lashtal.com
Requests - Numbers of Thelemites?
Astaroth - Jun 29, 2008 - 12:41 AM
Post subject: Numbers of Thelemites?
Greetings,
Does anyone have any idea on the _numbers_ of Thelemites (of all sorts) in the UK (and USA)?
I wonder if this would simply be a hopeless request because perhaps there would be different levels of definition of a 'Thelemite'. I suppose *self-definition* as a Thelemite will have to do, as one would need to count "influenced by Crowley/Thelema" in a whole 'nother category (undoubtedly big, as it would be).
Would any recent British census have counted 'Thelemites' or would they have been subsumed under a term such as 'Pagan' perhaps?
Thanks,
93
Astaroth.
kuniggety - Jun 29, 2008 - 10:16 AM
Post subject: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
The vast majority of modern day pagans have been influenced by Crowley, whether they realize it or not. For those who actually self stylize themselves as Thelemites, I think it would be next to impossible to determine. You can't even look at Thelemite order membership because it isn't exactly a requirement to be a Thelemite to belong to an order, and many choose not to, and even quite a number of the people that belong to organizations like the OTO aren't Thelemites but rather just looking for companionship in a like minded environment.
Astaroth - Jun 29, 2008 - 11:41 AM
Post subject: Number of Thelemites
Yes I agree with both your points. I guess I'm just interested to see how popular Crowley's legacy has become. But if I'm going to include the broader Neo-Pagan category as "those influenced by" then I think it is indeed uncountable!
~Astaroth.
lashtal - Jun 29, 2008 - 11:50 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
kuniggety wrote: › You can't even look at Thelemite order membership because it isn't exactly a requirement to be a Thelemite to belong to an order, and many choose not to
That's very true - by any means of counting, though, several thousand have taken the trouble to join the various Thelema-specific organisations.
And it's interesting that nearly 5,000 people have bothered to register as members of this site, which is devoted to only one small aspect of Thelema: the life, works and legacy of an obscure English poet.
The figure that's often bandied about - with what justification I don't know - is 30,000 Thelemites (self-described as such).
Astaroth - Jun 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
Post subject: Number of Thelemites
Thanks for that. Yes, I thought that I had seen a number for membership to this site and then I couldn't find it. Indeed, I wouldn't be thinking that I could just count formal order membership numbers - presuming that I'd have access to them anyway!
I don't think I'm going to get a specific number. I was just really fishing about for numbers that people *thought* might be accurate, and if I did actually get some sort of more really accurate number that'd be good.
As I said, I'm interested in how popular, and in how desirable people think it is to adopt Thelema as a belief system.
~Astaroth.
zain - Jun 29, 2008 - 12:34 PM
Post subject:
Quote: › Astaroth said "Thelema as a belief system"
Is Thelema even a belief system? It could be argued that Thelema is more a system of action and experience. Thelema places more value on direct experience and action more so than taking at face value misplaced dogma. So even the idea of Thelema "being" a belief isnt a clear case.
I know its off topic but i thought i would say it, to show that culturally Thelema is a slippery thing to get a grasp off. ( Also the issue over what would constitute a Thelemite? There is no monopoly over the term. Pre Crowley Thelemites? Post Crowley Typhonians? Agape observing Orthodox Christians? And considering that Thelema could be described has an "action" a state of will/being, how many professed Thelemites have reached that state of pure will/being to justify being called a Thelemite? Thelema doesnt seem to like being pigeon holed.)
darkflame - Jun 30, 2008 - 10:46 AM
Post subject:
i agree, it's difficult to count numbers as the definition of a thelemite, or of thelema, can be problematic. in this way i think it's similar to rastafari, in that it's a spiritual path where there are many people drawn to it from many different areas, but there isn't one organisational body, and it's more like "a way of life" than any organised religion or philosophy (except perhaps certain schools of buddhism).
the_real_simon_iff - Jun 30, 2008 - 01:02 PM
Post subject:
93!
