims and resulting detailed realizations I'd go 'Oh! Hell yeah! Good Show.". But these out of the blue vagueries smell of 'short-cut-ism' [tm new word here folks]. Also familuarity with the glossary of one or more traditional meditative traditions can help youself and others better gauge and understand your level af attainment and provides a better frame of reference for the rest of us unenlightened sods.
Wizardiaoan - Sep 10, 2007 - 06:38 PM
Post subject:
Re jtm:

That was actually a frank reply which I liked; though I do disagree. However the after-effects being a part of an attainment I do agree with.

Music took the place of meditation in my cited method jtm, you obviously cannot wrap your head around it being potent enough to do so, but this was actually the major point of why I posted this method. Some will disagree with you that music cannot produce calmness, relaxation, focus, or clearmindedness in its various forms, particularly upon the person playing it. The Form I played that night was fast like John McLaughlin's fusion, which produced an inner calm and balance through its exhaustive relentless permutation. Then there was the unity and harmony of consciousness between 5 individuals. This for 3 or 4 hours was as an intense a concentration/meditation exercise as any. The nature of it was essentially Bhakti yoga, an enflaming of oneself in prayer.

Note also I have never said that I recommend this method over others. In fact in my first post I noted that it should not take the place of daily meditation/ritual practice. I feel like I'm having to write my same post over and over.

Re Azidonis:
I realize that it is up for public scrutiny, and people are free to draw their own conclusions as both to my interpreted attainment and the viability of this method, I was just wishing to curb the advice part. I do not myself need to be told "to be careful" with drugs, or other trite remarks, etc. I'm fine, trust me. Stick to criticisms of my interpretations/views, save Paul some kilobytes Razz

Re Taz:
Your critique seems to be that I did not commence the Working with "specific aims", and I did not leave it with "detailed realizations". But Pure Will has no purpose, my simple aim was to create and revel in immense ecstasy, to shape that ecstasy as diamond perfect as possible. My "detailed realization" was unity to 0, I'm sorry I did not ascertain the nature of the dark matter of physics. My point is there is little more of greater import to realize or experience than this. Now please save me the triteness of countering with words to the effect that "if you think you've nothing left to learn, then you've got a lot to learn." I am not saying that.
Uni_Verse - Sep 10, 2007 - 07:06 PM
Post subject:
Music is something I have found to be an extremely useful tool in my meditative practices.

You can listen to a song so many times and then it comes on while meditating and opens up doorways you never imagined...

The best part, is that you can easily return to the "attained" state by simply listening to it again!
jtm - Sep 10, 2007 - 10:11 PM
Post subject:
Wiz - very good point about music. I have a degree and played fusion myself for a long time. Mahavishnu is just spectacular stuff.

Playing music is indeed one of the most powerful tools available. So I'll qualify my comments to say that to actually use it for advanced goals, beyond 'general practice', requires much experience and mastership. Perhaps this is where you are after all. The differentiation I make is like the practice of Hatha Yoga for general 'tuning up', on a regular basis, versus using an advanced technique like a tantra or a puja or an invokation to actually ... let's say 'make something happen'. For some, though, the Hatha Yoga itself becomes a method of attainment, and 'happening'.

I hope this metaphor isnt' stretched the the breaking point. I hope you continue and attain further, by whatever methods you choose.
Wizardiaoan - Sep 11, 2007 - 02:11 AM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: › Wiz - very good point about music. I have a degree and played fusion myself for a long time. Mahavishnu is just spectacular stuff.


Then for shame that you dismissed this method so! I like Al di Meola in this vein too. Also, check out the dvd "Concert for George (Harrison)," there is an amazing Indian orchestral piece on it, arranged by Ravi Shankar and his daughter that I'm sure Crowley would have loved (to bring this thread slightly back with the forum's vision lol). Indian music is amazingly God-realized, like their whole culture. Here is an excerpt from a recent e-mail from David Hulse (that I post unknowingly & without permission from him, mwahaha!):

"I have taught in groups for many years off and on. I have lectured in public. I have never, ever reached the essence level of the group as I do when I play my [Tibetan]bells with one pointed devotion. It is truly an awakening experience for all who hear the bells. And I am just a facilitator with the bells. They need me to bring their voice out, but they guide me every step of the way on my performance."

So I just think the music method needs explored more. Its most obvious advantage is that it can awaken multiple people, perhaps even en masse. This would be hard to do via sex magick (a mile long 69 would be rather akward), and group meditation/ritual might fail to be conjoined enough.

My critique of most music is that it is song oriented, which can never explore the spontaneity needed to attain success in this method, although songs are quite enjoyable/archetypal. Even Indian music is content to reach a high plateau of joy and god-realization, but does not break from its form to address and equilibrate the particular moment at hand.

jtm wrote: › The differentiation I make is like the practice of Hatha Yoga for general 'tuning up', on a regular basis, versus using an advanced technique like a tantra or a puja or an invokation to actually ... let's say 'make something happen'. For some, though, the Hatha Yoga itself becomes a method of attainment, and 'happening'.

I hope this metaphor isnt' stretched the the breaking point. I hope you continue and attain further, by whatever methods you choose.


I was wondering if you could try to clarify the point you were trying to make here, I'm really not getting much out of it.

Peace,
Azidonis - Sep 11, 2007 - 12:20 PM
Post subject:
93,

A song that enlightens the masses... joy! Now all we have to do is hook it up at Time Square and play it on New Year's... half the American population could become instantly enlightened!

Couldn't help myself... Twisted Evil

93 93/93
Wizardiaoan - Sep 11, 2007 - 06:38 PM
Post subject:
I am beginning to wonder if you are capable of saying anything useful. You can help yourself by actually retaining the content of people's posts. For in mine I critiqued that the musical form of song is unlikely to lead to total success, and that the specific form will have to change to address the paricular moment. Thus the form that will lead to success is not a song and will vary from Working to Working.
jtm - Sep 11, 2007 - 08:30 PM
Post subject:
What I was trying to say with the Hatha Yoga 'analogy' is best put within the paradigm of music, since we've arrived at some common territory. The email you cite is apropos, and demonstrates that music is a great tool for practice, and a great too to help others find insight/inspiration/illumination. But this conversation started around your assertion of a certain attainment - an 'absolute' or 'highest' attainment. Now there are exceptions to every rule, BUT -generally speaking music is used in the above way - an exercise, a practice, a honing tool for self control (bodily, motor, mind, sensory...), and not generally as a path to absolute attainment. The highest attainments are generally done with focused inner practices, after having used techniques _like_ music, hatha yoga, visualization, etc... to train the mind to get out of the way.

In any case, conversations like this get pedantic quickly. My original point was merely to beware of thinking you've experienced the highest attainment. You respectfully disagree. I respectfully respect your respectful disagreement, else I'll start asking questions like 'who are you' and 'how old are you' and 'what is your practice history', etc... etc...

