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Azidonis |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 09:43 AM
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93,
anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?
It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms, I'll say "Waking", "Mystical", and "Dream". (Please don't bother me with Wake World switches right now, I know the futilities of the terms waking and dream.)
"Waking" Consciousness is a state in which we are "awake", walking around, moving in phsyical reality. Our minds are alert and aware, and we react to the constant stimuli that are presented to us.
During "Mystical" Consciousnes, ie. Meditation, the external "physical world" is shut off. However, our awareness and consciousness are still very much in tact, and working at normal waking capacity. The main difference is the complete lack of outer stimuli.
During "Dream" Consciousness, there are no outer stimuli (generally), but the awareness and memory functions of the mind are in an extremely relaxed state, therefore 'unconscious'.
A few things to consider then: inner stimuli, outer stimuli, awareness, memory, and retainment. The "Closed eyed" or "Mystical" Consciousness is definitely the balance of the two. Thus, I would think that as these three classifications of mental states are very distinct, the individual experiences witnessed and participated in during these distinct modes is just that - individual and unique to each mode.
It's just a theory.
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 04:36 PM
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Azidonis wrote: › 93,
anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?
It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms, I'll say "Waking", "Mystical", and "Dream". (Please don't bother me with Wake World switches right now, I know the futilities of the terms waking and dream.)
"Waking" Consciousness is a state in which we are "awake", walking around, moving in phsyical reality. Our minds are alert and aware, and we react to the constant stimuli that are presented to us.
During "Mystical" Consciousnes, ie. Meditation, the external "physical world" is shut off. However, our awareness and consciousness are still very much in tact, and working at normal waking capacity. The main difference is the complete lack of outer stimuli.
During "Dream" Consciousness, there are no outer stimuli (generally), but the awareness and memory functions of the mind are in an extremely relaxed state, therefore 'unconscious'.
A few things to consider then: inner stimuli, outer stimuli, awareness, memory, and retainment. The "Closed eyed" or "Mystical" Consciousness is definitely the balance of the two. Thus, I would think that as these three classifications of mental states are very distinct, the individual experiences witnessed and participated in during these distinct modes is just that - individual and unique to each mode.
It's just a theory.
93 93/93
That is not Mystical consciousness, that is Waking consciousness shut off from stimuli. Your definitoin of Mystical and Waking consciousness are not different at all except by degree of how well you think you arent paying attention to the stimuli you normally are. Also, this isnt a 'balance' betwee nwaking and dream at all, since youd pretty much be half-unconscious if you struck a balance between those two. Further, you have no idea whether dream consciousness takes in external stimuli (in my experience it does, but simply changes their interpretation... i.e. the famous dog licking you is a girl kissing you in the dream) and you just assume you dont.
Mystical consciosuness I would say is superconsciousness - the non-dual state of awareness known variously by many many names (and hinted at in many Thelemic books like when it is said "I am alone...") This truly is a different state of consciousness, not differentiated by the amount of exteernal stimuli that reach your awareness. In this sense you might say there are four, though I would stil lsay only three: Dream, Waking, "Samadhi" (or some other term). Unconscious, Conscious, Superconscious. Meditative consciousness is just a focusing of the conscious (most people are more asleep than awake in their conscious state, Gurdjieff and others would say).
65 & 210,
111-418 |
_________________
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-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 04:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 02, 2006
Posts: 259
Location: New York
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93
Quote: › It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms...
The Mandukya Upanishad lists them as Vaisvanara Atman (activity in the waking state), Taijasa Atman (activity in the dream state), and Prajna Atman (deep sleep). Together, they comprise a description of AUM.
These Hindu texts are absolute treasures. It's so nice to revisit them! I attended a Bhaghavad Gita yagna (spiritual reading of the Gita) with an Agni (fire) ritual at a Hindu temple last night. Absolutely beautiful!
John
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 06:18 PM
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Proteus wrote: › 93
Quote: › It would appear that there are at least three distinct states of awareness in the common mind. For lack of better terms...
