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Since all men from their birth employ sense prior to intellect, and are necessarily first conversant with sensible things: Some, proceeding no farther, pass through life considering these as first and last; and apprehending what is painful to be evil, what is pleasant to be good, they deem it sufficient to shun the one and pursue the other. Some pretending to greater reason than the rest, esteem this wisdom; like earth-bound birds, though they have wings are unable to fly. The secret souls of others would recall them from pleasure to worthier pursuits; but they cannot soar: they choose the lower way and strive in vain. Thirdly, there are those divine men whose eyes pierce through clouds and darkness to supernal vision, where they abide as in their own lawful country
-- Plotinus
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Post subject: Thelemic/Non-Thelemic Relationships
 Posted: Feb 13, 2007 - 07:37 AM
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I'm wondering about personal relationships in the cases of lovers, one being Thelemic, or Occultist and the other being aetheist, or of other Religious dogmas, or without dogma, beliefs, faiths, etc.
I want to know if the combination is possible. Many things are within the realm of possibility but does this often fail? It seems as such. I'm curious about Crowleys' relationships and how the women involved took his strange Spirituality, and where it led them as lovers. If there were any in question who were specifically aethetist, or of differenciating opinion and how this manifested in their happiness or unhappiness.
I know this is a very general question and not one that is easily answered or without exceptions, but any speculation is welcome and appreciated greatly. And pre-thanks a bunch.
Also providing this more often does actually fail as I've observed, any suggestions for healthy acceptance of both points of view, without unreal expectations? How to accomplish that or begin to? Or what's too much to expect from either side, set by example of Crowleys' experiences, or others similar to him? Any general information what-so-ever. I want to know what the people here think, and of Crowleys' experiences with the subject himself, I'm greatly curious. Did most of the women accept his ideas full-heartedly right off the bat? If they did come to in time, in how long? And if not, what was the fate of their relationship with A.C.? One can assume it didn't go swimingly, but I am not sure myself.
Thanks again,
Becky |
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KCh |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 16, 2007 - 11:28 PM
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Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 232
Location: Louisville, Ky
Status: Offline
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Yes, compatible!
The beauty of Thelema lies in its acceptance of the Universe 'as it is'. This includes all possible view-points.
Read Crowley's confessions. And if you can get them, the diaries or auto/biographies of the ladies. |
_________________
Theorte Ekstasis
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 17, 2007 - 08:00 AM
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I've read a good half of Confessions but when I tried to renew it the library wanted it back for mending. I didn't get to any of his more lasting, if you could call them that from the impressions I get, relationships.
But as I'm with a Buddhist/currently Aethetist person, we can certainly appreciate this point of view. It's difficult at times but well worth it. I think of the song Parabol/Parabola by Tool.
"If there was no reward to reap,
No lasting embrace to see me through
This tedious path I've chosen here,
I certainly would have walked away by now."
Agape,
Becky |
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KCh |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 17, 2007 - 09:56 AM
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Joined: Oct 08, 2003
Posts: 232
Location: Louisville, Ky
Status: Offline
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Leah Hirsig: http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/hirsig.htm
By far the most important lady in regards to the specifics of your question. Her magical journal is online here or there.
Crowley's own words on her: "“She loves me for my work… She knows and loves the God in me, not the man; and therefore she has conquered the great enemy that hides behind his clouds of poisonous gas, Illusion.”"
Crowley's 'Science and Buddhism' might be an interesting read. Also Chapter 0 of Magick in Theory and Practice.
Relationships, whether they be Crowley's or not, if they are healthy do not last so long when each one involved believes that there is some unspoken necessity to be like each other. Or, they exist for convenience. There is no reward in trying to 'work it out'. It either does or does not. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't in your case. So long as it is thy will.
I have been a lifelong supporter of difference over sameness. I embrace it and encourage it. I affirm beyond doubt that we can all get along with our 'business'(aka Great Work) fine and dandy with one as a Thelemite, the other a Buddhist/Atheist.
Conversion should occur through example. Be a living testament to the joy you have, and the love you embrace. It never fails to impress the Godless. Because we all know that the concept of 'God' is as big a bug-a-boo to the Atheist as the 'Devil' is to a Fundamentalist. |
_________________
Theorte Ekstasis
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 17, 2007 - 10:21 AM
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Joined: Jul 24, 2005
Posts: 46
Location: Yokohama
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my wife is an atheist with no interest whatsoever (and actually a pretty strong dislike of) occultism. i am an occultist.
she never complains when i use my "magick power" as we call it, to give her a middle pillar/chakra massage though! and occasionally she will ask me to "cleanse" a place of bad vibes etc.
we have been happy together for the last 9 years. i accept her, she accepts me, that's all there is to it  |
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shangren |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 17, 2007 - 02:55 PM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2006
Posts: 58
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KCh wrote: ›
Relationships, whether they be Crowley's or not, if they are healthy do not last so long when each one involved believes that there is some unspoken necessity to be like each other.
