lashtal.com
Magick - Thelema, the shamanic practice
piscean93 - Jul 27, 2008 - 02:24 AM
Post subject: Thelema, the shamanic practice
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law,
93,
I have an insight to share to begin a little discussed view of the law of Thelema. If you consider the root of Thelema is the Greek Love/Will, then please consider this: Extrapolating this out, as long as there has been a human on the planet doing what they believe their true will to be, there has been Thelema. This can be traced back into the mists of time, to the most ancient of days. Also keep in mind that as the race of humans has evolved, the evolution of what "true will" means has evolved as well. Thus, true will in a modern light is much different than true will in an ancient cultures light. When pondering this, it occurred to me that Thelema is one of the oldest, if not the oldest shamanic tradition.
Thoughts?
93,
Love is the law, love under Will
Erwin - Jul 27, 2008 - 05:08 PM
Post subject: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
piscean93 wrote: › I have an insight to share to begin a little discussed view of the law of Thelema. If you consider the root of Thelema is the Greek Love/Will, then please consider this: Extrapolating this out, as long as there has been a human on the planet doing what they believe their true will to be, there has been Thelema. This can be traced back into the mists of time, to the most ancient of days. Also keep in mind that as the race of humans has evolved, the evolution of what "true will" means has evolved as well. Thus, true will in a modern light is much different than true will in an ancient cultures light. When pondering this, it occurred to me that Thelema is one of the oldest, if not the oldest shamanic tradition.
Thoughts?
"Thelema" is the philosophy defined by The Book of the Law and developed by Crowley. It did not exist in any recognisable form prior to 1904. There may previously have been people doing something similar, or even something identical, but these people were not part of a "tradition" called "Thelema".
It sounds to me as if you want to take some old practices which were never related to anything called "true will" by the practitioners themselves, or to anything resembling the Thelemic concept of "true will" in any way, shape or form, and deciding that it's part of a long "Thelemic tradition" simply because you say it is. What you're really saying is "Thelema is the oldest shamanic tradition because and only because I'm taking a wide collection of diverse practices and simply deciding to call them 'Thelema' to prove my point." What you have here is not an argument or a position, but something you are simply declaring to be true or false by definition. With this line of "reasoning", there is nothing to stop us declaring that "true will" meant "surrendering one's own will and accepting some God's will" at that "stage in the evolution of the meaning", and that therefore Christians are Thelemites. You're attempting to remove all meaning from the word in order, for reasons best known to yourself, to attempt to prove that it's something really old.
Erwin
zain - Jul 27, 2008 - 05:28 PM
Post subject:
erwin, someone is attempting to start and interesting debate and engage in friendly discussion and you cut them down with lessons on their debating skills without offering anything useful again.
I am including the web address below to hopefully enlighten you about a possible condition you might have. You seem to have issues over language and its context (or its lack of context). Maybe the address below will help. Go and get help. The forum members are not your therapists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
Erwin - Jul 27, 2008 - 05:57 PM
Post subject:
zain wrote: › erwin, someone is attempting to start and interesting debate and engage in friendly discussion and you cut them down with lessons on their debating skills without offering anything useful again.
Zain, grow a brain. The original poster asked for "thoughts" on his argument, and he received some, just like he asked. Only a dimwit would think the response he got had anything to do with "debating skills", as you evidence.
Erwin
bullshitdetector - Jul 27, 2008 - 07:31 PM
Post subject:
Erwin, you do seem to have some sort of problem? maybe your just spouting the "oriental" party line? Anyway, thats by and by. Have you ever heard of Rabelais? the uninhibited adventures of Gargantua and Pantagruel? especially " The Abbey of Theleme"? some of Crowley's favourite stories. Now not a "magickal order" in the sense of the modern context, but written and thought about long before 1904, let's see... 1533. "So it did not exist in any recognisable form before 1904"??????? And... "The name Theleme is derived from the Greek thelema, meaning will or desire. It indicates the spirit of the place, whose motto is: "Fay ce que vouldras. Do as thou wouldst." This abbey may be an imaginary one, BUT REBELAIS IS AT PAINS TO LOCATE IT WITH RELATIVE PRECISION. It is situated, says M. henri clouzot, "in the islet of thickly grown meadows, hemmned inbetween the indre, the old Cher, and the loire" You will find further in the story a chapter "How the Thelemites Were Governed in Their Mode of Living, sub heading "do what thou wouldst." Check your history mate, and try not to be so rude!!
starla - Jul 27, 2008 - 07:32 PM
Post subject:
What made us crawl out of the swamp, gods will, our will, maybe the land just looked a bit drier.
