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Thelema - What about animals?
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 28, 2008 - 01:50 PM
Post subject: What about animals?
It looks like my cat is about to die, and i wanted to know (since i didn't find any passages) what Thelema says about animals or what happens to them in death?
Are animals stars too?
Thanks in advance,
ceQ
93 93/93
Poelzig - Dec 28, 2008 - 02:36 PM
Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Most of the old writers on Magic, Crowley, Fortune, etc. tend to underestimate animals, regarding them as elementals at best.
I do not concur with this assessment. Especially not in the case of cats, a species with whom I have had too many significant relations to dismiss the depth and potency of their individual being and individual characters. There have been enough "coincidences" with them in my life to suspect something along the lines of reincarnation, and more than enough reason to credit them with occult powers of action, autonomy, and intervention. The old traditions and folklore of "familiars" contain more truth than is given credit in the genre of western ceremonial magic, including by Crowley.
My condolences for the loss of your feline companion. He/she will be with you always, so long as you are bound in love. Pay close attention to your dreams, you will find your companion has not left you and will show up at crucial moments with direction and information, and occasionally warning. Cats are powerful creatures. They deserve far more credit as individual "stars" than the average "people" we meet and interact with routinely.
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 28, 2008 - 02:46 PM
Post subject: RE: What about animals?
I hoped to hear something like that, thank you 
I totally agree you in the fact that cats have totaly individual characters.
Cats are totally underestimated. Thinking of the ancient Egypt, cats were considered sacred and respected beasts.
Dying stars shine even brighter!
I don't know where i picked that one up, or if i made it up subconsciously.
93 93/93
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 28, 2008 - 04:40 PM
Post subject: RE: What about animals?
since i can't edit:
sorry for my bad english, I'm from Germany
any other wise words for me, i'd appreciate it.
sonofthestar - Dec 28, 2008 - 08:34 PM
Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
PropriaDeus93
I had a cat of 13 years that was an orange tabby that looked just like Morris! He ended up with Feline Leukemia, and had to be put to sleep.
About three months later, whilst on the way home, three small kittens about a month old were sitting in a row in front of someone's house.
I told them hello, and two ran underneath the house. One, all black---commenced to follow me home. I must have picked him up five times and put him back in front of the house, but no sooner than I made it a number of steps towards my house, he was trailing me.
I picked the little one up, tucked him under my arm and brought him home!
The moment he entered the door, he ran through the front room, into the kitchen--and right into the litter box my orange tabby used to use.
I had cleaned it, and filled it with fresh litter for just such an occasion!
He knew right where to find it.
Then, he ran into the front room, climbed on the sofa,
and then did hop onto the old chrome Aquarium,--sat on the lid, and proceeded to relax--just as the old tabby used to do. He seemed to know exactly where everything was.
Sometimes, I would say to him, as he sat at my foot
--do you remember that last day? ....and he would stand up and stretch out his front legs--placing his paws on my knee, looking up
---just as my old orange tabby had.
And that's just an introductory phase of his story!
Love is the law, love under will.
idolater718 - Dec 29, 2008 - 05:12 AM
Post subject: RE: What about animals?
I would always recite to myself "kill and torture, spare not, be upon them" while I shot up animals. The Book of the Law did not elaborate upon their death, but the mess was elaborative and spiritual enough for me.
Also, son of the star, you need to stop stealing peoples' pets. Just because Liber Al doesn't say anything about robbery, it doesn't mean it's okay you rogue.
Poelzig - Dec 29, 2008 - 05:47 AM
Post subject: Re: RE: What about animals?
idolater718 wrote: › I would always recite to myself "kill and torture, spare not, be upon them" while I shot up animals. The Book of the Law did not elaborate upon their death, but the mess was elaborative and spiritual enough for me.
You are a living argument for summary euthanasia.
kidneyhawk - Dec 29, 2008 - 06:04 AM
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: What about animals?