And so the topic has likely run its course.
tazadinath - Sep 12, 2007 - 03:27 AM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: ›
great point about the after effects. This is probably the telltale sign that you've attained (anything) - it rewires you in a significant undeniable way, that perhaps people around you notice. It may even alter the laws of probability with respect to your fortunes. This latter effect will only stay with you while you maintain the attained statethrough practice


I like this idea alot especially the part about bending the laws of probability. Intuitively I feel I've always recognized it but never put it into words. The dice do seem to roll a little differently after a breakthrough. Kinda like getting lucky.
jtm - Sep 12, 2007 - 12:19 PM
Post subject:
I've thought of it almost as bending the probability trampoline 'in' towards oneself. The analogy that comes to my mind is the way that massive objects 'bend space' 'toward' themselves, causing things 'going by' to tend to move toward them on the way by. Somehow advancing ones consciousness level causes such a dip in .... probability? Probability probably isn't the right word. I think it has more to do with the tendencies of sentient beings, and the things that attract them to act. True Will perhaps. But practicing without intention, or 'goal', makes general attraction happen. I don't practice much with focused intention, but I would imagine this is how directed magick works. I've found that the few times I've practied focused intention (through a sigil for example), the results can be surprising but may take time and may not seem like they were brought about by the practice (sigil, ...). I think there is likely a 'moment of inertia' to overcome when trying to make specific things happen where they concern sentient beings. When unfocused, the forces will affect the many small things with small moments of inertia. Like making people introduce themselves to you, or making traffic lights green ... Wink
Aum418 - Sep 12, 2007 - 04:38 PM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: › I've thought of it almost as bending the probability trampoline 'in' towards oneself. The analogy that comes to my mind is the way that massive objects 'bend space' 'toward' themselves, causing things 'going by' to tend to move toward them on the way by. Somehow advancing ones consciousness level causes such a dip in .... probability? Probability probably isn't the right word. I think it has more to do with the tendencies of sentient beings, and the things that attract them to act. True Will perhaps. But practicing without intention, or 'goal', makes general attraction happen. I don't practice much with focused intention, but I would imagine this is how directed magick works. I've found that the few times I've practied focused intention (through a sigil for example), the results can be surprising but may take time and may not seem like they were brought about by the practice (sigil, ...). I think there is likely a 'moment of inertia' to overcome when trying to make specific things happen where they concern sentient beings. When unfocused, the forces will affect the many small things with small moments of inertia. Like making people introduce themselves to you, or making traffic lights green ... Wink


Is it possible that your perception of conflict is simply lessened and so things appear to be running more smoothly? I find it extremely silly to think that attainment alters any fundamental natural law - I can only fathom that it would alter our perception thereof (i.e. you seem to not find much that is conflicting, or you feel your life is more flowy)
tazadinath - Sep 12, 2007 - 05:19 PM
Post subject:
Aum418 wrote: › I find it extremely silly to think that attainment alters any fundamental natural law

Ok Einstein thought it was 'Spooky' too... Your in good company!
but...
In science, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observing will make on the phenomenon being observed.
Tree falling in the woods and all that. So therefore altering my preception of an object will in turn effect the object (at least in Heisenburg space)
Wizardiaoan - Sep 12, 2007 - 05:32 PM
Post subject:
jtm wrote: › The highest attainments are generally done with focused inner practices, after having used techniques _like_ music, hatha yoga, visualization, etc... to train the mind to get out of the way.


Ok jtm, I am wondering then what "focused inner practices" more specifically you would think to be a suitable method for reaching the higher attainments (traditional or otherwise)?

P.S. As far as the after effects of attainment and really yoga/spiritual practice in general, I think it might be eventually proven that there is a neural rewiring going on in the brain (if it hasn't been proven already). This might in effect make one more of a chalice for the enlightenment kalas.
tazadinath - Sep 12, 2007 - 05:43 PM
Post subject:
Zazen's a good starter.
Aum418 - Sep 12, 2007 - 05:45 PM
Post subject:
tazadinath wrote: ›
Aum418 wrote: › I find it extremely silly to think that attainment alters any fundamental natural law

Ok Einstein thought it was 'Spooky' too... Your in good company!


Einstein commented on spiritual attainment and how it doesnt affect natural laws? Quote please!

Quote: › but...
In science, the term observer effect refers to changes that the act of observing will make on the phenomenon being observed.
Tree falling in the woods and all that. So therefore altering my preception of an object will in turn effect the object (at least in Heisenburg space)

Uh... what? This has nothign to do with attainment, and as far as I can tell, this observer effect is a law of nature (obviously, or else it wouldnt occur). Also, altering your perception of an object wont necessarily effect the object, its the mere act of observing that usually alters things - how you perceive doesnt matter, its simply the perceiving itself that does. Further, Heisenburgs laws relate to the uncertainty in measurement, not in observation.

65 & 210,
111-418
tazadinath - Sep 12, 2007 - 06:32 PM
Post subject:
Ok this is interesting..
Master E was referring to action at a distance observed in photon polarization. I guess that's not a direct address to 'babes of the abyss' but I find the topic of Quantum Teleportation mildly relevant to my Magickal work. A stretch I know...
Also, not suprisingly, defining the 'role of the observer' has been increasingly problematic for the traditional scientific community. To me there seems to be a natural balance in the idea that if changes in the things I observe alter my perceptions can the reverse also be true.
There's a tremendous amount of trash on the internet about this subject and it's been difficult for me to sift out useful data. But it seems the observer, the instruments of observation and the perceptions of the observer are much more intimately related to the phenomena observed than suspected.
jtm - Sep 12, 2007 - 08:10 PM
Post subject:
The effects I'm referring to (after-effects) tend to be real and external. For instance, a huge number of old personal acquaintances popping up in a single day after practice. So either effected by practice or a ridiculously strange coincidence. Which is possible of course.

Wiz - practices - Tzad shouts Zazen. I do energized meditation (kundalini/sex magick/tantra/whateveryoucallit). I've also done full visualization meditation. The techniques of attaining the knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel are presumably aimed toward this end as well, but that's not my path.

Yoga (raja yoga, not just hatha yoga) is also a path toward full realization, as is tibetan buddhism (the tantric buddhist tradition).

Kabbala is also aimed at this ultimately.

For a modern working of the path with all the world's traditions put together, look into Integral Yoga (i.e. Ken Wilbur) or Agama Yoga.

Christian mysticism (gnostic xtianity, rosicrucianism, etc...) also.

etc. etc.

Playing music on acid might also work, but I know of no traditions developed over time and proven to work by an extant lineage. You can start one perhaps.

Heck, for all I know the Scientologists have found a true path. They've certainly got _something_ going on there.
anpi - Sep 12, 2007 - 08:38 PM
Post subject:
Quote: › Playing music on acid might also work, but I know of no traditions developed over time and proven to work by an extant lineage. You can start one perhaps.


"The Greeks say that there are three methods of discharging the Lyden Jar of Genius. These three methods they assign to three Gods.

These three Gods are Dionysus, Apollo, Aphrodite. In English: wine, woman
and song."

-Crowley: Energized Enthusiasm

Or in more modern terms, Sex, Drugs and Rock 'n Roll.

The general formula has been known for a long time, though I admit some of the tools are much stronger these days, and even stronger than in Crowley's days.

By the way, has anyone read Gary Lachman's "Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and the Dark Side of the Age of Aquarius"? It's quite interesting and has many Crowley references too.
Kalki93 - Sep 13, 2007 - 12:00 AM
Post subject:
I chant Hare Krsna and retain the Thelemic idealism as well, this works for me in attaining Samadhi. I've found it works the best. I've noticed how Thelema can be understood from many different angles. Will is our wills and the Will of God in relation one to another. We don't have to be too dogmatic to understand that , it gets boring that way anyway. Time and time again I find myself reading the Bible and getting frustrated because the time of the Antichrist has been going on ever since the Kaliyuga came about over 5000 years ago. I don't understand why most people do not understand this.
phthah - Sep 13, 2007 - 02:14 AM
Post subject:
93,

Quote: › AUM418 Wrote: I dont like the idea 'superceded' here for some reason. The other states aren't 'superceded' they are just different. Crowley once said that Dreaming : Waking :: Waking : Samadhi, i.e. Waking consciousness appears to look like a deep slumber compared to the (super)consciousness of Samadhi.


Sorry to butt in! I just thought this was an interesting exchange of ideas between AUM418 and Azidonis and I wanted to add something. Of course, where Crowley once said that "Dreaming : Waking :: Waking : Samadhi is from "John-a-Dreams" in Liber 333. So I thought I would post it, as the chapter is interesting in this context. Here it is:

JOHN-A-DREAMS

Dreams are imperfections of sleep; even so is con-
sciousness the imperfection of waking.
Dreams are impurities in the circulation of the blood;
even so is consciousness a disorder of life.
Dreams are without proportion, without good
sense, without truth; so also is consciousness.
Awake from dream, the truth is known: awake
from waking, the Truth is-The Unknown.

