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Science is always discovering odd scraps of magical wisdom and making a tremendous fuss about its cleverness.
-- Aleister Crowley
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 05:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
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jtm-!
I quite agree-! So very well put-!
Also: your final paragraph called to mind my practice of AC's Star Ruby in which the Junges are before and the Teletarchai behind...I began to feel the Teletarchai as very much the
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wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now
pushing through me like a currential wave, pushing towards the Junges which I began to see as my HGA, the
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inner buddha nature
or
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'true will'
or Christos.
Instead of setting oneself in the midst of some static circle, one evokes an awareness of tremendous movement, change and growth. And the ritual then nutures and fuels the psyche as it carries on into fields of experience beyond the "circle."
93,
Kyle |
_________________
"Embrace Reality by Imagination." -Austin Osman Spare
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 06:46 PM
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jtm wrote: ›
For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now.
Indeed, I always thought of them like
*Buddha = the awakened nature/reality of all (behind attachment/ignorance) - the True Self (Yechidah) or solar awareness, in a way
*Sangha = the entire Universe - the Khu, especially those entities who are striving to attain and have attained.
*Dharma = Do what thou wilt (ones Will or Chiah) - also the beautiful joyful pure lawful harmonious motion of the Universe in all parts.
Further, an interesting thing I thought of while examining the Three Characteristics (of all existence):
*Impermanence (Anicca): All things are impermanent in themselves, this is directly related to Not-self/Anatta. The universe is dynamic - Thelema affirms this very much.
*Not-Self (Anatta): because all things in the phenomenal universe are impermanent, they have no constant independent identity. Thelema also affirms this in a sense, but also says Everything is self (you get to the same place where you stop distinguishing between Self & Not-Self). Thelema also acknowledges that one's nature as well as the universe's is to Go.
*Suffering/discontent (Dukkha): This is where Thelema is opposite. Buddha's first noble truth is always something like 'Existence is suffering.' AL II:9 says, "Existence is pure joy." This is the only one of the three Characteristics that appears in the universe when one has ignorance. Buddha also acknowledges in the 2nd & 3rd noble truths that suffering can be transcended/stopped through a definite method (his 8fold path), in a way: you could say Buddha's doctrine is about leaving suffering to come to that nirvanic joy (though its not 'joy' in any normal sense). Thelema might be more of a doctrine of 'coming to the joy' of the real nature. We all know - especially buddha - of th power of the mind. If we affirm that Existence is joy, we shall see joy in all places. If we think Existence is suffering, we will see suffering. Perhaps the 3 characteristics of Thelemic universe would be closer to Anicca, Anatta, and Joy.
210 & 65,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 07:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Interesting Aum. I've always thought that the difference between you and I over the concept of dukkha is essentially a matter of perspective. I think even Buddhist adepts would agree that 'with ignorance', one sees dukkha, or 'unsatisfaction'; whereas once one has attained a certain amount of wisdom, this turns to joy, even ecstasy is the way I like to think of it (because it is). So the impermanence and non-selfness of everything suddenly creates joy instead of suffering. Through programming the self, the same inputs produce the opposite outputs. That's magick in a nutshell for me.
The 'blazing star' for me is a symbol of the ecstatic person - the enlightened one. The 'skillful means' to this state is summed up by the caduceus, symbolizing 'kundalini' as I know it. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 08:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2006
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jtm wrote: › Interesting Aum. I've always thought that the difference between you and I over the concept of dukkha is essentially a matter of perspective.
Told you we disagree less than youd think.
Quote: › I think even Buddhist adepts would agree that 'with ignorance', one sees dukkha, or 'unsatisfaction'; whereas once one has attained a certain amount of wisdom, this turns to joy, even ecstasy is the way I like to think of it (because it is). So the impermanence and non-selfness of everything suddenly creates joy instead of suffering. Through programming the self, the same inputs produce the opposite outputs. That's magick in a nutshell for me.
When there is 'no difference' made between self & not-self, there is no attachment and all becomes the play ("lila" in Hinduism) of the Godhead/Self.
Quote: › The 'blazing star' for me is a symbol of the ecstatic person - the enlightened one. The 'skillful means' to this state is summed up by the caduceus, symbolizing 'kundalini' as I know it.
