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Thelema - Doing as thou wilt...

nlwrykyy - Jul 02, 2008 - 02:56 AM
Post subject: Doing as thou wilt...

Hello everyone, I'm new here as you can surely see, but not very new to thelema - the ideology has been with me for a long time and I have been reading up on it, more or less through time, for a couple years, but only recently has it become more important. I was reading some of the posts on here, as well as some writings done by others... which leads me to this question:

Are you a thelemite because you want the freedom to wreak havoc and act in obscene ways, to leave no excuses for lude behaviour, to hurt others and then blame them for their own weaknesses? It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of barbarism that people are willing to go to in the name of Thelema, which is Do as thou wilt, but I believe Aleister Crowley thinks that his most successful students will have good wills in the first place. Let's remember, from Liber Al:

<i> ...Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby
there cometh hurt.
I,23: But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all! </i>

In other words, follow your will, but hurt others, and there will come hurt to you. I read one user in a post saying that one may always do one's will, but keep in mind that their are consequences or results for your actions. But he who sees himself as one with everything, who treats others as he wants himself to be treated, only he becomes the secret chief, who has the will to stomp down on others when necessary... even so, shouldn't we assume that such a chief only does this to those who have earned such punishment?

Thelema is very powerful, and it is the law of the few, not the many. One may hear, "Do what thou wilt," and think it's safe to go rob a store, but the most important task in life is to find one's true will. How many have done this? How many people are willing to accept that their true will may not even be that significant?

Thelema in the hands of the wise produces strong and wise leaders, the weak, barbarians, selfish brats, who become the pawn of the strong and wise. It would have been better that he didn't give any emphasis to thelema at all, and instead let the right people find it when they are ready. The truly untrained hears the sound of thelema and the reptilian-based ego perks up.

sonofthestar@Gmail.com - Jul 02, 2008 - 06:40 AM
Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

There is much discussion throughout the forum regarding what constitutes so seemingly simple a statement as "Do what thou wilt" as opposed to "Do what you want".
To define it in a simple way I would propose:

Do What You Want, is based upon the usually fleeting emotions common to the great majority of all men and women.
Anyone can achieve their "wants" for good or bad--for themselves, and others---each according to the merits, faults, and quirks of their unique and peculiar personage.

Do What Thou Wilt, could be likened unto the triple flame of the letter Shin:
meaning a union of Body-Mind-and Spirit---whence one's Godhood--so to say---is made fully manifest---and not just upon Malkuth!

Assuming one has discovered his or her true will, this does not necessarily mean that one is destined to achieve the culmination of their dedication to so great a work in any one lifetime; three is usually sufficient!
The first to master the physical trials and ordeals of so great an endeavor.
The second to recollect and rectify all prior mistakes--and using the mastery of the mind guided by the highest Light--Within,
attaining to that certain grade of adepthood best left to be experienced.
The third, to bring it all together--in an amazingly splendid way!
By this time, the Magus has remade his world--according to his magistry--waxing triumphant, enjoying the fruit of his labor.

Or, to give an even better example--which some might take issue with:
You can study medicine to become a doctor--just to make big bucks---and succeed;
or do the same thing to help heal the sick and ease the pain and suffering of your fellow humanity.
The one leads to fool's gold, remaining lead;
whilst the other is the true golden self already enlivened!

The fictional, but very true to life example of the story of Dr. Steven Strange springs to mind.

Love is the law, love under will.

Walterfive - Jul 02, 2008 - 03:46 PM
Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Well said, Sonofthestar!

Quote: › nlwrykyy asked:
Are you a thelemite because you want the freedom to wreak havoc and act in obscene ways, to leave no excuses for lude behaviour, to hurt others and then blame them for their own weaknesses? It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of barbarism that people are willing to go to in the name of Thelema, which is Do as thou wilt, but I believe Aleister Crowley thinks that his most successful students will have good wills in the first place.