The Mandukya Upanishad lists them as Vaisvanara Atman (activity in the waking state), Taijasa Atman (activity in the dream state), and Prajna Atman (deep sleep). Together, they comprise a description of AUM.
These Hindu texts are absolute treasures. It's so nice to revisit them! I attended a Bhaghavad Gita yagna (spiritual reading of the Gita) with an Agni (fire) ritual at a Hindu temple last night. Absolutely beautiful!
John
93 93/93
AUM is explained as 3 states as well, surrounded by the sound of Silence (the 4th sound)... this shows Crowley didnt truly understand AUM when he changed it to AUMGN (or he simply wanted to change it up a little). Hindu texts are in deed absolute treasures. I am so glad you read these and attended that ritual.
I have to say that Upanishad isnt 'final' or 'authoritative' as tehre are other slightly different opinions in different upanishads (even the purusha vs. atman changes from upanishad to upanishad. We cant really fathom how far apart they were written, imagine if one THelemic holy book was written in 1500 and one in 1900...)
65 & 210,
111-418 |
_________________
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-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 07:23 PM
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| I once read a metaphoric description of AUM as - first, the ripples and waves disturbing the top of the water - then, the liquidity and full immersion in the enveloping water - then, the solid earth at the bottom of the water - and last, the unheard sound, the nondual reality, or the 'zero' in this discussion. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 10:48 PM
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Wizard...
From my personal experiences, I would not put too much credence on drug induced states. After all, since you were on LSD your perceptions were not normal. You were yourself, and not yourself. So what might have been destroyed was your "not-Self" or rather your Self that was on the drug. Hopefully that made some sense 
My own experiences with Samadhi or what I would term that were entirely different. What exactly happened is not something I can put into words, but its after effects were certainly noticeable. Like a babe just pushed into the world... |
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There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 09, 2007 - 11:36 PM
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jtm wrote: ›
For the Buddhists and Buddhist scholars out there, this is one way in which I envision the '3 jewels'. Buddha = inner buddha nature - 'true will', the will to become god and achieve peace. Sangha = those who have studied before me and left me something, and who study and work now in my time. Dharma = the teachings: wisdom and skillful means of the masters and teachers who went before and who are now.
I agree except I see Dharma as True Will and Buddha as True Self, the Sangha as the Universe and especially those who tread the path before me. Dharma is one's will in line with the universal will, so one is doing one's 'cosmic duty.' Teachings are a finger pointing to the moon.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
_________________
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-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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Wizardiaoan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 08:19 AM
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I find it slightly bizarre that there would be so much commentary upon my personal interpretation of my personal "Samadhi" experience, perhaps I should have posted it on Erowid... Anyway, my interpretation still stands; if you don't agree that's fine (and you are free to cite why): but be well assured I do not need nor ask for advice on this issue. Not sure what gave the impression that I was overly attached to it or was being misled by it; also to label it a "drug experience" is foolish, if anything the substance imbibed just opened me up and gave me more energy as a driving Will. If any of you have done intense pranayama after getting high on whatever intoxicant, you will note how little the drug affects deep interior consciousness, they all mostly just affect the exterior self.
anpi wrote: › BTW, absolute zero seems to imply that there won't be any type of sensations whatsoever. So, if I fall into a deep non-REM sleep or get knocked off, is this state any different from the state of the ultimate attainment or unity with 0, if we forget the stuff that happened before and after the attainment?
When my "Samadhi" to 0 did occur, I do note that I did not fall limp on the floor, whatever this may imply lol. I think Aum 418's description as "Unconscious-Conscious-Superconsciousness" is pretty good. I would however assert that some mystical practices are designed to unite the Conscious with the Unconsciousness, such as more relaxation type exercises. But the Low-Middle-High schema is pretty good. The Superconsciousness activities seem to include a pin-pointing of concentration and awareness of Self, and in general will be more energetic.