I reminded of these images: 
.jpg)
210 & 65,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 09:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
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Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Beautifully put Aum418!
You have elaborated much of the Buddhist-Thelemic linkage concerning things that are hinted at, but never fully explained in great length.
Such as this Buddhist eightfold path (right thought, action and so on) which is their proscribed and inclusive standard set of discipline and conduct for alleviating “suffering-sorrow” . In Thelema we have:The Grade of Master of the Temple 8 degree. “He is Master of the Law of Sorrow (Dukka).
So it seems that the methods, practices, and “Yoga of Thelema” as elaborated by AC just about has everything covered.
One "truly" attaining to the grade of Master of the Temple has no need to observe any such disciplines (ever mindfully) like the Buddhist, (less they lose their Dharma)_ as early on they would have integrated and mastered such disciplines and practices in the early training. This is the why and wherefore of the warning not to take the Oath of the Master of the Temple before one is ready. Looks like the old fellow knew what he was doing, when he took the best from various systems, purged it of the dross and incorporated it into his system of attainment built into the lower grades of his AA.
Yes, I would indeed advise all Thelemites to thouroughly study and practice of various Buddhist mental diciplines. If they have never looked into it they surely should!
Love is the law, love under will. |
Last edited by sonofthestar on Jun 14, 2007 - 11:25 PM; edited 1 time in total
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GDPQT |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 10:53 PM
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The reason for posting such an interesting point is that it was my personal experience, i joined the oto, and practiced thelema... i also practiced many other things... I met a true master along the way... I studied and practic ed with him, he showed me some interesting things, then i dismissed him... When the student is ready the master will dissapear. What or who is your master? The oto? thelema, crowley, your HGA... its all just distractions along the way to the path of enlighentment... you know when you are there for you will no longer need the tools, it will just happen, consciousness change will be done, its natural and how your mind works. Refreshing huh, tis good to let go of things, it cleanses your soul.
out of 100,000 people, about 10,000 get into alternative knowledge, out of these 10,000, 1000 start to live by this, out of 1000, 100 people really dedicate there lives to this... out of 100, 10 people actually find the right path, out of these 10 people 1 or 2 actually wake up. my experience... and most of the awake never even practiced the occult arts.
interesting huh
but believe what you want to beleive, i came on here to say a few things, now i will move on... take care people, life is prescious. |
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MichaelStaley |
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Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:31 PM
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GDPQT wrote: › but believe what you want to beleive, i came on here to say a few things, now i will move on... take care people, life is prescious.
Portentous, moi?
Bye, troll. |
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"It's all in the egg".
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:33 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I take it then GDPQT, that you are "The Master Of Fly By Night Postings" and have dismissed yourself!
You could have at least given all of us some description of the Illumination you found to be the apex of attainment.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:42 PM
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GDPQT wrote: › The reason for posting such an interesting point is that it was my personal experience, i joined the oto, and practiced thelema... i also practiced many other things... I met a true master along the way... I studied and practic ed with him, he showed me some interesting things, then i dismissed him... When the student is ready the master will dissapear.
Wow. If I dismissed my teachers I wouldn't have any friends left. Or a job.
O.o |
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:44 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Sorry Michael! I think we posted at about the same time. Perhaps your response should have been the last reply to GDPQT.
He did though infuse something or nothing, or no thing or something into the thread that I think led to some interesting posts, somehow relating to something or other he commented on.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 14, 2007 - 11:51 PM
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Well, Aum's image uploads are quite cool (but who can't like Mr. Gray?)
jtm's allusion to the Blazing Star reminded me of the Masonic Lodge with its checkerboard floor, in the center of which is the "Blazing Star." Setting aside the "official" Masonic commentary on the same, the implications of the "Mosaic pavement" (a world which is dualistic-and thereby providing the conditions for "Suffering") are contrasted against the 5-Pointed Star which erupts in the midst, opening into "ecstacy"-or vivid organic life. Also, the "suffering tiles" are Mosaic (Judeo Law) and the Blazing Star is "Christic" (Pentagrammaton), the tiles seperate, the Pentagram unites...
"First God Almighty comes with a thump on the head-then Jesus Christ with a balm to heal it."