With a big healthy dose of "In My Not So F*@#ing Humble Opinion" I offer the following:

The Law of Thelema is not 'Do as thou wilt,' it is "Do what thou wilt". A subtle difference, but to me, all the difference in the world.

I know very few Thelemites who "wreak havoc" for havoc's sake. You perhaps mistake Thelemites for Chaotes? Certainly our younger bretheren will 'pull the beards' of those that they percieve 'Establishment Suits,' it is ever the game of the rebellious youth, but our older and/or wiser bretheren will 'choose their garment as they will' and infiltrate, divide, and conquer from within.

Acting "in obscene ways" and "lude behavior" could cover just about any degree of so-called excess. The Taliban hurl those accusations against womyn in Afghanistan who refuse to wear a Burka in a public market. The Baptists hurl those accusations against womyn in Texas who refuse to wear a Bikini-top at a public beach. And those are just ordinary citizens. A Scarlet Woman is *supposed* to be 'loud and adulturous.' She is *supposed* to be 'shameless before all men.' I defend, as a Knight of Thelema, their Gods-given RIGHT to do their Will in this and in all other matters, as it is also their right to sheild themselves from the eyes of the profane in barbarous countries. I recall something too about despising "all chaste women." As long as it doesn't scare the horses or block traffic, I don't think the carnal behavior of others (as long as they are consenting adults) is much of my business unless it shows itself worthy of my applause.

Only an idiot who has never read "Duty" and fails to comprehend such Holy Books as Liber Librae would think that theft or robbery were in and of themselves justified actions under the Law of Thelema. "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights" according to Liber Oz. Likewise, Mankind as a Society has the right to take the freedom of those who would take the freedom of others through violence, threat, cohersion, or theft, including the freedom to own property and enjoy the fruits of one's labor, as well as the investment of one's fruits for further profit or gain. Those who thwart the rights of man under Liber Oz make abrograte their own claim to their rights under that worthy document.

One's True Will not significant? Ridiculous!

If it is one's True Will to be, for example, the best Mother or Father and example for one's children that one can be, how can that be insignificant to one's spouse and one's children? I honor my Brothers and Sisters who are such worthy parents, and who sacrifice and scrimp and save in order to sire responsible, productive citizens, and hopefully the leaders of tomorrow.

If it's one's True Will to die happy as Piano Player in a Texas Whorehouse, what does it matter that they will probably never play Carnegie Hall? I honor my Brothers and Sisters who hear the Terpsichorian Muse, and who play the songs as they Will, when, where, and with whom they Will and pray that if they sing their songs, they do so in key.

One's True Will may not be significant enough to get one in the Headlines, but one may still manage to be the advisor, mouthpiece, or aide-de-camp to those who are. I honor my Brothers and Sisters who practice Law, or serve as Public Officials and/or Government Civil Servants and/or Law Enforcement Officers.

One's True Will may not make one Commander-In-Chief of an Army, but one may still lead my troops into battle, if not as a General, then perhaps as a Lieutenant, or Sergeant, and I honor my Brothers and Sisters who serve in the Armed Forces.

"Every Man and Woman is a Star." There is no such thing as an 'insiginificant True Will.' Each of us may rise to be a Star in the Company of Stars, if we will only cast off the shackles of our society-imposed self-slavery. With this claim of Freedom comes a burden of responsibility and discipline that no prudent or wise WoMan fails to see. This responsibility of discipline is implicit in the statement "Love is the Law, Love under Will" in that the Law of Love is reined by the bit and bridle of Will and the Discipline of the Magician as described in The Book of Balance, Liber Librae.

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 02, 2008 - 06:41 PM
Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Some good points, but again "dressed" in the dreaded language of the old aeon mentality. There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards.

Walterfive - Jul 02, 2008 - 08:27 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Flagsofscarlet wrote: › There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards.