Quote: ›
My condolences for the loss of your feline companion. He/she will be with you always, so long as you are bound in love. Pay close attention to your dreams, you will find your companion has not left you and will show up at crucial moments with direction and information, and occasionally warning. Cats are powerful creatures. They deserve far more credit as individual "stars" than the average "people" we meet and interact with routinely.
Wholly agree. The feline I most loved never ceases to appear in my dreams. This isn't some new age flakery...I'm a Dad and my cat wasn't some "only child" upon whom I projected my parental feelings. Still, she returns. And although I also feel pangs of loss, there is joy.
I've posted here many times about "extraterrestrial" connections and such. We also forge "sub-human" connections which are not to be understood as any sort of inferior state.
I, too, am sorry for the difficult situation with your friend. The love you give is a holy thing. And personally I feel its power carries on beyond the realm of appearances.
Thelema is a dynamic, living thing. It's about life, even as it expresses itself in growth, change and death.
Quote: ›
Are animals stars too?
Hell, yes.
93,
Kyle
przm28 - Dec 29, 2008 - 07:37 AM
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My dog Trinity is one badass pit. She is one of my dearest friends sometimes i seem to commune with her on telekinesis state. My mother is very sick with cancer, im gone alot and trinity lays with her and literally vibrates, almost like shes meditating. Makes my mom feel better. I stumbled across her in a very weird story also. She reminds me of one of my friends that has passed, sometimes seems to have a similar soul. She also sleeps with me and on more than one occasion has protected me from some "outside" threats while in the astral. I also as a side-note try to not bring my human intentions/emotions onto my pets. I think sometimes people tend to be looking for somthing that is not there in there pets. I have had few cats and 6 dogs since my exprience here and trinity is the only pet that has acted how she does. It is really satisfying and neat thing for me to exprience. As far as what happens to our pets, i guess our spines are vertical and there's is horizontal.
Is god to live in a dog?
no pun intended.
cheerz
przm28 - Dec 29, 2008 - 07:41 AM
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And i forgot enjoy your friend for remaining time here. Be happy! Your energy together is eternal. l o v z
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:41 AM
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Thank you for your replies, they were really touching and gave me some solace.
I loved your story SonOfTheStar, i hope i experience something similar.
Quote: ›
The love you give is a holy thing. And personally I feel its power carries on beyond the realm of appearances.
Nicely said, and so true!
Cuvalwen - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
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I believe that the presence of a personality- an individual identity- indicates that the creature in question is more than just a biological machine for making more creatures. It operates on a level other than just survival and reproduction, it is conscious of the world around it and of other entities. It can identify patterns and be aware of what is considered acceptable and not acceptable.
My annoyingly intelligent Jack Russels from when I was little certainly came under that heading, and even my mind-numbingly stupid cat can tell when he's about to get medicated, and knows that not using the litter tray makes me cross.
Every cat or dog that I've met has its own personality- I wish I could say the same for all humans.
So basically- yes, animals can be stars. Cats and dogs certainly are. I haven't met enough reptiles to reach a conclusion about them.
And- cats ONLY do their will. They're possibly the most Thelemic creatures on the planet!
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
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2 pictures i took yesterday of my fellow beast which i find pretty good shots
Poelzig - Dec 29, 2008 - 12:11 PM
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What a beautiful cat!
S/He looks healthy, may I ask what is wrong?
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 01:25 PM
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It's a He
well he stopped eating for like 5 days, doesn't move much, is only laying around at the same spot the whole day etc...
lol, as i am writing this my mom came in and told me she took him to the vet earlier today (couldn't go earlier cuz of feasts & weekend),
and it's not as bad as i expected.
That poor thing has a toothache and is getting operated. We can pick him up later today
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 01:51 PM
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I kind of didn't recognize your post till now Cuvalwen,
Your post could fit into some book, totally agree with it!
When i just place my cat inside it's "travel cage" (correct word?), and place it inside my car,
he already knows that something is about to happen, mostly going to the vet, which he hates.