-Blake |
_________________
"Embrace Reality by Imagination." -Austin Osman Spare
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MichaelStaley |
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Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 12:17 AM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › I think led to some interesting posts, somehow relating to something or other he commented on.
Yes, perhaps I was being unduly dismissive. My youthful exuberance is sometimes restrained by a cynicism beyond my years. Perhaps he wasn't a troll after all; just that I thought his parting shot a little contrived. I have never been one to shrink from rushing to conclusions; show me a top, and I'll cheerfully go over it. |
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"It's all in the egg".
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 03:53 AM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
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Say what you will, I think GDPQT has it about right with his statistics. He may even be a bit optimistic.
And his comment about most of the attainers never practicing occult arts I also tend to find true.
And Aum - I dig that pentagram! |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 04:17 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
GDPQT might be back jtm. . It would at least be the courteous thing to do, considering he did not really try to explain what he replaced all the tools and props with, or what he found that allowed him to dispense with the tools. Perhaps it was or is an experience that you just cannot put into words. At least some specifics would have been welcome, rather than just telling people “Let it all go”. I happen to fancy the tools and props, and will continue to use them so long as they work for me.
I am sure, there is always that method beyond all methods; and I am sure it is as uniquely singular in its “thusness” as we are so disposed to work on it.
I think some of this below also touches in some way on Kidneyhawk’s Praxis question.
That many of the systems (and numerous offshoots of basic Hindu and Buddhist teachings) when expounding their particular method of attainment, either denote the various “mystical states” such as the Big S and D, as being just signpost to chart one’s way, or as the goal in and of itself to be achieved, (such as always abiding in that ever aware state of absolute bliss. Of course we have been warned not to take the signpost for the place of destination.
The gist of the matter as I have come to understand it, ( I am far from an expert in the Hindu and Buddhist schools of thought, and am quite rusty in many areas of it) is that as one progresses, each particular state of mystical experience will become more pronounced as one continues on the path. For instance, the big S and D will become bigger S’s and D’s on the way of our going. Meaning of course that a static state however lovely, is not a state of true spirituality, If that were the case, we would be no thing other than some gray bearded unchanging sour puss quite content with ourselves in our state of odious omnificence. Thus we would be forever damning ourselves.
Now one may indeed reach a particular mystic state of consciousness where all the others are continuingly unfolding into bigger and bigger blooms of expansive awareness.
Thus one’s whole living experience is one never-ending life invoking orgasm of mental and spiritual growth! That I think is what Thelema has to offer with its eclectic beauty.
There is something in it for every aspiring adept, since it is all-inclusive in its scope. This would be applicable for those just embarking upon the path, and continuing from there.
Most every post yet has touched upon this in some way or the other, but I feel we have only scratched the surface.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 03:33 PM
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Son - your description of a 'static' spiritual state reminds me of some Buddhist descriptions of the various orders of beings, from the lower hungry ghosts etc and animals, through humans to demi-gods and gods. Being human is seen to be rather ... 'attractive' as it offers an escape from the blindness and ignorance of the lower forms, yet offers dynamy and change, unlike anything experienced by the gods. Because gods and even demi-gods are in a sense 'static'. They are what they are, beyond time.
So yes, experiences of the 'big S' and 'big D' (I love that) are only so blissful because they are bracketed by the 'dukkha' of life that goes on before and after them. As one becomes more and more enlightened, I'm afraid one becomes more and more tenuously associated with this reality and may just 'vanish' from the point of view of the rest of us.
This I believe is how humans 'ascend'. And if anyone's read Gravity's Rainbow, I'm pretty sure it's what happened to Tyrone Slothrop at the end. But I'm no expert. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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WillisNightwood |
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Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 05:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2007
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93,
Finding myself behind the curve in the concepts and practices of raja yoga I have dived head first into crowley's yoga material. It is a lot of material to digest but have basically figured out what to follow.
1. Asana: The pose I have adopted is the Dragon which in Liber E it is suggested to begin with half an hour to an hour which I find impossible in the beginning. I started with only 5 to 10 minutes and by adding slowly in time I have built up to being able to sit vaguely comfortable for 30 minutes. Although coming out of the pose I am almost completely paralyzed from the calves down and it takes some time before I have feeling and movement in my feet. I am slightly worried I might be doing damage to myself.