93 93/93
Uni_Verse - Sep 13, 2007 - 03:06 AM
Post subject:
Well.. there is shamanism. The ecstasy and joy of song and dance Smile
Azidonis - Sep 13, 2007 - 09:46 AM
Post subject:
Wizardiaoan wrote: › I am beginning to wonder if you are capable of saying anything useful. You can help yourself by actually retaining the content of people's posts. For in mine I critiqued that the musical form of song is unlikely to lead to total success, and that the specific form will have to change to address the paricular moment. Thus the form that will lead to success is not a song and will vary from Working to Working.


93,

Yea, I read all of that, took it in, and to be honest, I would probably be a little more serious about it if I actually believed that you reached "the ultimate attainment for 3 seconds" while playing instruments on acid after what was it, two years of work.

So instead... If what I say isn't useful to you, I could really care less. It may be useful to others, and as you have your mind set that your consciousness disolved into 0, what would you be able to use of mine anyway? There are some on these boards that know how I post, and they seem quite comfortable with it. I admit to being a bit snide to your music idea, but it was just a sarcastic way of saying that I don't agree. Oh well, I won't apologize.

I do read the posts. Yes, even yours. I've read some really wonderful posts on these boards and some extremely boring ones. I've read the funny ones, the challenging ones, and even some absurd ones. And through all of it, I still have my own opinion. I personally don't think one can pop a gel tab and play an instrument until the realization of forgetting what one was doing and who one was - 3 seconds ago - until one remembered, and call it "the ultimate attainment" or even Samadhi. For some reason, the claim (if true) seems to cheapen the idea of Samadhi entirely. As for the 'vision'... you were on acid for cryin' out loud. In order to begin to believe your claim, I would have to ask for more evidence from sober experiences. Since I really don't care that much, I'll stick to the fascinating idea of the enlightenment song... it was more entertaining to me at least. Concerning music in general, I believe it to be a tool, like any other prop one would use in order to assist the focus of consciousness.

93 93/93

P.S. phthah - Thanks for the reference to Liber 333.
P.P.S. AUM418 - Thanks for the clarification concerning Pratyahara.
Aum418 - Sep 13, 2007 - 05:54 PM
Post subject:
Kalki93 wrote: › I chant Hare Krsna and retain the Thelemic idealism as well, this works for me in attaining Samadhi. I've found it works the best. I've noticed how Thelema can be understood from many different angles. Will is our wills and the Will of God in relation one to another. We don't have to be too dogmatic to understand that , it gets boring that way anyway. Time and time again I find myself reading the Bible and getting frustrated because the time of the Antichrist has been going on ever since the Kaliyuga came about over 5000 years ago. I don't understand why most people do not understand this.


The Antichrist came 3000 years before the Christ? I think most poeple dont understand this because its completed unfounded...
Wizardiaoan - Sep 14, 2007 - 06:30 AM
Post subject:
Wizardiaoan wrote: › I am beginning to wonder if you are capable of saying anything useful.


I have stopped wondering.
Azidonis - Sep 14, 2007 - 09:28 AM
Post subject:
Wizardiaoan wrote: ›
Wizardiaoan wrote: › I am beginning to wonder if you are capable of saying anything useful.


I have stopped wondering.


93,

Glad you have come to a viable conclusion. I see you have learned how to use the quote feature proficiently as well. You're welcome.

93 93/93
Kalki93 - Sep 16, 2007 - 09:10 PM
Post subject:
We are in the Age of Kaliyuga which is the Antichrist's Age! So there is no need to be hung up on Revelation or the end times and all of that nonsense. Love is the Law and not speculating.
The Antichrist manifested here 3000 years before Jesus Christ and not Christ or Christos or Krishna.
Jesus Christ just came to resolve the conflict that we have been dealing with ever since this Age came.
That is what the spiritual master does!
Kalki93 - Sep 16, 2007 - 09:12 PM
Post subject:
For more on Kali (and I don't meant Goddess Kali who is a wrathful manifestation of Durga who removes offenses) check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28Demon%29k this out

It makes things very clear about what we are dealing with in this Age, more of the Spirit of Hypocrisy than Love.
Haribol, and Do What Thou Wilt!
Aum418 - Sep 17, 2007 - 12:16 AM
Post subject:
Kalki93 wrote: › For more on Kali (and I don't meant Goddess Kali who is a wrathful manifestation of Durga who removes offenses) check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_%28Demon%29k this out

It makes things very clear about what we are dealing with in this Age, more of the Spirit of Hypocrisy than Love.
Haribol, and Do What Thou Wilt!


You can project all you want onto "this Age" and say its full of hypocrisy and such, but the world is a mirror wherein who sees muck is muck. We can say were dealing with te Spirit of Hypocrisy but that will just create a self-fulfilling prophecy. There is a term in recovery programs that is 'acting like its true' where one acts as if one had already recoverd from teh problem (in this case, the problem of life being viewed as sorrowful and full of hypocrisy and demons etc.) - this helps manifest the qualities more naturally, ad the psyche takes immediate cues for things you treat as real.

65 & 210,
111-418
Kalki93 - Sep 17, 2007 - 11:56 PM
Post subject:
Not true at all. I did not make any of this up. What you are saying is in your mind and what you need to learn from and not me.
asclepio - Sep 18, 2007 - 06:04 AM
Post subject:
93
Two things,
First, Aum418,
Great posts, I'm a fan, you really know you're books and that's a must sometimes. Even though I find your responses to be a little bitter and dry, but that's my perspective. I really think you're a valuable thelemite who shares what he knows (more than the "egotistical" approach you're sometimes given).

I agree with what you say to Kali about one perceiving the world to be such and such when it really is one percieving oneself (the world is man, little Heidegger comes in handy often), so I'd like your view on the following point:
Sometimes, after a little yoga and meditation, although I haven't reach anything too grand, I get the following sensations:
1.- I'm in a strange state of being comfortable anywhere while doing anything, a bit un-attached of the rest of the world. It can be a bit of an obstacle on my daily life, since I must be sharp and political at work or college. Is this state a good thing or not?

2.- I get the same feeling as it was described earlier on the same post about being a piece of a major puzzle, a sense of determination, of doing something you are "destined" to do, even if it is a mundane event and I can't imagine it's repercussions. When I get that, is it instinct?, somekind of astral instinct that "knows", or possess some intuition of my place in relation of my True Will?, or is it some psichological by-product of meditation?

Anyway, my two points, my two questions, and that's all.
93 93/93

Oh, and I almost forgot, Kalki, calm down when you write on this forum. We're all here to learn, share and expierence, not to climb up to some pedestal and go "thou must do this or that because God says so...". I bring this up because when you say stuff like "learn from life, not from books", what it sounds like (at least to me, although I'm sure I'm not alone in this) is this "learn from MY life, not from books". Well, it's just a piece of advise, nothing more.
Azidonis - Sep 18, 2007 - 07:42 AM
Post subject:
Kalki93 wrote: › We are in the Age of Kaliyuga which is the Antichrist's Age! So there is no need to be hung up on Revelation or the end times and all of that nonsense. Love is the Law and not speculating.
The Antichrist manifested here 3000 years before Jesus Christ and not Christ or Christos or Krishna.
Jesus Christ just came to resolve the conflict that we have been dealing with ever since this Age came.
That is what the spiritual master does!


