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Magick - Grant and Noise
nuhad418 - Feb 28, 2006 - 02:52 PM
Post subject: Grant and Noise
93 all,
I’ve been reading Outer Gateways where Grant discusses (as he does in several of his books) the vibrational effect that rock music has on the astral. I view the astral as the realm of metaphor so this assumption doesn’t hold much sway with me. However, for those who use Grant’s method or share his general Thelemic view, do you agree with this? Seems to me there is a lack of compositions of a classical nature in Thelema. Everything seems to be industrial, avant-garde, or some shade of metal (not that that’s bad). If Grant is right and this type of music can have a detrimental effect why are so many Thelemites using it?
93 93/93
rabrazier - Feb 28, 2006 - 03:07 PM
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Grant started useing sound after he heard the effect of Austin Spare's specially made radios. In later life Spare made radios - old fashioned valve sets obviously. He would tune several to different frequencys of white noise and listen to the effect.
This was an early version of the idea of listening to the static on un tuned tv stations to see if you can pick up voices and so on.
The bad sort of noise -usually called black noise- are those frequencys that can damage humans. For example the military of most countrys have tried to use frequencys so low that they rattle the skull and brain of the enemy. The FBI used something similiar at Waco to drive out the Branch Davidians. Grant believes that some rock music contains these frequencys.
Best Wishes Robert.
nuhad418 - Feb 28, 2006 - 03:17 PM
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That radio comment is interesting Robert; thank you for that. Ok, so ELF and police uses (based on our biology) aside, is it the assumption that the astral and the "black noise" vibrate at different frequences that is at issue here?
If so, then should not all occultists listen to white noise and the occasional classical composer? What would we do without the angst of our more broodish brethren pushing us on!? 
AdLibertas - Apr 25, 2006 - 04:53 PM
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I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isn't conducive to meditation.
Seth156 - Apr 25, 2006 - 07:09 PM
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[quote="AdLibertas"]I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isnI'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine your joking when you imply Grant's cautions surrounding heavy metal are based on his being "a little old man".
It's been sometime since I read Outer Gateways and the chapter concerning noise, but if memory serves
me Grant's basic point was that the frequencies/harmonies found in SOME types of heavy metal/ alternative rock operate on and create a reverberant reaction from Qlipothic regions. I think a quick meditaion on the lyrics and sounds found in say..early TOOL, would give one a very clear experiance of what Grant is talking about. This has been my own experiance regarding the matter and the idea idea of various types of sound causing effects in the consciousness and experiancial reality of an individual is not new.
AdLibertas - Apr 26, 2006 - 01:17 PM
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[quote="Seth156"]AdLibertas wrote: › I would have thought that the sensory inversion referred to in this and other books is a cognate formula, but apparently not. However, he is a little old man, and, honestly, what little old man is into metal? Apart from Lemmy?
Perhaps it just isnI'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and imagine your joking when you imply Grant's cautions surrounding heavy metal are based on his being "a little old man".
It's been sometime since I read Outer Gateways and the chapter concerning noise, but if memory serves
me Grant's basic point was that the frequencies/harmonies found in SOME types of heavy metal/ alternative rock operate on and create a reverberant reaction from Qlipothic regions. I think a quick meditaion on the lyrics and sounds found in say..early TOOL, would give one a very clear experiance of what Grant is talking about. This has been my own experiance regarding the matter and the idea idea of various types of sound causing effects in the consciousness and experiancial reality of an individual is not new.
__________________
No, Seth156, I wasn't joking, though a sense of affectionate humour may be assumed.
I am sooo not going to post a smiley face.
Given Mr. Grant's homely approach to the Qliphothic one doubts whether "fear of the reverberations" is an issue at all. Virtually all of the artwork in the Typhonian Trilogies is simply a visual equivalent of the sort of music referred to and in many cases explicitly designed, by initiated magicians, to evoke those forces. Alright, he likes Count Basie, but would Count Basie voluntarily have a picture of an orgasmic were-spider on an album cover?
No, he wouldn't.
And, for that matter, one can find plenty of "classical" music which does much the same thing, but possibly less successfully.
Look, each to their own, and I think metal has a very limited and specific range of energies which it can access, few of which I can imagine a bloke of over seventy would find the time of day for. This is not intended as a criticism, it is an honest observation of generational attitudes.
runelogix - Apr 26, 2006 - 08:53 PM
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Great post Robert.