His awareness of the upcoming situation totally makes him, and I'm sure other cats act the same way, an
individual beeing and not an "biological machine for making more creatures" (had to quote that ).
In my eyes cats are the living creatures with kind of the most unique and individual personality of all.
Poelzig - Dec 29, 2008 - 02:46 PM
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Your cat stopped eating for five days and you didn't take him to the vet?
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 03:58 PM
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i couldn't, like I explained...
first there were feasts and all shit was closed, and then the weekend came...
Walterfive - Dec 29, 2008 - 04:23 PM
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Ah, we are touching on Animal reincarnation, their presence in the Astral, the survival of their spirits after death. To me, many animals are remarkable. Parrots, for example, are quite a different kind of intelligence, the very bright ones like Macaws and Greys and some Cockatoos are very different from cats & dogs and the like.
My own best familiar was a rescue Boxer, a real bully-boy who I named Worf, after the Klingon-- he was every bit as martial, every bit as much of a rockhead, and head of security. He was wild when I got him, spent the first two years of his life tied to something, probably a tree; a latino appearantly used to beat him with a stick. He went crazy when he saw latinos, which was good for me in the neighborhood I lived in. I trained that dawg to voice and hand gestures, worked every day with him for years. Fiercely protective of his land and his pack. I loved him. He was a genuine mother-in-law biter, too!
My ex-wife claimed he had three heads on the Astral plane; one viscious, one goofy and one a shining unformed orb. She claimed he would follow her and follow command.
We had to put him down seven years ago, it was the cancer; it had gotten so big it was starting to block his windpipe. I was quite suprised when after we had him put down his spirit jumped up off the table and rushed for the vet's door to get out to the car. We had him creamated, and placed his ashes under a 4-foot long statue of a Hell Hound in the front yard. But he came home with us the day he died, and still runs with the pack of dogs my ex-wife keeps. He was 12 years old, the best dog I've ever owned.
My current cat haunted the house for at least a year and half before my stepson brought him home, or the ghost-cat that haunted my house walked-in to the cat my stepson brought home; the cat acts just like the ghost. Strange that.
Poelzig - Dec 29, 2008 - 04:23 PM
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How do "feasts" prevent you from taking your cat to the vet?
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 04:28 PM
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is it feasts or holiday? i don't know the right vocabulary...
well to make it short: the vet was closed, and it can happen that a cat eats nothing for 2 or more days!
Mine usually does that when it's spring or summer, cuz he hunts down birds or mice...
So we couldn't know what is wrong, you can't see if a cat has toothache...
TreeDragon7 - Dec 29, 2008 - 04:40 PM
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maybe not AC, but remember that Austin Osman Spare had alot of belief in the spirits of animals. me myself have seen the proof : ghosts of dogs, owls showing up in peculiar places at daytime, and cats following in line at mass and rituals. Theres difinetely an intelligence there. And animals are just as much biological machines as we are. So whats the difference ? I just dont know
Walterfive - Dec 29, 2008 - 05:07 PM
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I don't know either, TreeDragon. Part of the matter is wether one believes in transmigration of the soul from animals to people and vice-versa. I'm not convinced of this phenomena; I'm not sure animal spirits get to migrate to people...
Los - Dec 29, 2008 - 09:20 PM
Post subject:
93
First things first -- your cat is a beautiful creature. I'm glad it's not seriously ill, and I wish it a long and healthy life.
Second of all: a few questions for the group. What constitutes being a "star," anyway? Do all animals qualify as stars or just the cute ones that we have domesticated? What about insects? Lice? The crabs? Amoebae? What about carbon atoms?
93, 93/93
OKontrair - Dec 29, 2008 - 09:32 PM
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Yeah! Let's hear it for the mosquito and the plague rat.