93,

I agree with someone's statement above that this just make no sense what-so-ever. The "Christ" wasn't even an idea in that form under that name until "he" supposedly existed. That said, your claim is that the "anti-idea" [your words Antichrist] came 3,000 years before the idea! It makes no sense. Further, didn't it take a large number of years (like 200 or so? ..don't remember) after the so-called "death", before Cristianity actually became a religion? We can go on with this... the Jews and the idea of a Messiah, the Romans and their ideas of worship, which didn't include this "Jesus" figure at all, and if it did, it was only to make a "holy example" out of the dude by nailing him to a stick... how wonderful to die a martyr for a cause that no one has a clue about. This sound like what, a cult right? What even more sad about this, is that the Christ is sometimes equated with Dionysus, and also... Hare Krisha. Imagine that. Dead gods with dead rituals... and we have their "Ipsissimus" here preaching to us how we should view our own individul worlds...

This whole idea really popped into my head 30 years before I was born though... the Anti-Idea of it anyway.

93 93/93
Azidonis - Sep 18, 2007 - 08:02 AM
Post subject:
93 asclepio,

asclepio wrote: ›
Sometimes, after a little yoga and meditation, although I haven't reach anything too grand, I get the following sensations:
1.- I'm in a strange state of being comfortable anywhere while doing anything, a bit un-attached of the rest of the world. It can be a bit of an obstacle on my daily life, since I must be sharp and political at work or college. Is this state a good thing or not?


In my admittedly limited experience, I recall a run-in with this very thing a few years ago. Essentially, too much time was spent "off in the clouds" than "paying attention to reality", which essentially led to quite a few set-backs. It would seem that there is no danger in having one's head in the clouds if one's feet can also remain on the ground. The line between "dreamer" and "do-er" is essentially the question. Complacency is also something that needs mention as a general negative in this case. One should simply "not settle". Even the HGA is surpassed by subsequent attainments, as Dhyana is surpassed by Samadhi, trotting is surpassed by galloping, etc.

Quote: ›
2.- I get the same feeling as it was described earlier on the same post about being a piece of a major puzzle, a sense of determination, of doing something you are "destined" to do, even if it is a mundane event and I can't imagine it's repercussions. When I get that, is it instinct?, somekind of astral instinct that "knows", or possess some intuition of my place in relation of my True Will?, or is it some psichological by-product of meditation?



Perhaps its simple motivation that comes from Within? The awareness that one is indeed a part of this world as a whole, and that one's function within this world determines the ultimate outcome for that one and those affiliated with him or her? Therefore, rise up and awake!

Sounds cool at least. Just my two cents.

93 93/93
Kalki93 - Sep 18, 2007 - 10:52 PM
Post subject:
asclepio wrote: › 93
Two things,
First, Aum418,
Great posts, I'm a fan, you really know you're books and that's a must sometimes. Even though I find your responses to be a little bitter and dry, but that's my perspective. I really think you're a valuable thelemite who shares what he knows (more than the "egotistical" approach you're sometimes given).

I agree with what you say to Kali about one perceiving the world to be such and such when it really is one percieving oneself (the world is man, little Heidegger comes in handy often), so I'd like your view on the following point:
Sometimes, after a little yoga and meditation, although I haven't reach anything too grand, I get the following sensations:
1.- I'm in a strange state of being comfortable anywhere while doing anything, a bit un-attached of the rest of the world. It can be a bit of an obstacle on my daily life, since I must be sharp and political at work or college. Is this state a good thing or not?

2.- I get the same feeling as it was described earlier on the same post about being a piece of a major puzzle, a sense of determination, of doing something you are "destined" to do, even if it is a mundane event and I can't imagine it's repercussions. When I get that, is it instinct?, somekind of astral instinct that "knows", or possess some intuition of my place in relation of my True Will?, or is it some psichological by-product of meditation?

Anyway, my two points, my two questions, and that's all.
93 93/93

Oh, and I almost forgot, Kalki, calm down when you write on this forum. We're all here to learn, share and expierence, not to climb up to some pedestal and go "thou must do this or that because God says so...". I bring this up because when you say stuff like "learn from life, not from books", what it sounds like (at least to me, although I'm sure I'm not alone in this) is this "learn from MY life, not from books". Well, it's just a piece of advise, nothing more.


Asclepio, you are talking about the same thing I was saying about the Supersoul.
Just suppose Aleister Crowley knew this as well but related it in a more in an atheistic mindstate to relate to the atheists because they could not even conceive of being devoted to anyone but themselves.
I'm not saying to do something because God says so, that is your illusion and your fear because anytime I mention God I get a reaction.
I'm not saying learn from My life, not from books, learn from your own which includes everything and everyone you relate to and then rely on spiritual common-sense.
That's just good advice, if I know something I will not keep it to myself. Whatever has been revealed to me I will tell others to help them. I'm not here to tear apart Thelemic understanding.
I am a Thelemite as well as a Hare Krsna but I am also Myself.
Why do I need to calm down, you don't believe in Energized Enthusiasm?
That is the best.

[quote="Azidonis"]

93,

I agree with someone's statement above that this just make no sense what-so-ever. The "Christ" wasn't even an idea in that form under that name until "he" supposedly existed. That said, your claim is that the "anti-idea" [your words Antichrist] came 3,000 years before the idea! It makes no sense. Further, didn't it take a large number of years (like 200 or so? ..don't remember) after the so-called "death", before Cristianity actually became a religion? We can go on with this... the Jews and the idea of a Messiah, the Romans and their ideas of worship, which didn't include this "Jesus" figure at all, and if it did, it was only to make a "holy example" out of the dude by nailing him to a stick... how wonderful to die a martyr for a cause that no one has a clue about. This sound like what, a cult right? What even more sad about this, is that the Christ is sometimes equated with Dionysus, and also... Hare Krisha. Imagine that. Dead gods with dead rituals... and we have their "Ipsissimus" here preaching to us how we should view our own individul worlds...

This whole idea really popped into my head 30 years before I was born though... the Anti-Idea of it anyway.

93 93/93


Christ is not an Idea it is Krsna who is God and He is also listed in the Thelemic Saints! I was not talking about Christianity and their view of the antichrist in Revelation, I was talking how the antichrist of vedic understanding Kali is already reigning in this Age and that is a better understand than to suppose that the antichrist might come via Christian understanding which is inaccurate. Many other antichrists have also come over and over again and that is the way it has been, I'm sure there are already more.
Christianity is not a cult, since when does "Love your enemies, and Love others as yourself." denote a cult.
A cult reacts to things they don't understand and tries to promote their own lies for the sake of manipulating others.
When I perceive the world I don't perceive myself, I see others who are lost and caught up in their false sense of reality. That is not my projection.

Awareness from within involves knowing the Paratmatma in the Heart. In other words study Liber Samekh and then it is much more clear.
If I am wrong then why does this work for me? So I should say nothing because I don't agree with everyone else here?
I am simply on another level which is one of transcendence and not just arriving there, Magick is about arriving, the transcendence comes later when one is free from words or any other material chains.
If one is truly into Thelema they will learn the value of Devotion.
I tried to create Thelema in my life in my own way but it was all Destroyed as it was meant to be and nothing is more Merciful than that.

Yes, deem me a preacher, that is such naivety. Labels. Calling other names, so that is magick these days I suppose.
Don't expect me to fit whatever pigeon-holing you do with others that should fit the paradigm of what you arrive at via your own ego-centered understanding of Thelema.
False Ego is dead.
R.I.P.
Azidonis - Sep 19, 2007 - 10:06 AM
Post subject:
93,

Kalki93 wrote: ›
Christ is not an Idea it is Krsna who is God and He is also listed in the Thelemic Saints!


Well then, you must forgive me! Incidentally, my experience with Hare Krishna is walking around Hong Kong getting offered these little gold-wrapped cards by people in robes saying "Here this will bring you good luck, from Krishna". And if you let them, they will continue on with their little spiel they tell you all of this garbage about Krishna and how he is so great and that he is somehow locked away into this little item. After they finish their little skit, and if they get you to accept their item, they promptly ask you to pay $20 HKD for it as a donation to their society. The funniest thing is watching the locals... they will all look at you and shake their heads no, or even try to take the item out of your hand in order to make you get rid of it!