I am really impressed by this statement. It's an acute observation stated in a succinct way.
Awesome.
My boyfriend is also an athiest with no interest in religion, but honestly it doesn't come up. We just don't discuss it, not because it's taboo, but because it's just there - like furniture.
At the risk of veering a little from the topic, I'd go on to say that Thelema has helped me to realize what a healthy relationship is, and that's what Kch just ennunicated so clearly. A relationship where two people love one another for their differences, and are secure in themselves has no need of all the irritating drama that most relationships are plagued with.
Good luck to us all in that. And a happy Chinese new year, as well.
- Shangren |
_________________
"The many adore you, but have you really any reason for pride when you are the type of person that the many understand?"
- Seneca
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Castrensis |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 18, 2007 - 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 21, 2006
Posts: 21
Location: US
Status: Offline
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Thelema,
Although I am single and may as well have no significant experience in the nurturing and maintenance of long-term relationships I find it rather difficult to imagine myself living side-by-side another person and being unable to discuss my values or the praxis to which I daily, joyfully conform.
I am first & foremost a Thelemite because Thelema & the commentary of the Prophet "...is pure Freedom, and He will give no command which is other than a Right Interpretation of this Freedom." It's for this very reason that I have established Thelema as my sole code of conduct and stand aghast at any Thelemite who does not declare the glad word of Liberty in his/her home.
As KCh wrote earlier, a potential mate must not feel an unspoken committment to like the same things as I, but must have enough sense in their head to see that Thelema is true freedom -- studying Liber Legis and following out the ordeals is in their best interest. Not because I am a Thelemite but because they are unabashedly selfish in attaining Godhead.
Agape,
J. |
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CosmicSpice |
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Post subject:
Posted: Feb 19, 2007 - 05:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 27, 2006
Posts: 55
Location: Saskatoon
Status: Offline
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I think it would depend upon the relationship. I don't see a problem if the other person respects your work and leaves you free to do it. Crowley does say Magick is for ALL, but it seems a lot of Atheists don't have the same perception of what Magick is. I personally am an agnostic - I believe in a higher power/s, but I don't know what to always call them. I think I recall Crowley saying something about how in one relationship his lover was getting irritated at some of his practices, such as vows of silence.
I'd say, it would be absolutely fine so long as the other person respects fully what your doing and respects the time you set aside for practices such as yoga and whatnot (not interupting, e.t.c.) I am personally quite stubborn and find it difficult to relate to most people in general, but would certainly consider a relationship with a non-thelemite so long as they don't get upset at my odd behavior and constant ritual/meditation practices.
Perhaps something in Magick Without Tears will help, I always find something helpful in there as a quick answer to something troubling me.
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/mwt/
Speaking of meditation, I better be off
---
Sincerely, Ryan
L.V.X. |
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Dunkel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 28, 2007 - 02:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 14
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
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KCh wrote: › Yes, compatible!
The beauty of Thelema lies in its acceptance of the Universe 'as it is'. This includes all possible view-points.
exactly  |
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aster |
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Post subject: Thelemic/Non-Thelemic Relationships
Posted: May 04, 2007 - 05:09 PM
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Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 5
Status: Offline
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Vilaven wrote: › I'm wondering about personal relationships in the cases of lovers, one being Thelemic, or Occultist and the other being aetheist, or of other Religious dogmas, or without dogma, beliefs, faiths, etc.
Interesting question and one which which was recently discussed on a Witchcraft forum I belong to. There the overwhelming majority said that it leads to problems. But from a Thelemic perspective I guess that you should allow your partner their own freedom to do as their Will dictates to them. On the other hand that does not prevent them from trying to impose their Will on you, which is where the problems are likely to start.
Personally none of my long term relationships were with those of a non-magickal and non-occult inclination. Lovers yes, but relationships a firm No for me. |
_________________
Deceipt is the Act of a Goddess
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runelogix |
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Post subject: Thelemic/Non-Thelemic Relationships
Posted: May 04, 2007 - 07:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Posts: 168
Location: San Francisco
Status: Offline
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aster wrote: › Personally none of my long term relationships were with those of a non-magickal and non-occult inclination. Lovers yes, but relationships a firm No for me.
Excellent attitude aster. |
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aster |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 07, 2007 - 05:04 PM
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Joined: May 04, 2007
Posts: 5
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| Runelogix, to do otherwise would be Dull, don't you think? |
_________________
Deceipt is the Act of a Goddess
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Marcel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 04:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 16
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My fiancé is not Thelemite (she admires the law though) but a Spiritualist.