I agree, *when* this new aeon finally *does* shift up a gear, but I fear we'll be dealing with 'old aeon constructs' for the rest of *my* lifetime, and probably yours as well. And even then, most will still choose to be slaves, abeit, perhaps, to different masters. Few, I fear, initially, will actually be reaching for the Stars. Most will be content to watch the HD Digital Wide-Screen 5.1 Surround-Sound Telecast of the blast-off. Bread & Circuses, baby. Give it to 'em, and Slaves will STILL serve.

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 02, 2008 - 09:12 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Sooo right! Listen baby, I never thought it was going to change in my lifetime(maybe several), we just look towards the optimism of Thelema, so we are travelling in close orbits on this. Crowley was a genius, the book of the Law was "fed" through his mindset, those watching the HD digital 5.1 surround Telecast will be the ancestors, but there was?is maybe more: there will come a time, when the slaves will be no more, that's when Every Man and Women is a Star, of course they already are,(like you). Do what thou wilt: the age of pre-determined cultural conditioning ends, humans don't dictate behaviour or self to others based on difference. there will still be differences, but only in the sense of projection/reflection, interference of another's Will, will warrent defence. Regards.

magispiegel - Jul 03, 2008 - 10:37 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Flagsofscarlet wrote: There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards.

Walterfive wrote: I agree, *when* this new aeon finally *does* shift up a gear, but I fear we'll be dealing with 'old aeon constructs' for the rest of *my* lifetime, and probably yours as well. And even then, most will still choose to be slaves, abeit, perhaps, to different masters. Few, I fear, initially, will actually be reaching for the Stars.

Woe! Woe! Woe! I had some interesting thoughts while reading these comments...

Ultimately these comments can be classified as mere fantasies and projections of a perspective bias. It is a result of the fraility of the human condition, a limitation in the 'range' of consciousness. However, the truth of the matter could be much more complex than these idealistic 'castles in the sky' (mentioned above).

What I am trying to suggest here, is that nobody 'really' knows where the evolution of consciousness will take us. Just because a few people have devised a 'plan', does not necessarily mean that there will be an improvement collectively within the human experience. It is not a question of raising antinomian sentiments here, but the evolution of consciousness could very well turn out to follow a very opposite process i.e. war, oppression, destruction etc. Shocked

I think it is always healthy (for the evolution of consciousness that is, regardless of what magickal system one chooses to work with) that our views should emerge from multi-faceted perspectives. Why?, for is it not Crowley who mentions that this realm (below the abyss) is full of 'contradiction'? In this sense, and by the very nature of 'contradiction', some 'very interesting times' could manifest from such an evolved state of being. The term 'contradiction' is poignant, as the methods used by an evolved being could very well become 'draconian' in its application to proceed with the evolutionary process. So, in this respect, the very opposite could very well occur for humanity at large i.e. a condition, where the evolved state of being is 'beyond' the whimsical imaginings of a hopeful (mankinds projection) prophecy that relies upon some revelatory doctrine.

Best Wishes

Charles

Uni_Verse - Jul 03, 2008 - 01:48 PM
Post subject:

I have always seen it as, if one is doing their Will, there is no need to 'trample' upon the weak.

I liken being one with Hadit as being a train. When doing your Will, you are speeding down the track like said locomotive. Whether out of ignorance, lust, or pride; if a man (or woman) attempted to stand on the track and stop you, they would be trampled. Not due to a desire to harm them, simply that the momentum behind your action is so great and their resistance so feeble that they are washed away in the tide, drowned, and revived.