Personally, I don't give a damn about the list of "Saints", or Hare Krishna... just not my cup of tea. I don't go galavanting around about it though.

Quote: ›
I was not talking about Christianity and their view of the antichrist in Revelation, I was talking how the antichrist of vedic understanding Kali is already reigning in this Age and that is a better understand than to suppose that the antichrist might come via Christian understanding which is inaccurate. Many other antichrists have also come over and over again and that is the way it has been, I'm sure there are already more.


What I don't understand is what place Christ, or Krishna, or any other of these dead gods have any place on this forum.

Quote: ›
Christianity is not a cult, since when does "Love your enemies, and Love others as yourself." denote a cult.
A cult reacts to things they don't understand and tries to promote their own lies for the sake of manipulating others.


Are you f$#%ing serious? Christianity is not a cult? I won't even debate this one...

Quote: ›
When I perceive the world I don't perceive myself, I see others who are lost and caught up in their false sense of reality. That is not my projection.


Wrong. That IS your projection. This is what some of the others here have been telling you for the past week. Who are you to judge anyone at all? And who are you to do this and still call yourself a Thelemite?

Quote: ›
Awareness from within involves knowing the Paratmatma in the Heart. In other words study Liber Samekh and then it is much more clear.


I won't... this should be better left for someone else to criticize.

Quote: ›
If I am wrong then why does this work for me?


It may work for you if you live in a world where you are not challenged on a daily basis, a world where your beliefs and your goals are not met with constant ordeals. You've made many claims in your short stay here. You made the claim of a very lofty Grade. You've made the claim that almost everyone here has a distorted view of their own versions of reality, and others. You've made the claim that you "don't percieve the world myself, I see others who are caught up in their own false sense of reality", and so on. You've been challenged over these and other accusations that you have made constantly since you arrived. Yet, you continually state that it is not your projection.

Well again, I have to contend, whether I be proven right or wrong, that it is definitely your projection. One thing that must be understood is that there is no "group consciousness" or "group anything" here on Lashtal. It is an online community and these forums are used in order for people to share ideas. Members consist of various people from all over the world. There are some here who practice magick, some who only study it. Everyone here is in their own individual stage of evolution. For you to say that everyone's thinking and etc. is messed up just because you don't agree is obiously a bold move, and could be a complete self projection.

Quote: ›
So I should say nothing because I don't agree with everyone else here?


You should say what you Will. However, keep in mind that you aren't speaking to one person when the language used is collective.

Quote: ›
I am simply on another level which is one of transcendence and not just arriving there, Magick is about arriving, the transcendence comes later when one is free from words or any other material chains.


How about this? Very simply, no one cares what level you are on. As stated above, there are thousands of member on Lashtal. They range from "nobodys" like myself, to some very prominent people. What always has interested me most is watching people similar to myself share ideas and interact, while the "more prominent" people remain virtually silent here. As it should be. Don't asusme that there isn't work going on behind the scenes, and don't assume that everything you see is everything you are going to get. And please don't try and perform the awful idea of trying to take the varying evolutionary states of each individual here into your own hands by writing as though we are all a collective. If you truly are on the level you claim to be, then you should know all of this. No one comes out from behind the curtains without being introduced, begins to tell everyone how wrong and narrow they are, and expects a hearty welcome, or any kind of acceptance. This is common courtesy here, and if you do have the connection to the love you say you do, perhaps you will see this. You don't walk into a party and begin trying to slap people in the face for no good reason other than you feel they aren't dresed for the occasion. It's simple ethics.

Quote: ›
If one is truly into Thelema they will learn the value of Devotion.


Each Star will learn the value of Devotion in Its proper Orbit. Again, who are you to decide which of us knows and doesn't know the value of Devotion? Just because we don't run around chanting Hare Krishna all day?

Quote: ›
I tried to create Thelema in my life in my own way but it was all Destroyed as it was meant to be and nothing is more Merciful than that.


Good for you.

Quote: ›
Yes, deem me a preacher, that is such naivety. Labels. Calling other names, so that is magick these days I suppose.


Far from it. You initiated the idea, by "preaching to the choir." Might as well become ordained, along with your list of Saints.

Quote: ›
Don't expect me to fit whatever pigeon-holing you do with others that should fit the paradigm of what you arrive at via your own ego-centered understanding of Thelema.


It's not pigeon-holding. It's common sense and simple ethics as said above. As for the "Ego-centered" remark... if this post were ego-centered, it would've went a completely different direction. That's all there is to it.

Quote: ›
False Ego is dead.
R.I.P.


Good for you. Prove it. Show it.

93 93/93,

Az
asclepio - Sep 19, 2007 - 01:21 PM
Post subject:
93
Azidonis,
Thanks for the comments, there's something I don't understand, probably because english is not my first language, what do you mean by this?:
Quote: › The line between "dreamer" and "do-er" is essentially the question. Complacency is also something that needs mention as a general negative in this case. One should simply "not settle". Even the HGA is surpassed by subsequent attainments, as Dhyana is surpassed by Samadhi, trotting is surpassed by galloping, etc.

What do you mean by complacency?, You mean I should try and not stay for too long in that state of my head in the clouds? I guess what you say about balance, about having the head in the sky, the feet on the ground makes perfect sense.

And also,
Quote: › The awareness that one is indeed a part of this world as a whole, and that one's function within this world determines the ultimate outcome for that one and those affiliated with him or her? Therefore, rise up and awake!

That's exactly what I meant. Here's an example, sometimes I feel, I have the intuiton that I "must" talk to a person, get close to him (or her), I don't know why, so I wouldn't call it motivation, it isn't obsesion either. At the same time I "felt" like getting close to that person I felt like reading Thot's Tarot, eventually both intuitons lead to a wonderful expierence where my experience with that person and the knowledge of the tarot helped me grow a lot as a person. Is this normal? I don't think it's a bad thing, then again I have no idea what it is at all.

Kalki,
Quote: › Asclepio, you are talking about the same thing I was saying about the Supersoul.
Just suppose Aleister Crowley knew this as well but related it in a more in an atheistic mindstate to relate to the atheists because they could not even conceive of being devoted to anyone but themselves.

This is what I mean Kalki, when I said "calm down", I didn't mean the enthusiasm, it's a spanish way of saying "take it easy". As general advise, don't tell a thelemite that they're not devoted, since thelema is individualistic, we just can't "guess" what the other is thinking.

And the whole atheist approach is wrong, atheism is senseless, I'm talking about it in a philosophical sense (after all, that's what I study), Thelema truly is beyond the separation of "theistic versus atheist". I can understand this, perhaps you should try it.

And the devotion issue... You're just wrong about that. Maybe it is true that there are some egotistical thelemites out there, but there is devotion, the ritual is always unto Nuit, I'm particularly devoted as a matter of fact. Maybe too devoted, but I've done some wonderful life-changing magick through devotion to Nuit. As a matter of fact I'm a bit of a "puritan" or "conservative" when it comes to black magick, anything that is not done to achieve the sacred goal is black magick, I take that stuff very seriously in every aspect of my life.

That's what I mean with "calm down", take it easy and remember this, you don't know everything (no one does), and you don't know what other people feel and think, like when you say:

Quote: › I'm not saying to do something because God says so, that is your illusion and your fear because anytime I mention God I get a reaction.

All of a sudden you know I feel something, fear in this case. It's not advisable to pretend to know what others feel, specially in an internet forum. And I learn from my own life, that's precisely why I'm a thelemite, not a Hare Krishna, but it if works for you that's great. Let others be, that's what I say.

Oh, and if by "energized enthusiasm" you mean taking drugs, be careful, it's dangerous, then again it's your life and you decide (and I'm not saying you're on drugs, it was an advice that's all).
93 93/93
jw - Sep 19, 2007 - 03:01 PM
Post subject:
Kalki93 wrote: › Aleister Crowley knew this as well but related it in a more in an atheistic mindstate to relate to the atheists because they could not even conceive of being devoted to anyone but themselves.


