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shangren |
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Post subject: Liber III vel Jugorum
 Posted: Nov 04, 2006 - 03:47 PM
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93,
So, I have a question about Liber Jugorum. I'm interested in the disciplines it recommends, but I'm skeptical about the actual technique. Namely, I've never been a big fan of cutting myself with a razor.
Regardie advises a similiar discipline in I think it's "The Middle Pillar," but there's a footnote by the editor indicating that he later recanted and recommended a less severe form of self-castigation. I'm stuck in China right now and have no access to my books. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with Liber Jugorum, or even better, can tell me of an alternate method, Regardie's or someone elses, that can be succesfully used to control thought, speech, and action.
Love=Law
- Shangren |
_________________
"The many adore you, but have you really any reason for pride when you are the type of person that the many understand?"
- Seneca
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papanick |
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Posted: Nov 04, 2006 - 04:29 PM
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The Middle Pillar exercise has nothing to do with cutting yourself or cultivating discipline, per se. It is an exercise to balance the psychic centers from Crown to feet/Malkuth, and to circulate the Light in the astral body. I'm sure Regardie did write on Jugorum, but not in reference to the Middle Pillar.
I picked up a copy of Regardie's The Art of True Healing at a used bookstore last week, in which the Middle Pillar exercise is prominently featured. It was in the "alternative medicine" section. I thought it was cool that he included the "Bornless One" invocation in the chapter on "Tuning Ourselves to the Infinite". I imagined a little ol' New Age grandma innocently reciting the Preliminary Invocation of the Goetia and being startled when her Holy Guardian Angel came to call!
nick |
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lashtal |
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Posted: Nov 04, 2006 - 04:37 PM
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Site Admin
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papanick wrote: › The Middle Pillar exercise has nothing to do with cutting yourself or cultivating discipline, per se.
Nick's right, of course.
However, the Liber Jugorum instructions relate to both discipline and punishment. You can (of course you can, why shouldn't you?) substitute your own technique. However, I speak from personal experience when mentioning that the exercise as described is effective - and it's effective very rapidly when one obeys the original instructions! |
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frater_cug |
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Posted: Nov 04, 2006 - 05:28 PM
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I believe shangren meant Regardie's book The Middle Pillar and not the actual exercise.
The most common alternate version is wearing a rubber band around your wrist and snaping it everything time you slip. |
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Frater C.U.G.
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kidneyhawk |
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Posted: Nov 04, 2006 - 06:50 PM
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Quote: ›
and it's effective very rapidly when one obeys the original instructions!
...unless you're Victor Neuburg!!!
Quote: ›
wearing a rubber band
I've done this...it's surefire way to either achieve the results, come out looking like Popeye or BOTH!
An interesting comment on this practice by Kenneth Grant:
"It is not a practice I would recommend because the long term result is not control of thought and speech but, rather, a lessening of spontaneity and a dread of making mistakes. In other words, a substantial guilt-complex is engendered. In any case, why do violence to the body when the fault lies with the mind?" (from Remembering Aleister Crowley).
93
Kyle |
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"Embrace Reality by Imagination." -Austin Osman Spare
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shangren |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2006 - 01:44 AM
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93,
I did mean the book and not the exercise, but it's my own fault for being too lazy to underline rather than quote the title.
I think Grant's assesment that Kent posted pretty much sums up my reservations. Perhaps Jugorum works well for certain people, but based on my own personal constitution, I think it could have unintended side-effects. I'm not generally a fan of quoting Freud, but I think his observation that when one avenue of the mind is blocked another one is opened applies here. I might cut myself everytime I say "I," but the next time I need to argue with a taxi driver over whether or not he's stiffed me on the fare I may find myself curiously timid. Frightened, as someone pointed out, of saying the wrong thing, or making a mistake.
I'll try the rubber band thing. Any more input is still appreciated.
Love=Law
- Shangren |
_________________
"The many adore you, but have you really any reason for pride when you are the type of person that the many understand?"
- Seneca
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KCh |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2006 - 05:31 AM
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"Fear is the forerunner of all failure."
The practice is for fear, moreso than anything else.
Oh, and also, here is a quote from Jugorum itself that is very telling regarding Grant's advice:
"1. Here are the practices. Each may last for a week or more."