I do know that the Superconscious attainment to 0 is quite different than the normal non-rem state of nothingness, but cannot explain it well. In the former, one is very pin-pointed yet has forgotten all, and is just energetically and exhaustively permutating Self (to keep balancing it), and then there is an amazing polar shift from All to Nothing that occurs. In the latter there is a lax drifting into sleep. In both there is a rebirth and revivifying of Self. There may actually be no difference, I am simply not sure; it's a question I have asked myself as well. Since 0 has to be the same non-experience, I do not think it would make sense to postulate two different states of 0. So I think this state may be achieved every night by the unconscious route. Yet to be able to attain it superconsciously is quite unique; I do note that this requires an intense process of awareness, concentration, and balancing which simply falling asleep does not.
Upon death it seems most likely that one will be dissovled into 0, which upon any awareness the outer sheath of which will seem is ecstasy and peace unutterable, according to AL I:58.
PS. Upon going to sleep last night I noticed the Unconscious and Superconscious methods might be categorized as Solve and Coagula. To go to sleep/relax, one is trying to unwind/dissolve/circumferencize(lol) Self; in a Superconscious method one will be trying more to wind oneself tightly up to a quintessential point. But "The Quintessence of The Universal is Nothing," so the end result is unity with the Ain. |
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Wizardiaoan
Last edited by Wizardiaoan on Sep 10, 2007 - 05:14 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Azidonis |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 02:17 PM
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93 AUM,
Alright, you got me...
Aum418 wrote: ›
That is not Mystical consciousness, that is Waking consciousness shut off from stimuli. Your definitoin of Mystical and Waking consciousness are not different at all except by degree of how well you think you arent paying attention to the stimuli you normally are.
So what you are saying is that it's the same thing, but I'm just ignoring physical stimuli? And if that's the case I suppose there is a point where physical stimuli simply "do not exist"? Wouldn't this imply that one is basically ingoring it until it goes away, which would only be a more advanced state of ignoring stimuli?
Quote: ›
Also, this isnt a 'balance' betwee nwaking and dream at all, since youd pretty much be half-unconscious if you struck a balance between those two. Further, you have no idea whether dream consciousness takes in external stimuli (in my experience it does, but simply changes their interpretation... i.e. the famous dog licking you is a girl kissing you in the dream) and you just assume you dont.
I said generally. Of course there are external stimuli that effect one's "dream consciousness". It doesn't happen all of the time, but it does happen, which is why I said generally. This is a simple overlap.
Quote: ›
Mystical consciosuness I would say is superconsciousness - the non-dual state of awareness known variously by many many names (and hinted at in many Thelemic books like when it is said "I am alone...") This truly is a different state of consciousness, not differentiated by the amount of exteernal stimuli that reach your awareness. In this sense you might say there are four, though I would stil lsay only three: Dream, Waking, "Samadhi" (or some other term). Unconscious, Conscious, Superconscious. Meditative consciousness is just a focusing of the conscious (most people are more asleep than awake in their conscious state, Gurdjieff and others would say).
65 & 210,
111-418
So what you are essentially saying is that what I labeled "Waking Consciousness" is the same as what I labeled "Mystical Consciousness", with the only difference being the active perception of outer stimuli, and the "Dream Consciousness" is only a dream until it is affected by external stimuli? Yet there is a fourth arena of consciousness in which all of this is superceded, thus the term Superconsciousness?
Also, on my first acid trip (1997) I watched all of the clouds turn into Angels and begin flying as a flock across the sky. Should I have then labeled them as the Choir of Malkuth, with the largest one being Sandalphon? Okay Wiz, maybe that was a low blow... However, I must commend you, for you are only one of two people that I've met that has recounted an experience they firmly and educatively believed was Samadhi, and the only one I know to have done it publicly. Be that as it may, the word public is a key, and your post is subject to many different viewpoints - publicly. It's okay, relax. It's for clarification and learning purposes, all of it, and doesn't change what you feel about your own experience. I commend your brevity.