I believe Theodore Ruess was a huge fan of Richard Wagners Ring Cycle as having Thelemic undertones. Nietzsche was also captivated by the Opera but for different reasons. Frater Achads analysis of that story deserves a lot of merit, as does Benjamin Rowes elaboration of Frater Achads work. Cant say that I'm a fan of most New Age and heavy metal music made out there, but I'm glad people express themselves this way. Subcultures express themselves universally through music and as long as Thoth's ape doesnt paraody mere heresies of christian rock, I'm all for it! If that's a musicians will to do, run with it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to buy such a CD.
Now as far as the occult implications are concerned I'm certain that there are whole classes of the "Others" that exist in the frequencys we call sound which parallel different dimensional realities. Schizophrenia is one common expression of this in humans if looked out outside from a "clinical" vantage point and more as a magician or shaman they are in contact with the Outer Gateways already. Although we can "hear" sound in waves of "linear" time there many different frequencys and mathematics that can be deduced with algorthims. It's my personal point of view that when "things" start "talking" to you are tuning into magickal consciousness ONLY if it is your will to hear such things. If it is happeneing outside the control of Will than you start going crazy real fast.
I think that as music and sound can change the experience of hallucinatory experiences (not that I'm advocating anything illegal) is proof that sound does alter perceptions, even if imperceptibly, while sober. What good that can do anyone without your HGA? Thats what the psychedelic 60's were about and as far as generations go they leave a lot to be inspired by and many more reassons not reenact 
but thats just a personal opinion.
So in response to your post I agree with Grant on the point that you mentioned, but I havent read his book to know enough of what his writings on the subject infer. My experience with Grant's writings is to read between the lines as far as possible to get at what he's really trying to say rather than what he writes, much like how medieval Grimores hide their content with the words they choose. I don't think that Thelemic musicians are "typical" music makers any more than Thelemites are "typical" occultists. I think they take radically different approaches with their music to reflect that they are very different people, as any of the more well known bands illustrate.
I think too that your post presents a generational difference between Thelemites raised in the 80's and Thelemites from even the 60's to previous decades. I was just reading how Jack Parsons summoned Babalon in 1946 while listening to "Prokofief Violin Concerto No. 2" which I can't say if I've ever heard it, but I look forward to hearing it.
[edit: Frater Achad spelling typo]
ianrons - May 02, 2006 - 04:55 PM
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Just heard this on an old edition of Radio 4's News Quiz, a clipping from the BBC Music Magazine:
Classical music can make you more quick-witted.
Laboratory mice took 10 minutes to work their way through a miniature maze, then were divided into two groups: one was exposed to classical music for 10 hours a day, and the other to heavy metal. The former then made it through the maze in 90 seconds, while the hard rock mice took half an hour. The project was curtailed after the hard rock mice killed each other.
lashtal - May 02, 2006 - 05:19 PM
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Thanks for mentioning that, ianrons, just as I'm preparing to see the awesome Killing Joke live in Oxford this evening! And, yes, I am too old to be doing this sort of thing!
Paul
spike418 - May 02, 2006 - 05:49 PM
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Thelema All
An interesting thread. A quick couple of questions Ian.
Firstly, perhaps the mice exposed to classical music did not like it and were actually looking for the quickest route out, whilst the others were dragging their paws (?) as they wished to prolong their aural experience? Also what metal? Whilst I thoroughly enjoy early Sabbath and some Marilyn Manson, I just cannot abide say Judas Priest or the majority of stuff that my 15 year old niece assaults her ears with. Likewise there is a vast difference between Bruckner (is another Russian president dead?) and J S Bach. Perhaps the mice should be tried on African drums or Goa trance (both of which work for me). From a personal point I have frequently found a spontaneous inner humming of Gustav Holst Jupiter section of the Planet Suite when I am working with Jupiter. This does not happen with other planetary rites. I also recall in the early eighties trying to meditate whilst listening to Lou Reeds Metal Machine Music with headphones on, although nothing useful was achieved..........
I tend to view music as subjective in this way but would be interested to hear others on this subject.
Paul, I hope you enjoy Killing Joke, I had not realised they were still active.
