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Teachers, Disciples and Students, Friends and Enemies - Crowley's Last Will and Testament
Jiminy_Cricket - Sep 10, 2008 - 04:45 PM
Post subject: Crowley's Last Will and Testament
ianrons wrote: › I didn't say Grant is "the" enemy of Crowley. I said that his writings and his actions showed him to be "an" enemy of Crowley. If you'd opposed AC's last will and testament then I might have said the same about you, but you haven't.
Nice point about the Last Will and Testament, buddie.
I have heard say that Crowley died an undischarged bankrupt, and that his copyrights were the property of the Official Receiver. In which case, leaving his copyrights to anyone at all might be kinda dumb, huh?
Hell, I wouldn't have thought that his Last Will and Testament was able to be implemented in this respect. Hardly needed anyone to oppose it.
ianrons - Sep 11, 2008 - 08:06 PM
Post subject: RE: Crowley
My original comment in http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/index.php?n ... 9532#29532 was as follows:
ianrons wrote: › Grant is fundamentally an enemy of Crowley, in his writings as well as his attempts to grasp Crowley's literary and magickal estate by proxy litigation and other less savoury means.
Whilst I'm happy to answer your particular comment, my criticism is a lot broader than the legal point that you raise. However, you do make a valid point (of which I am well aware), that AC was an undischarged bankrupt and so was not in a position to bequeath copyrights to OTO in his will. Of course, Grant didn't mention this when he effectively relied on AC's will to assert control of copyrights by falsely claiming to be the head of the OTO (he may have been unaware of it). Therefore your point, though valid, is entirely specious: Grant did oppose AC's will, believing -- or at least asserting -- it to be valid.
Besides this simple refutation of what you imply in your post, we can look at it in a different way. That is: AC's last will and testament should have been respected, regardless of legal difficulties, as a plain statement of AC's wishes. This may sound quite pompous, but AC's will was, and has been, respected by Germer and his successors in OTO, along with (importantly) the separate and financially draining obligation imposed by Crowley of Aleister Ataturk's welfare and upbringing (which they could conveniently have ignored), and despite continuous opposition from Grant extending over many decades.
However, I don't think this point about AC's legal will, copyrights, control of OTO, etc., ought to be taken in isolation from the vast philosophical gulf between AC and Grant in their respective writings, which Grant's Atlantis/Alien UFO/Creationism-believing followers don't seem to appreciate, even when it's pointed out to them in the plainest possible terms. But it's all to Crowley's credit; as Swift put it:
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
kidneyhawk - Sep 11, 2008 - 08:35 PM
Post subject: RE: Crowley
Quote: ›
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him
Too true.
Perhaps this explains the plethora of misunderstanding and insult hurled about towards one Mr. Kenneth Grant. 
ianrons - Sep 11, 2008 - 09:17 PM
Post subject: RE: Crowley
93 MichaelStaley and kidneyhawk,
Kick Me
Thesis. This is played by men whose social manner is equivalent to wearing a sign that reads "Please Don't Kick Me." The temptation is almost irresistible, and when the natural result follows, White cries piteously, "But the sign says 'don't kick me.'" Then he adds incredulously, "Why does this always happen to me?" [etc.]
-- Eric Berne, "Games People Play"
93 93/93
Ian
kidneyhawk - Sep 11, 2008 - 10:55 PM
Post subject: RE: Crowley
Quote: ›
kidneyhawk
You can call me Kyle, Ian.
I'll resist disobeying the sign hung over your own post as I think this thread isn't destined to go anywhere terribly productive. I will comment, however, that the parodic sneerings on ANY front don't really open the door to serious, interesting and mutually challenging discussion of matters relative to the "Legacy" of AC, chief of which is the engagement with existence known as "Thelema" in its multitude of manifestations.
I don't need to state my position as an ardent admirer of Grant as well as one whose spiritual path has been significantly impacted and infused with his writings. Never the less, I'm neither a "follower" nor "believer" and such lumpage isn't going to bring out anything worthwhile in a discussion.
Regardless of different perspectives, how about a little mutual respect for the people working their Wills in their own way? This is not at all some appeal for "agreement" but rather a better approach to generating some worthy dialogue.
Personally, I'd just as soon meet you all over on the Jane Wolfe thread once I get a copy of her diaries to reference!
