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Teachers, Disciples and Students, Friends and Enemies - Dion Fortune
hamsolo - Sep 10, 2008 - 12:21 PM
Post subject: Dion Fortune
Hi all, 93
This is partly in response to the Regardie thread - I know that Regardie made friends with Dion Fortune, who referred to him as being her EQUAL (I don't recall the exact words) and this alone IMO proves how superior Crowley was to Fortune - try explaining that to members of SIL/SOL!
However my specific question was that somebody once told me Dion Fortune had written letters to Crowley asking for his magickal advice and acknowledging him to be a great master. I was wondering if anyone else could verify this or had any additional info.
93 93/93
nick
kuniggety - Sep 10, 2008 - 12:56 PM
Post subject:
I recall James Eshelman making the same comments on heruraha.net, of Dion Fortune holding Crowley in high regards. However, this was in private at the time and not something she was public about because of "image".
uranus - Sep 10, 2008 - 06:44 PM
Post subject:
First, how does Fortune holding Doc as her equal equate to Crowley being superior? Secondly, yes, she was corresponding with Crowley and waiting for a day when she might be able to publicly express her support of him and his work.
hamsolo - Sep 11, 2008 - 11:45 AM
Post subject:
Well I have nothing against Regardie, but could you imagine CROWLEY holding him to be his magickal equal? It sounds preposterous. Just my opinion of course.
93
nick
Nataraj418 - Sep 11, 2008 - 01:37 PM
Post subject: equality
hamsolo wrote: › ...could you imagine CROWLEY holding him to be his magickal equal? It sounds preposterous.
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Secondly, we have the spiritual concept of the "advanced" practitioner being "humble" and recognizing (through their direct perception of the facts as presented by the universe) that they are less than others.
Imagine CROWLEY holding [anyone] as his equal? Ha!
Alastrum - Sep 11, 2008 - 01:59 PM
Post subject: RE: equality
Kenneth Grant was present on two occasions when Fortune visited Crowley. He mentions it in a couple of books, the most detailed being in "Quest for Dion Fortune" by Janine Chapman, Weiser 1993. Grant missed most of one conversation as he was busy doing some task Crowley had set him, but he was present when they were discussing the sacrifice of a black cock or something like that (I don't have the book in front of me, so am writing from memory). Crowley claimed that he and Fortune had a "secret understanding" and that she acknowledged his authority.
alysa - Sep 11, 2008 - 02:16 PM
Post subject:
On the contrary, having read John Symonds "The King of the Shadow Realm" and Regardies own "The Eye in the Triangle", it showed to me itself enormously cleer that Crowley looked enormously down upon Regardie, even from day one in Paris. Crowley also thought very little upon Regardies writing on the Qabalah "The Tree of Life". It probably also was Crowley who made the nasty writing concerning one "Israel Reguydy" that for many years had its bad effests upon the life of Israel Regardie. Till now I always was unable to find a writing that showed itself the obvious contrary to what I wrote here.
uranus - Sep 11, 2008 - 10:21 PM
Post subject:
I don't think anyone was questioning that Crowley held Regardie in low esteem.
hamsolo - Sep 12, 2008 - 11:23 AM
Post subject: Re: equality
[quote="Nataraj418"]
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician.
Camlion - Sep 12, 2008 - 03:07 PM
Post subject: Re: equality
[quote="hamsolo"]Nataraj418 wrote: ›
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician.
'Each one is unique' is better suited to "being real," certainly, and any idea to the contrary causes nothing but trouble, here in America and elsewhere.
As for Crowley, he was a genius and he knew it; a quality that I would hesitate in ascribing to either Regardie or Fortune, not that they were without merit.
alysa - Sep 12, 2008 - 04:27 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
Uranus, you are right, I also didn't thought that, but I certainly didn't want to waste any great words or capitals on the idea that Crowley would have holded Regardie as his magickal equel. Hamsolo, I am real, I think people are not created as equals, we certainly all have our own particular abilities, as to my opinion I hold the thought now for more than twenty years that Crowley was a great magician. Nataraj, I also think "all of us are equal" is'nt a Thelemic thought. Camlion, I wish to add that " each one is unique", might be a better term to use. I also think that Fortune and Regardie had their merits.
sonofthestar@Gmail.com - Sep 13, 2008 - 05:56 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
If one reads the foreword to the book, The Mystical Qabalah--she, Miss Fortune,
writes: "As I have frequently referred to the authority of MacGregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley in matters of Qabalistic mysticism, it may be as well to explain my position in relation to these two writers."
She then goes on to say that she never knew either of those two gentlemen, etc.
