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Thelema - Spreading the Thelemic Word?
LittleAlickGrewUp - Jul 21, 2008 - 12:10 PM
Post subject: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
On friday I gave a talk to my local Pagan group about Thelema, filled in some of the facts about Crowley, Rabelais, Nietzche, Book of the Law etc
And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?
Yes I know Liber Al says
"10. Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
But surely more people should know about it? What are the Thelemic organisations doing to spread the word? Surely if every man and woman is a star we can't keep this to ourselves?
Am I wrong in trying to tell people about this? If so, please can a "secret chief" (or O.T.O. official) let me know? If not, give me a charter or something. 
Camlion - Jul 21, 2008 - 07:31 PM
Post subject: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
LittleAlickGrewUp wrote: › On friday I gave a talk to my local Pagan group about Thelema, filled in some of the facts about Crowley, Rabelais, Nietzche, Book of the Law etc
And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?
Yeah, it's certainly a shame when the man who is probably the father of neo-paganism isn't recognized by his own children, but that is often the way with bastard children, pardon the expression.
zain - Jul 21, 2008 - 08:52 PM
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Why do you want to evangelize and push Thelema on to people? Does that not sort of defeat the purpose of it? And is it not just repeating the mistakes of organised religion?
Camlion - Jul 21, 2008 - 10:44 PM
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zain wrote: › Why do you want to evangelize and push Thelema on to people? Does that not sort of defeat the purpose of it? And is it not just repeating the mistakes of organised religion?
For some Thelemites, Thelema is an organized religion. Further, for some Thelemites, with each person they meet, it is the Law to give, for the Law is for all. This presumably while arguing not and converting not, and so on.
LittleAlickGrewUp - Jul 21, 2008 - 10:44 PM
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I think there's a difference between letting people know Thelema exists and "pushing it on to people".
zain - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:01 AM
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To a lot of independent thelemites they dont see it has their place to explain or sell Thelema on to anyone, and to do so is just arrogance. It also raises the question of why would you want people to know about Thelema. If they are happy with what they have, leave them be. Its not the job of Thelema to change the world. Look at some of the organisations that want to, like Scientology and evangelical Christian groups and you see how messed up in the head they become.
the_real_simon_iff - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:26 AM
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Zain,
when someone is giving a talk on a specific theme, nobody is forced to attend and everybody's interested is invited I think. It is information. Of course a talk can also try to explain or sell something, but most people know that they are listening to the opinions of the lecturer.
I guess what LittleAlickGrewUp is wondering most about, is the fact, that once you started even a little "objective" research on AC and discover the huge influences he had on various great minds of his time and later on, on culture and esoterics and whatever, you sometimes wonder how anybody can never have heard of the man!
Well, that's what Lashtal.com is for (amongst other things) and I hope that a lot of Non-Thelemites visit this page.
Love=Law
Lutz
Te23 - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:30 AM
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Come on.
If these people were really interested in understanding paganism, or the connected traditions they followed, they would know who Crowley was and at least know a little about Thelema. If they don't know these things then the question is rather: Are they worth wasting time on?
When I first started getting into all this stuff I could barely read a book on paganism/magick without seeing Crowley's name. That wasn't that long ago, so I can only conclude these people don't read.
Cheers!
-Te23
DD - Jul 22, 2008 - 09:21 AM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?"
Wicca is only around 50 years old. Most pagans look back and see Gerald Gardner as the founding father, and don't see Crowley standing behind him in the shadows. From Gardner sprang the freedom and inspiration for most of the modern Pagan movement.
Crowley definately plays a major part in creating the modern witchcraft/wiccan/pagan movement. He is occasionaly mentioned in a few pagan books, but usually as a foot note and not the subject in a history chapter. Why? I would imagine that most modern pagan writers would not want a "Satanist" referenced in their books. Pagans usually distance themselves from the stigma of the Christian Satan, as this is what the Christians use as fodder against them.
"Are they worth wasting time on?"
That would be a matter of opinion. My answer is Yes, and I wouldn't consider my time being wasted.
I belong to an O.T.O. body that has been around since the early 1980's. For most of those years it has had a close relationship with the pagan community. Many of its members have come from this community. Many, in the Pagan community, have contributed to local O.T.O. events and help them be successful. This is not going to be the case with most O.T.O. bodies, but it has proved, at least in our area, to be a successful formula in bringing new people to the O.T.O. and Thelema.
LittleAlickGrewUp, please continue to educate people. Perhaps a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there in his chair, smoking his pipe, whispering to them the secrets of Magick and Thelema...
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the Law, Love under will.
zain - Jul 22, 2008 - 09:34 AM
Post subject:
DD why do people need to be "educated" on Thelema? I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this. No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt. Since no two interpretations of Thelema are the same, it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either. so i think your comment is irresponsible to say that its a positive thing "educate" people on Thelema.
the_real_simon_iff - Jul 22, 2008 - 10:45 AM
Post subject:
Zain,
although I am under the impression that the "individual point of view" on Thelema is one of your most important concerns, I think you are reading something into DD's post that isn't there. He clearly says "please continue to educate people." No educating on Thelema mentioned here, or is it? Educating people is an important task. And clearly in this case the word is used as "informing people". DD then goes on to say: "PERHAPS a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there..." What's wrong with that? This sounds wonderful, I think. Perhaps they find an interest in the old man, but perhaps they do not and perhaps they even consider paganism stained afterwards. Perhaps they sleep through the complete "lecture". I can see no danger of brainwashing people here. I would suggest that you don't let your obvious dislike of the OTO overshadow the impartiality. No belief system should be forced on anyone, you are right on that, and it might be even pretty fishy to "explain" Thelema, but as long as nobody is proposing this, you should not accuse anybody of doing that. Or so do I think....
Love=Law
Lutz
DD - Jul 22, 2008 - 10:50 AM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
zain
"No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt"
This tells a lot about you and your view on Thelema.
"it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either"
I, in fact was not implying that Thelema can be taught. This is simply your own beliefs being reflected back at you as you read other peoples words.
I merely encouraged LittleAlickGrewUp to continue talking about Crowley, Thelema, and the ties they have to Paganism. I don't believe that LittleAlickGrewUp is preaching what Thelema is or isn't (or is even qualified to do such).
I personally believe that we should be publicly talking about Crowley and Thelema. That we should be discussing the Book of the Law. That hearing other peoples ideas and interpretations will help people (including myself) find their own truths about Thelema. These beliefs (of mine) may or may not currently mesh with the Caliphate O.T.O.'s ideas on propagating Thelema.
I would agree with you that Thelema can't be taught, but to say no one has the right to talk about it is simply restrictive.
The last time I checked "No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt" was not listed on Liber OZ.
"The word of Sin is Restriction" AL 1-41. By declaring that "No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt" aren't you imposing your own restrictive view on Thelema? (and therefore forfeiting your own rights as listed in Liber OZ?)
"The Law is for all" AL 1-34 If we don't talk about Thelema and bring it to people's attention, do you think it would help Thelema? or would Thelema drift off in time, much like other ancient beliefs, and be forgotten?
And I just have to ask, What would Crowley do? 
Be silent? or talk for hours on Thelema?
Is it irresponsible to talk to people about Thelema? I don't think so.
Does zain have the right to think it is irresponsible to talk to people about Thelema? By all means Yes!
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the Law, Love under will.
bullshitdetector - Jul 22, 2008 - 12:05 PM
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I think one of the best ways to inform people of the existence of Thelema, and the legacy of Crowley and his works, is by pointing them in the direction of his books, which they can read, and make up their own minds about. I think this is especially important in regards to the book of the Law, which tends to read like a personal letter to whomever reads it. Other excellent books are Moonchild and Diary of a drug fiend. If anyone is 'put off' by the 'satanist' tag, they may be more willing to approach his fiction, which obviously still embodies Thelema.
Patriarch156 - Jul 22, 2008 - 02:26 PM
Post subject:
DD wrote: › And I just have to ask,
What would Crowley do? Be silent? or talk for hours on Thelema?
Crowley would probably do what he did last time it became a pressing matter for him, i.e. after attaining the grade Magus in the A.'.A.'.
"I have got my A.’.A.’. grade which [...] and that too, exactly at the time prophesied. [...] I must do my duty (vide Liber I) and that is to preach my Law.
Therefore this is the Word of Baphomet to all the members of the O.T.O. [THELEMA]. [...] One must take some very simple, very deep word which cuts at the heart of things. [...] I say [THELEMA].