OK
MichaelStaley - Dec 29, 2008 - 10:49 PM
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Los wrote: › What constitutes being a "star," anyway? Do all animals qualify as stars or just the cute ones that we have domesticated? What about insects? Lice? The crabs? Amoebae? What about carbon atoms?
Good question. It's my view that we are a continuum, with division into separate entities being apparent rather than real. The phrase "every man and every woman is a star" has never really resonated with me, were I to be bitingly honest. The star is a facet of the galaxy, and the galaxy a facet of the universe.
Best wishes,
Michael.
Los - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:06 PM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › It's my view that we are a continuum, with division into separate entities being apparent rather than real.
Very nicely said. However, that famous line about stars does resonate with me -- as a metaphor. Each star has its natural orbit, just as each of us has a natural course of action (illusory though our separateness may be). Call it the Tao, or the will, or whatever.
But together, we're all one Universe, the Body of Nuit. Or, rather, none.
So I suppose the metaphor could be applied to anything, but it works best with humans.
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:30 PM
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My interpretation of the metaphor "star" is just that every star has it's own way in the galaxy, it is by itself something wonderful, it sends out light and is seen by others.
And so are us living creatures, we have to find our way through the galaxy of life, shine / touch / are seen by others.
Every living creatures is something special and has to be respected, otherwise we collide.
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life.
And yes it's easier for us to adapt the metaphor of the star to creatures with a personality, most likely humans.
amiright?
Poelzig - Dec 29, 2008 - 11:47 PM
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I would say if humans can be considered "stars" then lice and plague rats have a fair shot.
zardoz - Dec 30, 2008 - 01:05 AM
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I see the line "every man and every woman is a star" as signifying a potential quality in humans mostly unrealized. It has to do with radiance of a particular kind. Speaking of metaphors, it may be helpful to read up on the tarot atu, The Star, from the book of Thoth. I have no idea if any animals can realize this but do believe that all creatures possess a spark of the divine fire.
Walterfive - Dec 30, 2008 - 01:49 PM
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PropriaDeus93 wrote: ›
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life.
amiright?
This has to do with Dharma, and it is my opinion that as Magicians and Illumini we tear all of that down when we rend the Veil of Paroketh. For those of the K.E.W. the symbology is obvious.
Boris - Dec 30, 2008 - 01:55 PM
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PropriaDeus93 wrote: ›
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life
Havent your guru taught you to coincide"free will" with "destiny" yet?
MichaelStaley - Dec 30, 2008 - 02:42 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › For those of the K.E.W. the symbology is obvious.
Now you'll have everybody queuing for the K.E.W., won't you . . .
Walterfive - Dec 30, 2008 - 03:31 PM
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More likely I'll have them pulling out their PDF's of Fernee's "Rituals & Sex Magick of the O.T.O"...
*sigh*...
lashtal - Dec 30, 2008 - 04:01 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › More likely I'll have them pulling out their PDF's of Fernee's "Rituals & Sex Magick of the O.T.O"...
Naylor, not Fernee, surely?
Walterfive - Dec 30, 2008 - 04:15 PM
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Ooops, my bad. Fernee was the publisher or distributor or something, IIRC.
lashtal - Dec 30, 2008 - 07:05 PM
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He stocked it in his bookshop.
PropriaDeus93 - Dec 31, 2008 - 01:41 PM
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@Boris:
I don't have one, that's kind of one of the reasons why I registered myself here.
I don't know any other people around here interested in Thelema.
sonofthestar - Jan 01, 2009 - 06:45 AM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
So far as animals go, and coming from an "animal loving fanatic" such as myself---this is hard for me to write, but I must---
I cannot say that they are "Stars" in any such way as Men and Women are.
Would this mean that they deserve any less respect, protection, caring for---
and Stewardship from Us? No! It means no such thing.
Nor does "not being Stars"---such as Man, and Women is, make them any less
unique, grand, and "spiritually" special or significant.