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 03, 2008 - 02:50 PM
Post subject:

I was trying to make a point about the way the book of the Law is percieved and understood by a large majority of Thelemites ( especially in America). The evolution of consciousness has always involved war, oppression, destruction with human beings, take a look at the history books, and have a good look around the world! Any of these comments can be classified as mere fantasies and projections of a perspective bias, and they usually are. Nobody has devised a 'plan', another mystical/magickal book is being interpreted in many different ways. Contradiction is unity above the abyss, but not below. Crowley didn't believe(judging from his writings) that humans would evolve into (what is currently understood to mean) a "utopian" society. I agree with the point magispiegel made, "nobody "really" knows where the evolution of consciousness will take us", but I think the book of the Law indicates when it might start! Humans haven't progressed that much, and if you don't agree, watch as the petrol runs out at the pumps, the empty shelves in the supermarkets, and you'll see very little in the way of "evolution of the human consciousness." And to imagine a future that is not based on the production/consumption formula is hardly a 'castle in the sky' fantasy.

Walterfive - Jul 03, 2008 - 02:57 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Charles, making a calculated guess based upon past data is hardly "mere fantasy." It is "The Method of Science." One can certainly chart the Aeon of Osiris/Age of Pisces from the point of the birth of the Teacher of Righteousness, the rebuilding of the Temple of Solomon, track the Essene/Therapeutae current in Simon Magus and Yeheshua of Nazareth, the destruction of the 2nd Temple, see the development of the Gnostic mushroom cult, the rise of Paulian Xianity to the Official Religion of Rome. From this I deduce that it took the Aeonic Christos about 450 years to get the 12th House of the Zodiac in order, and based upon that, and where we've come from and gotten to in the 1st century of the New Aeon, I postulate that it will take To Mega Therion, Babalon and Belarion *at least* another 100 years or more.

Certainly Flagsofscarlet and I are not the only Thelemites to come to these or similar conclusions. And as you can see, I'm not pulling numbers out of a hat. I've given this a great deal of thought.

If you're really beyond the so-called 'whimsical imaginings of a hopeful prophecy that relies on some revelatory doctorine' one might wonder why you're here in this topic at all, other than to troll? Many who have achieved at least K&C of the HGA, if not Gnosis, find such supposition of fantasy tiresome and insulting. I'll quote Lon Duquette on this-- 'it's true that the world is no bigger than the inside of your head, but most people have no idea how big that actually is!' The creation of one's reality-tunnel is hardly "whimsical imaginings," it's damned hard work!

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 03, 2008 - 03:11 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Hear!hear! Walterfive, you put it much better than me, and thanks for mentioning one of my favourite Thelemic writers! regards.

Walterfive - Jul 03, 2008 - 03:53 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

As I've mentioned elsewhere, Lon's a personal friend of mine and one of the biggest reasons I've never tried to write a book-- he does it much better than me, and makes most of the points that I would have wanted to on the subjects he addresses.

We don't agree on everything (such as his claim that there was no historical Solomon), but we have a grand time doing it. I have the greatest of respect for both the Archbishop and his charming wife & Priestess. Genuine and nice folks, not an ounce of pretence between the two of them. Meet them if ever you get the opportunity.

Lon is of the opinion that all the Goetic Daemons are merely aspects of one's subconcious mind, and that in contacting these Daemons through Goetic magick, one actually accesses these aspects. I'm rather of the same opionion about the HGA, in that it is the Super-Ego of Freud, but I'm a bit more mystic about it than that-- Freud's Super-Ego is only a manifestation in this lifetime and this human conciousness of a larger conciousness that spans the total of our incarnations-- it's almost as if the HGA is the dreamer, and we are the dreams...

magispiegel - Jul 03, 2008 - 09:49 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Thanks Walterfive and Flagsofscarlet for your comments.

Yes, these ideas I mentioned in my previous post are quite bizarre if not provocative. I even surprised myself when writing them this morning! Excuse me. It has been a strange morning. One of my patients who is a medium said that she saw a very large golden Horus in my auric field, shining behind me. I was shocked, as it has been a very long time since I have worked with such godforms. She mentioned that Horus was communicating through me a 'method of science', and this teaching is of a different nature to the contact I made 12 years ago.

