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Thelema - No politics

kizaen - Sep 19, 2008 - 03:27 AM
Post subject: No politics

93

A while back there where some discussions about politics.

I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.

For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema. Would this be because it may affect the practice in a negative?

Paul

kidneyhawk - Sep 19, 2008 - 04:11 AM
Post subject: RE: No politics

Paul,

93,

The Law of Thelema is "Do What Thou Wilt" and I think this will be observed to set people at odds in certain situations. The idea of some fluffy bunny harmony being realized if everyone just "Does Their Will" I don't think is realistic. I do think that much unnecessary conflict would be avoided and things would progress much more smoothly but at present I see the "activation" of the Will as charting a course against the Zeitgeist, which reflects as much a "shadow" of the "Old Aeon" as it does the rising of the "Crowned and Conquering Child."

I had a friend who voted Republican in American Politics as he believed it was the route to ultimate freedom. I was also told that there was a "Thelemic Republican" group some years ago, although it would seem more "natural" that "Thelemites" would sympathize with Libertarianism.

I am not aware of any requirement that one side with or avoid any political persuasion based on Thelemic Ideals. The "Masonic" ideal is that politics not enter into the spirituality and egalitarianism of the Lodgeroom. This is your run of the mill Blue Lodge Masonry. If this is so with "standard" Masonry, how much more so with the sundry Thelemic Groups which function on a Masonic Model (such as OTO, Inc).

Quote: ›
For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema

I believe the "requirement" is geared towards MAGICKAL Orders and NOT "Political Parties" as there is, to my knowledge, no "Thelemic Party" and the basic idea is to keep one's Magickal Alliance from entering into counter-productive conflict.

Quote: ›
I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics

Although it may seem like the trite Thelemic "party line": Be true to yourself and Do What Thou Wilt. There's no point in causing division amongst Thelemites based on convictions in this realm. The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man. I suspect this won't be realized by adhering to the "correct" political party but by living one's life in ever increasing measure to one's Will.

Just my perspective,

Kyle

rzk - Sep 19, 2008 - 01:29 PM
Post subject:

It seems to me that what we normally speak of as politics is about governing, and as a freedom-lover, I am rather at odds with the whole idea of governing and being controlled by someone else, whether they call themselves politicians or executives. I am not really interested in voting for people to control me, or belong to a party that wants to control me, or accepting the whole notion of having people owning the company where I work and thus controlling my salary, my workinghours and the way the work is to be carried out.
Also, it seems to me that the majority of the money I should gain by working is actually not stolen by the state, but rather by the ones who own the damn business. The state is also probably the best thing that ever happened to the capitalists (now using the word in reference to the class, not some kind of "ideology" - because it is not an ideology), since it is a whole organism devoted to work as some kind of watchdog so that normal people don't take over what should rightly be ours, run by the money that we have earned and making sure that the tensions in society don't grow too great and visible, aswell as making us somehow think that it is the politicians that somehow really control the society, instead of the owners of the Fortune 500 and the controllers of the banks.

As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...".

kizaen - Sep 19, 2008 - 03:27 PM
Post subject:

93 Kyle,

In the case of the Typhonian OTO Preliminary Statement they refer to a "...candidate who is already a member of, or affiliated to any occult, religious or political organization which has not officially accepted the Law of Thelema..." such person would not be able to enter the Order.
What makes me interested in this is to understand if this is a particular requirement of one Thelemic Order (which I happen to have in a very high regard), perhaps for reasons that are not public, or if it is somehow accepted that deep involvement in politics is, at least more often than not, a factor that increases the illusion of identity, as might be any activity based on "defending" ideas instead of really, honestly and openly sharing one s thought. Of course Im not referring to morals or anything like that. Im only looking to the type of activity, which if one is careless might become disruptive to the Work.

93 93/93

Paul

Camlion - Sep 19, 2008 - 05:11 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

93 Paul,

kizaen wrote: › 93

A while back there where some discussions about politics.

I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.

For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema. Would this be because it may affect the practice in a negative?

Paul

POLITICS - per Merriam-Webster: 1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government

IMO, there is no more perfectly suited point of reference for such endeavors as politics than the Law of Thelema. To avoid in advance past confusion on the subject in these forums and elsewhere, the goal of a Thelemic political perspective is best expressed as 'the optimum Thelema-friendly environment.'

The true Will of each individual cannot be determined with any certainty, let alone dictated, by external governmental authority. Emphasis thereupon can, however, certainly be acknowledged and encouraged by such authority, and the relegation and hindrance thereof can be discouraged.

In the political models prominent in most modern societies today, emphasis is either 'leftist,' with attention on assuring individual liberties, but at the expense of individual self-reliance, or 'rightist,' with attention on assuring individual self-reliance, but at the expense of individual liberties. Hence, as examples, a typical 'leftist' is pro-lifestyle choice and also pro-government financial assistance. A typical 'rightist' is anti-lifestyle choice and anti-government financial assistance.

Each of these political 'bents' are, in the view of many Thelemites, self-defeating, as both optimum individual liberty and optimum individual self-reliance are necessary to optimum fulfillment of individual true Will. The choice that most of us inevitably face is one of the lesser of the two evils.

Other than this, I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills. Wink

93 93/93
Camlion

Camlion - Sep 19, 2008 - 05:39 PM
Post subject:

kizaen wrote: › 93 Kyle,

In the case of the Typhonian OTO Preliminary Statement they refer to a "...candidate who is already a member of, or affiliated to any occult, religious or political organization which has not officially accepted the Law of Thelema..." such person would not be able to enter the Order.

As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?

kizaen - Sep 19, 2008 - 07:07 PM
Post subject:

Camlion wrote: ›

As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?

93
I see what you mean Camilion (and I agree about what you say about the focus)

Perhaps I should compare this with a wider range of "passions", things that get one involved in an emotional way.

For example if you watch 5 hours a day of TV, few people will doubt it is a pointless hindrance. The thing with politics is that it has the mask of importance. While in a political discussion you can see the same attitude you see in 2 angry hockey players, they have an excuse: it is something "important". It may even escalate to a full blown discussion or fist fight.

Then it shows itself to be not about the subject of discussion itself, something else is there... like pure desire to defend the ego and the things it clings to.

Michael, are you around? ( I think I should say his name three times.... no wait... thats Candyman Very Happy

)

I´d really like to know what you think about this. And again not about politics in themselves, but about how it tends to affect the Work.

93 93/93

Nataraj418 - Sep 19, 2008 - 07:24 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

kizaen wrote: › I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.

Wow! What a loaded question! Sort of like asking about what what thinks about being involved in sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. You know: You can't avoid it, but there are many ramifications - enough certainly to start disputes and cause wars.

Some societies have a "separation of church and state," which I think is a really good thing. But here in the USA, where this "separation" is supposed to be Law, we find (mostly) Christian organizations actively involved in promoting and supporting candidates for political office due to the candidate's stand on "Christian ideals," most notably abortion rights (and, of course, others).

rzk indicates that "As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". Well, I think we should elect Zhuang-Zi as the Supreme Potentate so that he can dissolve all governments.

Crowley said: "Is there a government? then I'm agin it!" - Book of Lies, Chapter 80. I think we should elect Crowley to the Supreme Potentatship so that he can dissolve all governments.

Jahl said, "Anarchy would be great! How would these power-brokers react if everyone were on an equal footing?"

kidneyhawk cited the fact that "The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man." Perhaps the word "claims" is the key here and it leaves one to wonder what this wonderful secret is, because there has certainly been no evidence of it shown to the world that I can detect.