ALWays
Spike
ianrons - May 02, 2006 - 06:12 PM
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93,
I'm sorry, but I don't know more than what was said in the quote -- though it was probably Mozart, if the other experiments to do with classical music and IQ are anything to go by. I just thought it was funny that the rockers killed each other 
Enjoy KJ, Paul -- and btw, if the world is about to end anytime soon, make sure Jaz lets us know in advance, and pass on my condolences about the Icelandic economy 
93 93/93
Ian
papanick - May 03, 2006 - 01:33 AM
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93, all.
This probably dates me, but the soundtracks I often used for ceremonial were the first few minutes of "Tubular Bells" for banishing, and King Crimson's "Larks Tongues in Aspic" for invocation. The latter is a truly mad composition and the wall of noise at the end always left me feeling thoroughly cleansed and peaceful. All a matter of taste, and experience, I guess, I'm not that familiar with classical.
nick
Xethal - May 03, 2006 - 07:23 AM
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Greetings!
Quote: › Thanks for mentioning that, ianrons, just as I'm preparing to see the awesome Killing Joke live in Oxford this evening! And, yes, I am too old to be doing this sort of thing!
Did you hear the set they did on BBC Radio One about the time that the Pandemonium album came out? It was on Mark Radcliffe's show at ten at night and included Radcliffe asking Jaz if he could recommend a good book on Aleister Crowley, to which Jaz replied that he had never heard of him.
Part of the set had technical difficulties and half the UK got Killing Joke whereas the rest got part of Lenny Kravitz. I had my tape machine recording and ended up with Kranitz before going back to normal. I've still got the tape and will have to get around to getting it transferred.
Talking of Classical and Rock, did anybody else hear recently on Planet Rock after the nine 'o clock news one morning that they started playing Classic FM? Several minutes of classical music passed followed by Simon Bates and then, sadly, back to Nicky Horne and Status Quo. That really does say it all.
There was an interesting program on Radio 3 over the weekend about genius and madness with several mentions of classical composers who went over the edge:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/lebrechtlive/
Well worth a listen to in relation to this thread.
lashtal - May 03, 2006 - 06:08 PM
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Xethal,
Xethal wrote: › Did you hear the set they did on BBC Radio One about the time that the Pandemonium album came out? It was on Mark Radcliffe's show at ten at night and included Radcliffe asking Jaz if he could recommend a good book on Aleister Crowley, to which Jaz replied that he had never heard of him.
Haha! But that doesn't stop him quoting him.
Jaz has long been a student of Thelema and he most definitely "lives the life". His show last night, for example, was just a warm-up, performed at a small venue (maybe 500 in the audience). And yet he and the band turned a rock show into something more: a banishing, a celebration and an invocation.
Oh -- he's also very witty...
Paul
rabrazier - May 03, 2006 - 10:27 PM
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Grants interest in music as a form or aid to occultism probably started when hr became friends with Austin Spare.
Spare could play the piano, flute, clarinet and church organ. He was interested towards the end of his life in the way that some instuments such as the clarinet can vibrate the skull of the player, of course this could have lead to a way of entering trance through music if the correct notes were played in the correct order.
Spare was a friend of the classical composer Gustav Holst, and at the time he knew Spare he produced works based on old English pagan themes and the Rig Veda. Exactly what input Spare had in the choice of texts for these works is unknown.
Another classical composer Spare knew was Sir Arnold Bax the brother of Clifford Bax the co-editor of the Golden Hind, Spare's art periodical and later a friend of Crowleys.
The knowledge that Spare obtained from these friendships made him aware of the potential of sound in a magical context.
Later he was to make and sell radios decorated with his art work. He learned how to built them from his long standing friend Frank Letchford who had been a radio operator and repairer in WW2.
To get the effect Spare was after you just need some white noise, which is just the hiss between stations on radios. If you set up four radios around yourself all set for white noise it creates sensory deprivation which together with a mantra produces trance pretty easily.
This way of useing white noise is very effective in treating psychotic patients as it blocks out all other noise.
When Grant writes about rock concerts he is probably thinking about the way very low notes-below 8HTZ- can shake the brain, cause sickness or even death, as proved by the armys use of sonic weapons to kill animals as large as cows at a range of up to half a mile.
Years ago the I.O.T. produced a tape which was supposed to allow the magician to utilize this technology, but it failed because home hi-fi's only have a frequency range of 8-20,000 htz. You need the large speakers used at rock concerts to get the low frequencies.