Not that I can deliver any numbers here, but I think the definition of a Thelemite is not important in this case, since Astaroth is specifically seeking how "popular" Thelema has become. And I guess it is enough if someone believes to be a Thelemite (whatever this is) to be counted in. In the same manner all people who could be described as "Thelemites" without knowing it should not be counted (there was a thread once on how Thelemic some people are without ever having heard of Crowley). I think most people who claim to be Thelemites have heard of Crowley - and those few who took the name because of some fiction of Rabelais can be disregarded. There also so-called Satanists who prefer to be called Thelemites because it sounds less embarassing probably, and I think those should be counted too. So - I would say - forget about belief system or not, forget about pre- or post-Crowley, forget about Thelema altogether. To see how popular Thelema has become, it should be enough to know how many people think they are Thelemites - but I don't know how many they are unfortunately.
Love=Law
Lutz
jlcrow - Jun 30, 2008 - 02:13 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
lashtal wrote: › The figure that's often bandied about - with what justification I don't know - is 30,000 Thelemites (self-described as such).
Paul, I find this number interesting. If possible, do you know a source? I ask because the OTO (caliphate some call it) claims a membership of roughly 3000, thus 10% of the 30,000. While we can debate the reality of both the 30,000 and 3,000, it does lead one to ask, where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema.
(After rereading this it occurs to me that many will say they are here on the board or working outside the Order, etc. My point is to not offend, but to point out that joining an organization is a way of participating that is in line with how Crowley presented Thelema. We have a few thousand others in other OTOs and other Non-OTO orgs. That still leaves tens of thousands of Thelemites in which Thelema manifests in their live in a variety of ways. It would be interesting to see how divergent that is. I think the online community is only a small portion of the overall 30K Paul mentions.)
Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used? Red Wheel/Weiser had a heck of a time in the past selling out certain titles and others sold well for a while, but then slowed considerable. Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
While Astaroth asked in the sense to find out how popular or "big" Thelema is, the question has larger implications. And if we don't have any clues as to how to approach it, then we are at a significant disadvantage when representing it to those on the outside, as well as determining the viability of markets or scaling things to serve those who consider themselves Thelemites in any form or fashion.
In the end it is a really important question and it is unfortunate that there is no way of really knowing right now.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 03:28 PM
Post subject: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Astaroth wrote: ›
Does anyone have any idea on the _numbers_ of Thelemites (of all sorts) in the UK (and USA)?
I don't want to make too much of this, but why only in the UK (and USA)? Surely there are some Thelemites in other countries, even in other English speaking countries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand...). In terms of the OTO, former Yugoslavia, before the wars in the 90s, had the largest community in Europe and second in numbers globally. Or we do not count?
lashtal - Jun 30, 2008 - 03:54 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
jlcrow wrote: › I find this number interesting. If possible, do you know a source?
No, if I knew the source I'd have mentioned it: the figure has been, as I say, "bandied about". I wouldn't have the faintest idea whether or not it's at all accurate.
Quote: › where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema.
I'm rather baffled by the question, to be honest. What am I, for example "doing with my Thelema"? Living it, working with it, being it, serving it. Am I a member of any Thelemic organisations? No. Is this relevant? Does a Christian need to attend meetings to be a Christian?
Quote: › My point is to not offend, but to point out that joining an organization is a way of participating that is in line with how Crowley presented Thelema.
It's certainly "a" way of participating, but possibly not the way that a significant proportion of Thelemites would choose.
Quote: › Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used?
By "engaging in the works of Crowley" do you mean: how many books do they buy? Again, I'm not sure that this is entirely relevant to the question at hand. Thelemites could, of course, buy just one book and then burn it!
Quote: › Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
Indeed.
Quote: › And if we don't have any clues as to how to approach it, then we are at a significant disadvantage when representing it to those on the outside...
Would claiming 100,000 adherents, or a million, change its representation? Why would it matter? If size meant anything in such matters, surely we'd all be Buddhists.
Quote: › In the end it is a really important question and it is unfortunate that there is no way of really knowing right now.
You're right: there's no way of "really knowing". I don't, however, think it's "really important" - just of passing interest.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 04:14 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
lashtal wrote: › Does a Christian need to attend meetings to be a Christian?