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 02:45 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
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Wiz, Az : (lotta 'z's... hehe)
Az's comment about people talking about their samahdi experiences is about like what I was going to say. Wiz - your comment about it being or not being a 'drug experience' is an important one. I think when you attain this far or farther without drugs (presuming you haven't), I think you'll see clearly the difference. But here I have to fall back to Az's comment about the inexplicability. All my exchanges with seekers/attainers have been along the lines of knowing smiles : knowing that we share something that we can't explain, and that no other people could fathom, but also knowing that talking about it, even to each other, would be futile. Were the experiences similar? Moot point. Were the samadhi or dhyana or nibbana? Moot point. Sounds simplistic and counter-intuitive compared to the traditions, but all these experiences are 'inner'. Other people's explanations of their experiences are similarly 'inner' for the hearer, whether recognized as such or not.
We are now dancing around the reason why, in the worlds mystical traditions, there is so little open talk about what it is we are attaining to. And also why the traditions are secret, and kept in teacher-student relationships. The talking about the attainment can quickly become a distraction and division as bad as television or junk food. My partner and I have had similar experiences _together_ and even we don't bother to try to describe or analyze them with each other, beyond certain .... identifying characteristics that tell us that yes, she was where I was, and I was where she was. That tells us enough, and we both 'know'.
This all sounds terribly 'inside' to someone seeking, and even arrogant and elitist, and kind of like you-don't-know-what-you're-talking-about-you-neophyte. But - you are on the right track. Drugs can pry the door open. But what's beyond the door is waaaayyyyy beyond drugs. I can confidently say you have not experienced the highest attainment. Why can I say that? That's another one of those things, which you'll probably agree with at some point if you keep up your practice.
And I have to go back to your talk about pranayama while on intoxicants - it may be true, but your description was about playing music while on acid. Thus you were not calm, were not totally relaxed, and were not entirely focused and clear-minded. And I doubt anyone, even an ascended master, can play an instrument while attaining to the 'highest' enlightenment simultaneously. Sure, there are writings about 'spontaneous' samadhi events, but again - your description sounds like something inspiring, but I'm pretty sure it was the acid. I and many others who've done LARGE amounts of PURE acid have had experiences that make yours sound mundane, while doing nothing but meditating. And even that wasn't any kind of attainment - it was an acid trip. Big diff.
Sorry to sound elitist. I don't mean to be. I seriously want more people to attain. The more people attain, the better and more enjoyable and open my life becomes. The keys are self-mind-control, diet/fitness(self-body-control), and agape.
Keep at it.
Oh, and Uni_Verse :
great point about the after effects. This is probably the telltale sign that you've attained (anything) - it rewires you in a significant undeniable way, that perhaps people around you notice. It may even alter the laws of probability with respect to your fortunes. This latter effect will only stay with you while you maintain the attained state through practice - something excruciatingly difficult for us westerners and our lifestyles. Perhaps even impossible. But even this change in wiring is diffucult to explain and just sounds smarmy and hippyish to uninitiated hearers - the universe is love and unity, everything is light, happiness and fulfillment can only be attained through fulfilling another, etc... (whether that other is a deity, a tantric partner, or humanity in general)
This is the ultimate nature of enlightenment. But while we're bound to things and people here in the world, the experience must be temporary, perhaps because we know that our disappearance (final attainment) would actually leave our loved ones sad and empty. The Buddha (like all ascended masters) was able to gradually dissolve all emotional ties and ascend, permanently, in a way that damaged no one. |
_________________
* * * * *
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 04:04 PM
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93 Azidonis,
Azidonis wrote: ›
So what you are saying is that it's the same thing, but I'm just ignoring physical stimuli?
Yes.
Quote: › And if that's the case I suppose there is a point where physical stimuli simply "do not exist"?
I dont know why you would make final statements about the nature of existence of matter and such.... at a certain point, physical stimuli 'do not exist' "to you" as in they might as well not exist since you arent perceiving/registering them. This is called 'pratyahara' in Yoga.
Quote: › Wouldn't this imply that one is basically ingoring it until it goes away, which would only be a more advanced state of ignoring stimuli?
If meditation is 'basically ignoring it' then I guess... it requires a bit more work than that phrase implies. Its more like a focus on one thing overrides the distractions on other things.
Quote: › So what you are essentially saying is that what I labeled "Waking Consciousness" is the same as what I labeled "Mystical Consciousness", with the only difference being the active perception of outer stimuli
Exactly.