Have you ever noticed how informal, metaphysical discussions often end up on a political note. After all, everyone wants their spiritual ideals to become manifest in the mundane world.

Good Luck on that. Is there a political party or process? I'm agin it!

And finally, it must observed that once a politician gets into office, his or her first priority always becomes "How to STAY in office." The job that they were elected/appointed to perform is secondary to this primary priority - and perhaps even meaningless in the face of retaining power.

Camlion - Sep 19, 2008 - 07:37 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: ›

kizaen wrote: › I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.

Camlion - Sep 19, 2008 - 08:09 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: › Wow! What a loaded question! Sort of like asking about what what thinks about being involved in sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. You know: You can't avoid it, but there are many ramifications - enough certainly to start disputes and cause wars.

Some societies have a "separation of church and state," which I think is a really good thing. But here in the USA, where this "separation" is supposed to be Law, we find (mostly) Christian organizations actively involved in promoting and supporting candidates for political office due to the candidate's stand on "Christian ideals," most notably abortion rights (and, of course, others).

rzk indicates that "As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". Well, I think we should elect Zhuang-Zi as the Supreme Potentate so that he can dissolve all governments.

Crowley said: "Is there a government? then I'm agin it!" - Book of Lies, Chapter 80. I think we should elect Crowley to the Supreme Potentatship so that he can dissolve all governments.

Jahl said, "Anarchy would be great! How would these power-brokers react if everyone were on an equal footing?"

kidneyhawk cited the fact that "The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man." Perhaps the word "claims" is the key here and it leaves one to wonder what this wonderful secret is, because there has certainly been no evidence of it shown to the world that I can detect.

Have you ever noticed how informal, metaphysical discussions often end up on a political note. After all, everyone wants their spiritual ideals to become manifest in the mundane world.

Good Luck on that. Is there a political party or process? I'm agin it!

And finally, it must observed that once a politician gets into office, his or her first priority always becomes "How to STAY in office." The job that they were elected/appointed to perform is secondary to this primary priority - and perhaps even meaningless in the face of retaining power.

Pardon the redundant vacant post above. I can no longer delete, so perhaps Paul will do so. Thanks.

I should note that I was being sarcastic above when I wrote: "Other than this, I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills." I've simultaneously been engaged in theurgy and politics for a very long time with no ill effects. A natural interest in either subject is often an indication of true Will in that direction, as with all things.

The separation of church and state is only necessary until 'Do what thou wilt' is the basis of each.

The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants.

Anarchy appeals only to those frustrated by their 'lot in life' in relation to that perceived of others. To each his or her own true Will, no more, no less, as determined by self-awareness and governed by self-discipline.

Some member of OTO would be a better authority on their actual mechanism of universal brotherhood than I. For me, it would begin with self-respect and extend outward in like manor from there.

Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes.

Nataraj418 - Sep 20, 2008 - 03:10 AM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Camlion wrote: › The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants.

This, of course, is absolutely correct.

Camlion wrote: › Some member of OTO would be a better authority on their actual mechanism of universal brotherhood than I. For me, it would begin with self-respect and extend outward in like manor from there.

I qualify as your "better authority" (a high rank at that - so that I might stand forth to state that I know what I'm talking about). OTO has no "secret" of universal brotherhood. The claiming of this particular "secret" should possibly be reviewed by the Federal Trade Commission, or at least the Grand Tribunal. Universal Brotherhood is realized by each individual when he/she issues beyond his/her egoic limitations and DIRECTLY PERCEIVES that we are all, indeed, derived from the same source and no better or no worse [and no different] than any other. This is not a matter of belief - It is a matter of experience! There is no "secret" or "mechanism" involved, unless we list meditation (the dhyana "result" - not the beginning practices) or power plants (you know of what I speak) or any other practice that exhausts the ego - but these are certainly not exclusive to the Oriental Templars.
Yes, you are right - It begins with "self-respect" (or self-love or some similar term), which must be accomplished before one can extend it outward in like "manner."

Camlion wrote: › Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes.

Absolutely. A very astute observation. This would go a long way towards cleaning out the rat's nest.
Not to detract from the validity of the above paragraph, but in Mexico we find government officials elected to a single 6-year term. Each official then appoints his brothers, cousins, uncles, and friends to every post he has control over. And then they all set to work to fleece the populace to the maximum level, for they need to make their fortune in six short years. The result is one of the crookedest systems around. Well, at least in Mexico they sell their favors on the top of the table; while in the USA it seems the underside of the table is preferred.

Aleisterion - Sep 20, 2008 - 04:09 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: No politics

Camlion wrote: "I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills."

Well, that's certainly well and good for you, but others might find their will to be focused on such matters. "Ultimate trance state" and "ritual skills" might be perfected in others whose will is directed otherwise.

"The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants."

Idealistic but naive. Witness the financial disaster that has befallen Wall Street, as an example. Self-reliance? Pretty hard for the poor to be self-reliant when the failings of trickle-down economics (owing to incessant greed and lack of regulation) leaves only crumbs for the hard-working poor. Wealth, at any rate, doesn't equal greatness. Crowley was hardly self-reliant throughout at least half of his life. Many times he was kept alive owing to the generosity of those whom his women had to beg for cash. He squandered his fortune and, when bills came due, he often ran the other way.

"Anarchy appeals only to those frustrated by their 'lot in life' in relation to that perceived of others. To each his or her own true Will, no more, no less, as determined by self-awareness and governed by self-discipline."

Anarchy can at times be the best course of action for change. Often anarchists are born out of societal mismanagement and corruption.

"Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes."

Absolute power corrupts absolutely? Not if we're talking about destined masters of will. The best thing is to ensure that the process breeds true regents, and to weed out the corrupt.

If Thelemites want to succeed in a secular world, they should, I would think, make an effort to choose to support the lesser of two evils, and recognize that the political system will be driven against the objectives of liberty and justice, in favor of mere secular corporate interests, with lies and cover-ups standing in the way of righteousness.

Alastrum - Sep 20, 2008 - 04:46 AM
Post subject:

Camlion wrote: ›

As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?

It was certainly true when I was a member, and I expect it still is.

Patriarch156 - Sep 20, 2008 - 05:08 AM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: › I qualify as your "better authority" (a high rank at that - so that I might stand forth to state that I know what I'm talking about). OTO has no "secret" of universal brotherhood

Actually, though you may be of "high rank" (whatever that is), you seem to be misinformed on what Crowley was referring to in this instance. As can be seen in section XX of Book 414 when Crowley advertised through his propoganda effort this secret of realizing the universal brotherhood he had a specific secret in mind and it was not your concepts of meditational practices.

Whether or not this secret would qualify for (as you bring up) trade secret protection or indeed if it is capable of realizing this brotherhood of man is another discussion entirely.

Nataraj418 - Sep 20, 2008 - 01:29 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: › Actually, though you may be of "high rank" (whatever that is), you seem to be misinformed on what Crowley was referring to in this instance. As can be seen in section XX of Book 414 when Crowley advertised through his propoganda effort this secret of realizing the universal brotherhood he had a specific secret in mind and it was not your concepts of meditational practices.