Go on, therefore, preaching this and nothing else in season and out of season. You won’t have to wait long for results."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, october 4. 1915 e.v.
Which of course led to him among other things mounting a campaign where he wanted promulgationary texts such as the Message of the Master Therion to "be sent out by tens of thousands."
He even had some specific work for the O.T.O. to do under this new model which became the Blue Equinox Model:
"I hope you are keeping up open propoganda work with great vigour. I think it would be a good plan to get the Lodge to work in some way or other every night at purely missionary work until you have caught a big fish. Nobody should rest until 1352 is the property of the Order."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, september 1916 e.v.
The reason for this change in the function of the Order from being a "training ground for the A.'.A.'." which according him represented "the only thing worth doing" was his initiation which made him realize that "the O.T.O. has a perfectly definite function in connection with the New Aeon. At a time like the present, when individual liberty is threatened in a way to which history offers no parallel, a strong and vigorous order is required to guard humanity. The A.'.A.'. does this, it is true, but in a manner so beyond even your present conceptions, that I think it only fair to give even the most commonplace of men a chance to co-operate actually."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, 1916 e.v.
So whatever modern Thelemites thinks is proper and good, it is clear what A.C. wanted Thelemites in general to do (cf. Duty and Liber CCC where it is identified with our True Will) and the O.T.O. in particular to do.
Camlion - Jul 22, 2008 - 04:41 PM
Post subject:
93 zain,
zain wrote: › DD why do people need to be "educated" on Thelema? I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this. No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt. Since no two interpretations of Thelema are the same, it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either. so i think your comment is irresponsible to say that its a positive thing "educate" people on Thelema.
Firstly, and I say this as a non-OTO member, this bias against OTO is an ongoing distraction to these forums. OTO is not the subject of this thread. OTO is certainly not alone in seeing the value of sharing the message of Thelema with those who might benefit from it.
Secondly, I personally see the message of Thelema as potentially being the difference between liberty and slavery for the average individual and, that being the case, I wonder how you can justify denying this benefit to the world at large?
93 93/93
Camlion
zain - Jul 22, 2008 - 05:59 PM
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Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best. Patriach 156 represents an organsiation that sees no reason to move beyond the word and ideas of Crowleys interpretation of Thelema. Thats his perogative. But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and at that an interpretation of Crowleys Thelema ,has the be all and end all to Thelema in general. Thats not education. And it would be a one sided "education"
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves. If the will to learn is not there in the first place then the ideas behind Thelema (in all its different forms) will be wasted on them. And going out to evangelise and sell Thelema as if its a "cure" is on very shaky ground.
Erwin - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:01 PM
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zain wrote: › i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best....
If Thelema is as "subjective" as you seem to think it is, how can any view of it be "distorted"? Seems to me that you're suggesting that each and every "interpretation" of Thelema is valid, except for all the views that you personally disapprove of which you label "distorted". You can't have it both ways.
zain wrote: › But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema...
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves.
"Learn about Thelema...for themselves" from where, exactly? Any book, class, whatever on the subject, is going to be someone presenting an interpretation of Thelema. Unless you consider sitting down and asking the universe to teach you directly to be a sensible option - which, for the avoidance of doubt, it isn't - then anybody learning about Thelema - "for themselves" or otherwise - is going to have to do it by encountering other people's interpretations of it. If nobody "has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema" then nobody is going to learn about it, ever.
Erwin
Camlion - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:33 PM
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zain wrote: › Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best. Patriach 156 represents an organsiation that sees no reason to move beyond the word and ideas of Crowleys interpretation of Thelema. Thats his perogative. But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and at that an interpretation of Crowleys Thelema ,has the be all and end all to Thelema in general. Thats not education. And it would be a one sided "education"
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves. If the will to learn is not there in the first place then the ideas behind Thelema (in all its different forms) will be wasted on them. And going out to evangelise and sell Thelema as if its a "cure" is on very shaky ground.
Of the subjective nature of Thelema, considered as the Will of the individual, there is no doubt, obviously. But the message of Thelema, as expressed in Liber AL, is less subjective. There are a plethora of ideas that any reasonable person would identify as clearly contradicting the message of Thelema. There may be some conflict of interpretation but, generally speaking, the message of Thelema bids the individual to behave in accord with his or her innate nature and inclination. Ideas which are diametrically opposed this are easily ruled out of any interpretation of the message of Thelema.
There is a great danger in the silly notion that the message of Thelema can mean absolutely anything that one wishes it mean. If that were true, it would mean nothing at all. It does mean something definitive and of great importance.
That Patriach 156 is a member of a given Thelemic organization is not immediately relevant to me. Within the context of these forums, I relate to him as one Thelemite to another, and I would suggest that you do the same. This forum is not, to the best of my knowledge, a formal conference between Thelemic Orders. Each participant represents themselves.
General education on the message of Thelema is far from impossible. Reference to foundational documents, for example, submitted to the inquirer for their own individual consideration is perfectly acceptable. The existence of alternative interpretations is not to be regarded with dread, either. This is a natural development as new ideas are formulated. The individual will decide, and we must trust in his or her ability to do so.
I am inclined to agree with you, personally, that investigation of the message of Thelema is probably best accomplished by virtue of independent inclination and inquiry. However, there is a demand for the various formulations of Thelemic groups, as evidenced by their very existence. Where there is a demand there will be a supply. Just as there is a demand for organized religion based on the message of Thelema among some people, and a demand for freedom from organized religion among others. Neither of these tendencies is necessarily 'wrong.'
I believe that the message of Thelema is, indeed, a cure for many common ills today, so I must disagree with you on this point. I would suggest that if you do not feel that the promulgation of the Law of Thelema has any value, that you personally refrain from engaging in it. This is your right, but you do not have the right to prevent others from doing so if they Will.
and to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds.
Walterfive - Jul 22, 2008 - 07:57 PM
Post subject:
DD wrote: ›
I belong to an O.T.O. body that has been around since the early 1980's. For most of those years it has had a close relationship with the pagan community. Many of its members have come from this community. Many, in the Pagan community, have contributed to local O.T.O. events and help them be successful. This is not going to be the case with most O.T.O. bodies, but it has proved, at least in our area, to be a successful formula in bringing new people to the O.T.O. and Thelema.
LittleAlickGrewUp, please continue to educate people. Perhaps a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there in his chair, smoking his pipe, whispering to them the secrets of Magick and Thelema...
I can easily think of 50-60 people (over the last 2 decades) from the Pagan Communities of Austin, San Antonio and Houston here in Texas who have joined the O.T.O. because of my efforts and the efforts of other Brothers and Sisters in our local and state-wide communities because of our volunteering and service to those communities, and another 30 (at least) up in Dallas.
Here, we have been fortunate enough to have an "umbrella organization" with a 501 (c)(3) Tax-Exempt Status, the Texas Council of Magickal Arts, that has had a number of Thelemites and/or O.T.O. members serve as Board Members (and one as Director). It is a pan-magickal & neopagan organization that's been around for almost 30 years. I helped found that organization's Guardians (Site Security & Medical Staff) 18 years ago, (about the time that their weekend event attendance went from 150 people to 600 to 800) and proudly remain an Elder and Advisor and Chief Guardian Emeritus in that community to this day. Our current Co-Chief Guardian is a 1st Degree Brother, and a 12+ year member of the C.M.A. Our Assistant Director, (while not a Thelemite or O.T.O. member) is one of my wife's and mine's two or three dozen-odd magickal students and mentoring subjects, and we've known her since she was age 15. We have mutual respect and recognition as Priest & Priestess from dozens of Circles, Covens and Pagan or Asatru Magickal Traditions around the State.
We've paid our dues and served our communties for almost 2 decades now.
What you've got to remember is that a lot of people are coming to whatever they can find, Pagan, Magickal, Wiccan, Asatru, New Age... and that the hinterlands are still 20 years (or more) behind us in the word getting out and around. My wife ran a 501 (c)(3) Pagan/alternative spirituality Community Center in Dallas, Texas for a decade (it closed last year), we had all sorts of cross-pollenation between the O.T.O. body there and that Community (much to the dismay of the local anti-O.T.O. Covenant of the Goddess contingent); public Gnostic Masses conducted there twice a month, lectures by Lon Milo Duquette, the marriage of their founder and C.E.O. to an O.T.O. Rose Croix initiate... and we *still* had to argue and persuade (every week, it sometimes seemed) someone or other who was fully convinced that Aleister Crowley was a *Satanist*, and Witches don't *believe* in Satan! So what are these Crowleyian Satanists doing around here, pushing their Black Masses?