There are those of them, that are so Magickal, and others so evolved---
to levels of beauty, feeling,
understanding---and yes--Emotion----that they surpass many members of our fellow species lacking for such treasures, as feeling, understanding, and emotion,
--which supposedly makes for "higher" being.
Do they have the potential, and possibility of becoming---through
reincarnation---Men and Women---some day? Who can say no, and prove it?
Who can say yes, and prove it? We have the right to think what we will concerning these possibilities.
And who is to say--if they believe in reincarnation, or have experienced it for themselves,
that not being Stars--in the way Men and Women are,
--prevents certain special animals from "returning"
or reincarnating?
How would they do it? Through Love of course!
That would be the fuel to bring them home again.
Such love, being Sufficient material of the mental, physical, and spiritual kind---generated on the Earth Plane whilst they are with us--
--to guarantee re-manifestation of those prior generating origins of such love:
be it from their own singular efforts---or "willed" through our own.
So not Stars, as Liber AL reveals, or Liber OZ describes Man and Woman:
But nevertheless, manifested from that same source
of Light, Life, Liberty, and Love
as Those Starry Selves---who Will, and wish them the best;
doing all in our endeavored power to guarantee their survival on Earth,
and their right to Live,
Free from the abuse and suffering imposed upon them
by those who should know better.
Love is the law, love under will.
Poelzig - Jan 01, 2009 - 12:44 PM
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Regarding humans as some kind of special "spiritual" presence on earth, some how better than other animals or above nature, yet another instance of Crowley being a replay of the desert plague religions, and yet another reason why I'll never be a "Thelemite."
MichaelStaley - Jan 01, 2009 - 02:00 PM
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › So far as animals go, and coming from an "animal loving fanatic" such as myself---this is hard for me to write, but I must--- I cannot say that they are "Stars" in any such way as Men and Women are.
I'm with Poelzig on this one. As far as I am concerned, human beings are amongst a myriad forms through which the life-force manifests; "all this is Brahma". I don't think that the sentence "Every man and every woman is a star" precludes the starry nature being more widespread.
Best wishes,
Michael.
sonofthestar - Jan 01, 2009 - 05:11 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Happy new year to all!
Poelzig and Michael,
At this present time, the main organ of our experiencing---that which informs us---through our living selves, about life--
--are humanoid forms--that which we deem to call homosapiens, or Man, meaning man and woman.
It is through certain "advantages"---as proven by our "science" that we
as "humans" have come to bring forth the comfort of civilizations----and all that civilization entails---such as music, art, literature, medical cures, and protection from the harsher aspects of nature.
We have not as a species, mastered ourselves---yet.
That is where the path of initiation comes in, for those who have the vision to
see the potential in "Man".
The ills we suffer, are there-- for this fact that we have come so far; but having not yet as a species mastered itself---have so far-- still to go.
We have encountered individual men and women at their best, and the fruit of their magick as fully potentialized human beings---but we have yet to see humankind itself
reach this stage.
Some from amongst our species, saw the Gold that man is destined to become, rather than the base metal which the slave god religions proclaim he is forever damned to be---unless he sacrifices the very core of self that makes for man:
his will.
Those having worked for the welfare of the human species, from within the framework of the slave gods--have done so imperfectly.
Those having worked for "our" welfare from outside such faulty framework,
have fared better for us.
One kind offers the human species perpetual ignorance and slavery;
The other--such as Thelema, offers freedom from all which would enslave it.
It is this animal called man, which we are---from which we work The Great Work---by which we realize our divinity, but always unto Nuit!
We shall rectify the wrongs inherent as the side effect of our striving:
As human beings--we shall master ourselves----however long it must take us;
but the rewards of that mastering, will indeed be the blessing unto all.
As it is proclaimed in Liber VII
O all ye toads and cats, rejoice! Ye slimy things, come
hither!
Dance, dance to the Lord our God!
He is he! He is he! He is he!