"High Rank" means I have seen the elephant and know all his "secrets." There is no need to list numbers and grades and sanctuaries.
I am not misinformed. The claim that one possesses the "Secret of Universal Brotherhood" is equal to the claim that you will go to heaven if you will simply believe in Jesus, or that you will enter paradise if you are a successful suicide-bomber.
De Arte Magica [414] deals with the "secret" of sexual magick. There is no connection between this (hardly secret any more) technique and Universal Brotherhood, unless one considers that (almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another.

Patriarch156 wrote: › Whether or not this secret would qualify for (as you bring up) trade secret protection or indeed if it is capable of realizing this brotherhood of man is another discussion entirely.

Reference to the Federal Trade Commission was related to false advertising (which they investigate), not "trade secret protection."

In respect of others' comments on Anarchy, it is perhaps notable that there are many areas on our planets that are true "no man's lands" - that is, there is no government, there is no law, there is simply one's self and there are other people, and everyone gets along (or takes offense and attacks others) based on the energies and attitudes of the moment. I would hope that anyone commenting on anarchy has indeed experienced the joy of being in such a lawless, ungoverned state.

lashtal - Sep 20, 2008 - 01:35 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: › I would hope that anyone commenting on anarchy has indeed experienced the joy of being in such a lawless, ungoverned state.

Indeed.

Ask the Rwandans, the Cambodians... Hell, ask the residents of any of a huge number of sink estates. As the really rather intelligent Stephen Fry observes: "Mankind can live free in a society hemmed in by laws, but we have yet to find a historical example of mankind living free in lawless anarchy."

Anyone who considers Crowley to have been an anarchist has seriously misunderstood the point!

Patriarch156 - Sep 20, 2008 - 04:07 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Glad we cleared up the "high rank" question, since your answer only confirmed my suspicions.

Nataraj418 wrote: › I am not misinformed. The claim that one possesses the "Secret of Universal Brotherhood" is equal to the claim that you will go to heaven if you will simply believe in Jesus, or that you will enter paradise if you are a successful suicide-bomber. De Arte Magica [414] deals with the "secret" of sexual magick. There is no connection between this (hardly secret any more) technique and Universal Brotherhood, unless one considers that (almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another.

Again as I pointed out whether or not this is workable is a different question as to just what Crowley meant when using this rhetorical device in his propoganda effort on behalf of the O.T.O. As such I do not deny you the right to claim that it is unworkable or even that it no longer is "secret" (if it ever were) in any conventional sense of the word, I am merely pointing out what Crowley wrote on the actual subject of the supposed secret that had the power fo realizing the universal brotherhood of man.

Your misinformed assertions that Book 414 has nothing to do with this "secret" aside, my reference to it was merely to bring to your attention that the 414 lists the actual "secret." If you choose to dismiss it as being about "(almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another" that is really up to you, but it still wouldn't make you informed about the subject matter.

Camlion - Sep 20, 2008 - 05:39 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: › Camlion wrote: "I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills."

Well, that's certainly well and good for you, but others might find their will to be focused on such matters. "Ultimate trance state" and "ritual skills" might be perfected in others whose will is directed otherwise.

"The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants."

Idealistic but naive. Witness the financial disaster that has befallen Wall Street, as an example. Self-reliance? Pretty hard for the poor to be self-reliant when the failings of trickle-down economics (owing to incessant greed and lack of regulation) leaves only crumbs for the hard-working poor. Wealth, at any rate, doesn't equal greatness. Crowley was hardly self-reliant throughout at least half of his life. Many times he was kept alive owing to the generosity of those whom his women had to beg for cash. He squandered his fortune and, when bills came due, he often ran the other way.

"Anarchy appeals only to those frustrated by their 'lot in life' in relation to that perceived of others. To each his or her own true Will, no more, no less, as determined by self-awareness and governed by self-discipline."

Anarchy can at times be the best course of action for change. Often anarchists are born out of societal mismanagement and corruption.

"Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes."

Absolute power corrupts absolutely? Not if we're talking about destined masters of will. The best thing is to ensure that the process breeds true regents, and to weed out the corrupt.

If Thelemites want to succeed in a secular world, they should, I would think, make an effort to choose to support the lesser of two evils, and recognize that the political system will be driven against the objectives of liberty and justice, in favor of mere secular corporate interests, with lies and cover-ups standing in the way of righteousness.

As clearly noted in my subsequent post, I was being facetious when I wrote "I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills." (I was actually poking fun at some my fellow Lashtalians, but sarcasm is rarely a good idea on the internet.) I am, in fact, a politically engaged individual, who also happens to be a theurgist, both in accordance with my true Wll.

Concerning the 'plight of the poor' and "trickle-down economics," you obviously understand neither, Aleisterion. (By the way, you also obviously have the garden variety 'liberal bent.' I am bent in neither direction myself, but rather in the direction of own true Will, so I can speak more clearly from personal experience of these matters.)

To make a very long story shorter, I was once rather poor myself. Looking around at my fellow 'victims of poverty,' I observed that most were actually victims of their own Abrahamic faith. Most observers of things social and political overlook this fatal flaw in a given population, and its crippling effect upon the human Spirit. They had surrendered psychologically to the mistaken assumption that the 'will of god' had something to do with their plight. Being a Thelemite, I knew better, that there was no god but man, and I did my true Will as a free man among slaves. I became an independent person among masses of hopelessly dependent people, dependent upon both gods and governments.

Today, I am an ownership partner in three businesses, with a fourth currently in startup. I am independent financially; that is to say, I have the subsistence required to do my true Will for the projected duration of my life. I have neither too much nor too little to accomplish that end, for either extreme would be a distraction to that Great Work.

As for a 'trickle down' effect of my financial success, well, I do employ people who can rely upon their paychecks being delivered on schedule, without fail. These individuals also have medical benefits for themselves and their families, profit share programs and so on. So, yes, it has trickled.

I am neither idealistic nor naive. You, from what you say, are clearly both, Aleisterion.

Concerning Aleister Crowley as a perfect example of applied Thelema, he was not. Without him, we would be without the Seed of that growth, but his personal life was not an example of applied Thelema in full bloom. (Neither is my own, but I am not far off, IMO.)

Anarchists are born of frustration and confusion. Their philosophy is one of misinterpretation of the facts surrounding the conditions in which they find themselves 'victim.' They are mostly far too distracted to act in accord with true Will, too preoccupied in reacting irrationally to perceived injustice to effectively extricate themselves from it.

Every man and every woman is a destined Master of true Will, potentially. The responsibility for realizing that potential rests with the individual, not with the government or the god. Yes, government should acknowledge and facilitate this process; that is, mostly, it should refrain from interfering with it. Dependency upon a government or a god is not freedom, it is the enemy of freedom, the opposite of independence.

Camlion - Sep 20, 2008 - 05:49 PM
Post subject:

Alastrum wrote: ›

Camlion wrote: ›

As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?

It was certainly true when I was a member, and I expect it still is.

Thanks for that, Alastrum. Well, that is clearly a case of an already marginalized Thelemic sect further marginalizing themselves, IMO. If they lapse from obscurity into utter oblivion within a generation or two, they will have only themselves to blame.

Camlion - Sep 20, 2008 - 05:58 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: ›

Yes, that is why I used the word "mechanism" rather than 'philosophy' or other similar vague terminology. This is intended to be a very practical, rather than theoretical, reference to 'universal brotherhood,' as I understand it. Smile

Patriarch156 - Sep 20, 2008 - 06:13 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Camlion wrote: › Yes, that is why I used the word "mechanism" rather than 'philosophy' or other similar vague terminology. This is intended to be a very practical, rather than theoretical, reference to 'universal brotherhood,' as I understand it. Smile

Personally I feel that it is an unrealistic idea except to unite the few and secret perhaps, those that have affinity towards that sort of thinking of man and his religion.