Absolutely, keep educating people. Stick to the facts, there's no need to proseltize. Curiosity will get the better of them, and they'll want to know about "what books should I read?" and then "what's this O.T.O. you belong to?" The reason that a lot of people don't know about Uncle Al is that they are just beginning their path, even though they may be 30, 40, even 50, they're just beginning their path, Magickally. Or they've been in the Broom Closet in their respective small-towns, and only know what they've been told by the few magickal/pagan people they trusted. And somewhere they were told the old lie, that Uncle Al was evil, a Satanist, an animal sacrificer, and were never told the truth: that the so-called "Father of modern-day Wicca", Gerald B. Gardner, was one of Crowley's students, appearantly "borrowed" a lot of Crowley's material for his "Book of Shadows" and particularly his "Charge Of The Goddess", and that the bulk of what he taught as "Wicca" apparently comes from Thelema, the Order of the Golden Dawn, and Freemasonry. A lot of the "old guard" Trads still hide these facts from their young dedicants. For them, the control of such knowlege is power-- they know better, but they lie to their students to keep them from fraternizing with us.
Camlion - Jul 22, 2008 - 08:16 PM
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I have had similar success with the 'new age' community in Southern California, once the initial impediments are overcome.
Walterfive - Jul 22, 2008 - 08:54 PM
Post subject:
zain wrote: › Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best. Patriach 156 represents an organsiation that sees no reason to move beyond the word and ideas of Crowleys interpretation of Thelema. Thats his perogative. But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and at that an interpretation of Crowleys Thelema ,has the be all and end all to Thelema in general. Thats not education. And it would be a one sided "education"
That's "'lentus papilla' laud cui cattus," compadre. You only *suppose* that they're presenting a "one-sided view" of Thelema. You don't know it for a fact.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that my Fraters and Sorors are probably presenting as balanced a view as they are able, and I'm basing that on the fact that they freely brought up the presentation of such views here as a topic for discussion, and therefore apparently feel that they have nothing to hide.
Education is a public service. And that's all they're trying to provide. "Man has the right to speak as he Will!" and "...it is the Law to give." So they *have* the right to perform such a public service.
To quote Liber Al Vel Legis on in reference to your arguments, "Enough of Because! Be he damned for a dog!" I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your so-called skepticism appears a ruse for wrong-minded suspicion. These people don't *presume* to speak for you. Patriarch156 or your personal misgivings regarding him don't enter into it, either. Furthermore, Littlealick doesn't even say he's talking about "The O.T.O.", *just* Thelema. Your assumptions are *quite* telling, sir.
Patriarch156 - Jul 22, 2008 - 09:27 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › Patriarch156 or your personal misgivings regarding him don't enter into it, either.
What is funny is that beyond the fact that I have always acted on my own behalf when contributing to these forums, is that all I did was answer a question about what Crowley in all likelyhood would have done and what his thoughts on the subject matter were. Apparently education is a very upsetting thing for some people.
Perhaps it was a good thing that I didn't quote the letters which covers a period stretching from this particular period of his life to the end of his life, where A.C. advices his students to limit the teaching and focus on technical stuff like ceremonial magick to the extremely small group that is double blessed with both the interest and aptitude for it, labelling it as a distraction from the real work, which according to him was to promulgate the Law of Thelema as a practical solution to such diverse problems as the labour problem, social unrest, crime and related subjects 
There is often a lot of appeal to Aleister Crowley or even the Law of Thelema as authorities that ought to settle a question among Thelemites, but in general I have found a lot of them to be ignorant about the former and extremely naive on the latter, as far as they believe that their own idiosyncratic takes on the Law can hold any relevance in settling any question for other Thelemites.
IAO131 - Jul 22, 2008 - 10:25 PM
Post subject:
93 Patriarch156,
Hi 
Quote: › Perhaps it was a good thing that I didn't quote the letters which covers a period stretching from this particular period of his life to the end of his life, where A.C. advices his students to limit the teaching and focus on technical stuff like ceremonial magick to the extremely small group that is double blessed with both the interest and aptitude for it, labelling it as a distraction from the real work, which according to him was to promulgate the Law of Thelema as a practical solution to such diverse problems as the labour problem, social unrest, crime and related subjects
Please do.
IAO131
Bill_T - Jul 23, 2008 - 12:06 AM
Post subject: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
LittleAlickGrewUp wrote: › On friday I gave a talk to my local Pagan group about Thelema, filled in some of the facts about Crowley, Rabelais, Nietzche, Book of the Law etc
And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?
I too have been shocked by the number of supposedly well-read pagans/occultists who haven't read or barely heard of Crowley. Why not? Maybe they haven't been encouraged, challenged, or inspired to examine THELEMA and Crowley by you yet?
Quote: ›
Am I wrong in trying to tell people about this? If so, please can a "secret chief" (or O.T.O. official) let me know? If not, give me a charter or something.
No, you're not wrong and you're not right. You *may* however be doing some part of your True Will. Or you may be wasting your time. I do know that there plenty of other ways to waste your time that have overwhelmingly more negative impacts on us all.
Charter or something? Be careful what you ask for.
LittleAlickGrewUp - Jul 23, 2008 - 11:39 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
bill T wrote:"Charter or something? Be careful what you ask for."
I'm serious! i want something to hang on my wall :O)
DD - Jul 23, 2008 - 12:17 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"I'm serious! i want something to hang on my wall :O)"
LittleAlickGrewUp hang Liber OZ on your wall. Its all the charter you will ever need. 
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the law, love under will.
zain - Jul 23, 2008 - 12:42 PM
Post subject:
Just as a little experiment i am going to take one of walterfive's posts and rephrase some minor words and use christian terms , but still keeping the context of his his argumment.
I give you Walterfive the Christian missionary:
i can easily think of 50-60 people (over the last 2 decades) from the Pagan Communities of Austin, San Antonio and Houston here in Texas who have joined the christian church because of my efforts and the efforts of other Christian Brothers and Sisters in our local and state-wide communities because of our volunteering and service to those communities, and another 30 (at least) up in Dallas.
Here, we have been fortunate enough to have an "umbrella organization" with a 501 (c)(3) Tax-Exempt Status, the Texas Council of Evangelical Christianity, that has had a number of Christians and/or Christian church. members serve as Board Members (and one as Director). It is a pan-christian & Evangelical organization that's been around for almost 30 years. I helped found that organization's Guardians (Site Security & Medical Staff) 18 years ago, (about the time that their weekend event attendance went from 150 people to 600 to 800) and proudly remain an Elder and Advisor and Chief Guardian Emeritus in that community to this day. Our current Co-Chief Guardian is a 1st Degree christian Brother, and a 12+ year member of the C.M.A. Our Assistant Director, (while not a Christian or church goer) is one of my wife's and mine's two or three dozen-odd bible study students and mentoring subjects, and we've known her since she was age 15. We have mutual respect and recognition as Christian clergy from dozens of Churches and Christian Traditions around the State.
We've paid our dues and served our communties for almost 2 decades now.
What you've got to remember is that a lot of people are coming to whatever they can find, Pagan, Magickal, Wiccan, Asatru, New Age... and that the hinterlands are still 20 years (or more) behind us in the Christian word getting out and around. My wife ran a 501 (c)(3) Evangeical christian missionary Community Center in Dallas, Texas for a decade (it closed last year), we had all sorts of cross-pollenation between the Church. body there and that Community (much to the dismay of the local anti-Christian contingent); public Christian Masses conducted there twice a month, lectures by a Christian minister, the marriage of their founder and C.E.O. to a baptised church member... and we *still* had to argue and persuade (every week, it sometimes seemed) someone or other who wasnt fully convinced that Jesus christ was a nice, and Witches don't *believe* in Christ! So what are these christian missionaries doing around here, pushing their christian prayer groups?
