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Thelema - Taking an oath in court
Robert_an_Keow - Aug 01, 2008 - 11:56 AM
Post subject: Taking an oath in court
Back in 2006 the Pagan Federation in the UK announced that the courts here would allow you to take an oath 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...by all that I hold sacred' instead of swearing by the bible, making a secular affirmation or whatever.

Counting myself a pagan (I realise that is a loose term but I at least fit a few of the definitions) my first reaction to this was to be quite pleased that, should I find myself in the dock, I would be allowed to make such an oath using CCXX instead of beginning my evidence with a lie merely to impress the court.

However, this was quickly dispelled by the thought that the oath remained absurd, how could I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when currently convinced that the truth canot be spoken? To take such an oath "by all that I hold sacred" would be to profane all that I hold sacred, in which case I might be better off using one of the standard oaths and perhaps profaning Christianity which, to judge by many of its adherents, is well used to it.

Sorry if this is old hat, and I hope not to find myself in court any day soon (fingers crossed Wink ), but I wonder how others square this dilemma.
the_real_simon_iff - Aug 01, 2008 - 12:06 PM
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
93!

Hmmm...

It would be pretty interesting to see what Crowley said when he faced court, if he had to swear at all...

To "answer" your question, I never thought of it since you do not have to swear on anything in a German court, you would never have to touch a Holy Book while swearing, but since Germans are free to use "so help me God" if they like to, I would think they could also use "Goddess" or "Gods" or other "divine entities".

Love=Law
Lutz
ianrons - Aug 01, 2008 - 12:20 PM
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
It has for many years been acceptable to swear on books other than the Bible in court -- nothing to do with anything happening in 2006, though I don't have, offhand, reference to the relevant Act of Parliament that enshrines this. The Book of the Law has been used to testify in the UK courts. I don't know if you could tailor the oath more than that -- possibly you could, but I'm sure it would always have to come down to what you say -- telling the "truth". If you don't accept that this is a meaningful notion "in Malkuth" then you're probably stuck. But it could be interesting to do the research and see what you could get away with.

Like Lutz, I am also curious about what AC swore in court. I don't even know whether the relevant trial record is public, but it might be interesting to find out.
OKontrair - Aug 01, 2008 - 02:05 PM
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
In Crowley's diary for July 1934 he records that he went to the Old Bailey on the 18th and the case was adjourned until 2.00pm on the 19th. it was probably adjourned again because the case took place on the 24th and 25th of July. On the 25th crowley records that he had a violent attack of asthma just as he got into the box (dock) - "Hell — stopped my spilling beans properly."

This was reported in a newspaper as:

...........CROWLEY IN THE BOX.
Crowley was then called, taking the oath in a very deliberate fashion. He described himself as an author and poet, writing under the name of Aleister Crowley. ...........

This last is on this site in the articles section although the dates of the two articles look wrong to me.

Had he varied the oath I think this would probably have been noted. AC's other appearance in the criminal court was before a magistrate where I dont believe any spoken evidence was called for or oath necessary.

OK
gurugeorge - Aug 01, 2008 - 05:24 PM
Post subject: Re: Taking an oath in court
Robert_an_Keow wrote: › Back in 2006 the Pagan Federation in the UK announced that the courts here would allow you to take an oath 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...by all that I hold sacred' instead of swearing by the bible, making a secular affirmation or whatever.

Counting myself a pagan (I realise that is a loose term but I at least fit a few of the definitions) my first reaction to this was to be quite pleased that, should I find myself in the dock, I would be allowed to make such an oath using CCXX instead of beginning my evidence with a lie merely to impress the court.

However, this was quickly dispelled by the thought that the oath remained absurd, how could I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when currently convinced that the truth canot be spoken? To take such an oath "by all that I hold sacred" would be to profane all that I hold sacred, in which case I might be better off using one of the standard oaths and perhaps profaning Christianity which, to judge by many of its adherents, is well used to it.

Sorry if this is old hat, and I hope not to find myself in court any day soon (fingers crossed Wink ), but I wonder how others square this dilemma.


Hmm, wrt the truth thing, I think the concept of "not mixing the planes" is important to remember with things like this. Court truth is not cosmic or epistemological truth, and it's not really all that problematic a concept.
Camlion - Aug 01, 2008 - 05:36 PM
Post subject: Re: Taking an oath in court
gurugeorge wrote: ›
Hmm, wrt the truth thing, I think the concept of "not mixing the planes" is important to remember with things like this. Court truth is not cosmic or epistemological truth, and it's not really all that problematic a concept.


Yes, and any deviation from the norm may tend to prejudice the judge or jury, which may not be what one wants. Sorry, just being practical...
Robert_an_Keow - Aug 03, 2008 - 02:29 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: Taking an oath in court
I had wondered what Crowley did when he was in court but had no idea how to find out. The report quoted suggests the standard format – I think anything else would have been seized on – and this is what I would have expected. In Magick Without Tears he admitted skipping the Thelemic greetings and so on if “It might detract from my personal influence, and so actually harm the Work that I am trying to perform”.
I’m not surprised to learn that the use of other religious books than the Bible has been acceptable in UK courts for some time – it did strike me as odd that with large populations of Muslims and Hindus it would take the Pagan Federation to address this particular issue. Maybe it was the wording of the oath that they had a hand in – I think the legal system still struggles with the concept of a religion that is not one of the big three, or at least has a conventional view of a creator god. I’ve seen a report of someone complaining that they ran into problems in court with actually using this wording because the court wasn’t up to speed on the position.
With regard to “truth”, I’m afraid I have a job with identifying “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” on even a mundane level – so much depends on perspective and pre-conditioning. I think I’d have to attempt to insert a “try to” between “swear to” and “tell the truth” and see if I could get away with it. Unfortunately, people seem to prefer being lied to rather than to hear complicated or difficult truths.
The practical point about prejudicing the view of the court to one’s evidence is very pertinent. I like to think that the courts have moved on a bit since Crowley’s day (even though the newspapers haven’t) and that there can even be an advantage in being “out of step” in religious terms these days, in the UK at least, given the way they tie themselves up in knots over religious discrimination and other such politically correct notions.
Nevertheless, I think if I do find myself giving evidence on oath I will have to take a view on the individual case (my usual practise!) rather than setting myself a firm rule. This would involve balancing the escape clauses in Magick Without Tears against my own interpretations of Liber Al III 17 & 38 (not to mention my own predisposition to exhibitionism!) – fortunately something I am already well practiced in by having to do it a minimum of four times a day already!
Thanks to you all for contributing to the considerations in achieving that balance.
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