As for Count Basie he used a special kind of beat in his music. The right hand would play the melody but the left would play a rhythm based on Petro Voodoo drums. The beat is more in the gaps between the notes than what is actually played. There is a cheap cd containing all the music Grant mentions available from HMV Jazz.
Of course Grants interest in Basie and voodoo comes about from the "Obeah and the wanga, the work of the wand and the sword" mentioned in Liber Al.
Voodoo is the only kind of Obeah in use in the west and therefore the best for Grants purpose.
Right. Best Wishes Robert.
PS Spare got the speakers he needed from Marconi.He used the number 13 tram. I have a photograph of it. How much more sad and anorakish can you get?
I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt .
Bye!
lashtal - May 03, 2006 - 10:36 PM
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rabrazier wrote: › I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt.
Reading between the lines, I'd say you're not a fan...
rabrazier - May 04, 2006 - 12:42 AM
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You read between the lines aright Paul.
Robert.
Anonymous - May 04, 2006 - 03:27 AM
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Marilyn Manson....the last "rock star" I could think of as being "manufactured" by the record companies. Whether you like him/his stuff, he of all people is not a puppet. As a matter of fact, if you look into his career, he seems to have had a thelemic/crowleyan interest for a LONG time. You are not going to see that from a casual look see though...
cheers
BlueKephra - May 04, 2006 - 08:01 AM
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rabrazier wrote: › To get the effect Spare was after you just need some white noise, which is just the hiss between stations on radios. If you set up four radios around yourself all set for white noise it creates sensory deprivation which together with a mantra produces trance pretty easily.
This way of useing white noise is very effective in treating psychotic patients as it blocks out all other noise.
Sorcerers Apprentice in Leeds used to sell tapes of white noise, pink noise , and basic rhythms in alpha, theta etc for use in ritual and trance states.Maybe they stil do, I don't know.
There is of course a whole genre of "noise" music that has been going on argueably as long as there has been music, although the artists using it for puroses other than bludgeoning the senses are probably countable on one hand. I have heard japanese noise king Merzbows gigs described as being "like being in the calm centre of a cyclone", I'm not a fan meself.
The artist currently known as Z'ev, who has been around in the experimental and industrial music scenes since the late 60's has been exploring trance states induced through sound and rhythm for some time, and his re-interpretation of quabalha can be downloaded here :
http://www.rhythmajik.com. He is currently working on a magnum opus on the subjects of trance and altered states of consciousness called Heart Beating/Ear Drumming.
I used to love Killing Joke, I despair of their current direction and sound.
lashtal - May 04, 2006 - 08:16 AM
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Some very interesting observations, BlueKhephra: thank you.
For info, I've created some music specific Forum threads on LAShTAL.COM this morning, including one for Killing Joke, here: http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-vi ... -856.phtml
Azad - May 06, 2006 - 06:20 PM
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rabrazier wrote: › There is a cheap cd containing all the music Grant mentions available from HMV Jazz.
Bye!
Oh, what is the name of the cd?
Thanks.
rabrazier - May 06, 2006 - 08:23 PM
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Its called The Best of Count Basie. Its only available from HMV stores. £4.99.
Best Wishes Robert.
S.Brady - May 25, 2006 - 01:15 AM
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For those bemoaning a lack of Thelema inspired music in the classical field should look to the last 3 or 4 years output by John Zorn. There's some interesting stuff to be heard for sure.
S.Brady
bazelek - May 25, 2006 - 08:50 AM
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rabrazier wrote: › I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt .
Really? I always thought MM was a bit of an intellectual?
Anyway, in my view the work of classical composer Kaikhosru Sorabji is as weird and subversive/shocking as anything produced by contemporary musicians. He was a student of the occult too and sought a deeper understanding of these things than can be gained by wearing a T-shirt with 666 on - although that looks good on MTV. Aside from being a genuine recluse, his music was unique: one piece was 24 hours long!
Uncommercial, original, deviant, in other words, everything that modern metal isn't... oh yes, and Spare did his portrait.
bazelek
MichaelStaley - May 25, 2006 - 10:11 AM
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bazelek wrote: › Anyway, in my view the work of classical composer Kaikhosru Sorabji is as weird and subversive/shocking as anything produced by contemporary musicians. He was student of the occult too and sought a deeper understanding of these things than can be gained by wearing a T-shirt with 666 on - although that looks good on MTV. Aside from being a genuine recluse, his music was unique: one piece was 24 hours long!