Absolutely, keep educating people. Stick to the facts, there's no need to proseltize. Curiosity will get the better of them, and they'll want to know about "what books should I read?" and then "what's this Chrisitian church. you belong to?" The reason that a lot of people don't know about Jesus Christ is that they are just beginning their path, even though they may be 30, 40, even 50, they're just beginning their path. Or they've been in the Broom Closet in their respective small-towns, and only know what they've been told by the few magickal/pagan people they trusted. And somewhere they were told the old lie, that Jesus Christ wasnt nice, and were never told the truth: that the so-called "Father of modern-day Catholicism, , was one of Jesus's students, appearantly "borrowed" a lot of jesus material for his Testament. A lot of the "old guard" Christians still hide these facts from their young dedicants. For them, the control of such knowlege is power-- they know better, but they lie to their students to keep them from fraternizing with us Christians End of altered quote
In the context of me only changing minor words in Walterfive's statement here i have shown that in principle he is no different from the christian missionaries who went over to Africa to destroy alternative ideas and beliefs and to sell and convert people to a foreign way of belief that was at odds with their own experience.
One of the things about being a Thelemite is accepting a person's good points AND their bad points. Accepting people for being themselves. Not seeing someone who needs to be "changed" or "cured" with the "panacea" that is supposedly Thelema. If the ideas of Thelema imply that allowing people to find their own way is better than bullying and brainwashing them like Christian missionaries, how come even now, some supposed self proclaimed Thelemites cant see that.
Erwin - Jul 23, 2008 - 01:05 PM
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zain wrote: › One of the things about being a Thelemite is accepting a person's good points AND their bad points.
Didn't you just suggest that nobody had a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and how they should be left to find out about it for themselves? And aren't you presenting an interpretation of Thelema yourself, right now?
zain wrote: › Accepting people for being themselves. Not seeing someone who needs to be "changed" or "cured" with the "panacea" that is supposedly Thelema. If the ideas of Thelema imply that allowing people to find their own way is better than bullying and brainwashing them like Christian missionaries,
There you go presenting another interpretation of Thelema.
zain wrote: › how come even now, some supposed self proclaimed Thelemites cant see that.
Probably for much the same reason that somebody who disdains the idea of people needing to be "changed" or "cured" manages to blind himself to the fact that that's exactly what he's trying to do when he tries to talk them out of their supposed "missionary" ways. Apparently people should be allowed to "find their own way" except when that way meets with your disapproval. Pots and kettles, anyone?
Erwin
Patriarch156 - Jul 23, 2008 - 01:19 PM
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zain wrote: › One of the things about being a Thelemite is accepting a person's good points AND their bad points. Accepting people for being themselves. Not seeing someone who needs to be "changed" or "cured" with the "panacea" that is supposedly Thelema. If the ideas of Thelema imply that allowing people to find their own way is better than bullying and brainwashing them like Christian missionaries, how come even now, some supposed self proclaimed Thelemites cant see that.
Yes isn't it terrible that other Thelemites, "self proclaimed" even, can't see and agree with your conclusions as to what constitutes Thelema. Let us all bow down and accept you as the true authority, especially when you attempt to engage in bully tactics by claiming that these people wants to bully or brainwash other people, or even "cure" or "change" them, despite noone having mentioned this.
Aggressive promulgation in order to establish the Law of Thelema is clearly an integral part of Thelema as formulated by Crowley in his post-Magus period, but if you think that involves a view concerned about curing people or brainwashing them you not only have a very ignorant view of the methods Crowley suggested and his principles, but also of how possible brainwashing is possible (I suggest you read up on Massimo Introvigne's criticism of this concept within the concept of the sociology of religion).
In the spirit of your own sweeping conclusions, I understand your words to simply mean that you oppose any sort of criticism or presentation of alternatives to other people. This is an example of exactly what I was talking about as regarding someone mistaking their own idiosyncratic take on Thelema as having some sort of authoriative measure in order to settle an argument for other Thelemites. But it only reveals your own ignorance.
By what token can you actually change, let alone "cure" people within the concept of Thelema. Their secret selves as discussed in Liber Aleph chapter 8, is protected from any wrong doing from the world. But at the same time the complexes he is born into must be straightened out, which is done by mong other things engaging opposing points of view.
Why do you presume that the person who received the Book of the Law declared in Duty, that every Thelemite's Duty to Mankind is to "[e]stablish the Law of Thelema as the sole basis of conduct." Indeed, within the same tract he declares "the establishment of the Law of Thelema as an essential element of [our] True Will, since, whatever the ultimate nature of that Will, the evident condition of putting it into execution is freedom from external interference." Moreover, as far as criticism of other people's particular points of views goes:
"To bring out saliently the differences between two points-of-view is useful to both in measuring the position of each in the whole. Combat stimulates the virile or creative energy; and, like love, of which it is one form, excites the mind to an orgasm which enables it to transcend its rational dullness."
So much for the passionate meeting of different ideas, but he also opens up for influencing other people, though here and in line with the ideas of Thelema it is more curtailed:
"Seek, if you so will, to enlighten another when need arises.
This may be done, always with the strict respect for the attitude of the good sportsman, when he is in distress through failure to understand himself clearly, especially when he specifically demands help; for his darkness may hinder one's perception of his perfection. (Yet also his darkness may serve as a warning, or excite one's interest.) It is also lawful when his ignorance has lead him to interfere with one's will. All interference is in any case dangerous, and demands the exercise of extreme skill and good judgement, fortified by experience. To influence another is to leave one's citadel unguarded; and the attempt commonly ends in losing one's own self-supremacy."
This along his discussions of the subject matter in the New Commentary and Liber Aleph will perhaps enlighten you as to in what way and how far it is lawfull to influence other people.
You may disagree with this of course, but there is no reason why we should accept your appeals to Thelema as authoriative over that of Crowley, particularly not when what you are doing is simply a muddled rhetorical attempt at bullying us into accepting your particular point of view by branding those who disagree with you as being into brainwashing people again in complete contradiction to not only to what those people have written on this board, but also to what modern psychology knows about the possibility of brainwashing.
Your appeals to authority becomes even more inane, considering that you don't seem to have a good grasp of the things within Thelema you are appealing specifically to. If you want your appeals to authority to have any meaning beyond the fact that we now realize that you clearly disaprove, to other Thelemites, you need to a. show which principle of the Law of Thelema it actually violates and in which way. This is something you have failed to do beyond simply demonstrating your misunderstanding of them. The result is that so far you have only demonstrated why you yourself disapprove of any such action, which is all very nice and important as per Duty section B, but funnily enough in deep opposition to your own take on the Law of Thelema. Your own appeals to authority reveals that you are engaging in exactly the same thing that you yourself disparage.
DD - Jul 23, 2008 - 01:35 PM
Post subject:
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
zain I was going to respond to your post, but I think Patriarch156 said everything I was going to say (and said it better then I would have)
Thelema is individualize, but the mountain it resides on has many pathways to reach it. Open your mind to the possibility that all pathways are good, and not tainted with authoriative motives. You might find that by communicating with other Thelemites, your own personal Truth and understanding of Thelema will grow, and probably change and continue to change, again and again.
Good luck on the mountain!
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the law, love under will.
zain - Jul 23, 2008 - 02:26 PM
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Patriarch156 you have sort of proved my point by your use of the term "aggressive promulgation". Is that not what Christian missionaries were doing in Africa/South America in a misguided atempt to "save their souls"? And why does it need to be aggressive? Theres no point having a go at me when, i raise a legitimate point over how misguided people, repeating the mistakes of the past, while you are quite content to follow the words of Crowley for justification and use those said words has a reason to "sell" & evangelise a specific interpretation of Crowley's Thelema. Patriarch156 would you like to explain the difference between someone in an organsiation aggressively promulgating Thelema , and a christian missionary or evangelical "converting" people to christ? Is there a difference?
I accept some of your points but i see this idea of selling/pushing Thelema on to people (or aggressive promulgation as you insist) as repeating the mistakes of the past and religions-traditions who thought that they were doing right but ended up making things much worse.
Patriarch156 - Jul 23, 2008 - 02:38 PM
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By aggressive I meant that it would be the chief point of Crowley's and by extension of that his plans for his "temporal Order"'s public relations after this. I.e. he wanted the Law, again in accordance with what he saw as the commands of the Secret Chiefs to him, to be declared to everyone. I did not mean it as in the sense of torturing people or threatening them if they did not accept the Law of Thelema. I suggest you reread Liber CCC where A.C. discusses his plans about promulgation, including how he solves the "convert not" command in AL.
zain wrote: › Theres no point having a go at me when, i raise a legitimate point over how misguided people, repeating the mistakes of the past, while you are quite content to follow the words of Crowley for justification and use those said words has a reason to "sell" & evangelise a specific interpretation of Crowley's Thelema.