Because on the face of it, though of course A.C. thought it was the literal truth and as such beyond doubt for any thinking rational man, it is like Christians talking about the universal brotherhood of man open to all who partake in the Body of Christ as the True Church.

But then I think any notion of a true universal brotherhood is a bit unrealistic, as true brotherhood arises from having, partaking in and working towards commonalities and I fear the commonality Crowley advanced in that particular secret does not have the power to unite anyone but the very few, particularly since despite Crowley declaring it beyond doubt, it has been disproved by comparative religion.

zardoz - Sep 20, 2008 - 06:31 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: ›

Perhaps we are mistaken in assuming that Crowley meant a world-wide community where everyone would get along when he advertised ' the Secret of Universal Brotherhood?' Maybe he was describing a relation one enters into with scenario Universe when the secret gets realized? In which case, it has nothing at all to do with politics.

I see nothing wrong with Thelemites getting involved with politics. I would myself, except that, here in the US, politicians and intelligence seem mutually exclusive.

... back to trance ..... Very Happy

Aleisterion - Sep 20, 2008 - 06:56 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: No politics

Camlion wrote:

"Concerning the 'plight of the poor' and "trickle-down economics," you obviously understand neither, Aleisterion. (By the way, you also obviously have the garden variety 'liberal bent.' I am bent in neither direction myself, but rather in the direction of own true Will, so I can speak more clearly from personal experience of these matters.)"

I think that what is happening here in the States, on Wall Street, pretty much says loads about the policies of the right. The last time liberals were in power, they took the deficit left them and made it a surplus in 8 years. The right-wing took that surplus and have now turned it into a trillion dollar deficit. A TRILLION. That says it all. Just for clarification, to put that number into perspective, consider that a million seconds equals 11 days, 20 hours, 4 minutes and 4 seconds; a billion seconds equals 32 years; and a trillion equals out to 31,688 years 269 days 17 hours 34 minutes 25 seconds. It is an extraordinary number.

Camlion: "To make a very long story shorter, I was once rather poor myself. Looking around at my fellow 'victims of poverty,' I observed that most were actually victims of their own Abrahamic faith. Most observers of things social and political overlook this fatal flaw in a given population, and its crippling effect upon the human Spirit. They had surrendered psychologically to the mistaken assumption that the 'will of god' had something to do with their plight. Being a Thelemite, I knew better, that there was no god but man, and I did my true Will as a free man among slaves. I became an independent person among masses of hopelessly dependent people, dependent upon both gods and governments."

Good for you. My main consideration is that, while there are multitudes in poverty --- "slaves" as you call them (actually as an aside, we're all both slaves and regents, and the prince-priest was himself labelled slave) --- I simply feel that giving absolute license to lobbyists and tax-breaks to the rich while putting the financial burden on the middle-class has proven to be disastrous.

Camlion: "Today, I am an ownership partner in three businesses, with a fourth currently in startup. I am independent financially; that is to say, I have the subsistence required to do my true Will for the projected duration of my life. I have neither too much nor too little to accomplish that end, for either extreme would be a distraction to that Great Work."

Congrats for your success. I don't mean to come off as demeaning in any way. Money matters, while mundane, are important insofar as a weak economy and a shrinking dollar hurt not just the people here but economies overseas as well, leaving regents and slaves alike with having to concern themselves less with the Great Work and more on tooth-and-nail survival. It's pretty hard to find muchj time for meditation when you're working two or three jobs to pay for expenses and hefty taxes while the rich skate along, dropping crumbs for those whom they regard as wretched slaves. I understand that there are Thelemites who think that the primary qualification for being a Thelemite is being wealthy. I've debated with some who think this way and was unimpressed with this interpretation of Thelema.

Camlion: "As for a 'trickle down' effect of my financial success, well, I do employ people who can rely upon their paychecks being delivered on schedule, without fail. These individuals also have medical benefits for themselves and their families, profit share programs and so on. So, yes, it has trickled."

Oh it's trickled alright, but not in a good way. BTW it isn't the policies of the left that are to blame for the current mortgage meltdown that has led to a trillion-dollar bailout, but the policy of deregulation that resulted in greedy lenders taking full advantage of the situation, while they leap out of the way of the disaster with golden parachutes. Spare me the optimism please.

Camlion: "I am neither idealistic nor naive. You, from what you say, are clearly both, Aleisterion."

If you say so. Smile

Anyway I never suggested that YOU were idealistic and naive, merely that the argument you were putting forward was, in my opinion.

Camlion: "Concerning Aleister Crowley as a perfect example of applied Thelema, he was not. Without him, we would be without the Seed of that growth, but his personal life was not an example of applied Thelema in full bloom. (Neither is my own, but I am not far off, IMO.)"

I think that in many ways he was indeed a great example of applied Thelema, as witnessed in the thoroughness of his understanding thereof evident in the commentaries on the Law of Thelema and elsewhere. He was flawed in some respects but I take his ideas rather seriously.

"Anarchists are born of frustration and confusion. Their philosophy is one of misinterpretation of the facts surrounding the conditions in which they find themselves 'victim.' They are mostly far too distracted to act in accord with true Will, too preoccupied in reacting irrationally to perceived injustice to effectively extricate themselves from it."

Well I'm no anarchist, but most often popular unrest certainly stems from an economic or political situation favors a particular class over another. Left-wing ideology --- while I don't agree with it in EVERY respect --- which encourages a fair distribution of wealth rather than favoring just the wealthy at the expense of the poor, is in my estimation preferable. One plan brings pain to the greater number of people, while the other merely irritates the top two-percent whose "pain" is no more than that of the loss of a few extra bucks.

Camlion: "Every man and every woman is a destined Master of true Will, potentially. The responsibility for realizing that potential rests with the individual, not with the government or the god. Yes, government should acknowledge and facilitate this process; that is, mostly, it should refrain from interfering with it. Dependency upon a government or a god is not freedom, it is the enemy of freedom, the opposite of independence."

Government should not institute policies that enable the rich to run rough-shod over those less well-off. Certainly restriction is the enemy of true will, but bear in mind that we can't allow for mundane laws and policies that would allow the more fortunate among us to take unfair advantages of the working class. I've known several truly noble individuals who live from paycheck to paycheck, and others whose only shelter was the open sky. True kings are masters of the will, in any given situation.

Patriarch156 - Sep 20, 2008 - 06:57 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

zardoz wrote: › Perhaps we are mistaken in assuming that Crowley meant a world-wide community where everyone would get along when he advertised ' the Secret of Universal Brotherhood?' Maybe he was describing a relation one enters into with scenario Universe when the secret gets realized? In which case, it has nothing at all to do with politics.

You make a good pont and as I read AC he does indeed propose that this is a truth meant for the elect who rule the many and the known. That being said, I have grave doubts that it is as undoubtable as A.C. said it was.

In the end it matters little to me, since I do regard it as the only True Religion, all other true religion being but manifestations of it. Whether or not comparative religion agrees with A.C. (or really the claims of comparative religion of his time) matters little to me.

Quote: › I see nothing wrong with Thelemites getting involved with politics. I would myself, except that, here in the US, politicians and intelligence seem mutually exclusive.