Interesting comments though.
My very best wishes

Charles

P.S. Funny that. I also read about the Goetic Demons being subconscious aspects of the mind in a book written before Lon Milo was born... Very Happy

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 04, 2008 - 04:08 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Charles wrote: "P.S. Funny that. I also read about Goetic Demons being subconscious aspects of the mind in a book written before Lon Milo was born..." And your point being...

magispiegel - Jul 04, 2008 - 09:59 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Flagofscarlet,

Personally, I do not rate his books. Like water off a ducks arse. Even as a teenager I was frustrated with the content. But hey! at the age of 11, when you are bought up with books by Blavatsky, Besant, Crowley, Leadbeater and Levi on the family bookshelf, what does one expect?

To be honest, I have not read any of his material since 1995, hence I cannot comment on his later work.

Keep up THE GREAT WORK.

Charles

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 04, 2008 - 10:45 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Charles I had realised that, I just wanted you to write it! Blavastsky? Leadbeater? Besant? (ugh!), only the other two writers on your family bookshelf were worth it! The slaves shall serve (their ego-as usual!). Regards.

magispiegel - Jul 04, 2008 - 10:50 AM
Post subject:

Is a matter of taste Cool

Flagsofscarlet - Jul 04, 2008 - 11:08 AM
Post subject:

Exactly my point. Regards.

Walterfive - Jul 10, 2008 - 09:23 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

magispiegel wrote: › But hey! at the age of 11, when you are bought up with books by Blavatsky, Besant, Crowley, Leadbeater and Levi on the family bookshelf, what does one expect?

Besant? Leadbeater? Since age 11? No wonder you come acroos as so pompous and boring! Put a little R.A.W. into yer life, and a little anhalonium into your ovaltine, brother! It'll turn your head around!

It's more than a matter of taste, and Uncle Al points the truth of it. Neither Besant or Leadbeater deserved to stand in Blavatsky's shadow, let alone edit her words, disembowl her works, and assume the reins of her Great Work. We won't even *mention* their promotion of the Krishnamurti.
Leadbeater can't even get his Chakras right.

MichaelStaley - Jul 11, 2008 - 08:31 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Walterfive wrote: › No wonder you come acroos as so pompous and boring!

I'm sorry you're making personal remarks, Walter; there's rarely any need.

Best wishes,

Michael.

Walterfive - Jul 11, 2008 - 12:57 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Oops, my bad. Sorry 'bout that Magusspiegel. One forgets one's not on Usenet or Yahoo Groups any more.

Donald1955 - Jul 11, 2008 - 02:00 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Interesting discussion about the Goetia demons and the HGA. Specifically that the Goetia Demons are subconscious aspects of our self and that the HGA is the "Super Self". I'm not critical of that observation, but it sort of sweeps the whole transformative process into a "psychological" game.

I spent a few weeks this past year doing the opposite: I assumed they were TRUE entities which were external forces. Now granted at one level, we are all ONE, so any external form is just another aspect of the ONE in absolute reality. But then again there is relative reality! Now this too is just another psychological game.

I suppose the path of illuminism is to select the path from which you can receive the most surprises in order to learn the most about yourself.

Walterfive - Jul 11, 2008 - 02:26 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Well, I suppose you can reduce it to a "psychological game", or you can recognize that we're trying to define things that otherwise would escape or defy description and see that these terms are at *best* points of reference. At one level, we *are* all aspects of the One, viewing itself. But we're below the Veil of the Abyss. We're below the Veil of Paroketh. There are realitys in Malkuth that have to be dealt with, or you are going to end up operating at a loss.

What were the results of working with them under the presumption that they *were* true entities?
How did it differ from working with them under a different presumption, if at all? THOSE are the questions inquiring minds want to ask!

magispiegel - Jul 12, 2008 - 08:32 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Walterfive,

No worries on your insults. It is very rare that somebody usually responds to my comments anyway. I am usually ignored! So, they are quite funny actually.