You misunderstand me, I am having a go at your misunderstandings and appeals to authority when it can have no such authority over other Thelemites.
Quote: › I accept some of your points but i see this idea of selling/pushing Thelema on to people (or aggressive promulgation as you insist) as repeating the mistakes of the past and religions-traditions who thought that they were doing right but ended up making things much worse.
That is fine, but I don't understand why you want to bring an appeal to the Law of Thelema into it. Particularly when you don't give us anything but your own muddled take on it to settle the question.
I also want to note that in this thread as far as promulgation is concerned I have merely written what Crowley thought. Your issues is with the scribe of the Book of the Law, not me. While I do agree with Crowley, that is not what I have discussed in this thread. I have merely wanted to clarify what Crowley thought on the subject matter.
Camlion - Jul 23, 2008 - 03:27 PM
Post subject:
zain wrote: ›
In the context of me only changing minor words in Walterfive's statement here i have shown that in principle he is no different from the christian missionaries who went over to Africa to destroy alternative ideas and beliefs and to sell and convert people to a foreign way of belief that was at odds with their own experience.
One of the things about being a Thelemite is accepting a person's good points AND their bad points. Accepting people for being themselves. Not seeing someone who needs to be "changed" or "cured" with the "panacea" that is supposedly Thelema. If the ideas of Thelema imply that allowing people to find their own way is better than bullying and brainwashing them like Christian missionaries, how come even now, some supposed self proclaimed Thelemites cant see that.
Zain, you are missing the point quite clumsily.
The point is the difference between the message of Thelema and that of the Christian missionaries in your illustration. The message of Thelema bids us to be our true selves and to behave accordingly, in keeping with our natures. The message of the Christian missionaries is the antithesis of this, that we should be true to other than our true selves, our being 'sinners' by nature, and should act otherwise, in accordance with artificial guidelines set forth in unnatural dogma, thus delivering us from our 'sinful' nature.
The one, Thelemic, celebrates our true nature, the other, Christian, condemns it.
The fact that each party to your analogy happens to be delivering a message is not relevant. The messages themselves are what is important, and the differences in the messages could not be any greater or more obvious.
I find it ridiculous that you criticize the very practice of message delivery itself, on the grounds that the process has been abused in the past, without any consideration for the obvious differences in the messages in question.
Other than the general practice of message delivery, you present no valid analogy of Thelema to the Christian missionaries. "Accepting people for being themselves," as you put it, is exactly what is being advocated by the Law of Thelema.
Walterfive - Jul 23, 2008 - 03:59 PM
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zain wrote: › Just as a little experiment i am going to take one of walterfive's posts and rephrase some minor words and use christian terms , but still keeping the context of his his argumment.
You could have done it with Communism and painted me red, too. It still wouldn't have proved your point.
zain wrote: › I give you Walterfive the Christian missionary:
*snip*
In the context of me only changing minor words in Walterfive's statement here i have shown that in principle he is no different from the christian missionaries who went over to Africa to destroy alternative ideas and beliefs and to sell and convert people to a foreign way of belief that was at odds with their own experience.
Except I didn't go Africa to do it, and I'm not Christian, you mean? Or that the people I speak of are hardly of 'alternative ideas and beliefs', vis a vis, as members of the Pagan and/or Magickal Community they're actually of *complimentary* ideas and beliefs? Allow me speculate that the construction of logical syllogisms may not exactly be your 'Strong Suite.'
(Excuse me Moderator, but do I have to suffer this sort of Ad Hominem attack without any sort of aggressive or pointed defense?)
zain wrote: › One of the things about being a Thelemite is accepting a person's good points AND their bad points.
No, Zain, that's "one of the things" about being an enlightened and tolerant being. It transcends all religion and philosophy. You ought to try it some time.
zain wrote: › Accepting people for being themselves. Not seeing someone who needs to be "changed" or "cured" with the "panacea" that is supposedly Thelema. If the ideas of Thelema imply that allowing people to find their own way is better than bullying and brainwashing them like Christian missionaries, how come even now, some supposed self proclaimed Thelemites cant see that.
Oh, I'm a "supposed self-proclaimed Thelemite" now? "Bullying and brainwashing"? Zain, what *I* have done over the last 18 years in the great State of Texas is to help build a larger, more organized and cohesive magickal community wherein Thelemites are respected as equals, a situation that is need of remedy in many other parts of the United States and the World. In doing so I have set an example that others have found worthy of respect and emulation. I realize that things like recieving respect from others, or having them emulate what they percieve as your finer qualities *are* probably alien concepts to you, but that's your loss, in my opinion. Personally, I find them of value. And still, "it is the Law to give." I have planted the seeds, and I have watched them grow, and I enjoy the company of those who have found their way to "our Law" through the works I have achieved, and the example I have set. Children that I knew when they were pre-teens ask me to sponsor them for membership in the O.T.O. Others have known me as "Priest" for all of their young lives, and come to me for advice and opinions.
Tell me, Zain: what have *you* done to promote and promulgate "our Law, and the joy of the world"?
As Patriarch156 properly notes, your *real* issues are with the Scribe of the Holy Books of Thelema. I suggest you take them up with him.
lashtal - Jul 23, 2008 - 04:27 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › Excuse me Moderator, but do I have to suffer this sort of Ad Hominem attack without any sort of aggressive or pointed defense?
What sort of "aggressive defense" were you seeking from me? In relation to what "Ad Hominem" attack exactly?
zain - Jul 23, 2008 - 04:34 PM
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Walterfive i dont believe i have attacked you,. what i was attempting to do was show the similarities of a group that seeks to "promote" Thelema and similar practices of christian evangelical groups who engaged in promulgation of a similar nature. Again this comes back to whether aggressive promulgation or "spreading the word" is a positive tool to be used.
IAO131 - Jul 23, 2008 - 04:45 PM
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zain wrote: › Patriarch156 you have sort of proved my point by your use of the term "aggressive promulgation". Is that not what Christian missionaries were doing in Africa/South America in a misguided atempt to "save their souls"? And why does it need to be aggressive? Theres no point having a go at me when, i raise a legitimate point over how misguided people, repeating the mistakes of the past, while you are quite content to follow the words of Crowley for justification and use those said words has a reason to "sell" & evangelise a specific interpretation of Crowley's Thelema. Patriarch156 would you like to explain the difference between someone in an organsiation aggressively promulgating Thelema , and a christian missionary or evangelical "converting" people to christ? Is there a difference?
I accept some of your points but i see this idea of selling/pushing Thelema on to people (or aggressive promulgation as you insist) as repeating the mistakes of the past and religions-traditions who thought that they were doing right but ended up making things much worse.
You know, sometimes its best to admit you are wrong or at least stay quiet on the subject otherwise you just dig yourself in deeper, thinking you are doing right but ending up making things much worse.
IAO131
zain - Jul 23, 2008 - 04:49 PM
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Picking up on Patriarch156 's point of "authority". Yes he is quite right, that i dont have the authority to sell , promote, and "educate" on Thelema. But neither does Patriarch156. Or anyone for that matter, due to the subjective nature of Thelema and its various forms and interpretations. And i dont accept Crowley's word being used in "creative" ways to justify or push a particular agenda. In one sentence Crowley says "aggressively promulgate" Thelema. And in another breath we get "convert ye not". So using Crowley's sometimes contradictory writing doesnt help and can cause even more confusion. Again another reason why "spreading the word" is not helpful.
Patriarch156, can you explain in you own opinion what "aggressively promulgate" Thelema means in practical terms. And is it actually neccessary or needed at all in the 21st century?
Camlion - Jul 23, 2008 - 04:56 PM
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zain wrote: › what i was attempting to do was show the similarities of a group that seeks to "promote" Thelema and similar practices of christian evangelical groups who engaged in promulgation of a similar nature.
You have failed to show any such thing, as per my post above. A reply would be appreciated. Thanks.
Walterfive - Jul 23, 2008 - 05:02 PM
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lashtal wrote: ›
Walterfive wrote: › Excuse me Moderator, but do I have to suffer this sort of Ad Hominem attack without any sort of aggressive or pointed defense?
What sort of "aggressive defense" were you seeking from me? In relation to what "Ad Hominem" attack exactly?