I cannot say when The Mystical Qabalah was published, as mine has no date in it.
Later in the book, she disagrees with certain Chakra attributions as defined by AC.
I somewhere recollect, that in another of her books, she refers to AC as The Master Therion, or Therion--in reference to something or other. I cannot say for a fact that this is so, though I am almost certain of it. I do seem to recall it to be a positive sort of reference, and no thing at all negative. I will continue to look through what books I have by her for the precise words, if someone does not find it first.
All in all, she did indeed recognize him to be her superior concerning such things, and if she did not agree with his take on things, she did present his view to her readers (in The Mystical Qabalah).
Most of her "followers" I think, did, and do not recognize any such authority of his as she did, or would begrudgingly admit to it.
I've always enjoyed her books, especially her works of fiction based upon things "occult".
A likable Lady indeed!
Tried to contact her a while back on the astral, and oddly enough, the very next day the headlines for the paper read: Dame fortune frowns on New Orleans!
Love is the law, love under will.
uranus - Sep 13, 2008 - 10:46 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
The Mystical Qabalah was originally serialized in the Occult Review I believe and then collected for the book. This was in 1936 I believe as well.
hamsolo - Sep 16, 2008 - 12:24 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: equality
sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › I somewhere recollect, that in another of her books, she refers to AC as The Master Therion, or Therion
Yes she also has a story (don't recall which one) in which a man teaches himself magick after finding a book by "somebody who spells magic with a "k" at the end".
On the SOL website, Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki has a huge "recommended reading" list by which contains nothing whatsoever by Crowley, but includes just about everything by herself, Dion Fortune and W.E.Butler.
http://www.servantsofthelight.org/knowl ... ction.html
sonofthestar@Gmail.com - Sep 16, 2008 - 02:44 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: equality
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hello Hamsolo!
In a field rife with self aggrandizement (not always a bad thing)--Miss Fortune had no problems giving people credit where credit was due.
From the same book, The Mystical Qabalah:
"In these pages it is the system given by Crowley of which I shall avail myself to supplement the points upon which MacGregor Mathers, Wynn Westcott, and A. E. Waite, the principal modern authorities upon the Qabalah, are silent."
Concerning Crowley's work developed as 777, of corresponding and attributing many of the Gods, Angels, Animals, etc in their relation to the Tree, she writes:
"This has been done tentatively by Crowley, and is, I fancy, original work and not derived from Mathers. Its implications are not altogether clear to me, and I doubt if I could subscribe to all of them. An immensely wide range of scholarship is necessary for the satisfactory accomplishment of this branch, a range of scholarship which I do not possess."
This woman certainly does not lack for integrity.
Nor was she to be swayed by the vilification of AC, and would not back down or cower in her obvious (though not trumpet blaring) support for him.
Alan Richardson, the writer of the book, The Magical Life of Dion Fortune Priestess of the 20th Century, seems to have a problem with this support of hers for AC, in that he has to take a personal swipe at Therion ever so often, yet not go so far as he would like to, due to that very apparent acknowledging support of Violet Firth (Dion Fortune) for Therion.
Despite Richardson's noticeable wrestling with his problem--that the subject of his book had no real problems with AC, --it's still a great book worth reading.
Love is the law, love under will.
Nataraj418 - Sep 16, 2008 - 02:46 PM
Post subject: Re: equality
hamsolo wrote: › Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician.
Yes, of course all men are unequal. The term "all men are created equal" is an American concept that should include the suffix, "under the Law!" (And even that is democratic, wishful thinking - The last time I looked I saw that the mundane Halls of Justice were leaning towards those who had more bucks in the bank).
I suggested this Equality as a "consideration," but placed my hopes too high and failed to cite the level of consciousness involved. That is to say, when one is in an elevated state of consciousness, there is no difference among things and (even) people. The retarded sorcerer is seen as equal to the mighty adept. Not equal in terms of ability, but equal in terms of having a place in the scheme of things and deserving of equal respect.
So if Crowley "looked down" or "despised" or "felt superior" to Fortune or Regardie, then he simply wasn't operating (at that moment of condescension) in this posited, elevated, higher level of consciousness.
Yes, we probably all (well, most - as you say) agree that Crowley was a great magician. It has been written that there were only two people who ever escaped from his denunciatory attacks: Alan Bennett and Oscar Eckenstein (surely, there must have been others, but I don't know who they might be). So if he felt the need to grind down everyone else, what does that tell us about his everyday level of consciousness. One only has to read the Crowley communications in Martin Starr's "The Unknown God" to see where his (AC's) personality was in ordinary circumstances.