It depends. If you are a Catholic, the largest denomination by the way, the answer is yes.
Quote: › If size meant anything in such matters, surely we'd all be Buddhists.
.
No, we'd all the Christians. Catholics in fact.
lashtal - Jun 30, 2008 - 04:46 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Iskandar wrote: › No, we'd all the Christians. Catholics in fact.
My error: you're absolutely right, of course. Either way, we wouldn't all be Thelemites if the number of adherents was significant in any meaningful sense.
And please, no-one bring up the "Thelema is/is not a religion" argument on this thread! It was only an example - and a very poor one in any case.
Aleisterion - Jun 30, 2008 - 06:19 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
"...where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema."
To each his own. I've been a dedicated Thelemite for more than 20 years and I've never belonged to any exterior institution or organization. Being a very reclusive and solitary sort, and lacking good social skills, my Thelema is directed away from flocks and crowds. But it is nevertheless a very intense and devoted Thelema. No magical order is requisite to being a Thelemite. And not all the best Thelemites suffer the herd-instinct so much either --- not that it's a bad thing to belong to an org. I've contemplated several such initiatory systems of my own devising, and they do have their value. But ultimately the loftiest spiritual experiences are yours alone.
kuniggety - Jun 30, 2008 - 06:44 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
jlcrow wrote: ›
Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used? Red Wheel/Weiser had a heck of a time in the past selling out certain titles and others sold well for a while, but then slowed considerable. Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
I've been thinking about this question and the answer in book sales is, I think, the closest we're going to get for an accurate count. While Paul makes a good point that a Thelemite could have just bought Liber L and burned it, I would say a good majority of those who actually take heart to Thelema are going to buy at least 2 or 3 of the Beast's books. What makes it even harder to answer is the fact that there are admirers of Crowley's work and study some of his work, and even incorporate some of his magickal system, without self stylizing themselves as a Thelemite. I really think 30k is on the high side. 30k people who have incorporated Thelema and Crowley's magick into their religion/philosphy, sure, but not those who when asked the question of what their religion is, answer Thelema.
I think Paul has a reasonable reaction to the "what are the other 27k doing?" Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema. Even belonging to the AA, which is more aligned with Thelema, doesn't constitute one being a Thelemite. One's involvement in Thelema, or any religion for that matter, is entirely a personal affair and totally unrelated to any involvement in any earthly/mundane organization.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 07:32 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
kuniggety wrote: › Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema.
Let's see: Being involved in it for 25 years, revising its complete rituals so that they are aligned with Thelema, leaving all its written works to it: this equals an Order that isn't what Crowley envisioned. Calling what some call Caliphate OTO (for that's what has been implied) a psedu-masonic Order and claiming that three thousand people involved with it have nothing to do with either personal involvement or Thelema - that is such bigotry and ignorance and riding a high horse. Besides, the question that John asked was a genuine one: it deals with an issue that Buddhists call sangha, community. Their claim is that there are three jewels, that depend on each other, that cannot be separated from each other. The awakened person: personal embodiment of enlightenment (Buddha). His doctrine (dharma). The community of those who accept the doctrine and strive towards awakening (sangha). As I said, you cannot have them separately. Buddha has left his tree and started associating with people in order to share his insight: without it he would not have been a Buddha. Crowley mentions at few places that he will not be a pratyeka (or, pacekka) Buddha - a solitary adept who cares only of his own enlightenment and his own nirvana and that his preferences are with Bodhisattvas, those who keep reincarnating in order to help others awake (or, in the phrase of Ankh-f-n-khonsu, to do his pleasure on the Earth among the legions of living). Now, one does not have to be a member of a particular Order in order to be a member of community, there are many ways of being social, but it is really disappointing to see people being so condescending towards those who have chosen to join - whatever you may think, the fact is that it is a - Crowley's OTO.