93,
Kyle
lashtal - Sep 11, 2008 - 11:15 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Crowley
kidneyhawk wrote: › Personally, I'd just as soon meet you all over on the Jane Wolfe thread once I get a copy of her diaries to reference!
I'm looking forward to seeing how much of the material in the diaries hasn't already been published in the Red Flame series.
alysa - Sep 12, 2008 - 08:29 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley
I certainly for one day in my life wish to start with the writings of mr. Grant. I think he and his wife are certainly worth the admiration they are enyoing now on for so many years, even decades. I think it's of the greatest importance to all of us to try and fullfil our own True Wills, and that for that purpose it is important that there always and at any times will be at our disposals kinds of supplies for fulfilling that need. I think it's also important that one never should be a follower or a believer of anyone or anything if one has not read already enough of the writings of that anyone or about that anything to making a good opinion of that anyone or anything. Than the question arises with me, when should one ever has done enough of the reading? Kidneyhawk, that last one wasn't certainly meant on you. I am also looking forward for the Jane Wolfe Writings.
Alastrum - Sep 13, 2008 - 01:04 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley
"I believe one has to read the whole of Grant’s major works to get a sense of his purpose as a systematic philosopher. Like his 19th Century counterpart, Gerald Massey, the discarded wisdom of the ages, both east and west, is again put to use; Grant recycles ideas and refits them to his real science of the universe, which is unconstrained by the limits of academic knowledge. As his longtime colleague, the Rev. Michael P. Bertiaux, has observed, his philosophical principles derived from cultic mysticism are validated by the contemporary experiences of hysteria, the artistic insights of Surrealism, automatic writing, scientific intuition, the records of magicians of various stripes, and the deepest humanitarianism. All this comes at a price. Studying Grant is not a sweatless egalitarian journey for all and sundry. If we don’t apply ourselves to understand his work, we have only ourselves to blame if we cannot perceive his vision. " Martin P. Starr.
kidneyhawk - Sep 13, 2008 - 02:05 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley
I can only applaud that quote from Mr. Starr.
Utterly perfect.
kidneyhawk - Sep 13, 2008 - 02:21 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley
Quote: ›
I'm looking forward to seeing how much of the material in the diaries hasn't already been published in the Red Flame series
I've heard many good things about the Red Flame series but regrettably I don't own any of the volumes. This will make almost ALL of the material new to me and as Lulu just sent me an email saying the book has been shipped, I'm very much looking forward to delving into it. Cefalu was a very interesting and controversial time with mixed "reviews." Leah left the "social experiment" rather shattered and Bennett ended his own Cefalu diary declaring that "I can now say with confidence that A.C. is not right; he has not got the right thing." Wolfe, as I understand, found a more positive outcome to that time and I am very interested in reading of how she developed during those days.
As we banter a bit re: Grant, Regardie and others, I think it's worth considering that all of those people who encountered and followed after Crowley are something of a testimony to his magic and philosophy in action. I am certainly of the opinion that AC did not always handle his personal relationships well and people were not always blessed to be in proximity of the Beast. On the other hand, there were those who met with his difficult personality and took from it something of great value. Hence Grant's quoting of AC at the begining of "Remembering AC," where he speaks of working on Gold with acid.
"Young Grant" certainly tasted some of the "acid," as that book shows and he continued on through the rest of his life as a Thelemite, amongst other things. I am looking forward to Wolfe's own insights and experiences in this respect very much.
lashtal - Sep 13, 2008 - 11:49 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Crowley
Alastrum wrote: › "Like his 19th Century counterpart, Gerald Massey
True, very true...
Uni_Verse - Sep 13, 2008 - 06:31 PM
Post subject:
Though not familiar with Grant and his work, from what I do know he appears to be more an opposer than an enemy. Taking on a current in opposition in order to unite the divided. The depth of his success, to me, lays unknown.
Tiger - Sep 13, 2008 - 09:25 PM
Post subject:
Quote: › "The depth of his success, to me, lays unknown.
While Allen Bennet brought Buddhism to the west, Grant opens the world to Thelema; freedom; to do your will, and produces a visionary transmission.
I Swear upon the Bible though the Bible tells me Swearing is a Sin Your Honour.