2. Pranayama: Liber E suggests alternate nostril breathing, Book 4 suggest mantras, and Liber RV has a whole host of exercises. From what I have gathered, physical benefits aside, the important part is to just regulate the breath as to still the mind and emotions. As such I just use the 4-fold breath counting in, hold, out, hold. Usually after 15 minutes of this I am able to stop counting and the breath stays regular. After about 20 minutes a lightness enters into my body and the mind seems to expand from the small place I usually think and reside in.
3. Dhrana: Liber E suggests using the tattwas then more complex shapes and moving fly wheels etc. Book 4 refers to these as "preliminary exercises" and suggests the first exercises should be on the chakras then later suggests the meditations in Liber HHH.
Obviously I should begin with preliminary exercises to prepare for the more complex work but not sure what that would entail. Do you just concentrate upon the chakras themselves? With the addition of the appropriate mantra such as LAM? Or fix our attention upon the pictures of the chakras? From the material to achieve Dhyana your attention must be fixed solely upon something and nothing else, but with the chakras being multiple do you just focus on one or just continuesly move up and down them? |
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Azidonis |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 07:57 PM
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WillisNightwood wrote: › 1. Asana: The pose I have adopted is the Dragon which in Liber E it is suggested to begin with half an hour to an hour which I find impossible in the beginning. I started with only 5 to 10 minutes and by adding slowly in time I have built up to being able to sit vaguely comfortable for 30 minutes. Although coming out of the pose I am almost completely paralyzed from the calves down and it takes some time before I have feeling and movement in my feet. I am slightly worried I might be doing damage to myself.
93,
In _Hathayoga Pradipika_ is a position called Savasana, which is generally recommended as a "cool down" posture.
93 93/93,
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WillisNightwood |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 08:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 28, 2007
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| Yes I make use of the corpse pose after asana. Or rather I lie there and wait on the pain to pass and feeling to return. lol |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 15, 2007 - 08:19 PM
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Folks - I would strongly advise actaully studying yoga. Reading your reports kind of scares me. I don't know anyone who's studied yoga for any less than 6 monhts who holds ANY asana for 15 minutes. This strikes me as a bit like starting to learning climbing by hanging yourself off a cliff from a rope. If you rise with numbness and pain, then you're not ready for that exercise!
Granted, I haven't read all of Crowley's material in this area, but keep in mind it's digested by a westerner who only studied these practices for mere WEEKS. Not months, but weeks. I'd advise a class or at least a book.... some of the most crucial aspects of pranayama and yoga, etc... do not come across well in writing. There is not substitute for a qualified teacher. You won't regret it. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Wizardiaoan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 05, 2007 - 04:39 AM
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444
I thought I would relate a Samadhi I had due to its particular nature: that entities appeared and that the method by which it was attained was through music, rather than by ritual, sex, or yoga.
My Samadhi at 21:
I was just familiar with the general literature of Magick at this time, being about a year or two into it. I was familiar with most of Crowley’s work by then. The night started off with about 5 of us taking 2 tabs of LSD each (these tabs had ankh’s & hearts on them). I had probably done LSD on 50 or so previous occasions by this time. As the LSD set in, I recall my friend Matt looking like the old witch pointing with his right hand the Way down the Path of Initiation. I think this was just more of a spontaneous magickal formation of some ancient Lovecraftian energies present, I’m not even sure he pointed or anything.
After some time passed, the 5 of us began free jamming musically. I was on a fairly cheap Casio keyboard, and the rest of the guys were on acoustic guitars, though I think one of them may have been drumming with sticks upon a table. From soon after the point we began to when the Samadhi occured is just one of trance in my mind; I think we jammed continuously for 3-4 hours straight. The nature of my keyboard playing stood out among the guitars, and was largely the creative driving force. It was often fast and frantic with large pitch changes. There was really no conscious magickal formula being followed (I was the only one that familiar with Magick there), the rapturous energy within us was just being naturally released the best way we could.
Sometime during the rapture the Samadhi occured, though I didn’t notice it happened until it was over. There was a complete annihilation of Self and consciousness to 0, or Nothingness. I think this state lasted for about 3 seconds. The first thing I remember is my awareness (soul spark perhaps) descending a dark black shaft. Then at the same time I regained consciousness the decision was made to laugh ecstatically at what had just occured. My sight regained me and I saw my friend Matt laughing just as I was. The spell seemed to be further broken by us both taking our individual pleasures (by laughing) upon what had just transpired.