On a similar note, could a rabid theist conceive of that devotion of secular humanists for their fellow humans in the absence of god(s)?


Kalki93 wrote: › If I am wrong then why does this work for me?


Perception and reality are not necessarily the same.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/20 ... rain.shtml

If what you're doing works for you, that's great. But don't expect people to gasp in awe when you jump out of your hermit cave and claim to be transcendent of everyone and their "false sense of reality". It's naive on your part to not expect to be shown directly to the House of Mirrors. I'm sure you will disagree (enthusiastically), but to me your posts have offered little more than the same "me me me" false egoism you criticize.


asclepio wrote: › As general advise, don't tell a thelemite that they're not devoted, since thelema is individualistic, we just can't "guess" what the other is thinking.

And the whole atheist approach is wrong, atheism is senseless


Atheism is no more or less senseless than theism - it is a matter of perspective. I'm sure you understand this as your follow-up statement embraces Thelema as beyond the separation. So I'm wondering why you'd even make that comment? As you said we can't guess what the other is thinking.

asclepio wrote: › Thelema truly is beyond the separation of "theistic versus atheist". I can understand this, perhaps you should try it.
Azidonis - Sep 20, 2007 - 05:40 AM
Post subject:
93 asclepio,
asclepio wrote: › 93
Azidonis,
Thanks for the comments, there's something I don't understand, probably because english is not my first language, what do you mean by this?:
Azidonis wrote: › ]The line between "dreamer" and "do-er" is essentially the question. Complacency is also something that needs mention as a general negative in this case. One should simply "not settle". Even the HGA is surpassed by subsequent attainments, as Dhyana is surpassed by Samadhi, trotting is surpassed by galloping, etc.

What do you mean by complacency?, You mean I should try and not stay for too long in that state of my head in the clouds? I guess what you say about balance, about having the head in the sky, the feet on the ground makes perfect sense.

Perhaps I cannot do much better than to offer the following, from Liber Tzaddi, " 40. My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells." This wonderful Class A verse naturally can be interpreted in many different ways and applied to many different situations. One thing that helped me out, and it may seem kind of silly, was the phrase "As a god goes, I go". Keeping simple humility in mind, I used this phrase, along with the idea that "gods" are essentially "goers", I made a sort of pneumonic, which also corresponded nicely with the Ankh, or sandle strap. Basically, I told myself that I could sit around dreaming of things all day, or I could spend my time doing them. Which is the more effective use of energy? Which is more productive to the Great Work? So every morning when I woke up and got ready for work, the last thing I did was put my shoes or boots on (since they were by the door). Putting all of that together helped me to influence my own mind that Doing is a very large part of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." It's easy to get carried off in a dream, but much more fulfilling to be able to visualize the dream and remain focused, thereby realizing the potential in the dream.

In short, I think you got the idea just fine.
asclepio wrote: › And also,
Azidonis wrote: › The awareness that one is indeed a part of this world as a whole, and that one's function within this world determines the ultimate outcome for that one and those affiliated with him or her? Therefore, rise up and awake!

That's exactly what I meant. Here's an example, sometimes I feel, I have the intuiton that I "must" talk to a person, get close to him (or her), I don't know why, so I wouldn't call it motivation, it isn't obsesion either. At the same time I "felt" like getting close to that person I felt like reading Thot's Tarot, eventually both intuitons lead to a wonderful expierence where my experience with that person and the knowledge of the tarot helped me grow a lot as a person. Is this normal? I don't think it's a bad thing, then again I have no idea what it is at all. 93 93/93

It may sound cliche', and probably is to an extent, but when usually when I am speaking with friends about the idea of 'True Will' I give the example of it being "that little voice inside of your head that always speaks to you, but for some reason you don't like to listen!" The voice seems to be right almost all of the time though, and almost everyone can relate to the analogy. They usually have very many ideas which relate to it, and when put in perspective with the idea of the Holy Guardian Angel, it begins to make much more sense.

Also keep in mind that as you are allowing yourself to be more receptive and thereby sensitive to subtler forces and experiences, your intuition also will become more prominent in some cases, and can be of great assistance. It has always been helpful for me to keep a noticable distinction between "the Voice" and "intuition". Anyway, this is just stuff that I have personally found useful thus far, and I am in no way an authority on the subject (save that for the Angel), so I'll be shutting up now.

Help this helps.

93 93/93
asclepio - Sep 20, 2007 - 07:50 PM
Post subject:
93
Azidonis,
Thanks for the reply. It's a good point, doing is essential to "do what thou...". Funny how we can live our lifes with little or no intuition at all, or not listening to "the little voice", and when we start, the world itself looks different. Thanks for the help.
93 93/93
Kalki93 - Sep 20, 2007 - 09:47 PM
Post subject:
Azidonis wrote: › 93,

Kalki93 wrote: ›
Christ is not an Idea it is Krsna who is God and He is also listed in the Thelemic Saints!


Well then, you must forgive me! Incidentally, my experience with Hare Krishna is walking around Hong Kong getting offered these little gold-wrapped cards by people in robes saying "Here this will bring you good luck, from Krishna". And if you let them, they will continue on with their little spiel they tell you all of this garbage about Krishna and how he is so great and that he is somehow locked away into this little item. After they finish their little skit, and if they get you to accept their item, they promptly ask you to pay $20 HKD for it as a donation to their society. The funniest thing is watching the locals... they will all look at you and shake their heads no, or even try to take the item out of your hand in order to make you get rid of it!


Then they are doing things wrong, I give Krsna literature free to New Age stores. Hare Krsna is free, it takes no money only interest and surrender.
At least you said or thought "Hare Krsna", so now you are purified.
Is it something to be afraid of and what are you so afraid of?
I heard someone say "What are you so afraid of" as a Challenge to me.
It was valuable.



Personally, I don't give a damn about the list of "Saints", or Hare Krishna... just not my cup of tea. I don't go galavanting around about it though.

Then you don't care much about the Great Work. We are supposed to care about all Saints and Devils and to also read books that are recommended in Magick in Theory and Practice so that we do not become dilettantes that shun others. Magick is about a Revealing and not an opposition, that's why Hitler messed up because he was stupid.
There is supposed to be a sense of community in Magick and not an "every man for himself attitude". If I am so wrong in knowing this why have I dealt with this all of my life? I have known magicians who think they are so powerful but they still live in their apartments and they are aging and would not know Eternity if it even knocked them on the head.
They know blood but not Eternity. Quite boring really.


Quote: ›
I was not talking about Christianity and their view of the antichrist in Revelation, I was talking how the antichrist of vedic understanding Kali is already reigning in this Age and that is a better understand than to suppose that the antichrist might come via Christian understanding which is inaccurate. Many other antichrists have also come over and over again and that is the way it has been, I'm sure there are already more.


What I don't understand is what place Christ, or Krishna, or any other of these dead gods have any place on this forum.

Why whould they not have place on this forum, Samadhi involves Christ or Krishna, Samadhi is about focusing on Him for spiritual understanding and not just some Effulgence.
They are not Dead Gods, and you obviously don't know what the concept of Dead Gods are, how would you know and how would I know?
Can you determine if Gods are dead or not? Or if God is dead.
Others have tried to do the same and they died and accomplished hardly anything unlike the Gods that you presume are dead.



Quote: ›
Christianity is not a cult, since when does "Love your enemies, and Love others as yourself." denote a cult.
A cult reacts to things they don't understand and tries to promote their own lies for the sake of manipulating others.


Are you f$#%ing serious? Christianity is not a cult? I won't even debate this one...

That's your judgment and not mine. You won't even touch Christianity I suppose. What's the bother? Love is not a cult, stupidity is.