I don't worry about terms saying it's 'Thelemic' it's 'Christian' it's 'Whatever'. We can project our beliefs into the past but it dosen't get us any further forward. Perhaps these are just words that describe our human spirit. These terms will change, new ones will emerge, one day they will even stop printing the Bible, but as long as we are here and have not succombed to soap opera's, football results and lottery tickets, our spirit will remain.
There's an old saying in occultism 'what is above is below'. At the risk of sounding like an episode of Star Trek, were all made from stars and that's where were headed. Crowley's Magick could lead a way but it's not the only way.
Sorry, must dash, the ombnibus 'Eastenders' is on.
zain - Jul 27, 2008 - 07:32 PM
Post subject:
piscean93 to take you up on your original point. If Shamanism was /is a form of Thelemic expression then you would have to take some things into your point.
The first is that (from my understanding) a Shaman acts as a conduit between the spirit world and material world. In one sense this is a sacrifice in that they have no say over it. They are usually chosen by their community/village to act has such. Also they take on the responsibility and burden of being the medicine man for their community. So in one sense its not about the Shaman's will as such. Its the will of the spirits who use the shaman as a point of contact/conduit.
So you would need to put across an aspect of Thelema that would suggest this burden and sacrifice implied. If anything i would suggest that shamanism is closer to the old school voudon and african magic practices where survival of the community was the priority of the shaman. Most of Crowley's material doesnt address cultural issues of this nature.
Erwin - Jul 27, 2008 - 08:55 PM
Post subject:
bullshitdetector wrote: › Have you ever heard of Rabelais? the uninhibited adventures of Gargantua and Pantagruel?
Yes, and:
1. It's fiction;
2. It isn't and never was either a "system", or a "philosophy" or a "tradition" called "Thelema"; and
3. It in any case bears only a passing resemblance to only some elements of Thelema.
bullshitdetector wrote: › Check your history mate, and try not to be so rude!!
Suggest you take your own advice before you manage to put your other foot in there, sunshine.
Erwin
bullshitdetector - Jul 27, 2008 - 09:15 PM
Post subject:
Erwin, fiction is a recognisable form! Many people (and they do) consider the book of the Law to be total fiction! and the concepts behind it, I never once intimated that Rabelais work wasn't fiction. sunshine.
bullshitdetector - Jul 27, 2008 - 09:24 PM
Post subject:
Erwin, just wanted to add, very interesting site of yours, most intelligent article on the True will.
Erwin - Jul 27, 2008 - 09:31 PM
Post subject:
bullshitdetector wrote: › Erwin, fiction is a recognisable form!
So what? You can't dispute that Thelema "did not exist in any recognisable form before 1904" on the grounds that something vaguely similar but fictional previously appeared in a story once, unless you want people to point at you and laugh. If it's fictional, it doesn't and never did exist. That's what "fiction" means.
Erwin
gurugeorge - Jul 27, 2008 - 09:57 PM
Post subject: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
piscean93 wrote: › Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law,
93,
I have an insight to share to begin a little discussed view of the law of Thelema. If you consider the root of Thelema is the Greek Love/Will, then please consider this: Extrapolating this out, as long as there has been a human on the planet doing what they believe their true will to be, there has been Thelema. This can be traced back into the mists of time, to the most ancient of days. Also keep in mind that as the race of humans has evolved, the evolution of what "true will" means has evolved as well. Thus, true will in a modern light is much different than true will in an ancient cultures light. When pondering this, it occurred to me that Thelema is one of the oldest, if not the oldest shamanic tradition.
Thoughts?
93,
Love is the law, love under Will
Well FWIW I agree with Erwin that it's overshooting the mark to call what you're pointing to a Thelemic-shamanic tradition per se. As he says, people may well have been doing, and indeed in some respects obviously must have been doing, things analogous to Thelemic practices way back through to the origins of humanity. But those ancient traditions have to be given their respect and due as distinct traditions with their own symbol structures that, while they may be analogous to Thelemic structures, can't honestly be said to have any actual historical continuity with Thelema.
Plus, most of them are now dead traditions about which we actually know very little. I think it would be difficult to say that there are any actual remnants of Neolithic shamanic traditions anywhere in the world, except possibly in primitive tribes - even then, there will likely have been considerable change over such a vast span of time. Tbh I think we only have a few remants of echoes of Neolithic shamanic traditions in some of the great religions that have their origin in the Bronze Age - e.g. perhaps most obviously Daoism, but also Judaism, Greek philosophy, etc., all bear what look like possible traces of older systems, like a sort of palimpsest.