Next, quite surprisingly to me at the time and clear as day, two etheric entities appeared of The Stellar Wisdom: perhaps 10’ in front of me, a white positive one was on my right, and a black negative one was on my left. The black negative one seemed below me (by sovereignty/quality of mind), and the white positive one seemed for a second above me (by the same), but looking it in the eyes I realized my spine/self was a bit weak in awe, and then I did Will my sovereignty over them. I rather wanted the Vision to continue at this moment and tried to keep it going, but they circled clockwise around the room and then vanished. I asked Matt if he saw them, and he said he did. I asked him again some months later, and he said he only saw the black one (which I interpreted a bit as an unbalanced obsession with the dark/negative). There was a dual Samadhi of my friend and I here; I asked the others if they saw the entities and they said no they did not, and neither did they attain Samadhi. After this, I gradually came down to a semi-normal consciousness. The effect of the Samadhi however had the effect of seemingly superconducting me, I felt extrememly lubricated and creative (my energies were very vibrant and shining), and wrote maybe 50 pages of creative writing. This effect lasted a couple of days, then I came back to a normal consciousness.
I have since realized that my Self attained ultimately in those seconds, and when I came down, I came down from the Ain to Malkuth. Thus as I was Kether (or Chokmah) I saw the two oppposite entities of Yin & Yang, the two basic universal principles. I have also realized that the whole thing was done in “love under will” in pure joy without any lust of result. Basically the Nuitian psychedelic kalas were in full force throughout the Working in retrospect. It has only occured to me recently that this was quite a rare attainment, for at the time it seemed the natural result of getting together psychedelically and letting the energies loose—a procedure that could be easily repeated with the same basic methods followed. I have since had many excellent mind states, but none so ultimate as this.
Only lately have I thought this attainment to be the nature of “The Supreme Ritual” mentioned in AL II:40, for there is no more ultimate or profound attainment possible than the complete annihilation of the Self to 0.
One final thing: I think it important to keep in mind that Self is God, and that all entities/Gods, such as Nuit & Hadit, exist within the Self (in so much that all reality is the Self). This is important because I think a lot of Western minds have been poisoned by Christianity, where God is seen external to Self, and is worshipped with no hope of ever attaining to Him. So a much healthier approach seems to me to be the basic attitude of Hinduism that Self is God, and direct experiencial knowledge of the God- Self can be achieved by raising Self to God-Self (whose ultimate identity is simply 0, or Nothingness.) Experiencially, when you raise yourself up you are God, when you come down you are you. So it really is all about Self awareness.
Also, I do not condone drugs as a substitute for daily ritual/meditation, anyone who's done a regimen of ritual followed by meditation for even a week can see its vast import.
*(edit)I have since realized that the 2 etheric entities that manifest as a result of the magickal energy accumulation when I came down from the Void to Sahasrara to Ajna (and down), were the 2 archetypes of Form, White & Black. They are attributed to Ajna's 2 petals, etc., and are actually symbolized by the 2 Great Pillars of The High Priestess card, being Boaz & Jachim.
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_________________
Wizardiaoan
Last edited by Wizardiaoan on Mar 08, 2008 - 05:36 AM; edited 1 time in total
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ROTHGATE |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 05, 2007 - 05:16 PM
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| It seems there may be a greater secret simply than the prostate milking of Yoni Tantra. A Freemason, a dirty old owl, whom is a friend of mine introduced me to this, a bit bizarre but not uncommon place for a Thelemite. The walls of the intestine quickly absorb blood as well as many other nutrients- an enema of menstrual blood, semen, and port wine seems to quickly release endorphins in the brain when used in this manner creating an effect similar to that of Samadhi (without having to go through the preliminary). The Great Secret of Solomon, the Templars, the Cathars, is definitly not for everyone, it is rather moreso a secret intended for the perverse, or so it may seem. |
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(SCRIBE "AKAD") ROTHGATE 527 V.II.VII.