Of this I agree wholeheartedly with. In fact A.C. envisioned Thelema to be very much a political movement and I think part of what makes us so irrelevant in this day and age for many people is the fact that we as A.C. complained about focus on promulgating the technical teachings that informs the leaders of the Law, rather than the Law itself as A.C. wished us to do. To do so, would be as A.C. observes to Chales S. Jones be an political effort.

Camlion - Sep 21, 2008 - 01:18 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Ah, I see that you are an American caught up in the current 'election fever' here, Aleisterion. Believe me, parroting the canned rhetoric of either the Democrats or the Republicans will accomplish nothing of value to Thelema. My position is that the two-party political system into which the USA is presently locked will never produce an optimum environment in which the Law of Thelema will flourish. These are the two wings of the same bird, and that bird is not Horus. Smile

Aleisterion wrote: ›
Well I'm no anarchist, but most often popular unrest certainly stems from an economic or political situation favors a particular class over another. Left-wing ideology --- while I don't agree with it in EVERY respect --- which encourages a fair distribution of wealth rather than favoring just the wealthy at the expense of the poor, is in my estimation preferable.

Distribution of wealth? Let me be clear on this, using myself as the example, once more. (You seem to like broad abstract political generalities, while I prefer concrete examples based on personal experience.)

You would advocate that the fruits of my own personal financial success be seized by the government and redistributed to benefit the less successful among us?

Aleisterion - Sep 21, 2008 - 05:27 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

"My position is that the two-party political system into which the USA is presently locked will never produce an optimum environment in which the Law of Thelema will flourish. These are the two wings of the same bird, and that bird is not Horus."

I disagree. The GOP is controlled primarily by two forces, one secular (lobbyists for corporate interest, mainly oil interests) and the other Christian, which latter seeks to impose their restrictive views on everyone. The liberal left is completely opposite, and much more Thelemic in many respects.

"You would advocate that the fruits of my own personal financial success be seized by the government and redistributed to benefit the less successful among us?"

It's called taxation and the Bush tax plan favors the wealthy. The Obama tax plan would (and will) cut taxes on the lower and middle class while repealing the tax breaks on the wealthy, which follows more closely the economic policies of the Clinton admin back in the '90s. Anyway the current economic situation is obviously a dismal failure.

gurugeorge - Sep 21, 2008 - 01:59 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: ›
I disagree. The GOP is controlled primarily by two forces, one secular (lobbyists for corporate interest, mainly oil interests) and the other Christian, which latter seeks to impose their restrictive views on everyone. The liberal left is completely opposite, and much more Thelemic in many respects.

The "liberal" Left in the States is also supported by many business interests, as well as by other blocs, like the chattering classes, the academy, the entertainment industry. To business, it makes little difference what the colouration of politics is; so long as that politics proposes intervention in the economy for economic reasons, so far does business lobbying have a foot in the door with politics.

kizaen - Sep 21, 2008 - 03:42 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

93!

My initial intention with this post was a discussion about the place for politics in one s life, and how it can gain an importance that I believe is not sincere. It may become just another ground for creating and strengthening the idea of an ego. All this leading not to freedom. In such conflicts, losing and winning... the dogs of reason are happy, both results assert the idea of an imagined self. I'll find a more clear approach, and a better question.

But as this is a political discussion itself,

Camlion says:
"You would advocate that the fruits of my own personal financial success be seized by the government and redistributed to benefit the less successful among us?"

I think they already gave all that to AIG, 85.000 millions. And of course, this is another interesting week for hundreds of thousands millions reasons. Looks like if they didnt do it, we might all starve. The same goes for progressive taxes, which are... off topic. So the importance of such things, such conversations, is what I was referring to. Involvement, attachment, asserting oneself through reason.

I was just reading some old definitions of ego and ID from Freud, and he says:
"...The ego is that part of the id which has been modified by the direct influence of the external world ... The ego represents what may be called REASON and common sense, in contrast to the id, which contains the passions ... in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength, while the ego uses borrowed forces [Freud, The Ego and the Id (1923)]"

The capitals are mine, the text I copied from Wiki. I do not agree with the divisions but.... interesting

And also I got this fascinating description of the ID (again my caps):

"It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learnt from our study of the dream-work and of the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of this is of a negative character and can be described only as a CONTRAST to the EGO. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a CHAOS, a cauldron full of seething excitations ... It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organization, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle.

[Freud, New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis (1933)]"

93 93/93
Paul

Aleisterion - Sep 21, 2008 - 04:16 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Gurugeorge wrote: "The "liberal" Left in the States is also supported by many business interests..."

The Obama campaign, just for the record, has taken not one dime from corporate interests. He rose 66 million last month from grass-roots alone, compared to the McCain campaign which took in 40 million from lobbyists --- mainly from the oil companies.

Camlion - Sep 21, 2008 - 05:03 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: › "My position is that the two-party political system into which the USA is presently locked will never produce an optimum environment in which the Law of Thelema will flourish. These are the two wings of the same bird, and that bird is not Horus."

I disagree. The GOP is controlled primarily by two forces, one secular (lobbyists for corporate interest, mainly oil interests) and the other Christian, which latter seeks to impose their restrictive views on everyone. The liberal left is completely opposite, and much more Thelemic in many respects.

You are being 'played,' my friend. The two-party system in the USA is a game of distraction and diversion. After eight years under the imbecile George W. Bush, why is the race so very close? The Democrats should have it by a landslide, as if by default. They do not.

Only a unique hybrid composed of the Thelemic elements in each party, with the unThelemic elements extracted and discarded, would effectively be Thelemic at all. The lesser-of-two-evils game is one of preoccupying the children while the adults secure the status quo for another term.

Nataraj418 - Sep 21, 2008 - 06:00 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: › Glad we cleared up the "high rank" question, since your answer only confirmed my suspicions.

I used that "term" simply to indicate that I was not a Minerval or some other entry-level member (who would be a "member," but not qualified to speak on such matters).
"...confirmed my suspicions" is not an outright challenge of my honesty, but it does seem to subtly accuse me of prevarication, dishonesty, pretention and pretendership, spoofery and/or simply being a liar. In reply, I would like to state that I have been perfectly honest and do not intend to explain myself further.
However, if we were in one of those anarchy states, I bet your cute response would be completely different, especially if we were face to face instead of being separated by usernames, electronic transmission, and government regulations.
Did you ever see that western movie where the guy says, "Are you calling me a liar?" Then what happened?

Patriarch156 - Sep 21, 2008 - 06:22 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: › However, if we were in one of those anarchy states, I bet your cute response would be completely different, especially if we were face to face instead of being separated by usernames, electronic transmission, and government regulations. Did you ever see that western movie where the guy says, "Are you calling me a liar?" Then what happened?

I have never accused you of being a liar, nor have I ever advocated a state of anarchy or even wish to live in one. In fact anyone believing that Crowley's ideas for how to govern a community in accordance with the Law of Thelema consists of an anarchic state, is sadly misinformed about what his ideas of social governing were. You could of course construct such an argument with the basis of the holy books in and of themselves, but not with reference to Crowley's commentaries on them.

Aleisterion - Sep 21, 2008 - 06:32 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Camlion: "After eight years under the imbecile George W. Bush, why is the race so very close? The Democrats should have it by a landslide, as if by default. They do not."

Unfortunately --- and where I'm at I see it regularly --- there is still a segment of the population that is racist. I think that while this is the reason for the closeness of the political race, there isn't enough of it to derail a very good grass-roots machine.