The bold is mine.
Someone wasn't reading very attentively? |
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zardoz |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2006 - 08:53 AM
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| I used to bite my thumb in place of the razor. But a snapped rubber band (elastic) sounds more hygenic. I don't think it compromises future speech ( fear in arguments, etc.) if this exercise is done along with others from the Thelemic canon. |
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MichaelStaley |
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Posted: Nov 05, 2006 - 10:45 AM
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KCh wrote: › Oh, and also, here is a quote from Jugorum itself that is very telling regarding Grant's advice:
"1. Here are the practices. Each may last for a week or more."
The bold is mine.
Someone wasn't reading very attentively?
This is the quote from Remembering Aleister Crowley which a previous poster included, and which I assume occasioned your remarks:
Kenneth Grant wrote: › It is not a practice I would recommend because the long term result is not control of thought and speech but, rather, a lessening of spontaneity and a dread of making mistakes. In other words, a substantial guilt-complex is engendered. In any case, why do violence to the body when the fault lies with the mind?"
Since Grant here appears to be talking about the long-term results of this practice, rather than the duration of any single episode of practice, how does your remark bear on this?
 Might you be the person not reading attentively? (The bold is mine). |
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casey |
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Posted: Dec 18, 2006 - 03:33 PM
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| I have done Liber Jugorum a bunch of times every now and than. I've always used a rubber band and simply kept track of the number of times that I slipped. The way I approached it from my understanding of it, which could very well be wrong, was simply to make yourself aware of how much influence the ego has on your everyday life. I don't believe that the original intention was to destroy the ego, as that is a life long process that one simple exercise isn't going to accomplish in and of itself. I believe that this practice has helped me out a lot though. You can always say you know how much the ego has an affect on you, but until you try this and at the end of the day count up your score and see any where from 30 - 100+ marks, you probably really don't understand. |
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Asphyxiaphilia |
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Posted: Jan 14, 2007 - 08:08 AM
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I recently began practicing Crowley's Liber Jugorum, and I've found this thread enormously helpful (the rubber band method's been working out nicely for me, though I do worry it's not quite as effective). However, being in the beginning stages of my exploration of Crowley's work, I have a few questions/concerns:
- Can someone fill me in on the significance/symbolisim of The Unicorn, The Horse, and The Ox and their relation to speech, action, and thought? Crowley also connects these with each part of the Trinity (son with speech, father with action, and holy ghost with thought), which I can't quite get my head around.
- It seems as though one is meant to master speech, then action, then thought, in the sequence presented by Crowley; however, there's nothing saying that all three might not be attempted at once, a task I have recently undertaken. Is this unwise? I'm finding it to be a particularly enlightening (though rather painful) experience; however, being as early into it as I am (I plan on carrying on each step for no less than two weeks, more if I feel it's necessary) I worry about missing some key element of Crowley's teaching in my haste. I'm predicting some "do whatever works for you" responses, so to clear things up I'm more interested to find out if there is a concrete lesson that may be lost in not advancing through each step singularly.
- In section 0. of Liber Jugorum, before the tasks are presented, the symbols of The Rosy Cross, The Ankh, and The Cross Within The Circle are mentioned, and Glory is praised to "Him that hath given us" said symbols. I was wondering what their relationship to the rest of Liber Jugorum might be?
I figured if there was anywhere I could get answers to these kinds of questions, it would be around here  |
Last edited by Asphyxiaphilia on Jan 14, 2007 - 11:59 PM; edited 1 time in total
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Baccus93 |
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Posted: Jan 14, 2007 - 01:21 PM
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| I would recommend the exercise regardless of Grant. It does produce fear of failure etc.. at first! But though I did trouble over that, I found that went away. After the first exercise of Speech is successful, that fear will vanish. I recommend one stage at a time, not all three. The last time I practiced Jugorum I started with the preposition "and" and then moved to any use of "m" and then the pronoun "I". Tricky work! Then, later I moved to actions: avoid lifting the left hand (that was odd as I am ambidextrous and eat, drink, and smoke with either), avoid crossing legs. Then to thought I voided the thought of a certain female from the mind (which had interesting results because i ran into her on regular basis and 1) didn't always see she was present and 2) forgot her name when she did approach) and then finally i chose the personality of an Atheist and snapped whenever I perceived theistic thinking and acting. That was an odd twist i added. But it was interesting. |
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Asphyxiaphilia |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 14, 2007 - 09:21 PM
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Thanks for your thoughts, Baccus. In finding the mind to be a particularly uncontrolable beast (and my arm getting more and more worn/tender), I'm certianly reconsidering attempting all three at once and starting over with speech only; however, I'm gonna keep it up for a few more days then check up on my transgression journal, to see if I'm breaking any ground.