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 05, 2007 - 08:14 PM
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Rothgate - ..... interesting. I've read things about amrita (female ejaculate) containing essentially spinal fluid of a very high purity which can have effects on the consumer (through whatever orifice). Hence the insistence by Christ that we be reborn/baptized in the spirit _and_ in the flesh. He wasn't emphasizing spirit, he was emphasizing flesh. Christ is a manifestation of the Dionysian love cult (IMHO). Find the bible passage (sorry don't have it in front of me) where a questioner literally asks him, 'surely you don't mean we must crawl back into the womb of a woman!?!?!' and he replies - yea verily. (or some such)
I would also put forth that prostate milking/massage is perhaps simpler than an enema of someone else's bodily fluids  But do what ya do my friend.
Wizariaoan - I will suggest that you analyze and ponder the various definitions and experiences of 'samadhi' and compare them to what you experienced. I experienced somethign loosely but definitely similar under LSD at an earlier age. An experience that was transformative and life-changing indeed, but something I did not call 'samadhi'. And when experienced what I do now call 'samadhi' much later in life, all I can say is that it was much different, and in a way, much simpler than what you and I experienced on LSD. Simply put, samadhi is empty bliss, or the blissful emptiness of non-duality. The fact that you experienced 'forms' or 'interactions' of any entity or identity argues for this having been a different type of experience.
Make no mistake, I'm not detracting from it, just clarifying terms. Sometimes we latch on to terms because we need one to identify something that happened. For my part, I never did find a term for my 'big' LSD experience. Identity-obliteration? Rebirth from zero? I actually experienced a gender change during the process (but woke up the same gender in the end ) Ghost walk? Dreamtime? Like you, I experienced forms, interactions, developments, degradations and re-integrations, leading to the eventual witnessing of my personhood being re-assembled before my 'eyes'. It took hours, but was probably not describable as 'blissful' entirely.... parts of it perhaps... |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 05, 2007 - 09:01 PM
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Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Wizariaoan - thanks for the post, I enjoyed reading it, but from what I understand, the general politics of this site don't support overly explicit descriptions, discussions and confessions of personal indulgences of this kind. There are other sites, such as Erowid and Lycaeum, for such discussions.
However, I'll quote this part:
Quote: › One final thing: I think it important to keep in mind that Self is God, and that all entities/Gods, such as Nuit & Hadit, exist within the Self (in so much that all reality is the Self). This is important because I think a lot of Western minds have been poisoned by Christianity, where God is seen external to Self, and is worshipped with no hope of ever attaining to Him. So a much healthier approach seems to me to be the basic attitude of Hinduism that Self is God, and direct experiencial knowledge of the God- Self can be achieved by raising Self to God-Self (whose ultimate identity is simply 0, or Nothingness.) Experiencially, when you raise yourself up you are God, when you come down you are you. So it really is all about Self awareness.
If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.
(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.) |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 06, 2007 - 12:00 AM
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I was under the impression that as long as one didn't babble upon the subject it was fine; but I do not propose to know the intricacies of what constitutes an acceptable post here. However, I do know that this is Paul's site, and that he has every right to delete it. It doesn't matter to me either way, as I am its author and have little to gain from it.
anpi wrote: › If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.
(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.)
Whether this is Crowley's thoughts or no, my reply is that if one believes everything to be an extension of the Self, it's impossible to say that anything is outside of it. I am aware of the debate of whether an evoked entity is to be considered a part of the psyche or an external independant being. My thoughts are that everything soever is a part of the God Self, which is one's highest Self, thus there really is nothing exterior to Self. I cannot help if a realization of this causes some misled souls to go off the deep end.
Here is Sri Ramana Maharshi's viewpoint:
http://www.hinduism.co.za/god.htm
I think a good summary might be that from the viewpoint of the normal individual/divided self the entities are outside, but from the viewpoint of the undivided God-Self the entites are inside.
Re jtm:
Yes I use the term Samadhi loosely, not technically. Heretofore, I have not been that impressed with all the different namings and grades of the trances (they just seem to add confusion), but let me look and see if I can find a name in the literature for it. I'll reply soon.