Quote: ›
When I perceive the world I don't perceive myself, I see others who are lost and caught up in their false sense of reality. That is not my projection.


Wrong. That IS your projection. This is what some of the others here have been telling you for the past week. Who are you to judge anyone at all? And who are you to do this and still call yourself a Thelemite?


That is not my projection, you reacted to me so that is your projection.
People are mostly in the modes of Passion and Ignorance these days and that is an absolute fact.
I'm not judging anyone, but if someone says it's all right to kill will I will react to that , that is why I got mad in the first place.
This gives Magicians/Rishis, a bad reputation. That is not kosher!

Quote: ›
Awareness from within involves knowing the Paratmatma in the Heart. In other words study Liber Samekh and then it is much more clear.


I won't... this should be better left for someone else to criticize.

Are you telling me that you have never even looked at Liber Samekh!?
That is the most revealing liber next to Liber Al Vel Legis, in fact they go together.


Quote: ›
If I am wrong then why does this work for me?


It may work for you if you live in a world where you are not challenged on a daily basis, a world where your beliefs and your goals are not met with constant ordeals. You've made many claims in your short stay here. You made the claim of a very lofty Grade. You've made the claim that almost everyone here has a distorted view of their own versions of reality, and others. You've made the claim that you "don't percieve the world myself, I see others who are caught up in their own false sense of reality", and so on. You've been challenged over these and other accusations that you have made constantly since you arrived. Yet, you continually state that it is not your projection.

Well again, I have to contend, whether I be proven right or wrong, that it is definitely your projection. One thing that must be understood is that there is no "group consciousness" or "group anything" here on Lashtal. It is an online community and these forums are used in order for people to share ideas. Members consist of various people from all over the world. There are some here who practice magick, some who only study it. Everyone here is in their own individual stage of evolution. For you to say that everyone's thinking and etc. is messed up just because you don't agree is obiously a bold move, and could be a complete self projection.

So do you determine what goes on here on Lashtal?
That does go against Thelemic understanding. Where does the concept of freedom or democracy come in here?
If you were a guru or highly enlightened soul I would begin to trust what you say. I'm not bothered at all by what you are saying, you are really just coming off to me as a bully. You were nice to me in my intro though, I guess you have some kind of schizotypal symptoms going on.
Have a sense of humor dammit! You take religion way too seriously and you are reacting to things you don't understand.
No one into Magick should ever be that way, all it does is make one into a typical jerk that cares about themself only and they die alone.
There is a sense of community in Magick, and there always has been and there always will be otherwise there would be no need for any discussion like this on the internet.


Quote: ›
So I should say nothing because I don't agree with everyone else here?


You should say what you Will. However, keep in mind that you aren't speaking to one person when the language used is collective.


That's exactly what I did! And now you feel the need to chastise everything I say because I bring up religion. So should I be talking like a Satanist or something? Is'nt that old? What progression is there in cynicism. Why did Aleister Crowley recommend to read Holy Books and not just Thelemic Books, can you tell me the reason for that?
So now I'm poisoned for being intoxicated with Love of God are'nt I?
That's exactly what Magick is!

Quote: ›
I am simply on another level which is one of transcendence and not just arriving there, Magick is about arriving, the transcendence comes later when one is free from words or any other material chains.


How about this? Very simply, no one cares what level you are on. As stated above, there are thousands of member on Lashtal. They range from "nobodys" like myself, to some very prominent people. What always has interested me most is watching people similar to myself share ideas and interact, while the "more prominent" people remain virtually silent here. As it should be. Don't asusme that there isn't work going on behind the scenes, and don't assume that everything you see is everything you are going to get. And please don't try and perform the awful idea of trying to take the varying evolutionary states of each individual here into your own hands by writing as though we are all a collective. If you truly are on the level you claim to be, then you should know all of this. No one comes out from behind the curtains without being introduced, begins to tell everyone how wrong and narrow they are, and expects a hearty welcome, or any kind of acceptance. This is common courtesy here, and if you do have the connection to the love you say you do, perhaps you will see this. You don't walk into a party and begin trying to slap people in the face for no good reason other than you feel they aren't dresed for the occasion. It's simple ethics.


Why are you in this group then if you don't care about what level I'm on.
There is a discussion about whether Aleister Crowley is an Ipssisimus, so that is a lie! I'm sure if the Great Beast Himself came on here to discuss this with you you would care. Not that I am saying that that is who I am.


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If one is truly into Thelema they will learn the value of Devotion.


Each Star will learn the value of Devotion in Its proper Orbit. Again, who are you to decide which of us knows and doesn't know the value of Devotion? Just because we don't run around chanting Hare Krishna all day?

Chanting Hare Krsna is the best, nothing ever is and that is a fact and I dare you to disprove it! Give it a try, see how worthless it is. See how it does nothing for no one. See how no lives are protected when Hare Krsna is chanted. Once again you are insulting a Thelemic Saint, who is none other than God Himself!

Quote: ›
I tried to create Thelema in my life in my own way but it was all Destroyed as it was meant to be and nothing is more Merciful than that.


Good for you.

Yes, very very very very very Voice of God wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Om Namah Shivaya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Quote: ›
Yes, deem me a preacher, that is such naivety. Labels. Calling other names, so that is magick these days I suppose.


Far from it. You initiated the idea, by "preaching to the choir." Might as well become ordained, along with your list of Saints.

My list of Saints, funny how you call it My list of Saints. You know this is a very important part of a Thelemic Ritual which is to acknowledge the Saints. Even Friedrich Nietsche is a Saint!


Quote: ›
Don't expect me to fit whatever pigeon-holing you do with others that should fit the paradigm of what you arrive at via your own ego-centered understanding of Thelema.


It's not pigeon-holding. It's common sense and simple ethics as said above. As for the "Ego-centered" remark... if this post were ego-centered, it would've went a completely different direction. That's all there is to it.

It is ego-centred, you just don't realize that because you are not aware of it.


Quote: ›
False Ego is dead.
R.I.P.


Good for you. Prove it. Show it.

I already did as I always have done. It's nothing new to me at all. I'm just here to help people and that is all.
93 93/93,

93/108 ad infinitum!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Az
Azidonis - Sep 21, 2007 - 04:16 AM
Post subject:
93,

Was the above supposed to be a post?

If is was, did it concern the topic, which is "Attaining Dhyana and Samadhi"?

Will the Emperor EVER remove his clothes?!?!?

Find out next time, on Lashtal! Same usual time, same url.

93 93/93

P.S. I will no longer be responding to the off-topic mess which has ensued.
Uni_Verse - Sep 27, 2007 - 04:27 PM
Post subject:
An interesting tid bit from The Stone Edition of The Chumash (essentially the Torah):

Accompanying note to Exodus verse 15 (The Song by the Sea):

"In the Torah's definition a 'song' is a profound and unusual spiritual phenomenon... the condition in which all the apparantly unrealated and contradictory phenomena do indeed meld into a coherent, merciful, comprehensible whole."

"...because they believed... they could sing"

"Only when Creation became one harmoniios whole in their minds and hearts could the people translate it into a human song"
Wizardiaoan - Mar 07, 2008 - 05:27 AM
Post subject:
Hi All,

444

I posted a spiritual experience earlier in this thread some months ago that caused a slight stir (as it included sacramental psychedelic usage, its method of free jamming music was untraditional, and its claim was a little much). Upon reading more Ramana Maharshi, I am pretty confident that it was Nirvikalpa Samadhi, but that I did not sustain it, its real magick was gone within a week. I read that Ramana says this may occur, and am thinking that is what happened. Anyway, I wish to take back that it was ultimate enlightenment, it was a taste of Void Consciousness for ~10sec., its discontinuity betrays it I see now. I can write clearly about it now, and follows is the new understanding I have developed coinciding with my second great spiritual experience of my Anahata chakra opening. This is excerpted from a letter I wrote David Allen Hulse (I am frank in revealing this, as the personal plays a certain important part in the relaying):

My heart chakra has opened this past month, as a definite spiritual unfolding, the second of my life. Won't get into details, but to say that it was unexpected, I wasn't doing any specific Anahata work, its pronouncement is partly why I can see the Truth of it. To share a little more, over some days I suddenly began realizing my heart chakra shining with such stunning beauty, but when I would try to intuit the color/geometric scheme, it would diminish. It is still shining, but I cannot describe it really, other than having the primary colors shimmering in the astral, with sky blue, with the first 12 Tarot Keys around it, etc., with the blue of Jupiter as its bindu, around which are 11 little white petals. Not important, its opening is. I think yours has opened in the past is why I wish to be brief, because words distract me from the experience (I am working hard to stabilize its new flowering through infinite devotion).