Quote: › , and the "Dream Consciousness" is only a dream until it is affected by external stimuli?
No... I didnt see a problem with your labeling of 'Dream Consciousness' - just the fact that you assumed (or generally assumed as I understand now) that Dream Consciousness has no connection with perception of external stimuli.
Quote: › Yet there is a fourth arena of consciousness in which all of this is superceded, thus the term Superconsciousness?
I dont like the idea 'superceded' here for some reason. The other states aren't 'superceded' they are just different. Crowley once said that Dreaming : Waking :: Waking : Samadhi, i.e. Waking consciousness appears to look like a deep slumber compared to the (super)consciousness of Samadhi.
Quote: › Also, on my first acid trip (1997) I watched all of the clouds turn into Angels and begin flying as a flock across the sky. Should I have then labeled them as the Choir of Malkuth, with the largest one being Sandalphon?
Theres a difference between perceiving external physical hallucinations and perceiving a shift in one's consciousness itself (and the ego). A feeling of dissolution of ego is on a little bit of a different scale than observing images in the clouds.
Quote: › Okay Wiz, maybe that was a low blow... However, I must commend you, for you are only one of two people that I've met that has recounted an experience they firmly and educatively believed was Samadhi, and the only one I know to have done it publicly. Be that as it may, the word public is a key, and your post is subject to many different viewpoints - publicly. It's okay, relax. It's for clarification and learning purposes, all of it, and doesn't change what you feel about your own experience. I commend your brevity.
93 93/93
Agreed.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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tazadinath |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 05:23 PM
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The Zen state 'tightens the drum' of my waking awarness. Periods of prolonged relaxed bio-feedback and sense dep combine to create a super sensitivity to stimuli, internal or external. I've read an overwhelming number of accounts where the impact of some trivial stimulus cascaded into an experience of kensho or samadhi, especially after a period of prolonged intense practice. This has been my experience, Crowley wrote about how 'holier men than he' would attend a 'bottle party' after an intense period of austerity.
If you told me about the jam session after 10 days of hard core zen practice with some specific aims and resulting detailed realizations I'd go 'Oh! Hell yeah! Good Show.". But these out of the blue vagueries smell of 'short-cut-ism' [tm new word here folks]. Also familuarity with the glossary of one or more traditional meditative traditions can help youself and others better gauge and understand your level af attainment and provides a better frame of reference for the rest of us unenlightened sods. |
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A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
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Wizardiaoan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 06:38 PM
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Re jtm:
That was actually a frank reply which I liked; though I do disagree. However the after-effects being a part of an attainment I do agree with.
Music took the place of meditation in my cited method jtm, you obviously cannot wrap your head around it being potent enough to do so, but this was actually the major point of why I posted this method. Some will disagree with you that music cannot produce calmness, relaxation, focus, or clearmindedness in its various forms, particularly upon the person playing it. The Form I played that night was fast like John McLaughlin's fusion, which produced an inner calm and balance through its exhaustive relentless permutation. Then there was the unity and harmony of consciousness between 5 individuals. This for 3 or 4 hours was as an intense a concentration/meditation exercise as any. The nature of it was essentially Bhakti yoga, an enflaming of oneself in prayer.
Note also I have never said that I recommend this method over others. In fact in my first post I noted that it should not take the place of daily meditation/ritual practice. I feel like I'm having to write my same post over and over.
Re Azidonis:
I realize that it is up for public scrutiny, and people are free to draw their own conclusions as both to my interpreted attainment and the viability of this method, I was just wishing to curb the advice part. I do not myself need to be told "to be careful" with drugs, or other trite remarks, etc. I'm fine, trust me. Stick to criticisms of my interpretations/views, save Paul some kilobytes 
Re Taz:
Your critique seems to be that I did not commence the Working with "specific aims", and I did not leave it with "detailed realizations". But Pure Will has no purpose, my simple aim was to create and revel in immense ecstasy, to shape that ecstasy as diamond perfect as possible. My "detailed realization" was unity to 0, I'm sorry I did not ascertain the nature of the dark matter of physics. My point is there is little more of greater import to realize or experience than this. Now please save me the triteness of countering with words to the effect that "if you think you've nothing left to learn, then you've got a lot to learn." I am not saying that. |
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Wizardiaoan
Last edited by Wizardiaoan on Sep 11, 2007 - 01:13 AM; edited 1 time in total
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 07:06 PM
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Music is something I have found to be an extremely useful tool in my meditative practices.