Ok, I have thought about it, and believe I described it well initially; you can label it as you will. I think this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God. There is no way this state could be sustained too long, for one I think it is proportional with the force that propelled one into it, but secondly one could not function without consciousness of some sort. Thus I think all sustained gnosi/trances must be imperfect realizations of this ultimate attainment. So 1.) I do not think a sustained complete unity with 0 is possible (in human incarnation), and 2.) any sustained trance where one does hold some semblance of awareness/consciousness is not a complete (thus imperfect) unity with 0. |
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Wizardiaoan
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 06, 2007 - 07:42 PM
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I will only argue with the assertion that "this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God". By definition, it is impossible to ever make that assertion. I at one point was inclined to think that, but later experiences left that one far in the dust. I can just say that the 'truth' to me is that the nature of reality is limitless love and light, and nothing else (that is to say, everything is included and part of this). Thus an 'ultimate attainment' is the dissolution of self completely - the cessation of ego and even time itself. The ultimate attainment would render your participation on an internet chat board quite pointless!
I've attained quite highly myself. Each time requires hours, and lately days, to ... unfortunately, to allow oneself to come back down to the usual realm of human psyche. Without retreating to an ashram or hermitage, this is only necessary. It is quite imaginable to stay there, to continue practice, but there are earthly affairs (and people) that require my time. I'm no Boddhisattva, but let's just say that the life path I've followed thus far precludes my full-time practice of full awareness, now that I know how it's done. Perhaps one day when I'm older and taken care of my earthly responsibilities... or perhaps in my next reincarnation I'll get to start off near where I've gotten to this time around.... |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 06, 2007 - 07:44 PM
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| Basically, while you're alive and confined to incarnation, there will always be a higher attainment to achieve. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 06, 2007 - 10:11 PM
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You have misinterpreted me jtm; I did not and do not claim to be the continuous recipient of the ultimate attainment, this is where the ascetics have got me beat. I only assert that at one point in time I attained ultimately to complete unity with 0: my Self was raised to Infinite Selfhood (God & Kether), and then that itself was completely annihilated into 0 for 3 or so seconds. You can disagree with me and say that there is a higher attainment, but how can there be anything higher than complete annihliation with 0? Your "limitless love and light" is God & Kether, these qualities are then themselves ultimatley destroyed in absolute 0, Nothingness: this is the highest nature of God. The only thing that would be higher is if the duration of the trance was increased and sustained.
Here is a model that might help my explanation: my method above was as a mountain with steep slopes, whereas a Jnani such as Sri Ramana Maharshi's is like a plateau. He stays in a plateau of continuous God/Kether realized trance, while I began lower and built up a vast amount of energy which did not slow down when I reached the summit of God/Kether, but plummeted me into complete annihilation with the Ain as 0. Due to this immense accumulation of energy (both built up during the Working and as like the Big Bang when I came out of 0), the two entities representing duality then formed as I began coming down from the trance, as the first manifestations of Form.
Thus the minor critique I have with the Ramana Maharshi's methods is that simple meditation perhaps is not enough to propel one into ultimate dissolution to 0. There seems to be a necessary great rapture and raising of Self with enough force so that Self will ultimately supernova and be completely annihilated. And I notice that many classic methods do not really do that, but aim towards a continuous happy plateau of unity/emptiness, etc., where there in all cases is some degree or semblance of consciousness/awareness present.
So yes if you want to get really ascetic there are always higher levels of continuous consciousness, but there is also a way to shoot yourself to the moon in one go as it were (and one method for so doing is described above). |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 07, 2007 - 10:08 AM
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93
This reminds me of an arguement I once had with and old friend about why there isn't a simple pill one could take, or a short cut to Enlightenment. Of course, the more I tried to explain why there wasn't one, the more she pressed and failed to understand.
Two months later she publicly took the Oath of the Abyss, and has been lost in a muddle since.
93 93/93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 07, 2007 - 12:26 PM
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Hi Wiz. I'm honestly not trying for a 'no you didn't/yes you did' argument here. No argument at all in fact. I'm just always wary when I hear someone claim that something they experienced was the highest attainment. It's tempting to hold your experience up against what books and teachers and systems and symbols _say_ is the highest attainment, for there are connections that are tempting. But remember that all these systems, including the number system itself (1 and zero) are teaching symbols. I can just say that your experience sounds much like something I had earlier in my path, which I've since superceded and learned beyond. I don't know how old you are or what your praxis history is, but I would venture to say that if you stay on the path and keep practicing you'll learn that the experiences you have _without_ drugs will put this experience in the backseat.