Camlion: "Only a unique hybrid composed of the Thelemic elements in each party, with the unThelemic elements extracted and discarded, would effectively be Thelemic at all. The lesser-of-two-evils game is one of preoccupying the children while the adults secure the status quo for another term."

I don't think Obama is at all a status quo candidate. Anyway he's to the left of Ted Kennedy and that's saying something. I don't think we've seen a more Thelemically-minded political candidate. He isn't Aleister Crowley but compared to McCain or Palin (who believes her pastor's prayers got her into the position she's in) he's the next best thing. Anyway from the most practical point-of-view there is no better choice. Libertarianism has zero chance, and I believe that the GOP is running the country into the ground and, given its foreign policy stance, is putting the stability of other nations at risk as well...

Camlion - Sep 21, 2008 - 07:16 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: ›
I don't think Obama is at all a status quo candidate. Anyway he's to the left of Ted Kennedy and that's saying something. I don't think we've seen a more Thelemically-minded political candidate. He isn't Aleister Crowley but compared to McCain or Palin (who believes her pastor's prayers got her into the position she's in) he's the next best thing. Anyway from the most practical point-of-view there is no better choice. Libertarianism has zero chance, and I believe that the GOP is running the country into the ground and, given its foreign policy stance, is putting the stability of other nations at risk as well...

From that perspective, Thelema has "zero chance," as well, but that perspective is unacceptable to me. This is really rather simple, Thelema requires freedom of personal choice, which is advocated by the Democrats and denied by the Republicans; and Thelema requires personal self-reliance and independence, which is advocated by the Republicans and denied by the Democrats.

Freedom on the one side, independence on the other. We should demand both and settle for no less, as is required by Thelema. We should not be forced to settle for one at the expense of the other.

If a political system cannot accommodate Thelema, the political system has failed and must be adjusted so as to do so.

I am confident that the above will become perfectly clear once people eventually pull their heads out of the asses of the Democrats and Republicans. (The political parallels in other nations are obvious.)

Nataraj418 - Sep 21, 2008 - 08:12 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: › I have never accused you of being a liar.

No one said you did, but your phrase "confirmed my suspicions" implied it (as I so stated).

Patriarch156 wrote: › ...nor have I ever advocated a state of anarchy

No one said you did. However, I might have.

Patriarch156 wrote: › In fact anyone believing that Crowley's ideas...

Crowley wrote: "Is there a government? I'm agin it!" (Not a holy book, just The Book of Falsehoods).
Seriously, we all know that Crowley would not have actually advocated anarchy. After all he had too much invested in being the top dog, the Supreme and Holy King, etc.

A quick trip to Wikipedia gives us (the third) definition of Anarchy: "Absence or non-recognition of authority and order in any given sphere."
"In an anarchy, as defined by the [above definition], it is possible to have rules (laws); however, these must be agreed upon by the participants in the system, and not imposed from above by a ruler (leader, authority)."

Yeah, that's the one I'm advocating.

Just like A.C.'s revolt against Christianity was undoubtedly fostered by his ill-treatment at the hand of his early Christian mentors, so it was probably the strict upbringing of myself by my parents that causes me to have such strange notions.

Nataraj418 - Sep 21, 2008 - 08:21 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Quote: "After eight years under the imbecile George W. Bush, why is the race so very close? The Democrats should have it by a landslide, as if by default."

Yes, it's very interesting, isn't it? If I remember correctly, GWB (Not Great White Brotherhood) won his last election by just a few hundred votes.

Surely Big Business advocates and For the People advocates can't be split so closely, yet that's exactly what it appears to be.

And don't be too quick to imbecilize GWB. He is probably a rather intelligent tool for the forces that are working globally to level the playing field, resulting in the elimination of the middle class. "They" are amusingly called the Illuminati, which they are not (illumined), but they are the forces behind the current version of The New World Order.

lashtal - Sep 21, 2008 - 08:22 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Nataraj418 wrote: › Did you ever see that western movie where the guy says, "Are you calling me a liar?" Then what happened?

And just what the bloody hell is that remark supposed to mean?

Aleisterion - Sep 21, 2008 - 08:23 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Camlion wrote: "From that perspective, Thelema has "zero chance," as well, but that perspective is unacceptable to me. This is really rather simple, Thelema requires freedom of personal choice, which is advocated by the Democrats and denied by the Republicans; and Thelema requires personal self-reliance and independence, which is advocated by the Republicans and denied by the Democrats. Freedom on the one side, independence on the other. We should demand both and settle for no less, as is required by Thelema. We should not be forced to settle for one at the expense of the other."

Obama has spoken in favor of self-reliance and most importantly he has the best chance to restore U.S. credibility in the international community and ending the Cheney era of duplicity and deception. He has also spoken out against those who cling to organized religion, and though he claims to be a Christian publicly, he was raised an atheist, at one time was a diehard drug-user and got a first-row look at the harsh reality when he lived in New York and spent his nights in alleys. You aren't going to find an Aleister Crowley clone in American politics. But one party is, as it now stands, far nearer the mark than the other.

Camlion wrote: "If a political system cannot accommodate Thelema, the political system has failed and must be adjusted so as to do so."

Of course it has failed. No system based on mob-rule will ever work for us to perfection. But we work with the cards we're dealt, and from a purely Thelemic point-of-view --- in the U.S. at least --- I think the choice is fairly clear. You disagree and that's fine, I'm not here to coerce anybody, I'm simply sharing my perspective. Smile

zardoz - Sep 21, 2008 - 08:49 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

kizaen wrote: › 93!

My initial intention with this post was a discussion about the place for politics in one s life, and how it can gain an importance that I believe is not sincere. It may become just another ground for creating and strengthening the idea of an ego. All this leading not to freedom. In such conflicts, losing and winning... the dogs of reason are happy, both results assert the idea of an imagined self. I'll find a more clear approach, and a better question.

93 kizaen!

Yes, of course politics involves manifestation of ego. Nothing wrong with ego unless one becomes overly attached or identified with it. Ego serves as a convenient fiction in the samsaric world and can be very useful without spiritual detriment. Tibetan buddhists say that "all phenomena is illusion," so from the viewpoint of ultimate reality, everything is imaginary. However, most people don't have that point of view and those that do can usually only hold it very briefly, anyway. More enlightened individuals can, apparently, hold that point of view while simultaneously being fully immersed, with great interest, in the common everyday world of consensual reality. In the everyday world, reality is whatever you bump into. For a broader look at levels of consciousness, multiple realities and especially the subject of ego and politics I highly recommend looking into a book called "The Game of Life" by Timothy Leary.

Ultimate reality, ( what AC calls "IT" in the Book of Lies) and politics don't seem to have much common ground. The subject does recall a favorite joke which, for me, aptly describes this fiasco we call a presidential election: Q. What did one mirror say to the other?
A. It's all done with people

93 93/93

zardoz

gurugeorge - Sep 21, 2008 - 10:21 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: › Gurugeorge wrote: "The "liberal" Left in the States is also supported by many business interests..."

The Obama campaign, just for the record, has taken not one dime from corporate interests. He rose 66 million last month from grass-roots alone, compared to the McCain campaign which took in 40 million from lobbyists --- mainly from the oil companies.

That may be so, but if you look at the overall funding of the Left and Right in the US in recent years, the Left is actually supported by just as many rich as the Right, if not more, in fact. (The average assets of funders for the Left is something like 8 times higher).