As an aside though, I would suggest that perhaps Liber Arcanorum ιων ATU ν TAHUTI Quas Vidit Asar In Amennti Sub Figurâ CCXXXI Liber Carcerorum ιων Qliphoth cum suis Geniis (whew! 
) is probably the closest thing in Thelema to ancient shamanic practice - that is, taking ancient shamanism to involve a lot of burrowing downwards as opposed to ascent and flight (which seems to come later). I say this only from a vague memory of reading Maurice Eliade and Michael Harner on shamanism, so I'm sure people more expert than me will tell me I'm talking out of my ass if I am 
Iskandar - Jul 27, 2008 - 10:19 PM
Post subject: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
gurugeorge wrote: › I say this only from a vague memory of reading Maurice Eliade and Michael Harner on shamanism, so I'm sure people more expert than me will tell me I'm talking out of my ass if I am
Just a small correction: who you had in mind was Mircea not Maurice Eliade; a Romanian and not a French name
Otherwise, I agree that it is rather off the mark to consider ancient (or contemporary) shamanic practices as being involved in the pursuit of the will (in the Thelemic sense) as their defining characteristic. Which is not to say that one cannot combine Thelemic worldview with some form of shamanic practice. I think that Chaos Magick was an attempt of this sort. Gurugeorge suggestion of Crowley's Liber Carcerorum as a possible form of shamanic ritual is very interesting. Equally so, the suggestion that going down might be preferable to the usual 'upward' path is quite valid. Incidentally, the whole thrust of James Hillman's archetypal psychoanalysis - which otherwise shares a great deal of concord with the general principles of Thelema (see especially his book "The Soul's Code") - lies precisely in the insistence that the 'right' path towards embracing the reality of the psyche is downwards, going to the 'underworld' of the Hades. In the light of these remarks, Grant seems more geared in that direction, while Crowley was definitely the Solar magician. I often regard the two of them as representatives of Solar and Lunar tendencies in Thelema - if you take these remarks with a grain of salt of course (by which I mean that these classifications might be useful but should not be taken literally).
bullshitdetector - Jul 28, 2008 - 12:57 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
Erwin, my point was that Thelema did exist before 1904, as a concept of Will/freedom to live without restriction, and in a way that one chooses, it may have been written into a fictional story, but it does exist! i've got the book to prove it! unfortunatly not an original edition, but it is real!
Erwin - Jul 28, 2008 - 01:52 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
bullshitdetector wrote: › Erwin, my point was that Thelema did exist before 1904
I know that was your point. You're mistaken, for the reasons I already gave.
bullshitdetector wrote: › as a concept of Will/freedom to live without restriction, and in a way that one chooses,
You appear to be a little confused about what Thelema is. One can't live both in accordance with will and "in a way that one chooses".
Erwin
bullshitdetector - Jul 28, 2008 - 02:50 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
Erwin, one chooses to find one's True Will and lives in accordance with it, okay? Now, you are wrong on my first point, and i'm not mistaken, I refer you to Crowley's essay of 1926: " The Antecedents of Thelema", please read it, Crowley highlights Rebelais, even to the extent of believing Rebelais had forseen the future coming of his Magical Thelema. It is you who appear to be a little confused, but i'm sure his essay will put you right.
Erwin - Jul 28, 2008 - 04:03 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Thelema, the shamanic practice
bullshitdetector wrote: › Erwin, one chooses to find one's True Will and lives in accordance with it, okay?
Not good enough. One can just as easily choose to follow Christ. There's nothing unique to Thelema about "choosing" in this way. You're just weaseling on the back foot, now.
bullshitdetector wrote: › Now, you are wrong on my first point, and i'm not mistaken, I refer you to Crowley's essay of 1926: " The Antecedents of Thelema", please read it, Crowley highlights Rebelais, even to the extent of believing Rebelais had forseen the future coming of his Magical Thelema.
So, if Rabelais "had foreseen the future coming of ... Thelema" then Thelema did not exist at the time. Q.E.D., and by your own "logic", too.
bullshitdetector wrote: › It is you who appear to be a little confused
Try again.