You can listen to a song so many times and then it comes on while meditating and opens up doorways you never imagined...
The best part, is that you can easily return to the "attained" state by simply listening to it again! |
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You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2007 - 10:11 PM
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Wiz - very good point about music. I have a degree and played fusion myself for a long time. Mahavishnu is just spectacular stuff.
Playing music is indeed one of the most powerful tools available. So I'll qualify my comments to say that to actually use it for advanced goals, beyond 'general practice', requires much experience and mastership. Perhaps this is where you are after all. The differentiation I make is like the practice of Hatha Yoga for general 'tuning up', on a regular basis, versus using an advanced technique like a tantra or a puja or an invokation to actually ... let's say 'make something happen'. For some, though, the Hatha Yoga itself becomes a method of attainment, and 'happening'.
I hope this metaphor isnt' stretched the the breaking point. I hope you continue and attain further, by whatever methods you choose. |
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* * * * *
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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Wizardiaoan |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 11, 2007 - 02:11 AM
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jtm wrote: › Wiz - very good point about music. I have a degree and played fusion myself for a long time. Mahavishnu is just spectacular stuff.
Then for shame that you dismissed this method so! I like Al di Meola in this vein too. Also, check out the dvd "Concert for George (Harrison)," there is an amazing Indian orchestral piece on it, arranged by Ravi Shankar and his daughter that I'm sure Crowley would have loved (to bring this thread slightly back with the forum's vision lol). Indian music is amazingly God-realized, like their whole culture. Here is an excerpt from a recent e-mail from David Hulse (that I post unknowingly & without permission from him, mwahaha!):
"I have taught in groups for many years off and on. I have lectured in public. I have never, ever reached the essence level of the group as I do when I play my [Tibetan]bells with one pointed devotion. It is truly an awakening experience for all who hear the bells. And I am just a facilitator with the bells. They need me to bring their voice out, but they guide me every step of the way on my performance."
So I just think the music method needs explored more. Its most obvious advantage is that it can awaken multiple people, perhaps even en masse. This would be hard to do via sex magick (a mile long 69 would be rather akward), and group meditation/ritual might fail to be conjoined enough.
My critique of most music is that it is song oriented, which can never explore the spontaneity needed to attain success in this method, although songs are quite enjoyable/archetypal. Even Indian music is content to reach a high plateau of joy and god-realization, but does not break from its form to address and equilibrate the particular moment at hand.
jtm wrote: › The differentiation I make is like the practice of Hatha Yoga for general 'tuning up', on a regular basis, versus using an advanced technique like a tantra or a puja or an invokation to actually ... let's say 'make something happen'. For some, though, the Hatha Yoga itself becomes a method of attainment, and 'happening'.
I hope this metaphor isnt' stretched the the breaking point. I hope you continue and attain further, by whatever methods you choose.
I was wondering if you could try to clarify the point you were trying to make here, I'm really not getting much out of it.
Peace, |
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Wizardiaoan
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Posted: Sep 11, 2007 - 12:20 PM
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93,
A song that enlightens the masses... joy! Now all we have to do is hook it up at Time Square and play it on New Year's... half the American population could become instantly enlightened!
Couldn't help myself... 