Guilt? You've got to be kidding. It's because rich people and corporate interests are aware that they can manipulate "Liberals" just as well as Republicans - more so, in fact, because "liberalism" proposes, on the whole, slightly more interference in the economy than the Right (although it's also largely a myth that the Right is for less interference in the economy - perhaps marginally so, only to keep some voter types in the Big Tent).

Wherever interference in the economy is proposed, for whatever reason, there corporate interests will rub their hands with glee.

Aleisterion - Sep 21, 2008 - 10:40 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Gurugeorge wrote: "...if you look at the overall funding of the Left and Right in the US in recent years, the Left is actually supported by just as many rich as the Right, if not more, in fact. (The average assets of funders for the Left is something like 8 times higher)"

Obama has severed ties with corporate interests and will have nothing to do with lobbyists for same. I do like where he stands on just about every issue and he stands in stark contrast to McCain whose entire campaign staff consists of big-time lobbyists.

Gurugeorge: "Guilt? You've got to be kidding. It's because rich people and corporate interests are aware that they can manipulate "Liberals" just as well as Republicans - more so, in fact, because "liberalism" proposes, on the whole, slightly more interference in the economy than the Right (although it's also largely a myth that the Right is for less interference in the economy - perhaps marginally so, only to keep some voter types in the Big Tent)."

I never used the word guilt and am not quite sure what you're talking about there. as for "interference in the economy"...well, at this juncture I think it's pretty clear that non-interference (i.e. free reign for the big cheeses whose greed surpasses all things) has done more damage than a little regulation and oversight. Even McCain now says so --- which he can no longer avoid because our economy has taken such a dump owing to the lack of oversight --- even though for decades he (one of the Keating Five mind you) has prided himself on being a deregulator.

gurugeorge - Sep 22, 2008 - 08:39 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Aleisterion wrote: ›
I never used the word guilt and am not quite sure what you're talking about there. as for "interference in the economy"...well, at this juncture I think it's pretty clear that non-interference (i.e. free reign for the big cheeses whose greed surpasses all things) has done more damage than a little regulation and oversight.

No it's not clear at all, in fact quite the opposite is clear. The economy, including the financial sector, is still hugely regulated, and not all regulation is necessarily of the right kind, even when well intentioned. For instance, the roots of the present crisis lie in the government-legislated weakening of mortgage underwriting standards in the late 90s. Of course this was done with good intentions, but of course it backfired.

ianrons - Sep 22, 2008 - 08:45 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

What does this have to do with chess? erm... I mean Aleister Crowley.

Camlion - Sep 22, 2008 - 09:30 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

ianrons wrote: › What does this have to do with chess? erm... I mean Aleister Crowley.

I'm not certain, but I think that it means that the degree of self-reliance necessary for people to function effectively in accordance with Will was circumvented in order to force more people to appear to be prospering economically. A sort of artificial leveling of the playing field, where people bought homes on the odd assumption that their value would continue to increase forever, thus enabling the new owners to afford what they otherwise could not. (As if what goes up might somehow never come down!) So, out of quite sincere sympathy for the disadvantaged, economic realities were ignored. When the 'housing bubble' burst, the disadvantaged got screwed, and so did an entire national economy based on this BS.

Better to teach a man to fish than to give him free fish. Much more Thelemic, right Ian?. Wink

Aleisterion - Sep 22, 2008 - 10:26 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No politics

Camlion: "Better to teach a man to fish than to give him free fish. Much more Thelemic, right...?"

Indeed...not that Crowley was very self-reliant, however --- at least not in the second half of his life, after he had spent his fortune and relied on the generosity of others. Smile

I don't think he caught many fish on his own.

Self-reliance is important from a Thelemic perspective, no doubt. But there's much more to the Thelemic picture than just that one small issue. I think there are other vital issues, such as gay rights for example, and emancipation from religious-oriented litigation, restricting or at times even persecuting our kind. You wouldn't find much comfort in areas such as I live in, announcing to others your Thelemic bent, you'd meet with Christian social workers who would try to take away your kids.

lashtal - Sep 22, 2008 - 10:41 PM
Post subject: No politics

I enjoyed your post, Aleisterion, but...

Aleisterion wrote: › at times even persecuting our kind.

"Our kind"? But the Law is for All. No difference between any one thing and... Well, you know the quotes!

"Our kind" sort of implies a club or a group, defined by... Well, defined by what if what it's defined by includes "All"? I have friends who profess themselves to be Evangelical Christians but I still feel we have much in common in many areas. So ultimately "our kind" becomes "my kind" - and that's just the relationships we choose to develop or which just happen without our choosing.

The risk is of becoming convinced that we're in some sense a minority group - and in that direction lies paranoia and other distractions from the Work.

Aleisterion - Sep 22, 2008 - 10:54 PM
Post subject: RE: No politics

Yes it was somewhat of a poor choice of words wasn't it...

I'm from New York actually, and when I relocated here --- through a roundabout way --- I underwent quite a culture shock. I won't go into too much personal detail, but there is a segment of the population in the American south that maintains a certain hostility for all things not fundamentally Christian. I realize not all Christians are like that, of course, but nevertheless the hostility exists and can get pretty ugly. I am optimistic that in time limited perceptions will change for the better, and these sorts of problems will be rectified for the better.

Camlion - Sep 22, 2008 - 10:57 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No polit

Aleisterion wrote: › Camlion: "Better to teach a man to fish than to give him free fish. Much more Thelemic, right...?"

Indeed...not that Crowley was very self-reliant, however --- at least not in the second half of his life, after he had spent his fortune and relied on the generosity of others. Smile

Hello again, Aleisterion,

As I wrote earlier, I do not see Crowley's personal life as an ideal example of Thelema in practice. In some areas, yes, in others, no. I think it is rather silly that you continue referencing Crowley's life as if we should all follow his example to the letter without question. Didn't he teach us better than that?

Glad that we agree about self-reliance.

I am extremely pro-personal choice on every single issue that I can think of. One day with me would kill most conservative Republicans, literally. Ditto with my being anti-slave god. I blame most of the world's ills on that hideous imaginary creature. So, you are preaching to the choir on those issues. I'm a social liberal and an enlightened atheist, as in 'there is no god but Man.' Smile

As for you living among the 'slaves,' yes, you will have to take great care with that. They are easily frightened by free men and women and may do us harm if they can.

lashtal - Sep 22, 2008 - 11:04 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No polit

Camlion wrote: › I think it is rather silly that you continue referencing Crowley's life as if we should all follow his example to the letter without question. Didn't he teach us better than that?

LOL! You couldn't make that statement up...

Camlion - Sep 22, 2008 - 11:19 PM
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No polit

lashtal wrote: ›

Camlion wrote: › I think it is rather silly that you continue referencing Crowley's life as if we should all follow his example to the letter without question. Didn't he teach us better than that?

LOL! You couldn't make that statement up...

Aleisterion - Sep 22, 2008 - 11:52 PM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: No p

Camlion wrote: "I think it is rather silly that you continue referencing Crowley's life as if we should all follow his example to the letter without question. Didn't he teach us better than that?"

Yes I must've failed Crowley class huh... Laughing

gurugeorge - Sep 23, 2008 - 08:26 PM
Post subject:

My 2c is that politics is important to Thelema, politics have always been intertwined with religion, and mysticism has always been intertwined with a somewhat "underground" political consciousness - somewhat against the mainstream, not necessarily in total opposition, but in some kind of synergy.