Oh, I wasn't seeking any from *you*. What I was seeking was either permission to exchange in kind or at least acknowlegement of the attack, as you've had issue with those sort of exchanges elsewhere. Why I, or anyone else should suffer fools at all, let alone gladly, is more to the point.
Walterfive - Jul 23, 2008 - 05:13 PM
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zain wrote: › Walterfive i dont believe i have attacked you,. what i was attempting to do was show the similarities of a group that seeks to "promote" Thelema and similar practices of christian evangelical groups who engaged in promulgation of a similar nature.
And it has been categorically explained to you that your supposition was flawed from the inception. The practices are in no way similar, neither are we speaking of a "group", nor do the philosophies in question bear any similarities. This has been presented to you by Camlion, by Patriarch156, and by my own hand, yet our efforts have yet to breach the bastion of your stubborness and permit you to recognize the fallacies of your premisses have failed through fault of our own. You are wrong. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of elementary Formal Logic. It has been presented in a manner that any reasonable person would understand. Therefore, I can only conclude that you are not a reasonable person, and have no place in polite conversation or discussion--i.e. a Troll. 
Patriarch156 - Jul 23, 2008 - 06:40 PM
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zain wrote: › Picking up on Patriarch156 's point of "authority". Yes he is quite right, that i dont have the authority to sell , promote, and "educate" on Thelema.
When have I ever claimed that you don't have the authority to sell, promote and "educate" on Thelema? I believe my point was that by appealing to the authority of Thelema and only referencing your own idiosyncratic take on it you naively mistake your own authority for having any relevance for other Thelemites as far as settling this discussion goes. As I pointed out, if you want that to happen you have to a. show which principle of the Law it violates and b. how it violates it. So far all you have done is demonstrate your ignorance about the very principles you appealed to.
Quote: › But neither does Patriarch156. Or anyone for that matter, due to the subjective nature of Thelema and its various forms and interpretations.
Please do not conflate your own points with the points I was trying to make. I believe I was making the opposite point of what you were making as far as Crowley's Law of Thelema were concerned after his attainment of the grade of Magus.
[quote]And i dont accept Crowley's word being used in "creative" ways to justify or push a particular agenda. In one sentence Crowley says "aggressively promulgate" Thelema. And in another breath we get "convert ye not".[Quote]
Show me where I have creatively used Crowley's word to push a particular agenda. As I have pointed out my concern was historical truth not agenda. In my initial post I even pointed out how modern Thelemites might even disagree with this, something I reiterated in my reply to you and I was fine with that. My only point was that it is rather clear what Crowley thought about the subject and any amount of real creative quoting of the Book of the Law erroneously won't change that. If so you need to demonstrate how A.C. does not mean what he does in the letters I quoted or at least justify how A.C. interpreted the Book of the Law in opposition to that, when in fact as I noted he addresses the convert not quote in Liber CCC.
Quote: › So using Crowley's sometimes contradictory writing doesnt help and can cause even more confusion.
It only cause more confusion when people like you don't like being shown that your own take is not justified by reference to Aleister Crowley and because of this has to engage in various creative misrepresentations of his thoughts on the subject matter.
I suggest you familiarize yourself a bit with the subject matter, since the answer to your question is given in the quotes I gave and in Liber CCC which I already refered you to.
Quote: › Again another reason why "spreading the word" is not helpful.
Considering the erroneous notions you are spreading and even demanding that other Thelemites accept, I think spreading the word is healthy if it curtails petty tyrants such as you trying to hijack the agenda of the Law of Thelema for the rest of us.
lashtal - Jul 23, 2008 - 07:15 PM
Post subject:
Walterfive wrote: › Oh, I wasn't seeking any from *you*. What I was seeking was either permission to exchange in kind...
There's nothing in the Guidelines to mitigate against you providing a robust defence of your position, especially when attacked. Judging by the responses Zain has generated here, he/she hasn't exactly impressed, in any case!
Camlion - Jul 23, 2008 - 07:22 PM
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zain wrote: › Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema.
People with an irrational contempt for all things OTO are often the same people that incorrectly assume that the promulgation of the Law of Thelema is of interest only to the OTO. Hence, they identify the one with the other, and condemn the practice. In the absence of any rational evidence to the contrary, I can only assume that this is an example of that. A stupid waste of everyone's time, since the OTO is not the topic of this thread.
zain - Jul 23, 2008 - 08:08 PM
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Another way to approach this thread is to ask, is that in a 21st century society that allows people to learn , explore, and develop without obstruction , i put it that the need to "aggressively promulgate" Thelema is not needed. Even if this was the case, no organisation or person would have that "authority" ( historical or otherwise to do so). I put forward, that if any person wants to understand Thelema then only they can do so themself. In my own opinon, any group or person who thinks they can evangelise or "teach" Thelema to the world is misguided and borders on the mistakes made by evangelicals and missionaries who thought they were doing "good".
So going back to the orignal post of alick and his point of "spreading the word", in hindsight maybe he meant well, but that its flawed in its application.
I would still be curious to know what Patriarch156's opinion on what "aggressively promulgate" Thelema, is in a open 21st century society in practice and action.
Camlion - Jul 23, 2008 - 08:35 PM
Post subject:
zain wrote: › Another way to approach this thread is to ask, is that in a 21st century society that allows people to learn , explore, and develop without obstruction , i put it that the need to "aggressively promulgate" Thelema is not needed. Even if this was the case, no organisation or person would have that "authority" ( historical or otherwise to do so). I put forward, that if any person wants to understand Thelema then only they can do so themself. In my own opinon, any group or person who thinks they can evangelise or "teach" Thelema to the world is misguided and borders on the mistakes made by evangelicals and missionaries who thought they were doing "good".
So going back to the orignal post of alick and his point of "spreading the word", in hindsight maybe he meant well, but that its flawed in its application.
I would still be curious to know what Patriarch156's opinion on what "aggressively promulgate" Thelema, is in a open 21st century society in practice and action.
As Erwin wondered earlier, how are people to come into contact with Thelema initially?
Erwin - Jul 23, 2008 - 08:42 PM
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zain wrote: › I put forward, that if any person wants to understand Thelema then only they can do so themself. In my own opinon, any group or person who thinks they can evangelise or "teach" Thelema to the world is misguided
Whilst teachers can present information in various ways, they cannot simply transplant understanding from one head into another, so all this talk about "understanding Thelema for themselves" is a complete red herring, because all understanding ultimately has to be "done by oneself" for this reason. You appear to have this peculiar idea that if anybody so much as tells another person what they think Thelema is then that person will be forever barred from understanding it properly, but that they will be able to understand it if all the information on the subject in the world is withheld from them. It's an utterly bizarre and nonsensical notion.
Erwin
Camlion - Jul 23, 2008 - 09:24 PM
Post subject: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
In the face of zero rebuttal, I will concede two points, just to help poor zain out:
1. Too extensive an introduction to the message of Thelema runs the risk of bias and inaccuracy on the part of the presenter.
2. Progress toward full and complete understanding depends upon the individual's own degree of experience.
Now, zain, how is the initial contact with the subject to occur?
amadan-De - Jul 23, 2008 - 09:33 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
I am wondering; zain how did your initial contact with Thelema come about?
I'm trying to picture a scenario with no other person being involved at any point and I can't (AC aside, as the author of the texts).
zain - Jul 24, 2008 - 09:11 AM
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Well the internet we are using right now, serves that purpose. A person only needs to type in the word Thelema and a wealth of information is at their finger tips. to me thats as good a starting point as anything else. If people are seeking to better themselves on a inner level then they will go out of there way regardless to find and engage Thelemic material regardless of their circumstances. Finding and seeking the material is a lesson in it self.
DD - Jul 24, 2008 - 11:37 AM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
zain, Just a few questions:
How is reading other people's opinion on the internet different then actually talking to people and hearing their opinion about Thelema? I have seen a far greater perversion of information about Thelema on the internet then I ever encountered talking with fellow Thelemites.
Do you believe everything you read? How is reading someone elses interpretation of Thelema different then hearing someone's interpretation?
Going on your assumption that people talking about Thelema are somehow in the wrong, how do you justify the internet as better? Any idiot can create a website and provide (dis)information to the many. Wouldn't visiting someone else's website and reading their words also fall under the 'dreaded' action of 2nd person involvement in finding Thelema?
As I said before, there are many pathways up the mountain to Thelema. Why do you stop and try to dig holes in every other pathway and then proceed to dig holes in your own path? Just curious?
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the law, love under will.