I have to express my admiration to the initiates of OTO who have retained their dignity despite all the condescending remarks against their Order, their Frater Superior, their vision of fraternity, and their own brethren and their personal and magical worthiness.
kuniggety - Jun 30, 2008 - 07:37 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not being condescending at all towards the Caliphate OTO... I'm just saying that belonging to a fraternal organization, that has removed the magickal teachings that Crowley taught, has nothing to do with ones being a Thelemite. Does belonging to a Church make a Christian a Christian? Hardly. It's their belief in Christ. A person can get involved in the OTO to be in a community with like minded invididuals but its hardly indicative of their involvement with Thelema.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 07:42 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
So in order for me not to put words in your mouth, could you please substantiate: which magical teachings have been removed from OTO, by who and when?
kuniggety - Jun 30, 2008 - 07:48 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
There are no magickal/spritual attainment required for the grades. But anywho, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand and if you really feel like discussing this with me, then PM me. It's neither here nor there what I feel about the Caliphate OTO, which is entirely NOT negative, but rather I don't feel belonging to the order has anything to do with how good of a Thelemite one is. Hell, I belong to one of the lineages of the AA, and I have the same feelings towards it that it's not indicative of how good/pious of a Thelemite I am.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 08:08 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
There were never magical / spiritual requirements for the OTO while Crowley was its Head, they are not part of the system. You have to figure out the 'secret' of the IX degree by yourself and there some some magical tests appropriate for some degrees, but whatever is there is as it was while Crowley was alive and in accordance with his own design. The Order is a fraternal organization, built upon the principle of ancient mysteries, with graded procession of instructions being imparted to the initiates. You are confusing OTO and A.'. A.'. - a common mistake. However, my disagreement with you was based on your claim that OTO is a pseudo-masonic Order that has removed its own magical teachings and is not what Crowley designed - none of which is true. As for whether there is any value if a person is its member in terms of their own practice of Thelema, it is a moot point. We could never know and we should not care. We should mind our own business.
lashtal - Jun 30, 2008 - 09:16 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Iskandar: I don't know if there's some sort of contract that someone forgot to get me to sign when I started LAShTAL...
You know: the one that says that any mention of "OTO" in any thread must initiate (no pun intended) an immediate flurry of self-righteous posts that ignore common sense.
In case you've forgotten, this thread is about estimating the number of Thelemites and it seems that we've all agreed actual accurate figures are impossible. For some reason you've taken offence at the suggestion by another contributor to this thread that the OTO is a "pseudo-Masonic Order": to be honest, there's no need to do so. "Irregular Masonic" might be more accurate and tactful but I don't think any harm was intended.
By the way, I used to enjoy your posts a lot more when you used your previous username!
Back on topic everyone, please!
jlcrow - Jun 30, 2008 - 10:48 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
It is unfortunate that those who decided to reply to my thread also decided to ignore the comment of "That still leaves tens of thousands of Thelemites in which Thelema manifests in their live in a variety of ways. It would be interesting to see how divergent that is."
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:09 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Paul and Kuniggety - my apologies if I was rude in my responses. I still think that Kuniggety was condescending in his post and that he did not substantiate his accusations against the OTO. I was not aware that my posts were straying off the topic - not does it seem to me that it is possible not to get off the topic all the time - very often this is how any discussion progresses, you pick up a thread of conversation and it takes another turn. I was trying to make my point that those three thousand that are pert of the OTO should not be qualified as those who have joined something that has renounced Crowley's vision or some other words to that effect. Why is defending my opinion on these issues interpreted as a "flurry of self-righteous post that ignore common sense" is beyond me. However, my intention was to correct what I considered baseless accusation in Kunigety's post and I did not mean - nor I still do - to be rude. If I was, I sincerely apologize.
lashtal - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:24 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
No problem at all: the site has experienced some rather foolish posts recently as the result of the traditional "my OTO is better than your OTO" squabble and I'm just alert to the possibility of it re-surfacing. I can see that "pseudo-Masonic" could be considered pejorative, although I don't believe that Kuniggety intended to insult, based in part on his posting history.
No need for apologies, though: you have every right to express your love for the Order to which you belong. Nuff said.
Iskandar - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:45 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Comments appreciated Paul. And just to clarify, it was not so much 'pseudo-Masonic Order' that got me upset, it was the part where Kuniggety said that it "isn't what Crowley envisioned." Cause that is simply not true.