I have met many interesting people through the Theosophical Society, and the work of those that have extrapolated upon the doctrine of Dyzan may sound boring to you. But, hey, remember this...Leadbeater and Besant's work is no way near as boring and redundant as Lon Milo's. Geez, he may be a good bloke etc. However, this does not reflect upon his work. There is no comparison, it is like eating at McDonalds or a 2 star michelin restaurant e.g. Tristan (In, Puerto Portals, Mallorca.)

I absolutely disagree with you regarding Annie Besant's work. Not only have I had the priviledge to hold her ashes, I think she has a wonderful manner of articulation in conveying the principles of the trans-himalayan tradition to the western mind. However, since you are most probably aligned with the C.O.T.O., you have no other choice but to admire Lon Milo's work?, naturally so. So, your reflexive rude comments ('parachuting in') are self explanatory considering recent events with the Trademark case.

The fact remains Walterfive, I am a solitary practitioner and can see the whole playing field. I must admit, I do have sensibilites and are drawn to works of quality. In my humble opinion, Lon Milo's work is like very expensive toilet paper. Look out for my book (The rhythm of the cells between - precipitations of phantasms) which is in process of publication. You might loosen your attachment(s) to people/organisation(s) that may want to control you? Who knows?

My very best wishes

Keep up the GREAT WORK

Charles

MichaelStaley - Jul 12, 2008 - 09:49 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Gentlemen, please!

Could we please try to stay generally on-topic, and in particular to avoid antagonisms and insults on these threads, difficult though it may be at times? Otherwise, the level of debate quickly degenerates to that of a children's playground and the point of the discussion is wholly submerged.

Let's keep things constructive, eh?

Best wishes,

Michael.

magispiegel - Jul 12, 2008 - 09:55 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Whoops! my apologies Michael for rambling boustrophedon IN RESPONSE to those cocky individuals across the pond ...

Keep up the GREAT WORK

Best Wishes

Charles

zardoz - Jul 12, 2008 - 07:25 PM
Post subject:

A children's playground is a good analogy though it does do a bit of a disservice to children but I'm sure they'll get over it. Laughing

I enjoy and get much benefit from Duquette's writings which just goes to show you that one person's gold is another person's ass wipe.

I am a solitary practitioner and can see the whole of the inside of my head except for most of it which is unknown.

Back to the initial subject of this thread:

Quote: › Are you a thelemite because you want the freedom to wreak havoc and act in obscene ways, to leave no excuses for lude behaviour, to hurt others and then blame them for their own weaknesses? It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of barbarism that people are willing to go to in the name of Thelema, which is Do as thou wilt

Someone once said that there are two general kinds of service, service to self and service to others. Perhaps 'Do what Thou wilt' occurs when service to self aligns with service to others giving service to Self? Just a thought...[/quote]

Camlion - Jul 12, 2008 - 07:28 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

93 all,

Walterfive wrote: ›

IMO, the installation of the message of Thelema will continue to be very gradual. Why? Because the conditions of Mastery and of Slavery are now entirely voluntary. There is the very important issue of degree of Mastery and of Slavery. There is a very broad spectrum between total Mastery and total Slavery. Many Thelemites will voluntarily cling to some degree of Slavery, letting go gradually as they become acclimated to Mastery. Many of the 'folk common' will gradually loosen their death-grip on Slavery as their abject terror begins to subside.

The only thing to be done to help this gradual process along, really, is to inform those voluntarily bound to Slavery of the alternative options available to them. Most remain unaware today. They teach their children to accept Slavery as they were taught by their own parents, and Slavery is perpetuated. Hence we have the Law to give, and each Individual must either accept or deny it to themselves.

Personally, I'm in it for the long haul, and it's a good ride. Smile

93 93/93
Camlion

zardoz - Jul 12, 2008 - 07:48 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

93 Camilion,

Perhaps self mastery begins with voluntary slavery to one's True Will?, if that's possible.