LittleAlickGrewUp - Jul 24, 2008 - 11:50 AM
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Not sure whether I should start a seperate topic for this but what the hell....
I was thinking - why don't we set up a team whose mission would be to ensure that a copy of the Book of the Law can be found in the philosophy/religion section of every public library in Britain? I would be happy to donate my time, and even some limited funds to the project.
If we need to disguise the donation by mixing in other books when we donate them to the Libraries, we could always mix in a random assortment of science textbooks, Pratchett novels, Tolkien materials and copies of Dawkins' work.
DD - Jul 24, 2008 - 12:05 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
LittleAlickGrewUp why don't we set up a team whose mission would be to ensure that a copy of the Book of the Law can be found in the philosophy/religion section of every public library in Britain?
That is a great idea. I have actually seen this done on a local level, but it does require a continued effort. Crowley books, at least where I live, disappear off the shelves of the libraries, either by people of other religions stealing them or by people being greedy and wanting the book for themselves.
If you could find others willing to assist you, I think it would be a great way to promulgate Thelema. You could definately start out at a local level and see how it works out.
And I would agree that this forum has changed topics and now seems to be an endless loop centered around zain's comments. Perhaps the Mod could close this forum and you could open a new one, if you so chose?
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the law, love under will.
Camlion - Jul 24, 2008 - 05:02 PM
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zain wrote: › Well the internet we are using right now, serves that purpose. A person only needs to type in the word Thelema and a wealth of information is at their finger tips. to me thats as good a starting point as anything else. If people are seeking to better themselves on a inner level then they will go out of there way regardless to find and engage Thelemic material regardless of their circumstances. Finding and seeking the material is a lesson in it self.
Flagsofscarlet - Jul 25, 2008 - 11:50 AM
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Zain, I agree with you on your points, but your wasting your time , because this gang are only going to bully you until you agree with them. or because they like to feel superior(walterfive is the worst), you will be ridiculed. They are old aeon christians, frothing at the mouth, egos out of control, they will agree that their are 'many different paths to Thelema' but not the individual one. lodge=church. Littlealicgrewup (silly silly), most libraries in the uk are struggling to stay open, don't make their workload more difficult than it is! Seeing as your so enthusiastic (missionary zeal), donate copies of the Book of The Law to hotels, they can put them in the rooms, next to the christian bibles!
Flagsofscarlet - Jul 25, 2008 - 12:58 PM
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A favourite quote from years ago sums it up: " The circle of psychic athletes that Crowley once envisioned is now dominated by religious cranks who have found the messiah "and behold! he is a dead Englishman who shaveth his head!".
Walterfive - Jul 25, 2008 - 04:01 PM
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Flagsofscarlet wrote: › Zain, I agree with you on your points, but your wasting your time , because this gang are only going to bully you until you agree with them. or because they like to feel superior(walterfive is the worst), you will be ridiculed. They are old aeon christians, frothing at the mouth, egos out of control, they will agree that their are 'many different paths to Thelema' but not the individual one. lodge=church.
Why *thank* you, Flagsofscarlet, that's high praise that you have to go so histronic as to claim we're "frothing at the mouth." The Lodge, however, is quite separate from the Church. As you don't appearantly belong to either, your suppositions are purest speculation. I am a Priest in the Ecclesia Catholicae Gnostica. I have an line of succesion that I can trace with confidence with a Bishop who enjoys multiple lines. I am also a Knight in the Ordo Templi Orientis, and have been raised to my Degree in the Rites and Rituals penned by Baphomet. I don't mention these titles to try and *impress* you Flagsofscarlet, (your field of vision is seemingly far too narrow to have your mind open enough to recognize the work or accomplishments of a self-proclaimed opponent), I present them to show the errors of your preposition--The Lodge does not equate to the Church, and neither affiliation has anything to do with my promulgation of the Law of Thelema.
I promote the Law of Thelema among my Pagan and Magickal bretheren because I feel that it is superlative, and the crowning essence of the New Aeon. That it provides answers that other traditions lack, and "certainty, not faith, in this life and the next." Do you not agree?
I don't "like to feel superior." I have no need. I'm a former soldier. A dog-face. I know my Will, and I act upon it, and I achieve my goals. Period. Sure, I'm proud of what I have accomplished, but Pride is *not* a "deadly sin" in Thelema. I *do* try to hold other people to the level of logic and intellect that I have come to expect from my Brothers and Sisters, but that level is usually displayed by the majority of the participants in this Forum. 'Think or Thwim,' baby. That you feel 'bullied' or threatened, and resort to name-calling and hyperbolic ridicule instead of intelligent criticism says much more about you than it does about me.
This thread is about spreading the Thelemic word. People (like myself) who have talked about their actually doing so get branded as "Christians" by armchair (and computer-screen) Thelemites who have appearantly done little if anything to promulgate the Law of Thelema in their own lives, let alone the lives of others, and who can't even form a logical premiss.
Frankly, I'm laughing my ass off. *We* are persuading people to our way of thought, "our Law and the joy of the world", as it says in Liber OZ, and that apparantly isn't according to *your* way of thought. As I told Zain, "'lentus papilla' laud cui cattus." In the Army we were told "Lead, follow, or get the Hell out of the way." I've made *my* choice. You should too.
bullshitdetector - Jul 25, 2008 - 04:37 PM
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I never called you any names, but I could think of one that springs to mind....Well, at least i've given you more space to vent your enormous ego. Sweet.
Camlion - Jul 25, 2008 - 04:43 PM
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Flagsofscarlet wrote: › A favourite quote from years ago sums it up: " The circle of psychic athletes that Crowley once envisioned is now dominated by religious cranks who have found the messiah "and behold! he is a dead Englishman who shaveth his head!".
A very offensive generalization, Flagsofscarlet. I myself worship no man and no god but my own.
I do wonder, however, exactly to what extent you feel that Crowley should be excluded from the modern perception of Thelema? Would it be totally, or just to a certain degree, or what exactly?
zain - Jul 25, 2008 - 06:04 PM
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Walterfive if there is anyone you should be taking issue with then it is me, for my initial post making comparisons between evangelicals and people pushing their issues (which has got nothing to do with Thelema) on to other people.
Just as a little experiment i am going to take your post to Flagsofscarlett and change some minor words "whilst keeping the context"
I give you Walterfive the trophy seeker:
Why *thank* you, Flagsofscarlet, that's high praise that you have to go so histronic as to claim we're "frothing at the mouth." The Lodge, however, is quite separate from the Church. As you don't appearantly belong to either and dont have their shiny trophies, your suppositions are purest speculation. I have a trophy of being labelled a Priest in the Ecclesia Catholicae Gnostica. I have an line of succesion that I can trace with confidence with a Bishop who enjoys multiple lines. I am also have the trophy of being a Knight in the Ordo Templi Orientis, and have the trophies of Degree in the Rites and Rituals penned by Baphomet. I mention these trophies to *impress* you Flagsofscarlet, (your field of vision is seemingly far too narrow to have your mind open enough to recognize the work or accomplishments of a self-proclaimed opponent who has more trophies than you ever will), I present them to show the errors of your preposition--The Lodge does not equate to the Church, and neither affiliation has anything to do with my promulgation of the Law of Thelema and my trophies.
I sell & evangelise the Law of Thelema among my Pagan and Magickal bretheren because I feel that it is superlative, and the crowning essence of the New Aeon. That it provides answers that other traditions lack, and "certainty, not faith, in this life and the next." Do you not agree?
I don't "like to feel superior." I have no need. I'm a former soldier. A dog-face. I know my Will because i have the trophies to prove it, and I act upon it, and I achieve my goals for more trophies. Period. Sure, I'm proud of what I have accomplished, but Pride is *not* a "deadly sin" in Thelema. I *do* try to hold/control other people to the level of logic and intellect that i demand from my Brothers and Sisters, but that level is usually displayed by the majority of the participants in this Forum. 'Think or Thwim,' baby. That you feel 'bullied' or threatened, and resort to name-calling and hyperbolic ridicule instead of intelligent criticism says much more about you than it does about me.
This thread is about spreading the Thelemic word. People (like myself) who have talked about their actually doing so get branded as "Christians" by armchair (and computer-screen) Thelemites who have appearantly done little if anything to promulgate the Law of Thelema and get trophies in their own lives, let alone the lives of others, and who can't even form a logical premiss.
