lashtal.com
Magick - Anyone read DuQuette's new book Enochian Vision Magick?
bopgun23 - Jun 13, 2008 - 12:34 AM
Post subject: Anyone read DuQuette's new book Enochian Vision Magick?
I'm wondering if anyone has had a serious gander at DuQuette's just released "Enochian Vision Magick".
Primarily, I'm curious if anyone can confirm that it's just not a rehash of "Enochian World of Aleister Crowley".
DuQuette claims in an interview that his new book outlines a more comprehensive version of the enochian system in accord with the dee/kelly manuscripts, as opposed to the relatively incomplete gd/crowley system.
I rather like DuQuette's writing, but he's never been one for complexity or staunch authenticity. Thusly, I'm a bit wary.
Since I haven't been able to check it out at a local shop yet... anyone have something to say?
Poelzig - Jun 13, 2008 - 02:14 AM
Post subject: RE: Anyone read DuQuette
So many people should be grateful the Enochian material has been stigmatized as too difficult for beginners, so they can edge themselves in as "interpreters." Really the original Dee material is less complex than the original GD/Equinox Enochiana - all of which can be grasped by anyone who takes the time to follow the instructions closely.
For the original Dee material, I'd stick to Robert Turner first and Geoffrey James second.
If you look hard enough you will also find decent scans of the original Dee manuscripts online. Turner and James are useful references when the original Mss are illegible (frequent).
The drawback of the GD/Equinox enochiana is that it Mathers etc. added a ton of material (correspondences, Egyptian mythology, chess etc.) that has NO relation to the original Dee material.
Here's another rankler: As much as Regardie and other ceremonial magicians denigrate Anton LaVey's use of the Enochian keys, LaVey took FAR less liberties with the original Dee material than Mathers/Crowley did.
Poelzig - Jun 13, 2008 - 02:17 AM
Post subject: RE: Anyone read DuQuette
Laycock's dictionary is useful too.
Also, I've not been impressed by anything from DuQuette yet, but maybe I've just been studying this stuff too long to be impressed by much "new." Old wine in new bottles, and usually the old bottles were better.
Lucius - Jun 13, 2008 - 05:51 AM
Post subject: Yes.
I've read the book in question (Enochian Vision Magick): It's definitely very dissimilar to "The Enochian World of Aleister Crowley: Enochian Sex Magick" and, I think, very worthwhile.
Basically, I think Lon is trying to bring out a lot of the original elements that one doesn't see talked about all that much that are present in the Dee/Kelley material but not particularly in the GD/Crowley forms of Enochian magick.
He goes in depth talking about the Enochian Temple Furnature, which I really appreciated myself. Surely there are a few people who may think they've got a handle on that but I tend to imagine that anybody looking at a Sigilum dei Ameth for the first time is probably going to think the exact same thing "Whoa. That looks complex and I have no idea what it means. (or even where to start figuring out what it means.)"
If someone was having that sort of dilemma; I would point them to Enochian Vision Magick with no reservations.
There's also the issue of approach to the system; he takes a completely different route in this book than the standard GD temple openings or Watchtower Ritual method so if you are interested in really working the system from a different angle you might want to pick this book up and figure out what I'm talking about and give it a whirl.
Leviathan - Jun 13, 2008 - 09:23 AM
Post subject: Re: Anyone read DuQuette's new book Enochian Vision Magick?
bopgun23 wrote: › I rather like DuQuette's writing, but he's never been one for complexity or staunch authenticity.
Have you read "The Magick of Aleister Crowley"?
In light of that sentence; if you haven't, I recommend it. He's got some things in there you might appreciate.
Leviathan - Jun 13, 2008 - 11:15 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Anyone read DuQuette
L.M.D. is infamous for scattering initiated points of view throughout his books, even those aimed for Beginners. It's not something we openly say, but that you know others have seen it there at all; should be important for you to take note of, Imho.
zardoz - Jun 13, 2008 - 09:47 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Anyone read DuQuette
Leviathan wrote: › L.M.D. is infamous for scattering initiated points of view throughout his books, even those aimed for Beginners. It's not something we openly say, but that you know others have seen it there at all; should be important for you to take note of, Imho.
I agree! No we don't openly say it, do we? Only privately on the internet 
I also agree with Lucius.
I'm nearly finished "Enochian Vision Magic" and find it a completely different beast than "Enochian World of Aleister Crowley". The latter covers enochia as greatly modified by Crowley and the GD. The former goes to the source, Dee and Kelly and faithfully presents the system(s) as they received it which is significantly more extensive. Duquette, as ever, gets down to the basics and presents this material in a very practical and doable fashion. Dee and Kelly's magic may seem easy to some, but if it is that simple, I wonder why it's taken over 400 years for a concise user's guide like this one to appear.
I plan to review "Enochian Vision Magic" if I can find the time unless someone else wants to?
גמל - Jul 01, 2008 - 11:52 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Anyone read DuQuette
93!