Camlion - Jul 12, 2008 - 08:13 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

zardoz wrote: › 93 Camilion,

Perhaps self mastery begins with voluntary slavery to one's True Will?, if that's possible.

Absolutely. In the plainest possible vernacular, for optimum self-fulfillment, one has no choice but to be one's true self and to behave accordingly. Anything other than this is to compromise the quality of the individual life-experience. This is, as you say, slavery in itself, slavery to True Will. This is why it is so silly that people misunderstand the Law as granting unlimited license with regard to behavior. In truth, it does so very conditionally.

zardoz - Jul 12, 2008 - 09:08 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Quote: › This is why it is so silly that people misunderstand the Law as granting unlimited license with regard to behavior. In truth, it does so very conditionally.

Yes. One of the conditions in Crowley's system - attainment of the knowledge and conversation of one's Holy Guardian Angel, whatever that is understood to be - it seems to occur as some kind of contact with a higher intelligence that has information and vision vastly beyond one's own. The path to HGA has a guiding quality to it. Learning and applying qabalah helps a lot.

Walterfive - Jul 14, 2008 - 07:09 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

magispiegel wrote: › Walterfive,

No worries on your insults. It is very rare that somebody usually responds to my comments anyway.

Hardly suprising. As they say down in Carolina, "Nobody likes wrestling with a pig, you just end up muddy, and it annoys the pig."

magispiegel wrote: › I have met many interesting people through the Theosophical Society, and the work of those that have extrapolated upon the doctrine of Dyzan may sound boring to you. But, hey, remember this...Leadbeater and Besant's work is no way near as boring and redundant as Lon Milo's.

An opinion, I see, that you find yourself quite alone in holding. Go for the gusto, baby.

magispiegel wrote: › Geez, he may be a good bloke etc. However, this does not reflect upon his work. There is no comparison, it is like eating at McDonalds or a 2 star michelin restaurant e.g. Tristan (In, Puerto Portals, Mallorca.)

Well, you let us know when you've written *one* book that approaches the concensus of value and worth that Lon's generally do in the international Magickal Community, m'kay? And please, *do* tell us who your publisher is going to be...

magispiegel wrote: › I absolutely disagree with you regarding Annie Besant's work. Not only have I had the priviledge to hold her ashes, I think she has a wonderful manner of articulation in conveying the principles of the trans-himalayan tradition to the western mind. However, since you are most probably aligned with the C.O.T.O., you have no other choice but to admire Lon Milo's work?, naturally so. So, your reflexive rude comments ('parachuting in') are self explanatory considering recent events with the Trademark case.

My old Drill-Sergeant used to say "Opinions are like assholes private! Nobody seems to think their own might stink!" Feel free to disagree. Smile

Seeing as nobody's even *mentioned* that Trademark case here, that thorn's obviously sticking in *your* side, sir. Furthermore, you *are* trolling. I'd sooner hold Mdm. Blavasky's cigar-ashes; Besant shouldn't have been allowed to sniff her farts, let lone edit her life's work.

magispiegel wrote: › The fact remains Walterfive, I am a solitary practitioner and can see the whole playing field.

The fact remains that you can't seem to see the forest for the trees.

magispiegel wrote: › I must admit, I do have sensibilites and are drawn to works of quality. In my humble opinion, Lon Milo's work is like very expensive toilet paper. Look out for my book (The rhythm of the cells between - precipitations of phantasms) which is in process of publication. You might loosen your attachment(s) to people/organisation(s) that may want to control you? Who knows?

Oh, I *anxiously* await your book, good sir. I'm sure we're *all* waiting with bated breath to see what kind of product you produce. Have a nice day.

Walterfive - Jul 14, 2008 - 07:55 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

zardoz wrote: ›

Quote: › This is why it is so silly that people misunderstand the Law as granting unlimited license with regard to behavior. In truth, it does so very conditionally.