Erwin
Uni_Verse - Jul 28, 2008 - 05:14 AM
Post subject:
IO PAN!
zardoz - Jul 28, 2008 - 09:55 AM
Post subject:
I agree with Kenneth Grant and others that Crowley was reviving a current of work that went as far back as ancient Sumer and possibly further. The form always changes and evolves but the core essence of this teaching remains constant. Therefore, I find this statement:
"When pondering this, it occurred to me that Thelema is one of the oldest, if not the oldest shamanic tradition. "
quite insightful.
Crowley's evil twin brother, G.I. Gurdjieff, presented the same basic teaching in a radically different form .... for those who have eyes... 
piscean93 - Jul 29, 2008 - 01:14 AM
Post subject: Thelema, the shamanic practice
Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the law
Whew! I didn't realize there was so much non-love in here. Oh well. I do agree that very few, if any, shamanic practices exist today as they were thousands of years ago. I have meditated on Thelema a lot over the last several years, and this is simply an interesting spin on Thelema. I do not espouse it to be correct, accurate, or detailed, but rather simply a different perspective that I had not heard mentioned before. (Oh, and thank you to whomever it was that gave me those Libers in this forum, and the reference to Grant re: Thelema being a revival going back into the ages. I had heard that, but never saw the footnotes-thanks!)
That is true about the sacrifice of the shaman, and in Thelema the closest sacrifice that is asked of an individual is to sacrifice the will of the personality self for the Will of the "HGA" self.
True, Crowley never said anything about shamanic Thelema, but he was the most (arguably) well-read person in his time, which means by default he would've had exposure to shamanic ideas, if nothing else.
And, of course, there are the many parallels between shamans and magicians. If this interests you, look into the book "The shaman and the magician" by Nevill Drury. It's an interesting insight.
93,
Love is the law, love under Will
Uni_Verse - Jul 29, 2008 - 02:00 AM
Post subject:
It is my impression that the shamanic practices lay at the root of all spirituality and magick. My opinion perhaps bias as I indulge often in the joy and ecstasy which is song and dance. Metaphors that could be easily attached to the elements of magick ritual.
The connection with nature would also be good for a Thelemite, in my humble opinion. Earth is Her little sister after all
sethur666 - Jul 29, 2008 - 02:29 PM
Post subject:
93
That the word Thelema existed before 1904 is so obvious that it proves nothing. That the notion of "will" existed before 1904 likewise. That "do as you will" has been a phrase before 1904 in various languages likewise, whether in Rabelais - where it clearly DOES mean do whatever you fancy - or in Dashwood's Abbey, is not disputed.
What seems to have happened here is that someone overawed by Crowley's philosophy and the religion of Thelemites has suddenly discovered that there were some antecedents and was as horrified as I was when, as a Beefheart fan, I first heard Howlin' Wolf. Live with it, I have no doubt that the words "book of the law" can be found before 1904 somewhere too.
None of these amount to the announcement of a new Aeon in human history. That magicians do their will is hardly the same thing.The full exposition of the New Aeon that has been developing since 1904 is a mile ahead of anything beforehand, IMHO. So there were antecedents of little, unconnected bits of Thelemic theory and practice. So what? Hero of Alexander demonstrated a steam engine, but hundreds of years later the Romans still failed to use the railway system to conquer Britain. The whole is greater than the parts.
kidneyhawk - Aug 03, 2008 - 01:09 AM
Post subject:
Quote: ›
"Thelema" is the philosophy defined by The Book of the Law and developed by Crowley. It did not exist in any recognisable form prior to 1904. There may previously have been people doing something similar, or even something identical, but these people were not part of a "tradition" called "Thelema".
Interestingly, I just happened this evening upon a letter written by Aleister Crowley to Montgomery Evans, dated October 22, 1926, in which he writes:
"Our position is that Rabelais was a great adept, a sort of prophet of Thelema. Note that in the description of the Abbey is an Oracle. In this he foretells an epoch when Church and Crown shall no longer count, but the world be run by bankers. He also indicates Bolshevism and such things; and the last line is a plain reference to me personally. My first motto was Perdurabo, 'I will endure to the end.'
"What you have to contact (sic?) is the ignorant idea that Rabelais is just a naughty writer. He was master of all the sciences no less than Dante and Leonardo, and like them he achieved an extraordinary work for intellectual freedom."
So there we go-AC seeing in a pre-1904 (and-gasp!-fictional!) work the activity of a "prophet of Thelema" who not only espoused and championed certain ideals belonging to a future age but saw it as both prescient and even foretelling of his own person arriving on the scene.
Kyle