In his excellent article published in the booklet issued at the recent Spare 50th Conference, Robert Ansell describes meeting Sorabji, who had a Spare on his wall at the time. Basalek, could you recommend any particular works by Sorabji for those of us unaquainted with his work, but interested in - as I believe you young people say - checking him out??
Chiswick_Demon - May 25, 2006 - 10:19 PM
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Marilyn Manson is a bit more complex than most would think. He is shy and though a product of his record company, he has produced music that is not very comercial and slaps the establishment in the face. The Columbine mess was pointed directly at him.
On the Occult side, he is more from the Lavey camp than Crowley. I had the chance to chat with him a couple of years ago and he truly does not give a damn what people think of his beliefs. He does take the attacks on the effects of his music on children very seriously.
He has a lot of respect for Crowley and thus his mention of the Abbey of Thelema on his early albums. He really does remind you of that geeky kid in school that really was shy until he became comfortable around you.
Just a thought from the bible belt......and my bible belt has been around my ankles for years:)
93
joe93 - Jun 24, 2006 - 11:49 AM
Post subject: Grant and Noise
nuhad418 wrote: › 93 all,
I’ve been reading Outer Gateways where Grant discusses (as he does in several of his books) the vibrational effect that rock music has on the astral. I view the astral as the realm of metaphor so this assumption doesn’t hold much sway with me. However, for those who use Grant’s method or share his general Thelemic view, do you agree with this? Seems to me there is a lack of compositions of a classical nature in Thelema. Everything seems to be industrial, avant-garde, or some shade of metal (not that that’s bad). If Grant is right and this type of music can have a detrimental effect why are so many Thelemites using it?
93 93/93
When David Tibet was interviewed for Sounds magazine in the early eighties regarding his Hastings Archive disc, he mentioned that Grant was a bit dubious about it as because "they had put out a Crowley single before and the person that had done it had ripped them off something rotten." http://www.brainwashed.com/axis/crowley/tibet666.htm This could be a 'mundane' reason for his dislike of rock n' roll. But there's certainly a profound truth in what he says in Outer Gateways.
Never mind about good ol' Count Basie though.
When Gerald Suster reviewed Grant's Hecates Fountain in the Skoob Occult Review, he remarked "Could this guy be the greatest contemporary piss artist, greater even than Frank Zappa?" Now that got me thinking...
In his study of Zappa, The Negative Dialectics of Poodle Play, Ben Watson looks at Zappa's 'conceptual continuity' - his use of repeated motifs throughout his work; in the music, the lyrics, and in the artwork. He speaks of reification as does Grant. I dunno if it's just me, but the unconscious Thelema/Typhonian references just keep on multiplying:
One LP cover and several songs playfully pun on Ain Soph Aur & 'sofa' - (Set/seat) & God/dog (AL) see here: http://www.militantesthetix.co.uk/zappo/OSFAweb.htm The back cover the same album shows giant insects emerging from tunnels under the ground. And the first song is about UFOs landing on the Nazca lines. Another song is about a giant spider sitting on the Ain Soph Aur (sic) . There's an album whose cover is decorated with Egyptian motifs called The Grand Wazoo. A later work entitled Civilisation Phase 3 (geddit?) has a cover teeming with more Egyptian images (beetles) & more references to tunnels. There are millions of others. But...
Zappa was a materialist, with little interest in spirituality - the only 'reference' you find to Crowley is the couplet "Do what you want/Do what you will/Don't mess up your neighbour's thrill". But what Watson stresses in his book is that artists work with concepts from an unconscious level (cf Spare). Creativity isn't like a game of pass the parcel ie "so & so has read Crowley, therefore they're good". One of Hall & Oates is into Crowley!
And you all though Zappa was a knob gag merchant. Crowley was a great comedian too, but that'll be another thread. Here's a bit on Zappa, Parsons & OTO: http://www.militantesthetix.co.uk/ice-z/gamma.htm
Zappa was influenced by Stockhausen, who of course believes that he was born on Sirius & that his music is the language spoken there. We all know about the Donald Cammell/Crowley connection, but his co-director Nic Roeg used some Stockhausen music in his Walkabout. There's a bit on the soundtrack where amongst the radio static you can hear someone reading from the Confessions ("Every man and every woman is a star...") Does anybody know if this is by Stockhausen?