93 93/93 |
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Wizardiaoan |
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Posted: Sep 11, 2007 - 06:38 PM
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| I am beginning to wonder if you are capable of saying anything useful. You can help yourself by actually retaining the content of people's posts. For in mine I critiqued that the musical form of song is unlikely to lead to total success, and that the specific form will have to change to address the paricular moment. Thus the form that will lead to success is not a song and will vary from Working to Working. |
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Wizardiaoan
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Posted: Sep 11, 2007 - 08:30 PM
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What I was trying to say with the Hatha Yoga 'analogy' is best put within the paradigm of music, since we've arrived at some common territory. The email you cite is apropos, and demonstrates that music is a great tool for practice, and a great too to help others find insight/inspiration/illumination. But this conversation started around your assertion of a certain attainment - an 'absolute' or 'highest' attainment. Now there are exceptions to every rule, BUT -generally speaking music is used in the above way - an exercise, a practice, a honing tool for self control (bodily, motor, mind, sensory...), and not generally as a path to absolute attainment. The highest attainments are generally done with focused inner practices, after having used techniques _like_ music, hatha yoga, visualization, etc... to train the mind to get out of the way.
In any case, conversations like this get pedantic quickly. My original point was merely to beware of thinking you've experienced the highest attainment. You respectfully disagree. I respectfully respect your respectful disagreement, else I'll start asking questions like 'who are you' and 'how old are you' and 'what is your practice history', etc... etc...
And so the topic has likely run its course. |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 03:27 AM
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jtm wrote: ›
great point about the after effects. This is probably the telltale sign that you've attained (anything) - it rewires you in a significant undeniable way, that perhaps people around you notice. It may even alter the laws of probability with respect to your fortunes. This latter effect will only stay with you while you maintain the attained statethrough practice
I like this idea alot especially the part about bending the laws of probability. Intuitively I feel I've always recognized it but never put it into words. The dice do seem to roll a little differently after a breakthrough. Kinda like getting lucky. |
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A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 12:19 PM
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I've thought of it almost as bending the probability trampoline 'in' towards oneself. The analogy that comes to my mind is the way that massive objects 'bend space' 'toward' themselves, causing things 'going by' to tend to move toward them on the way by. Somehow advancing ones consciousness level causes such a dip in .... probability? Probability probably isn't the right word. I think it has more to do with the tendencies of sentient beings, and the things that attract them to act. True Will perhaps. But practicing without intention, or 'goal', makes general attraction happen. I don't practice much with focused intention, but I would imagine this is how directed magick works. I've found that the few times I've practied focused intention (through a sigil for example), the results can be surprising but may take time and may not seem like they were brought about by the practice (sigil, ...). I think there is likely a 'moment of inertia' to overcome when trying to make specific things happen where they concern sentient beings. When unfocused, the forces will affect the many small things with small moments of inertia. Like making people introduce themselves to you, or making traffic lights green ...  |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 04:38 PM
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jtm wrote: › I've thought of it almost as bending the probability trampoline 'in' towards oneself. The analogy that comes to my mind is the way that massive objects 'bend space' 'toward' themselves, causing things 'going by' to tend to move toward them on the way by. Somehow advancing ones consciousness level causes such a dip in .... probability? Probability probably isn't the right word. I think it has more to do with the tendencies of sentient beings, and the things that attract them to act. True Will perhaps. But practicing without intention, or 'goal', makes general attraction happen. I don't practice much with focused intention, but I would imagine this is how directed magick works. I've found that the few times I've practied focused intention (through a sigil for example), the results can be surprising but may take time and may not seem like they were brought about by the practice (sigil, ...). I think there is likely a 'moment of inertia' to overcome when trying to make specific things happen where they concern sentient beings. When unfocused, the forces will affect the many small things with small moments of inertia. Like making people introduce themselves to you, or making traffic lights green ...
Is it possible that your perception of conflict is simply lessened and so things appear to be running more smoothly? I find it extremely silly to think that attainment alters any fundamental natural law - I can only fathom that it would alter our perception thereof (i.e. you seem to not find much that is conflicting, or you feel your life is more flowy) |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 05:19 PM
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 05:32 PM
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jtm wrote: › The highest attainments are generally done with focused inner practices, after having used techniques _like_ music, hatha yoga, visualization, etc... to train the mind to get out of the way.
Ok jtm, I am wondering then what "focused inner practices" more specifically you would think to be a suitable method for reaching the higher attainments (traditional or otherwise)?