Back to the topic, I do consider social involvement crucial. This may but does not have to take a form of joining an Order or even, why not, being a member of Lashtal. Many people seem to think that social involvement is not cool; they prefer to be loners, 'individuals.' But I do not think that such a sharp division is necessary. One can still be an individual and, let's say, an initiate of an Order. Things are not black-and-white and people are not two-dimensional cartoon characters. If I am allowed to be a bit foolish, I would say that Big Brother wants us to be weird and alone, but that we should instead join together and become a community.
Aleisterion - Jun 30, 2008 - 11:51 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
"If I am allowed to be a bit foolish, I would say that Big Brother wants us to be weird and alone, but that we should instead join together and become a community."
Which community exactly?
Aleisterion - Jul 01, 2008 - 12:01 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
I dunno about you, but I think that the best thing is to unify all Thelemic cultures, and to honor and celebrate each and every one -- be it Typhonian, Caliphate, Swiss, Brazilian, even the Choronzon Club tradition of Russell and Bertiaux...there are contributions across the board that are equally of merit as parts of the great legacy of Aleister Crowley, striving in their own way to perpetuate his Thelemic traditions.
Iskandar - Jul 01, 2008 - 12:29 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Aleisterion wrote: › Which community exactly?
I thought, since the context was the number of Thelemites, that there should be no misunderstanding. But let me spell it out: the community of Thelemites.
If however your question was provoked by a possibility that I had in mind a particular Order, the answer is no, that's not what I had in mind. I think that it makes perfect sense for people to join different groups, but that we all should cultivate a sense and means of belonging to a community. And while I think that it is natural that some people are drawn towards OTO, and some towards Grant, and some towards Chaos magick, and some towards A.'. A.'. and some blah blah blah, it would be grand if we could take these differences as our strength and not as seeds of discontent (I'm sure I'm mixing up my metaphors, but that comes from not being a native speaker of English).
kuniggety - Jul 01, 2008 - 01:07 AM
Post subject:
@Iskandar: I don't believe my "accusations" are baseless - it's just a matter of interpretation of what Crowley wrote on the order. I'd like to think that we can just agree to disagree 
I just didn't think this topic was the right place to talk about the Caliphate OTO and it's why I suggested taking it to PMs if you felt like venting so much.
And Paul is correct, I never meant to be insulting in the slightest, and meant pseudo in the terms of irregular, not in any derogatory way. I have zero against the Caliphate OTO - they keep a number of Crowley works in print and provide a good forum for fellow Thelemites to meet and work together. Heck, I might even find myself a member one day if I ever live in the vicinity of a lodge. My involvement with these forums doesn't have anything to do with a desire to insult anyone, nor present my ideas/thoughts as better than anyone elses'. I'm just another person working towards the Great Work
@jlcrow: I don't think it's so much of anybody ignoring it but not really having anything to say about it. I mean, the tens of thousands of people that don't belong to an order, they must be doing solitary work. Some have decided to make a presence on the web or try their hand on publishing some material, such as Paul of lashtal.com here and Aum418 who likes to cause a ruckus and is publishing his Journal of Thelemic Studies.
ianrons - Jul 01, 2008 - 04:29 AM
Post subject:
Note -- Vere Chappell, the TG of OTO, recently noted that the OTO have initiated 13,000+ individuals. Although the figures go back further, for realistic comparison I suppose this number ought to be regarded as covering a period of about 25 years since 1980.
Probably a high proportion of Thelemites have taken an OTO initiation at one time or another.
However, even if all of those OTO initiates thought they were Thelemites when they took initiation (which is *not* realistic), it doesn't mean they're Thelemites now; so the number of current Thelemites in that population of 13,000 is probably considerably less than 13,000.
30,000 doesn't seem like a bad guess nonetheless. In terms of world population, that makes roughly 1 Thelemite per 200,000. I suppose that probably qualifies as "few".
Astaroth - Jul 01, 2008 - 08:00 AM
Post subject: Is Thelema a belief system?