Thanks to Lashtal.com for letting me get all this off my chest! 
93
lashtal - Jun 24, 2006 - 12:16 PM
Post subject: Grant and Noise
joe93 wrote: › Thanks to Lashtal.com for letting me get all this off my chest!
Not at all... It's us that ought to thank you for a truly interesting post!
On a not-too-dissimilar tack, I refer you to Ken Russell's impressive 1995 BBC Radio 3 play, The Death of Scriabin, featuring James Wilby as Scriabin and the genius Oliver Reed as Aleister Crowley.
joe93 - Jun 24, 2006 - 12:40 PM
Post subject: Grant and Noise
lashtal wrote: ›
joe93 wrote: › Thanks to Lashtal.com for letting me get all this off my chest!
Not at all... It's us that ought to thank you for a truly interesting post!
On a not-too-dissimilar tack, I refer you to Ken Russell's impressive 1995 BBC Radio 3 play,
The Death of Scriabin, featuring James Wilby as Scriabin and the genius Oliver Reed as Aleister Crowley.
Ah yes, I heard about - but didn't actually hear it - at the time. I often wish that Russell could have done the A. C. story with 'Ollie' in the early seventies (when the Crowley revival was really starting). When you think of the likes of The Devils and so on. Well, we can wish... Altered States is a good film too 
Best regards
lashtal - Jun 24, 2006 - 12:45 PM
Post subject: Grant and Noise
Well, it had to happen eventually. A Forum post every word of which I absolutely agree with!
joe93 wrote: › I often wish that Russell could have done the A. C. story with 'Ollie' in the early seventies (when the Crowley revival was really starting). When you think of the likes of The Devils and so on. Well, we can wish... Altered States is a good film too
It's not too late for Ken to produce something spectacular about Crowley. I live in hope: perhaps for TV, the medium he started in. Anyone here know Lord Melvyn Bragg? Sounds like a job for the South Bank Show...
joe93 - Jun 24, 2006 - 01:06 PM
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Do I get a medal? I read somewhere that Ken is now directing movies from his shed with locals as extras (or something similar?) We should start pestering him now...
Anticredos - Apr 15, 2008 - 08:39 AM
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Sorry to resurrect such an ancient thread, but thought someone might be interested in this retrospective of the music of Queasy Listening:
http://ricercares.livejournal.com/11496.html
There's a lot of Grant influence there - of particular relevance to this thread "Invasion of the Energy Spectres", inspired by Grant's comments on rock music in Outer Gateways.
sethur666 - Apr 15, 2008 - 09:09 AM
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93
I have long held a theory about musical tastes in men. Having heard generation after generation bemoaning the music of the next generation, it goes like this:
"The best music in histroy of any kind is the type we were dancing to the night I finally got laid."
Be it at a dance, a disco, a party or a club, T Rex rule. Shows my age.
Count Basie, eh? Shows Grant's age.
93 93/93
Steve W
Walterfive - Apr 15, 2008 - 02:30 PM
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bazelek wrote: ›
rabrazier wrote: › I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt .
Really? I always thought MM was a bit of an intellectual?
I don't know about "intellectual" but he's a reasonably intelligent (if sometimes rather shallow) guy who takes (or took, at any rate) LaVey's brand of Satanism pretty seriously. He doesn't have the discipline to be seriously "intellectual", IMHO. Personally, I don't think he has an original bone in his artistic body; if there's anything in his stuff or his stage show that he hasn't stolen from Trent Reznor, G.G. Allin, David Bowie, Iggy Pop and Alice Cooper, I've never heard or seen it.
Oh, and as we were talking about "Black Noise", I suggest you check out "The Men Who Stare At Goats" by Jon Ronson, there's a lot of stuff in there about it being used by U.S. Military PSYOPS on detainees at Gitmo and Abu Graib. The CIA's research on this subject goes back to the days of MK-ULTRA.
oneiros - Apr 18, 2008 - 12:05 AM
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rabrazier wrote: › To get the effect Spare was after you just need some white noise, which is just the hiss between stations on radios.
I think you're making this stuff up, Robert. What's your source? I once specifically asked Frank letchford about this sort of thing and he said that Spare merely used his radios to listen to the Home Service while he was alone working in the studio. A bit more prosaic thatn we might hope, but there it is.