I think this book is one of the best practical guides to enochian magick. And I have to confess I like Brother Lons style of writing. I attended a seminar in Hamburg about this topic that was held by Lon 2 month ago and that was a very interesting and entertaining introduction. Sure, there are books out there with a deeper side towards enochian magick but I personally would advocate this book for beginners and (more advanced) practicioners alike. Or just for people who want to know what this Dee-stuff is all about 
93 93/93
גמל
hawthornrussell - Jul 01, 2008 - 03:49 PM
Post subject:
I have always been surprised that supposed Thelemites and occultists would want to engage and have dialogue with the Enochian entities. If you read over the Dee material that has survived it gives an inconsistent picture of what the Enochian entities actually are. Remember these entities went out of their way to be deceitful and lie to Dee and Talbot/Kelly about the purpose of the Enochian system/tablets. And for all their supposed abilities they couldnt protect Dee from ruin and theft of his property and dignity. Even now there is no proper work on Liber Logaeth and its true purpose. Also the fact that that there is missing material from Dee that was destroyed lining baking trays of all things so it coukld be argued its an incomplete system. Secondly the Enochian entities put their own interests and that of "IAD"/"IAD Baltoh" ahead of humanity. If anything the Enochian entities at the time of Dee had a low opinion of humanity. Thirdly with all the material open to the public, nothing useful or enlightening has come from the Enochian material for almost a century. From that stance, does DuQuette address these issues in his new book or does he just keep dipping into Crowley's writing to fill out the holes?
DD - Jul 02, 2008 - 09:01 AM
Post subject: Buy it
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I have just started reading Enochian Vision Magick and find L.M.D.'s writing style to be, as usual, filled with personal examples and easy to read. His book explains through a lot of the basics of Dee's Enochian system. He also provides complete rituals based on his experience. I don't know if I will use his style of working, but it is a benefit to see how other people work the Enochian system.
Quote: ›
I have always been surprised that supposed Thelemites and occultists would want to engage and have dialogue with the Enochian entities.
Now is that "supposed" Thelemites and occultist? or are you refering to real Thelemites and occultist? 
Quote: ›
nothing useful or enlightening has come from the Enochian material for almost a century
Why do I use Enochian Magick? For enlightenment and useful information. I find that Enochian Magick, especially visions from the Aethyrs, can be very personalized and may apply only to me or my situation. Personallized visions and information may be why "useful and enlighten(ed)...Enochian material" has not been broadcast to the world in the last 100 years. There is also a "Silence" to the art of Magick that any real magician discovers for him or herself. Need I mention the social taboo of magick over the last 100 years and beyond? I would also point out that what one views as "useful and enlightened" might be viewed as useless by the unititiated or those not ready to receive enlightenment.
Now, Am I an expert on Enochian Magick? No.
Do I know everything about everything concerning Enochian Magick? No.
Do I use Enochian Magick for my benefit? Yes
Is Lon Milo Duquette's book worth buying? In my opinion, Yes.
Love is the law, love under will.
Lucius - Jul 02, 2008 - 10:31 AM
Post subject:
I agree with Double Daleth: I think that Enochian work just doesn't get a lot of press.
That's not a bad thing, necessarily.
Some of the objections to being more "above boards" with it is that you're getting a somewhat subjective slant on what is an objective cosmos when you work with the system.
Lon hints at this in "My Life With The Spirits" when he is talking about the difference between "Pathworkings" and Scrying the 30 Enochian Aethyrs, the latter of which he seems to advocate because it's just more personal and, therefore, probably a lot more useful to anyone who gives it a chance.
I tend to look at the system as a shift in perspectives as though I found some angelic sunglasses sitting around and I'm trying them on.
I may not agree with some points but my perspective is that of an earthbound human with a lot of precocious thoughts and stubborn ways.
What are lies will be shown clearly as such in time.
What I learn about situations, questions and myself through Enochian however is, to me, helpful.
zardoz - Jul 02, 2008 - 07:10 PM
Post subject:
hawthornrussell wrote: › From that stance, does DuQuette address these issues in his new book or does he just keep dipping into Crowley's writing to fill out the holes?
One agenda of this book seems to be to present material received by Kelley and Dee that was overlooked or passed over by Crowley and the G D . LMD goes to the source in this book as much as possible. He is also quite clear about documenting what his sources are.
piscean93 - Jul 03, 2008 - 02:56 AM
Post subject: LMD: Enochian Vision Magick
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law
93,
I finished said book approximately two weeks ago, and, with a friend, have been putting it to work. It is not a rehash of "The Enochian World of Aleister Crowley". One could consider it an extension of that work. It is, far and away, the best working (to my knowledge) manual on Enochiana on the market currently in print. He breaks everything down into step-by-step instructions, and even has blank templates in there to use for various parts of Enochian Magick. One other point worth mentioning is that I found some of his templates and graphics are the same as Benjamin Rowe material. He gives a compare and contrast of many different authors' takes on Enochian as well, mentioning authors like Donald Tyson and Peterson's wonderful book. I agree with earlier postings that Laycock's dictionary is an excellent companion to LMD's book, as it has been very useful thus far.
93,
Love is the law, love under Will