>>Is Thelema even a belief system? It could be argued that Thelema is more a system of action and experience. Thelema places more value on direct experience and action more so than taking at face value misplaced dogma. So even the idea of Thelema "being" a belief isnt a clear case. <<
Sure, but acttion presupposes a *belief* in the effectiveness of this action, otherwise you wouldn't do it. If Thelema is more a system of action and experience you would be presupposing that this is effective - unless you didn't want to be effective but wanted to be something else.
It is a belief system, because why would you bother with it otherwise. Believing in something doesn't necessarily mean believing dogma.
~Astaroth.
Astaroth - Jul 01, 2008 - 08:06 AM
Post subject: Thelemites in other countries
>>I don't want to make too much of this, but why only in the UK (and USA)? Surely there are some Thelemites in other countries, even in other English speaking countries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand...). In terms of the OTO, former Yugoslavia, before the wars in the 90s, had the largest community in Europe and second in numbers globally. Or we do not count?<<
Well from my point of view, it was the first thing that came into my head that was bigger than Australia, where I live. When I think about things like "The Occult Scene" I tend to think first of Australia, then the UK and USA. Only because I am really not familiar with what's going on in Europe or Asia. Not because I think they don't count. More because I didn't think to include them in what was a rather hasty email.
~Astaroth.
גמל - Jul 01, 2008 - 12:17 PM
Post subject:
93!
For Germany I would guess (I have to guess) about 2000 Thelemites (add or take a few hundred). Not more. Around 500 organized Thelemites in different groups and the rest solitary. These numbers are guessed due to a few years of experience in the thelemic sub-occulture and I think that it is pretty realistic.
93 93/93
גמל
Alex_Bennett - Jul 01, 2008 - 01:09 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Whilst I cannot hazard a guess at actual numbers of Thelemites in the UK (or elsewhere) from mere enquiries and actual ticket buying to The Thelemic Symposium which is open to all and has no restriction as to membership of any organisation. I would say that roughly 50% where reffered through magickal orders or pagan organisations of some kind and the rest where lone Thelemites or Pagans. This is a guess but it is made on the basis of emails and how they are written (e.g with formal 93/93s etc.. or not) plus mention of referals by the enquirers themselves.
The other way of making estimates is from Crowley booksales in the UK. If anyone had those figures in full we might be able to get a better picture.
I would give an educated guess that the overall majority of Thelemites are not afiliated to any order or organisation. The next major group would be Wiccans into Crowley by a long way (and they may prettend to be not into it to the Pagan Fed but very deffinately are in private). Only after that would we be dealing with the minority of order afiliated Thelemites some of which have more than one lodge but most are one working group or lodge.
Again I have no idea about actual numbers but when talking about this in general, most agree that in their experience, those into Thelema are distributed in the above way.
Alex
Love is the law, love under will.
Iskandar - Jul 01, 2008 - 04:05 PM
Post subject:
kuniggety wrote: › @Iskandar: I don't believe my "accusations" are baseless - it's just a matter of interpretation of what Crowley wrote on the order.
Dear Kuniggety, I find myself in an awkward situation: in order to respond to you I have to go off the topic, which will annoy Paul. You asked me to send you a private message but I did not want to do this, since you made what I consider public accusations - in three consecutive posts. These were 1) that [Caliphate] OTO is not what Crowley had in mind; the reason for which is 2) that they removed magical teachings, which amounts to 3) no magical tasks or tests required to move through the degrees. Now, none of this is true. Magical teachings were not removed and there were no magical tasks involved in the OTO during Crowley's involvement with it, just as [Caliphate] OTO is striving to actualize Crowley's vision of the Order. Now you say that we differ only in the matter of interpretation of "what Crowley wrote on the order." I would be very much interested in learning what exactly Crowley wrote on that subject and whether we may establish on the basis of those writings that [Caliphate] OTO is really not what Crowley had in mind.