Love is the law, love under will.
zardoz - Jan 01, 2009 - 07:00 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › Regarding humans as some kind of special "spiritual" presence on earth, some how better than other animals or above nature, yet another instance of Crowley being a replay of the desert plague religions, and yet another reason why I'll never be a "Thelemite."
Where does Crowley say or imply this?
Poelzig - Jan 01, 2009 - 07:57 PM
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zardoz wrote: ›
Where does Crowley say or imply this?
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/chap11.html
The second method sounds very easy and amusing. You take some organism already existing, which happens to be suitable to your purpose. You drive out the magical being which inhabits it, and take possession. To do this by force is neither easy nor justifiable, because the magical being of the other was incarnated in accordance with its Will. And "... thou hast no right but to do thy will." One should hardly strain this sentence to make one's own will include the will to upset somebody else's will!
Yet it might happen that the Will of the other being was to invite the Magician to indwell its instrument.
Moreover, it is extremely difficult thus to expatriate another magical being; for though, unless it is a complete microcosm like a human being, it cannot be called a star, it is a little bit of a star, and part of the body of Nuit.
But there is no call for all this frightfulness. There is no need to knock the girl down, unless she refuses to do what you want, and she will always comply if you say a few nice things to her.
Especially on the subject of the Wand or the Disk.
You can always use the body inhabited by an elemental, such as an eagle, hare, wolf, or any convenient animal, by making a very simple compact. You take over the responsibility for the animal, thus building it up into your own magical hierarchy. This represents a tremendous gain to the animal.
This is the magical aspect of eating animal food, and its justification, or rather the reconciliation of the apparent contradiction between the carnivorous and humanitarian elements in the nature of "Homo Sapiens".
It completely fulfils its ambition by an alliance of this extremely intimate sort with a Star. The magician, on the other hand, is able to transform and retransform himself in a thousand ways by accepting a retinue of such adherents. In this way the projection of the "astral" or Body of Light may be made absolutely tangible and practical. At the same time, the magician must realise that in undertaking the Karma of any elemental, he is assuming a very serious responsibility. The bond which unites him with that elemental is love; and, though it is only a small part of the outfit of a magician, it is the whole of the outfit of the elemental. He will, therefore, suffer intensely in case of any error or misfortune occurring to his protegee. This feeling is rather peculiar. It is quite instinctive with the best men. They hear of the destruction of a city of a few thousand inhabitants with entire callousness, but then they hear of a dog having hurt its paw, they feel Weltschmertz acutely.
Poelzig - Jan 01, 2009 - 08:04 PM
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While this is not Crowley, it is another particularly lame "thelemic" apologetic for animal sacrifice:
http://www.hermetic.com/casa_del_campo/ ... rifice.pdf
Los - Jan 02, 2009 - 10:48 AM
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93, Poelzig,
Interesting Crowley passage you've posted -- made even more so by the amusing piece of misogyny he slipped in there. My, it's almost as if the old guy wants us to dislike him so that we don't make silly mistakes like thinking he's infallible or the ultimate authority on Thelema or anything like that....
It should be noted that just because Crowley says something, it doesn't mean that one has to accept it to be a Thelemite. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you aren't questioning things Crowley says, you are probably not a Thelemite (or at least not a very good one).
Keep in mind that Crowley is operating out of a tradition that sees man as the "measure of all things," the microcosm in a way that nothing else in nature is. You're right that this view considers humans a "special 'spiritual' presence on the earth," and while it might be useful (or even necessary) for us to think like this from time to time, it may not fit with our current understanding of the universe. Again, I would consider the "microcosm" idea, like the "star" image, to be a metaphor that is appropriate in some contexts, but does not need to be taken as a metaphysical fact (an oxymoron if ever there was one).
Speaking of which, if this topic is merely a discussion of "do all dogs go to heaven?" (or cats, as it were), I would submit that metaphysics is the real marker of a "desert plague religion" (nice phrase!). I think it would be a mistake to take the poetic image of the star and try to map it onto dubious metaphysical ideas like "the soul." No one knows what happens after we die, but there's no actual evidence of a spirit or soul separate from the material world (and quite a bit to suggest that consciousness is tied to brain chemistry). Metaphysical speculations are useless.