Erwin, who used to frequent these boards used to say that there is no such thing as Thelemic politics. In the sense that there will never be such a thing as a "thelemic political party" (Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos!), that's true. But in a sense, the quest for freedom in politics is and always has been in the same direction as Thelema - one might say that liberalism (not necesarily US style "liberalism", which is really more like socialism, but good, old fashioned "live and let live" liberalism) in politics is the Thelemic element in politics.

That is to say, there's lots of room for healthy disagreement between rational people about what should or shouldn't be done about this or that; but so long as it's done with a background sense of classical liberalism, a background sense that "freedom is the mother, not the daughter, of social order", then it doesn't really matter whether you're "conservative", "liberal", "socialist", "capitalist" or whatever, the politics, the to-and-fro between ideas, will be essentially Thelemic.

Camlion - Sep 23, 2008 - 09:26 PM
Post subject:

gurugeorge wrote: ›
Erwin, who used to frequent these boards used to say that there is no such thing as Thelemic politics. In the sense that there will never be such a thing as a "thelemic political party" (Apo Pantos Kakodaimonos!), that's true.

Nice post, gurugeorge, but with the lack of choice offered by the two-party system locked in to the USA, I wouldn't preclude any possible solutions or alternatives.

Camlion - Sep 29, 2008 - 06:49 PM
Post subject: Re: No politics

Patriarch156 wrote: ›

93 Patriarch156,

Obviously, Crowley was relying upon the idea that a 'True Eucharist' would succeed where an imaginary or otherwise empty one would fail. Smile

Regardless, for the most practical and immediate of purposes, I think that if each individual can know and do their true Will, true Universal Brotherhood will take care of itself.

faustian - Sep 29, 2008 - 08:40 PM
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The funny thing about this discussion is that Aleister Crowley – despite his sexual eccentricities and recreational drug use – considered himself to be politically conservative (a Tory I believe). He was also dead set against the practice of abortion; a subject on which he was very vocal.

I wonder how he would lean today – Obama or McCain? Was he an old style limited government Republican, or more of the liberal Democrat? Clearly Crowley hated the very idea of the welfare state and the subsequent psychic enslavement it imposed on the people it purported to help.

I can’t help but think that he would lean towards Obama – for no other reason than his looks

alysa - Sep 29, 2008 - 11:34 PM
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Crowley to my opinion was bot Tory-minded and also conservative in the American way, he certainly was himself very much against the idea of abortion. Don't know anything about the ideas of Mr.Obama in respect to abortion, I mean his real ideas. I think nowadays Crowley should be having both a problem with Obama as well as with Mc.Cain. I think Crowley nowadays should annoy himself with the way the Republicans are trying to solve or not to solve the now ongoing economic crisis of the world.

kidneyhawk - Sep 30, 2008 - 12:57 AM
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Camlion-

Whereas we are mostly in agreement that

Quote: ›
if each individual can know and do their true Will, true Universal Brotherhood will take care of itself.

I think its worth considering for a moment the notion that

Quote: ›
the idea that a 'True Eucharist' would succeed where an imaginary or otherwise empty one would fail.

O.T.O. seems to be the primary political vehicle of Crowleyan Thelema, with its long term visions and goals of societal reform. It was envisioned as such by Crowley when alive and the Body commonly referred to as the "Caliphate" seems to most ardently hold to these ideals of establishing a new form of Government on the planet. This is not to imply that OTO, Inc, being a "political vehicle," functions SOLEY on those grounds, nor is it to insinuate any present party sympathies within that body. I'm simply recognizing that OTO, Inc. is both a governmental body and one which carries the vision and agenda of establishing a Thelemic Government on a large scale.

The Gnostic Mass is the primary ritual of this organization and therein we presumably find our

Quote: ›
'True Eucharist'

Would it be a fair statement to say that the celebration of such is of political import to the extent that it recognizes an unrepressed Will (which is motivated by subconscious and sexual forces) and therefore the means of developing

Quote: ›
true Universal Brotherhood

based on that Will (exerting the same widespread influence on the psychology of the "mass mind" as the Catholic Liturgy, "mortifying the flesh," has in the last 2000 years?)

We certainly could, as suggested above, read the Manifesto Lingo re: Universal Brotherhood as pertaining to mystic realizations but that would seem more in accord with AA ideas. I believe Patriarch, above, indicated that the "goal" was something with definite connotations in the realm of human society and government, whether tenable or not. As those same documents DO refer to a "Secret" held by the Order (and one which has yet to produce the "Perfect Government" but purports to possess this power), I think it might be worthwhile to consider HOW Crowley envisioned this "Secret" in relation to resolving the miasma of present politcal problems.

Do members here see it as Neo-Rosicrucian pipe dream or something as relevant to our present affairs as Crowley had felt during his own day?

OKontrair - Sep 30, 2008 - 01:15 AM
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I disagree with everyone.

Crowley would have no vote in the US and I can find no indication that he used his vote in Britain. I get the impression though that Americans vote for their politicians whereas the British tend to vote against whoever seems to them currently least awful. The trouble with democracy is that they only give you one brick but there is more than one window.

Rwanda and Cambodia were not anarchies but tyrannies. There are several examples of successful non government. During the Chinese civil war (192something - 1949) there were huge areas of no interest to either side where life went along just fine, including education by unpaid (but fed) volunteers. In present day China there is a Standing Committee for the Abolition of Senseless restrictions.

There must be a thousand better ways of doing things than the few we use. The Theban law-maker Solon had some good ideas as well as a sense of humour. Hamurabi decreed that liars be thrown into the Tigris. America is probably the state that most disapproves of communism but loves its fire brigade - but fire brigades wherever they occur are essentially collectivist. It is entirely possible for a population to jointly hire managers for big projects.

As for 'the economy' - it's just a phantasm. Governments ask the public to 'make sacrifices' for the good of the economy! That being the case 'the economy' is your enemy. Why not let inflation rip roar away for a few years and it will clear your debts!

Stuart X (Prophet in His Own Country) has some good stuff to say which is still relevant. As for Zuangzi - my favourite quote by him is "I wish I had a beak three feet long".

We will only ever get a choice between a maniac or a lunatic. My advice - give the lunatic a chance and hope he/she is negligent.

Was someone further up the page fishing about for some sort of 'what should a Thelemite do' advice? Block vote eh? There's progress. Either What Thou Wilt or use a pin.

OK

priestofal - Sep 30, 2008 - 06:08 AM
Post subject:

And now for a slight (and tenuously relevant -- Sorry, Paul!) musical break to our regularly scheduled Thelemic 'No Politics' forum.

(Sung to the tune of "It's My Party").

Only I'd know where this thingy has gone
If done by my own hand
Why should I care who would care
When it's God who'll understand

It's my body I'll abort if I want to
'Bort if I want to, 'bort if I want to
You just might too if it happened to you

I loved that man, who put me in a whirl
And promised he'd always love
But now that he's torn my heart
Maybe I should look above

It's his baby, to support if I say to
S'port if I say to, s'port if I say to
You might say too if it happened to you

[Lead Break]

The Judge looks down with his almighty frown
And says, "Honey, the facts!
Your "thingy" or it's his too --
In which case, you can ask!"

But it's my thingy and his if I say so
'Bort if I want to, S'port if I say so
You'd be in two if it happened to you!

Please -- excuse me -- really! -- let us resist.

Camlion - Sep 30, 2008 - 03:37 PM
Post subject:

kidneyhawk wrote: › Camlion-

Whereas we are mostly in agreement that

Quote: ›
if each individual can know and do their true Will, true Universal Brotherhood will take care of itself.

I think its worth consid