Paul, this still matters within the context of present concerns. The claim was - in my interpretation, though I might be wrong - that we cannot take seriously the number of people in the OTO since they belong to an Order that has somehow renounced Crowley's vision. Similarly, I would equally consider that it was in fact Kuniggety who went off the topic with the remark: "Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema." Why these remarks? Either they have nothing to do with the topic, in which case it is Kuniggety that goes off the topic, or they do, in which case it makes sense that somebody reacts to these, in my opinion condescending and incorrect remarks. And if they were not such, then the person should either explain or substantiate his or her intentions. It does not help if Kunigggety says that he did not mean disrespect. Does it really work that way that one can call a person a liar - to give an example, not to claim that anybody said this - and then to say, I did not mean to be disrespectful when I said that?
To bring this back to the topic, I would consider person's involvement with any Thelemic Order as an indication of their involvement with Thelema.
lashtal - Jul 01, 2008 - 04:30 PM
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Iskandar wrote: › The claim was - in my interpretation, though I might be wrong - that we cannot take seriously the number of people in the OTO since they belong to an Order that has somehow renounced Crowley's vision.
That's definitely not how I interpreted Kuniggety's remark - and I urge you to check his posting history for further evidence that you might have misinterpreted his comments.
However, you've given your response and I'll leave them as they are.
Now, back to the matter in hand...
Quote: › I would consider person's involvement with any Thelemic Order as an indication of their involvement with Thelema.
We can all agree that such activity would indicate such involvement.
But, I ask again: does any of this matter?
As a consistently wise friend wrote in an email to me today: "This planet currently has slightly over six billion Thelemites - Most of them just aren't yet aware of the fact!"
And I don't mean to be in any way flippant when I say that I believe he's absolutely right.
kuniggety - Jul 01, 2008 - 08:40 PM
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lashtal wrote: ›
And I don't mean to be in any way flippant when I say that I believe he's absolutely right.
I agree with that sentiment too. I think human nature makes us Thelemites. The question that everyone person asks is what their purpose is here. Sounds awful Thelemic to me
ianrons - Jul 03, 2008 - 06:02 AM
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Quote: › As a consistently wise friend wrote in an email to me today: "This planet currently has slightly over six billion Thelemites - Most of them just aren't yet aware of the fact!"
Why stop at humans? Why not include birds, trees, rocks and students of Western Esotericism?
This is compassed in the original post:
Astaroth wrote: › I wonder if this would simply be a hopeless request because perhaps there would be different levels of definition of a 'Thelemite'. I suppose *self-definition* as a Thelemite will have to do, as one would need to count "influenced by Crowley/Thelema" in a whole 'nother category (undoubtedly big, as it would be).
We'll be here forever if we want to find a line between "Thelemite" and "profane"; however, can I remind folks that in Liber AL the "Thelemites" (="us") are pretty clearly not meant to include everyone, such as those "who sorroweth", who are "not of us"?
It seems from Liber AL that the Thelemites are those who are "chosen" (by Nuit). This is, however, ostensibly paradoxical to the spirit of Thelema, which I would argue is profoundly anti-authoritarian. It's hardly an issue, however, when the authority is of such an abstract conception as Nuit.
(Re: Thelema being anti-authoritarian. I would contend that AC's idea of "benevolent despotism" provides a model for least actual exercise of political authority. The authority of Nuit -- Nothing -- is I suppose the ultimate extension of this.)
We're definitely all Mormons though, along with some of our pseudonyms 
magispiegel - Jul 03, 2008 - 07:05 AM
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Hi Ian,
Chosen by who? By 'The Sons of Reflected Light'? 
(apparently, they were over 7 feet high and taught certain mysteries to those that were able to receive them i.e. those with a particular intelligence).
Really it is a matter of 'Who chooses who?'. A mystery indeed, which requires two parties either way to complete the circuit 
Does not the initiate need to go through some ordeals?, so that their minds can resonate with higher/deeper states of thought vibration? i.e. HGA. Which means the adept 'chooses' to become the pylon of transmission or contact (communion) with spiritual or non-spatial dimensions of experience. These experiences are always present i.e. AIWAZ, and they are dependent upon the visscitudes of the adept to receive them.
Best Wishes
Charles
ianrons - Jul 03, 2008 - 07:12 AM
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"chosen" by Nuit, of course. Hence phrases like "my chosen" in Liber AL.