Frankly, I'm laughing my ass off. *We* are persuading people to our way of thought, "our Law and the joy of the world", as it says in Liber OZ, and that apparantly isn't according to *your* way of thought. As I told Zain, "'lentus papilla' laud cui cattus." In the Army we were told "Lead, follow, or get the Hell out of the way." I've made *my* choice. You should too. End altered quote
The purpose of me doing this is to show that your more concerned with your own standing and trying to look "respectable". Your posts are incredibly egocentric and and seem to focuis on what you do and what your accomplishemts are. To me this seems to be less about Thelema and more about you pushing yourself on to people. This goes back to the point i was making about people who seek "trophies" has some kind of justifcation for their actions. I also take issue with you having to whore your degrees and supposed accomplishments on to other Thelemites has if it makes you superior. In Thelema when a person goes to the trouble to pick up a Thelemic book under their own will and seek to decipher it, their view is just (if not more) relevant than someone parading their arrogance, and trophies. Thelemites are equal with each other, and its sad that you dont see that because of you egocentric take on things.
And why do people need persuading about Thelema? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt. If people are happy with what they have why do they need to be persuaded? Again it comes back to the parallel with control freaks in organised religions who seek to push their own take on whats right and wrong. and from what you have posted you seem to be very similar in this context. If you are from Texas then you must have seen this done by religious evangelical groups selling beliefs to control people. So it makes me sad that you seem to involved in the same type of technique of "persuading".
daimonos - Jul 25, 2008 - 06:29 PM
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@zain: <i>And why do people need persuading about Thelema? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt. </i>
Along with 'convert not', and 'few and secret', there is equally, 'the law is for all' and 'it is the law to give.' You seem unable to grasp that walterfive, patriarch and others' wills is indeed to spread the law. You say, 'Leave them be. Do what thou wilt' when it's exactly their wills <i>not</i> to 'leave them be.' You don't wish to spread the law? That's fine. They do? That's got to be fine as well.
zain - Jul 25, 2008 - 07:50 PM
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daimonos i am assuming you will be familar with the book of the law. so can you explain the contradiction of these two quotes and compare them to the evangelical zeal of "aggressive promulgation":
"The study of the book is forbidden. It is wise to destroy this copy after the first reading"
Those who discuss the contents of this book are to be shuned by all, as centres of pestilence"
This is to show that at the best of times Crowley contradicted himself. In that sense i cant see how "spreading the word" or the aggressive promulgation of Thelema can even be coherent. Daimonos do you think you would be able to "spread the word" of Thlelema? And if so how? and how would you know if your understanding of Thelema in its various forms was any more coherent than anyone else's? There is no authority in this. And anyone who claims so will be treated with suspicion by their follow Thelemites. See the problem here?
Camlion - Jul 25, 2008 - 07:51 PM
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zain wrote: › In Thelema when a person goes to the trouble to pick up a Thelemic book under their own will and seek to decipher it.
Zain,
Once again, who publishes the Thelemic book and why? Because they consider it of some potential value to others? Is this publication not "spreading the Thelemic word?" Do you know what sort of effort goes into properly publishing a Thelemic book? Who (hopefully) acquires permission and then makes such a book available on the Internet, and why? What of people who refer to or discuss the book on the Iinternt? What if one person finds such a book, reads it, and recommends it to another person? Is all of this not "spreading the Thelemic word?"
Your conflict with Walter, (who may indeed have misspoken in the heat of the moment and given you an opportunity to divert from the topic), is indicative of the prevailing undercurrent of hostility among and between Thelemites. The "us against them" paradigm that would be of greater value to Thelema in general if directed toward some threat other than fellow Thelemites.
It is perfectly natural that some Thelemites organize themselves into groups while others refrain from doing so. It is also perfectly natural that some Thelemites discuss Thelema openly while others refrain from doing so. This is determined by the natural inclinations (Will) of the individuals involved. Hostility between those who do and those who don't is ridiculous and is counterproductive to Thelema in general.
Both time and energy are limited commodities among us, and their expenditure should follow some sort of judicious consideration. There are probably battles to be fought in a world where we represent such a minority, but these battles should be more carefully chosen.
Patriarch156 - Jul 25, 2008 - 08:29 PM
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zain wrote: › This is to show that at the best of times Crowley contradicted himself. In that sense i cant see how "spreading the word" or the aggressive promulgation of Thelema can even be coherent.
This is typical quoting out of context. Did you know that the same period that Crowley received the Tunis comment was also the same period that he particularly ramped up the Promulgation campaign and demanding more of the same from his acolytes. Crowley's interpretation of the Tunis comment is clearly not in line with yours, as he remained an unrepentant promulgator and demanding the same of his acolytes until his death.
Me I don't mind that you don't want to promulgate the law of thelema, hell I don't mind that you think it is a mistake. But it is clear that as long as you do not engage in extremely creative and selective quoting out of context, that Crowley disagreed with you.
Patriarch156 - Jul 25, 2008 - 08:35 PM
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daimonos wrote: › walterfive, patriarch and others' wills is indeed to spread the law.
I would like to point out that though I do agree with A.C., my contribution in this thread hasn't been to whether or not it is right to promulgate the Law of Thelema, only a concern of historical accuracy as far as what A.C. wanted us to do.
I don't think it is necesarily a bad thing to disagree with A.C., nor do I think it is a bad think of Zain and others to tell us that they think what we are doing is a mistake. I think that is perfectly legitimate in light of section B of Duty.
I only mind when he appeals to the Law of Thelema or Crowley, when in fact what he actually is doing is demanding that his own idiosyncratic and some might even say misinformed take on the same should hold any relevance for other Thelemites as far as settling this discussion goes.
Camlion - Jul 25, 2008 - 08:46 PM
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zain wrote: › This is to show that at the best of times Crowley contradicted himself.
This conclusion is likely without benefit of scholarship. Actually, if we take into account with each example when Crowley was writing, to whom he was writing and from what perspective, many of the apparent contradictions are explained. Crowley's views and understanding evolved over time, his intended audience varied considerably from one example to another, and he was required by circumstance to shift gears with regard to the multiple perspectives available to him, as necessitated by the nature of his Work.
So, please don't blame your own confusion on Crowley, Zain. It seems from what you say that you may be accessing your bookshelves blindfolded and pulling out Crowley quotes at random.
DD - Jul 25, 2008 - 10:43 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
zain If you bang your head against a brick wall long enough, do the colors of the pot and the kettle change so that they look different?
"Thelemites are equal with each other, and its sad that you dont see that because of you egocentric take on things."
As you have said, Thelemites are equal, yet you have put yourself above other Thelemites in a place of judgement as to whether or not people should talk or 'educate' others on Thelema.
"And why do people need persuading about Thelema? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt. If people are happy with what they have why do they need to be persuaded? Again it comes back to the parallel with control freaks in organised religions who seek to push their own take on whats right and wrong. and from what you have posted you seem to be very similar in this context."
I am confused? Here you seem to making a point that the control freaks are pushing their ideas on others. Are you describing yourself again?
"and how would you know if your understanding of Thelema in its various forms was any more coherent than anyone else's?"
Take a look at this question zain. You want other poeple to ask this of themselves, I would like you to ask this of yourself.
"There is no authority in this. And anyone who claims so will be treated with suspicion by their follow Thelemites. See the problem here?"
Aren't you taking an authoritive position in claiming that no one should teach Thelema? Are you now being treated with suspicion?
zain almost every argument that you make against other people's view is an argument against your own.
I am guessing that most people on this forum accept that you have your own view on Thelema and while people have disagreed with your view, they have not said that it was invalid. (just that some of the points you make are less then valid).
My question is, can you accept that other peoples views are different then yours and that it is O.K.? Isn't that what Thelema is about, that "every man and woman is a star" and follow their own course?
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the law, love under will.
Erwin - Jul 25, 2008 - 11:19 PM
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zain wrote: › And why do people need persuading about Thelema? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt.
Trying to persuade people - by attempting to push your "views" on Thelema onto them - not to persuade people about Thelema; you really couldn't make this kind of stuff up.
You are one deeply conflicted and confused fellow. It's pretty clear that my dog has a better understanding of Thelema than you do, but because you cling to this ridiculous nonsense about everyone's views being equally "valid" and "relevant" in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary it's unlikely you're ever going to see what everyone is pointing out to you.
Erwin
Camlion - Jul 26, 2008 - 12:49 AM
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Erwin wrote: ›