We function very well since "Every man and every woman is a star" and "Love is the law, love under will".
That is, as i do my will i must by necessity apply love.
Great Kudos to KCh who hit the nail here.
I would be terrified if she was suddenly becoming to much like me.
First of all she wouldnt provide me with new experience with wich to unite, but worse, if she became my clone she would not be doing her will (by whatever name or method).
We might both be Gemeni and we co wrote (spontaniasly in on line conversation) a poem called "Twinstars" about it.
She is free to be who she is, express herself as she will, look how she will, speak as she will, experience as she will and have sex with whom she will to a very large extent (as far as there is still a union of the amorous kind between us).
The same rights are set aside for me.
In short, it is my will that she move about her own infinate universe according to her will and all the richer am i as we dance around each other.
In many sences she behaves much like a Thelemite.
We have a lot of communication and trust going on though and our twinpath of Light, Love and Liberty might not be everyones, and for the same reasons, Will and Love. |
_________________
"Be thou Hadit, my secret centre, my heart & my tongue!"
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gurugeorge |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 05:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Great conversation with some points very well made. Some fots:
It's often the case that someone will call themselves an "Buddhist" or a "Christian", but their interpretation of Buddhism or Christianity will be inherently or naturally Thelemic. With that type of Buddhist or Christian there should be little problem.
But sometimes one may fall in lust with someone who really does have an un-Thelemic or Old Aeon view. That's more difficult. There are warnings about "not mixing the planes" - yes, from a philosophical point of view, they are part of life's rich pageant as well, but magickally (if you believe in such a thing) a relationship with such a person, spending time with them, taking on some of their mental and moral colouring, might be bad for one's pursuit of one's own True Will.
Also, it's wise to be aware of the difference between lust and love, or between a sexual relationship and a relationship proper; also between relationships geared towards raising a family and romantic relationships based purely on deep friendship.
Sexual lust (in which the partner seems like god, glittering, attractive, making one breathless, heart-pounding, sweaty-palmed, where being apart from them seems unbearable) is hormonal, limited in time. Nature has set this mechanism up for us to perpetuate the species. Nature has also set up a mechanism whereby such relationships can deepen into friendships capable of weathering all sorts of life-storms so that the couple can be stable and rear children in a safe environment, so that when the lust fades, there's still some kind of "glue" there.
Lust doesn't automatically lead to deep friendship in this way - it has to be worked on, desired by both parties. To move on from lust to a stable relationship, some joint project is required. The usual, natural thing is of course bringing up children together. Absent that, some joint project to work on that's the mutual "child" of the relationship might be possible - even a course of joint pursuit of hedonism might work for this, for a few years  But if there isn't such a joint project, the relationship will probably fall apart after about a year or so, or just turn into an ordinary, deep, but non-sexual friendship.
Or maybe not, but perhaps it's wise to be aware of the possibility. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
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uranus |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 30, 2007 - 07:15 PM
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Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 237
Status: Offline
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| I've had the misfortune of most of the women I have been involved with in the last 15 years have been hostile to my practices. One girlfriend used it against me in our arguements, telling me how it scared her and was "satanic shit" without taking the time to read it. Early on though I had signed my 0=0 Oath in the A.'.A.'. and the ordeal of the that grade is detailed in Liber Aleph, De Sirenis. Most of the women have wanted me to quit or used it in arguements with me. I have had one lover who didn't care and she was a "witch" (not a wiccan or neopagan) and one I thought was ok with it but 8 years after we broke up she told me it was actually a big issue for her, especially when I got back in contact with my first A.'.A.'. instructor. She knew I could not devote myself to her, that the Great Work was my focus and always will be and she tried to live with it but found she couldn't and god bless her, told me she split up with me to keep from holding me back. |
_________________
In case you can't figure it out, my comments are based on my experiences or learned from various teachers either right or wrong. I am not to be taken as an authority, if you assume such, that is you, not me.
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sethur666 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 31, 2007 - 04:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 290
Status: Offline
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93
Can I just say that I've had two relationships with committed Thelemic women and two with Wiccan women with strong Thelemic leanings (both Alexandrians) and they have been as beautiful, painful, mad and instructive as any others - but with added insight. Any Thelemeites out there thinking "if only I had a Thelemic partner" - be careful what you wish for. And as for women on the fringes of Thelema - watch your bank balance
93 93/93
Steve W |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 31, 2007 - 04:35 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2387
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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sethur666 wrote: › Any Thelemeites out there thinking "if only I had a Thelemic partner" - be careful what you wish for. And as for women on the fringes of Thelema - watch your bank balance
Locked. |
_________________
Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM
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