93, 93/93
P.S. I apologize for being too tired to think of an appropriate joke that incorporates "There is death for the dogs." : P
Poelzig - Jan 02, 2009 - 11:39 AM
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I agree on all points, but will reiterate what I've said here before: I respect Crowley as a writer on magic, to a large degree, but as a "religious figure" not very much at all. Much of his writing on magic is gold. Most of the Thelema/Aiwass revelation nonsense is an albatross, in my opinion. Magical working of personal relevance to AC? Yes. Of universal religious significance? No. Interesting figure in the history of magic and underground culture? Yes. My central source for a religioius/philosophical worldview? No.
That being said, I have enough "appriciation" for the old coot to participated in an "appreciation society" discussion forum. But I will call his shortcomings, and especially those of his followers, as I see them, as they are many and frequent. 
Poelzig - Jan 02, 2009 - 12:29 PM
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Also, Crowley's occasional misogyny was probably as sincere as his occasional racism and anti-semtism, which is more warranted and less offensive to me than his views and mistreatment of animals.
Walterfive - Jan 02, 2009 - 03:43 PM
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I agree, Crowley's misogyny was sincere, so was his racism and anti-semitism. As sincere as any other Victorian Englishman's. He was a product of his times and culture and class. He tried, and was able to overcome much of his cultural conditioning, but he certainly didn't achieve it on these points.
Certainly there are still ugly things to be found ex cathedra in Class A A.'.A.'. works such as "Liber Aleph", but they are nowhere to be found in the Initiatory Rituals of the O.T.O.; This is why I tell my students that it is essential for Thelemites to always try to differentiate between Uncle Al and Perdurabo and To Mega Therion and Baphomet, and to never mistake the Man for the Office he holds, or the seat is speaking from. Uncle Al as Baphomet (for example) wears a rather different hat than Uncle Al as To Mega Therion.
lashtal - Jan 02, 2009 - 03:52 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › Crowley's occasional misogyny was probably as sincere as his occasional racism and anti-semtism, which is more warranted and less offensive to me than his views and mistreatment of animals.
If I read this correctly, your suggestion can be paraphrased: Crowley was a racist, misogynist, anti-Semite - but worse than this is that he didn't have much respect for animals.
A view which, frankly, leaves me speechless.
Walterfive - Jan 02, 2009 - 04:18 PM
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Really? Speechless? You don't know any PETA activists, do you? They make me want to eat big heapin' helpings of pork, goat and buffalo IN THEIR FACES while wearing a fur coat and lederhosen.
I have the greatest respect for Vegans, mind you. But the radical PETA fringe I've known are terrorists trying to make a pretty pointless point, IMHO. I won't even entertain dialogue with one of them about the matter. You can't use a persuasive premiss on a person who refuses to acknowledge the point.
Poelzig - Jan 02, 2009 - 04:19 PM
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To put it bluntly, there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals.
Poelzig - Jan 02, 2009 - 04:21 PM
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That being said, I'm not a vegeterian. Humans are an animal speicies. Animals eat animals to survive. But that doesn't give the human race a free pass.
"Every man and woman is a star" doesn't mean any more to me than saying "Every man and woman is a special snowflake."
Saying "Everyone is X" renders "X" nearly meaningless.
kidneyhawk - Jan 02, 2009 - 04:57 PM
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Quote: ›
there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals.
Well, that all depends on which ones are being contrasted!
lashtal - Jan 02, 2009 - 06:18 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals.
And you clearly feel this to be especially the case in respect of Jews and women, given your previous comment.
That's the part that left me speechless, at least figuratively, WalterFive.
Frankly, this one-upmanship in idiocy does the site no credit. So, with a reminder to Poelzig to note the reference to "racism" in the Guidelines, this thread is locked.