Are you not getting yourself muddled up with Burroughs' experiments in Rue Git le Coeur?
o
Poelzig - Apr 18, 2008 - 05:11 AM
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Chiswick_Demon wrote: › Marilyn Manson is a bit more complex than most would think. He is shy and though a product of his record company, he has produced music that is not very comercial and slaps the establishment in the face. The Columbine mess was pointed directly at him.
On the Occult side, he is more from the Lavey camp than Crowley. 93
Actually from what I've observed, most Church of Satan people distance themselves from Marilyn Manson as much as possible, mostly because of his drug issues. A better representative of the "LaVey camp" would be Boyd Rice, who is still a Magister in the CoS.
Whether MM has thelemic content or not, I don't know, I don't follow his music at all.
I make "noise music" and with basic software, sequencers, samplers, with effects etc. you can create and loop an increidbly broad spectrum of audio frequencies from ambient to abrasive, each with their own mood conducive to different states of mind. There is even freeware that is so user friendly I'm amazed more magicians are not utilizing it for these specific purposes.
oneiros - Apr 18, 2008 - 12:53 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › There is even freeware that is so user friendly I'm amazed more magicians are not utilizing it for these specific purposes.
Maybe they will - can you offer any links to get us started?
o
oneiros - Apr 18, 2008 - 01:09 PM
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rabrazier wrote: › I wish that tram was still running, I could shove Marylin bloody Manson under it! He's so obviously manufactored by his record company to do stuff that will upset mom and pop in the bloody bible belt.
bazelek wrote: › Really? I always thought MM was a bit of an intellectual?
I rather had the impression that he was self-manufactured as a "rock star" or, perhaps, as a deliberate pastiche ersatz-rock star. Music journalists are sometimes wont to do this, for instance Neil Tennant or Steve Harley, and a few others. There is something a little too knowing about MM's references for it all to be mere plagiarism. Check out Mechanical Animals (primarily the packaging and concept) as a smirky hommage to Bowie's Ziggy Stardust/Aladdin Sane period work.
Having said that I can't really stand the c*nt either, but let's give praise where it's earned...
o
Poelzig - Apr 18, 2008 - 04:11 PM
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If Marilyn Manson is an "intellectual" then I'm a German rocket scientist.
Poelzig - Apr 18, 2008 - 08:40 PM
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oneiros wrote: ›
Poelzig wrote: › There is even freeware that is so user friendly I'm amazed more magicians are not utilizing it for these specific purposes.
Maybe they will - can you offer any links to get us started?
o
I've been using Adobe Studio, which is not free, for a long time, but I remember being able to do quite a bit with a freeware program called WavePad. Basically if you had mp3 or wav files of anything you could isolate samples, make loops, change pitch and speed, mix files and add a variety of distortion effects. I'm sure less than an hour on google will yield useful resources.
If I had known how much you can do with digital audio on a PC with fairly inexpensive or free software, I would have never bothered with most hardware.
oneiros - Apr 20, 2008 - 10:18 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › If Marilyn Manson is an "intellectual" then I'm a German rocket scientist.
I hear what you're saying, but I think his snappy ad hoc riposte to Moore's question in Bowling for Columbine betrays a certain acuity of intelligence and wit.
o
Poelzig - Jan 02, 2009 - 01:11 PM
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On the Michael Moore scale of intelligence and wit, perhaps, not on mine.
lashtal - Jan 02, 2009 - 03:55 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › If Marilyn Manson is an "intellectual" then I'm a German rocket scientist.
Poelzig wrote: › On the Michael Moore scale of intelligence and wit, perhaps, not on mine.
LOL!
Good to see you've triumphed over those two impostors, humility and modesty!
oneiros - Jan 05, 2009 - 06:06 PM
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lashtal wrote: ›
Poelzig wrote: › If Marilyn Manson is an "intellectual" then I'm a German rocket scientist.
Poelzig wrote: › On the Michael Moore scale of intelligence and wit, perhaps, not on mine.
LOL!
Good to see you've triumphed over those two impostors, humility and modesty!
Don't be mean Mr Moderator - he's obviously been working on that one since last April.
przm28 - Jan 07, 2009 - 12:05 AM
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light is sound, sound is light
lashtal - Jan 07, 2009 - 12:19 AM
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przm28 wrote: › light is sound, sound is light
And on that, um, remarkable insight, this thread splutters its last and dies a death.
Locked.