I have been making visual studies of the chakra scheme, and some days ago I became inspired to paint another Sri, just as I painted you, for me, before my birthday of 4/7, while I am still 33 = LiLa, LaLiTa, etc., to magickally unite with that symbolism deeply, and give my Self a present. I actually considered it as a pretty powerful visual inside the Anahata chakra, and I am knowing the upcoming visual work will facilitate my balancing and stabilization of my Anahata, for I feel as a young sprout--there is deep, continuous true balance there, but it is vulnerable.

May I also say that my views towards drugs has changed, I have grown too subtle for them. They just obsess no matter how small the dose now. I am glad to be out of their influence. I do not think them of any real use even in workings that require, or rather are able to equilibrate, tons of energy, like music jams or intercourse. At age 20 I used 2 tabs of LSD to play keyboard with friends and attained Nirvikalpa Samadhi for ~10 seconds. That was fun, a pretty high magickal working, and gave me confidence in my genius; that is, my ability to reach a naturally high orgiastic balance. It was actually a young man's natural orgasm in "love under will", but I was not spiritual at the time too much, and the whole thing still has an egoic success quality to it that is discontinuous--within days to a week I sunk back into a normal state (with only some certain gnosis of the possibility of attaining void consciousness, which both gave me balance and imbalance).

This heart opening is so much deeper, it is the continuous "love under will" of Anahata, the fruit of me trying to balance myself from that initial spiritual opening at age 20 for 13 years haha. There is even some fear that I may diminish it too far and lose it by even speaking of it. It is fearlessness itself, absolute certainty, the epitome of balance, ever now. This may demarcate becoming the Atman, the True Self. I have no desire to much consider the higher chakras now, it is funny, the balance of Anahata is so important to maintain to me. It is the all-important thing to do.

Also I realize I took the perceived heart opening or enlightenment that I believed and could sense you had (you were my prime example)--I imagined you ever as basically an enlightened, deeply knowledgeable, man buddha, and I could see the shimmering colors of Creation, of the Tree of Life, and yes deeply the Anahata astral primary colors--actually I imagined you as the epitome of enlightenment, a perfect object of adoration--and then I willed through the Force of Truth and Virtue that infinite Beauty and Sacredness upon me, cutting out all falsity from my Soul, annihilating it all with infinite ferocity, meeting poison with greater poison. When all was crushed sufficiently to ashen skull dust I suppose it happened, and I am so infinitely grateful that is has! Aum. Ha. Spiritual Maturity finally!

But moreover I had to relate this stunning observation I just made today, I find it remarkable:

I always remembered you saying the esoteric planetary order may be the true one for the chakras. I always thought so too, though I entertained several models. It is hard to esoterically accept that the Golden Dawn Tarot order, with its assignment of the planets, is somehow the true vibrations of the chakras--this really means that this order was implicit in Hebrew, and that the chakra gnosis is to be looked at as some lost intact pristine gnosis from Egypt or something!

I had entertained the various models, but over the last 2 weeks I have realized and become certain that the Mercury-Moon-Venus-Jupiter-Mars-Sun-Saturn correpsondences are indeed the true esoteric correlations for the 7 chakras. Each chakra has these bindu vibrations as their essence.

What I wanted to relate was that today, upon considering my Anahata opening as an universal spiritual attainment to be undergone by all, and thinking to see if it could correspond to any of Crowley's A.A. Grades (and the Tree of Life Supremely!), I found they do absolutely! Here they are:

1. Sahasrara = Kether = Ipsissimus (2 Mercury = Orange)
2. Ajna = Chockmah = Magus (3 Moon = Purple)
3. Vishuddha = Binah = Magister Templi (4 Venus = Green)
4. Anahata = Chesed = Adeptus Exemptus (11 Jupiter = Blue)
5. Manipura = Geburah = Adeptus Major (17 Mars = Red)
6. Swadhisthana = Tiphareth = Adeptus Minor (20 Sun = Yellow)
7. Muladhara = Netzach (and perhaps the rest) = Philosophus = (22 Saturn = Indigo)

This is the ancient gnosis that was in full bloom in Egypt is my esoteric speculation, since it is the natural universal blooming of spiritual consciousness (The Pharaoh was Magus, the Uraeus serpent was Ajna activated). My initial Aha moment was realizing that it seemed true that I had attained Exempt Adept, from the color vibrations of the Beautific Vision of Jupiter, with my Heart opening--and then I found that Vishuddha as Venus went excellently with Binah as Goddess. When I saw Ajna as the Big Will (as opposed to the little Will of Jupiter), I realized I had completely underestimated this chakra. This came as a Vision of Neptune, a Mature God, arising from a wavy sea in my brain head or skull and in the astral in front of me, where the horizon line was important, with His Supreme Trident of Will, the outer two prongs of which are designed so that they gently seem to converge upon the center spear's point. The Trident of Will arising above the sea may be the big symbol of Ajna/Chokmah, imagined in the casing of the skull and the astral imagination at the same time. Finally, I have intentionally stayed away from Sahasrara (and Ajna and Vishuddha); I did see some colored Orange flowers on a Ganesha statue that vibrated beautifully, letting me know the correlations of Orange to Sahasrara, which is so largely white, was correct. Upon this, I realized that it is the seat of high transmission and communication in some sense, and immediately realized that over-spiritualized people left the balance of the heart chakra too soon via ego temptation, or etc., and that an over-activity in the Sahasrara is the cause for all those crazy alien transmissions (I see Dr. George King as a prime example of this).

One thing I noted is that when the solar gnosis of Tiphareth is only second from the bottom, you know you're in for a hell of a ride! Note also how 4, 5, 6 (the primary colors) are completely and directly correlated to each other, Tree of Life Sphere color and planet to Chakra color and planet. I realize most people will go for the normal attribution of Tiphareth to Anahata, and Yesod to Muladhara I suppose, but I think the above are the pristine correspondences.

This unites the 2 great cosmological diagrams, and models of spiritual consciousness's evolution, together perfectly. At least I think so... feel free to respond honestly, where you think I might be in err--in this matter or any other.

Thanks for listening, I am reaching greater clarity by writing, I have been doing a fair bit of it recently. Hope you enjoyed reading this.

Here is me waiting to hear you play the Sacred Vibrations in Your Sacred Presence in Infinite Space,

Here is me crying tears of joy,

P.S. Seeing your Heart magickal name I.A.M. (initials only given out of respect) = 186 has begun to cause me to rethink that Latin Simplex may be the truest inner heart Latin code in some magickal way, all by force of your truth! [I am of the usual mindset that Latin is a Greek-based Order]. (edited minorly)

323

Fraternally Yours,

4774

*Lashtal members apply to my heart opening here if you wish, I am going to duplicate the Tree of Life/Chakra correspondences and create a new thread, seeing as they are basically off topic, and this thread is very long. I'll call it Chakra/Tree of Life Correspondences, where various models may be brought up, and commented upon.

**Also, if the brief mention of substance use makes the moderators unhappy I will gladly edit my post upon notification.
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