In the way of Azidonis' post, .... it really is impossible to try to discuss these things, whether in writing or speech, which is why most don't. The experiences are inner - the converstions can thus only be about techniques and tools; unless the conversation is with your teacher. Your teacher will know where you're at intimately and you will know that your teacher knows where you're at, and you'll know that s/he's been farther. This is the core of the teacher relationship.
So I'm assuming nothing about your experience - you may have ascended completely for all I know. I just caution against talk of absolutes in everything, as possibly the biggest mistake to make in anything. As the Zen koan says "If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him". Because the Buddha you think you see isn't the real Buddha. I would suggest reading the Diamond Sutra along these lines. If you think you've experienced the highest attainment, this is actually not a good sign. You're not 'wrong', but it's best to continue practicing, and even find a new (the next) type of practice for yourself.
Finally, 'ascetic'.... 'ascetics' aren't necessarily the ones with the highest attainment, or the means to such. Gautama himself discovered this, and it is the foundation of that practice called Buddhism, and it is the basis of tantra, which is the high road to enlightenment in this incarnation. It is specifically _not_ asceticism. Asceticism is a good path, but it is a long one without a hope of enlightenment in this or any near future incarnation. Ascetics are specifically not interested in enlightenment in itself, but in readiness for enlightenment. So - don't think that ascetics have anything on the likes of us, or that you're limited because you enjoy the world.
Look up the tradition of 'ngakpa' if you don't already know about it. It is the tradition of householder/practitioner in Tibetan Buddhism. They are essentially monks without the vows of chastity and poverty. They marry, have children, and are part of the community. In my eversohumble opinion it (or a path like it) is the best path for modern American/western mystics. It offers the tools of sexual energy, which are by far the most powerful. This middle path is easily the most conducive to enlightenment in our age/time/culture. You will find results through this path that stagger the imagination and shed new light on all material you've read thus far, as it seems you've read a bit.
Thanks for putting up with and actually reading my boring diatribes. It's great to have attained something. I'm encouraging you to find out that it's only the beginning. Not just mastering the ability to return there, but to go much farther and expand your footprint in reality.
Kundalini. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 08:53 AM
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Joined: May 26, 2007
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Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Wizardiaoan wrote: ›
anpi wrote: › If you'll read Crowley's Magick Without Tears, towards the end you'll see him arguing hardly that the things you invoke are "outside of you" and "objective" entities and that it is, for example, better to think that you invoked Zeus than to think that you yourself became a superman. The reasoning behind this seems to be that if you think they're external to you, your ego won't grow huge like John Holmes, etc. Then again, after comparing Crowley to the Eastern saints I know of, it definitely seems that Crowley himself had issues of this kind more than them, and it makes you think.
(I admit right now that the above description is based on what I read in MWT years ago and I may have got a slightly wrong impression on some details, but I think I got the general idea right.)
Whether this is Crowley's thoughts or no, my reply is that if one believes everything to be an extension of the Self, it's impossible to say that anything is outside of it. I am aware of the debate of whether an evoked entity is to be considered a part of the psyche or an external independant being. My thoughts are that everything soever is a part of the God Self, which is one's highest Self, thus there really is nothing exterior to Self. I cannot help if a realization of this causes some misled souls to go off the deep end.
Yes, I don't know if I agree with Crowley on this, it's just interesting that he argues so hard for this position in Magick Without Tears, instead of being ambivalent like in many of his other writings. Personally I can also see how many people in modern society can head towards the deep end if they take the abnormal functioning of their brain as an external spirit or angel giving them instructions.
Quote: ›
Ok, I have thought about it, and believe I described it well initially; you can label it as you will. I think this experience is the ultimate attainment and the most intrinsic nature of God. There is no way this state could be sustained too long, for one I think it is proportional with the force that propelled one into it, but secondly one could not function without consciousness of some sort. Thus I think all sustained gnosi/trances must be imperfect realizations of this ultimate attainment. So 1.) I do not think a sustained complete unity with 0 is possible (in human incarnation), and 2.) any sustained trance where one does hold some semblance of awareness/consciousness is not a complete (thus imperfect) unity with 0.
BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment? |
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in 1° 
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in 13° 
: Anno IVxviii 
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