P.S. As far as the after effects of attainment and really yoga/spiritual practice in general, I think it might be eventually proven that there is a neural rewiring going on in the brain (if it hasn't been proven already). This might in effect make one more of a chalice for the enlightenment kalas. |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 05:43 PM
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| Zazen's a good starter. |
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Aum418 |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 05:45 PM
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tazadinath wrote: › Aum418 wrote: › I find it extremely silly to think that attainment alters any fundamental natural law
Ok Einstein thought it was 'Spooky' too... Your in good company!
Einstein commented on spiritual attainment and how it doesnt affect natural laws? Quote please!
Uh... what? This has nothign to do with attainment, and as far as I can tell, this observer effect is a law of nature (obviously, or else it wouldnt occur). Also, altering your perception of an object wont necessarily effect the object, its the mere act of observing that usually alters things - how you perceive doesnt matter, its simply the perceiving itself that does. Further, Heisenburgs laws relate to the uncertainty in measurement, not in observation.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 06:32 PM
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Ok this is interesting..
Master E was referring to action at a distance observed in photon polarization. I guess that's not a direct address to 'babes of the abyss' but I find the topic of Quantum Teleportation mildly relevant to my Magickal work. A stretch I know...
Also, not suprisingly, defining the 'role of the observer' has been increasingly problematic for the traditional scientific community. To me there seems to be a natural balance in the idea that if changes in the things I observe alter my perceptions can the reverse also be true.
There's a tremendous amount of trash on the internet about this subject and it's been difficult for me to sift out useful data. But it seems the observer, the instruments of observation and the perceptions of the observer are much more intimately related to the phenomena observed than suspected. |
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A universe that has improbably manifested me once will improbably manifest me again.
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 08:10 PM
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The effects I'm referring to (after-effects) tend to be real and external. For instance, a huge number of old personal acquaintances popping up in a single day after practice. So either effected by practice or a ridiculously strange coincidence. Which is possible of course.
Wiz - practices - Tzad shouts Zazen. I do energized meditation (kundalini/sex magick/tantra/whateveryoucallit). I've also done full visualization meditation. The techniques of attaining the knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel are presumably aimed toward this end as well, but that's not my path.
Yoga (raja yoga, not just hatha yoga) is also a path toward full realization, as is tibetan buddhism (the tantric buddhist tradition).
Kabbala is also aimed at this ultimately.
For a modern working of the path with all the world's traditions put together, look into Integral Yoga (i.e. Ken Wilbur) or Agama Yoga.
Christian mysticism (gnostic xtianity, rosicrucianism, etc...) also.
etc. etc.
Playing music on acid might also work, but I know of no traditions developed over time and proven to work by an extant lineage. You can start one perhaps.
Heck, for all I know the Scientologists have found a true path. They've certainly got _something_ going on there. |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 08:38 PM
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Quote: › Playing music on acid might also work, but I know of no traditions developed over time and proven to work by an extant lineage. You can start one perhaps.
"The Greeks say that there are three methods of discharging the Lyden Jar of Genius. These three methods they assign to three Gods.
These three Gods are Dionysus, Apollo, Aphrodite. In English: wine, woman
and song."
-Crowley: Energized Enthusiasm
Or in more modern terms, Sex, Drugs and Rock 'n Roll.
The general formula has been known for a long time, though I admit some of the tools are much stronger these days, and even stronger than in Crowley's days.
By the way, has anyone read Gary Lachman's "Turn Off Your Mind: The Mystic Sixties and the Dark Side of the Age of Aquarius"? It's quite interesting and has many Crowley references too. |
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Kalki93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2007 - 12:00 AM
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| I chant Hare Krsna and retain the Thelemic idealism as well, this works for me in attaining Samadhi. I've found it works the best. I've noticed how Thelema can be understood from many different angles. Will is our wills and the Will of God in relation one to another. We don't have to be too dogmatic to understand that , it gets boring that way anyway. Time and time again I find myself reading the Bible and getting frustrated because the time of the Antichrist has been going on ever since the Kaliyuga came about over 5000 years ago. I don't understand why most people do not understand this. |
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