I've edited the post to make it clear.
magispiegel - Jul 03, 2008 - 07:15 AM
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Nice one Ian!
gurugeorge - Jul 04, 2008 - 10:09 AM
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Tbh I'm a bit dubious about the whole notion of calling oneself a Thelemite at all. In Liber AL it seems to be something others call "us" (whoever "us" is).
Does it even make sense for someone doing their True Will to consider themselves part of a Thelemic "community"? That sort of talk is contemporary and sort of PC, but is it - well, Thelemic?
I certainly wouldn't call people Thelemites just because they are members of any OTO. The OTO idea is a social idea, the idea of a club like the Freemasons that's involved in worldly affairs but tries to "do the right thing" by the world, and has some philosophical depth. That's a great thing, but to me it's not quite Thelema. I'd be more comfortable calling members of the A:.A:. Thelemites, but only those of Adept grade and beyond, and only if they had a certain dedication to the cause, which not all do.
I don't know, I guess I reserve the term "Thelemite" for something pretty high up there in the scheme of things, and it wouldn't feel right for me to call myself that. It would be like me calling myself a "computer programmer" just because I know a bit of DOS.
Iskandar - Jul 04, 2008 - 04:24 PM
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Since I suggested the concept of community and would definitely count members of any Thelemic order as Thelemites, I would only like to clariify that to my mind these notions make sense within the context of three grades: the Man of earth, the Lover and the Hermit. And while what gurugeorge suggests makes sense with respect to Hermits, I still think that it makes sense to talk about community with respects to Men of Earth and in the light of the precept that 'the Law is for all.'
gurugeorge - Jul 04, 2008 - 05:48 PM
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Iskandar wrote: › Since I suggested the concept of community and would definitely count members of any Thelemic order as Thelemites, I would only like to clariify that to my mind these notions make sense within the context of three grades: the Man of earth, the Lover and the Hermit. And while what gurugeorge suggests makes sense with respect to Hermits, I still think that it makes sense to talk about community with respects to Men of Earth and in the light of the precept that 'the Law is for all.'
I see what you're saying, but I would put even "Man of Earth" as a pretty high grade (either Practicus, Philosophicus or Adeptus Minor Without, with Adeptus Minor Within, Adeptus Major and Adeptus Exemptus, or their equivalents in other systems, forming the Lover triad, and Hermits being beyond the Abyss). Maybe it's just me
Regardless, it's certainly an interesting question how many people are sort of "into Crowley" all over the world (that's about how loosely I'd put it really, accepting that some of them might be Thelemites strictly so-called according to my definition here), and a few tens of thousands sounds about right.
Iskandar - Jul 05, 2008 - 04:08 AM
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It is certainly an interesting question, just as are these various ways of defining what or who a Thelemite is or might be. It merits its own separate thread, "What constitutes a Thelemite?" although it is relevant here also, since in order to figure out how many Thelemites might there be, we need to define what do we mean by 'Thelemites.' I am somewhat reluctant about the notion of 6 billion Thelemites being out there (although it is interesting in a certain sense), since the identity is based on difference, and if all are Thelemites then in a sense nobody is. Trying to say that a conscious identification is crucial. Still, there are people who live their life in accordance with what we might call the law of Thelema, without necessarily being aware of it at all. I always considered person's acceptance of the Boook of the Law as a determining factor. But even that may be vague. What does it mean to accept AL? I would say, at the least to take it as an ispired text that might have some relevance to person's outlook on life. 'But there are means and means.'
gurugeorge - Jul 05, 2008 - 10:54 AM
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Iskandar wrote: › Still, there are people who live their life in accordance with what we might call the law of Thelema, without necessarily being aware of it at all.
Yes, and I'm sure we've all even met people who are quite "thelemic" in their lives, yet if you pointed it out to them they would recoil in horror with the association!
Oscillate - Jul 05, 2008 - 11:16 AM
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Is becoming a Thelemite a goal in itself or does it refer to someone who has embarked on the spiritual/magickal journey that Thelema entails? If it refers to the process, then surely the meaning of 'Thelemite' will shift and change as the individual progresses in their spiritual development?
XO