N.C.Bishop-Culpeper - Sep 17, 2008 - 10:17 AM
Post subject: Dion Fortune
Hi.
The bit about 'volumes on Magic spelt with a K' is in her novel "The Goat Foot God"
Dion Fortune considered "Magick in theory and Practice" an important work. In her periodical 'The Inner Light' of March 1933, in the 'Inner Light book service' under special offers, she has this to say;
'Magick' by 'The Master Therion', ( Aleister Crowley ) privately published on the Continent in four volumes at two guineas we can offer at 15/-. This is the most important occult publication of the century, and in it is reprinted the author's famous '777' a set of tables of magical correspondences of all systems. This alone commands at least two guineas on the second-hand market and only turns up at rare intervals. Like all this author's works, 'Magick' will go to a high price when the edition is exhausted. and those who wish to obtain a copy should loose no time in doing so.
Nick.
hamsolo - Sep 17, 2008 - 11:43 AM
Post subject:
Thanks everyone for this great info. I did not realise how publicly pro-Crowley Dion Fortune actually was.
It is also significant that Gareth Knight, in his "practical guide to qabalistic symbolism", proclaims that Crowley was right about switching the Tarot cards The Emperor and the Star. Which suggests this may have been, at least at one time, adopted by SIL (any SIL members here..?)
Yygdrasilian - Dec 01, 2008 - 02:40 AM
Post subject: Angel On My Shoulder, Crowley On The Other
Alastrum wrote: › Crowley claimed that he and Fortune had a "secret understanding"
I'm inclined to agree.
Poelzig - Dec 24, 2008 - 09:31 PM
Post subject: RE: Angel On My Shoulder, Crowley On The Other
Fortune repeatedly acknowledged Crowley and praised him with some specific reservations.
I don't quite understand the point of this thread unless it is merely "My guru is better than your guru" which means little insofar in relation to any individual reading or posting to this thread.
Dion Fortune has a lot of valuable material worth considering, it is not an either/or proposition, you can read Fortune AND Crowley unless you are just lazy or too intellectually weak to sort things out for yourself.
Ps. Crowley was also not the first person to spell Magic with a k, albeit he was the first to do so intentionally for symbolic reasons. The "J.F." English translation of Agrippa consistently spells magic with a k, before English spelling was standardized.
alysa - Dec 24, 2008 - 10:20 PM
Post subject: RE: Angel On My Shoulder, Crowley On The Other
Welcome back Poelzig, missed you very profoundly on this site, hope to see in the future more interesting threads of you, as to the spelling of words like magick, musick, and so on people used to write in that way before and still probably in the time of Shakespeare, after the time of Shakespeare they standardized the language English as in the way it now is, and it luckily stayed in that way. If they not always should try to change a language than it is for a formal non-user of that language much easyer to learn. Sorry to add my frustration on this thread but where I live they try to change the spelling rules every two or three years.
Bringer_Of_Light - Dec 28, 2008 - 12:22 AM
Post subject: RE: Angel On My Shoulder, Crowley On The Other
93 folks!
Some more info on the Fortune/Crowley business, taken from Gareth Knights "Dion Fortune & The Inner Light". According to this biography, Knight states that Kenneth Grant, when relating the event of the meeting between Crowley and Fortune to Alan Richardson thirty years later, stated that he still remembered the sparkle in her eye when countering Crowley quip for quip, and that she accidentally dropped a brooch shaped in the design of two wyvern creatures supporting a green stone. Crowley remarked that ten years before he would have consecrated it for her, to which she replied that ten years before she would have done it herself.
Still to read the Alan Richardson one but the above by Gareth Knight aint too bad a read if its still available.
uranus - Dec 30, 2008 - 10:00 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: equality
hamsolo wrote: ›
On the SOL website, Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki has a huge "recommended reading" list by which contains nothing whatsoever by Crowley, but includes just about everything by herself, Dion Fortune and W.E.Butler.
http://www.servantsofthelight.org/knowl ... ction.html
I can't help but comment on this many months later. LOL. It should be noted that MANY authors on the occult and occult orders leave off Crowley in their reading lists and judging by the magic of the SOL, leaving Crowley off the list is a great idea because while it is still rooted in Golden Dawn style systems, the overall package is as different as can be. To add Crowley into the suggested reading list would serve only to confuse those who might be interested in the system of the SOL. The SOL isn't the continuation of Fortune's work, it is inspired by her work. Fortune's order still functions to this day. The SOL is more like the Fraternitas LVX Occulta when compared to the Builders of the Adytum. BOTA is a very important element of thier teachings but they have added other material and their own take on the material.