Well said! It *does* have a "guiding" quality to it, doubly, in that one is "guided" to the process itself, and that once achieved, the conversation guides one to one's True Will.

magispiegel - Jul 14, 2008 - 10:52 PM
Post subject:

Walterfive,

Wonderful! It sure looks like I have aroused some interest from you in regard to my contribution to the occult community (this is not for those affiliated with the O.T.O. (TM) in the U.S. though). Tell your friends about it too. However, I do not think they can stomach references to true occultists that I respect e.g. Kenneth Grant while they eat it over their McDonalds (TM) for 25 cents.

Please enjoy reading your kindergarten Lon Milo books and comics Laughing

..you will get very far (NOT) with them Rolling Eyes

...real interesting reading Walter!...yep...real interesting! and very insightful indeed Laughing

Yes, it is a thorn in my side regarding the Trademark case actually. I think it is a VERY SAD OUTCOME for the O.T.O. ...A VERY SAD OUTCOME INDEED.

Nuff said.

Best Wishes

Charles

magispiegel - Jul 14, 2008 - 10:59 PM
Post subject:

Walterfive,

I forgot to say. It must start to stink now...

"THE FISH ROTS FROM THE HEAD DOWN".

Comedy
Keep up the GREAT WORK.
Charles

MichaelStaley - Jul 14, 2008 - 11:00 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Walter, these threads are generally a lot more constructive when we try to avoid the abrasive edge, the personal remarks, and the toilet humour. Conversely, the quality of discussions normally takes a downward turn with the introduction of these elements. It's why the site has Guidelines for participation in the threads.

Best wishes,

Michael.

kidneyhawk - Jul 15, 2008 - 12:44 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

please forgive the lack of caps here-a momentary technological problem...might i suggest that one needn't pit lon against kg. they are two authors whose work has been of tremendous importance to my own path. as much as it becomes tiresome to defend grant from shallow insults and slurs (which seem to me increasingly ignorant as time goes by) so also defending duquette from such dismissal. someone recently suggested that duquette's work has hidden "initiated" gems...i'd agree. and even his "kindergarten" material, if we wish to call it that, has been of tremendous value for providing very practical access points to thelemic magick. i think it is a very unique and important contribution to crowley studies and a more widespread implementation of his work. i can attest to this value personally-and as a ravenous reader of the Typhonian Trilogies, which i have found indispensible to my own endeavors in the Great Work.

93,

kyle

magispiegel - Jul 15, 2008 - 06:48 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Kyle,

What is the big deal? Anybody who knows Crowley will be familiar with the way he would 'run down' other authors e.g. A.E. Waite (Waistcoat).

So, in this respect, I am only following a tradition which the O.T.O. already has insitu.

Best Wishes

Charles

MichaelStaley - Jul 15, 2008 - 07:39 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

magispiegel wrote: › What is the big deal? Anybody who knows Crowley will be familiar with the way he would 'run down' other authors e.g. A.E. Waite (Waistcoat).

The "big deal", Charles, is that these forums are intended for constructive discussion, not for confrontation and bickering; read the forum guidelines, adherence to which is a requirement. The fact that Crowley slagged off authors such as Waite is neither here nor there; there's no compulsion to mimic A.C. in this or any other respect.

If you can't see how dispiriting the needling and squabbling between WalterFive and yourself is - two senior members of this community - then perhaps (as someone said of Mirrorman in similar circumstances) you need to reflect on the matter.

Best wishes,

Michael.

lashtal - Jul 15, 2008 - 11:02 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...

Magispiegel and Walterfive,

You both need to re-read your recent posts to understand how foolish they make you both appear. You appear to share the illusion that LAShTAL.COM exists for you to play out some strange game but it's actually done in full view of significant numbers of people that look to the site to provide something a little better than that.

This thread had reached its natural end so I am locking it. By locking it, I'm also ensuring that your remarks are preserved for future consideration.

I am disappointed by you both.