Anybody got any info regarding the symbolisim on which I was inquiring? |
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Language is a virus from outer space.
- William S. Burroughs
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Rikuth |
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Posted: Feb 20, 2007 - 01:20 PM
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unicorn = creative (phallic) --- speech = logos/word, also creative
Nothing jumping out for horse or ox currently nice question though, never really thought about it. |
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Aum418 |
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Posted: Mar 01, 2007 - 07:26 PM
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93,
On the Ox, Horse, and Unicorn:
Ox is related to Air (Aleph = Ox) and is attributed to this in 777.
Horse is attributed to Sagittarius in 777 (Fire)
Unicorn is attributed to Chesed (Jupiter, Water)
Perhaps these animals are simply related to Fire, Water, and Air.
In Liber III vel Jugorum:
*Unicorn = Water = Magician (Path of Beth) = Speech = "Righthand gateway to the Crown"
*Horse = Fire = Fool (Path of Aleph) = Action = "Lefthand gateway to the Crown"
*Ox = Air = High Priestess (Path of Gimel) = Thought = "Middle gateway to the Crown"
In this way, the Unicorn (water) and the Horse (fire) are balanced in the middle path of the Ox (air). The only "problem" is that the Ox is not attributed to the path of Aleph which is attributed to Air and therefore thought; the Ox is rather Air in the sense as the child of Fire (Horse) and Water (Unicorn) and the mediator between the two side-paths in the Middle path to the Crown.
I hope this helps clarify for some.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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Uni_Verse |
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Posted: Apr 22, 2007 - 11:51 PM
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A rubber band can be used rather effectively if it is tight and thick.
Pulling it as far back as you can without breaking it and then letting go caused a sharp bite of pain as well as a visible mark. |
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There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Dunkel |
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Posted: Apr 28, 2007 - 02:13 PM
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| You can also do not cut yourself withn a razor and find another way to "punish" yourself . |
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anpi |
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Posted: May 26, 2007 - 04:33 PM
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Aum418 wrote: ›
In Liber III vel Jugorum:
*Unicorn = Water = Magician (Path of Beth) = Speech = "Righthand gateway to the Crown"
*Horse = Fire = Fool (Path of Aleph) = Action = "Lefthand gateway to the Crown"
*Ox = Air = High Priestess (Path of Gimel) = Thought = "Middle gateway to the Crown"
I've been wondering why in Liber III Magician is met on the righthand gateway to the Crown and Fool is met on the letfhand gateway to the Crown, whereas in the Tree of Life Magician is on the right side and Fool on the left. If I map the Tree on my own body, is the White Pillar supposed to be on my right side? |
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Aum418 |
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Posted: May 26, 2007 - 06:02 PM
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anpi wrote: › Aum418 wrote: ›
In Liber III vel Jugorum:
*Unicorn = Water = Magician (Path of Beth) = Speech = "Righthand gateway to the Crown"
*Horse = Fire = Fool (Path of Aleph) = Action = "Lefthand gateway to the Crown"
*Ox = Air = High Priestess (Path of Gimel) = Thought = "Middle gateway to the Crown"
I've been wondering why in Liber III Magician is met on the righthand gateway to the Crown and Fool is met on the letfhand gateway to the Crown, whereas in the Tree of Life Magician is on the right side and Fool on the left. If I map the Tree on my own body, is the White Pillar supposed to be on my right side?
93,
If you 'backed into' the Tree of Life (which is the correct way to understand the 'microcosmic' Tree of Life), the Pillar of Severity (black) would be on your right and Pillar of Mercy (white) be on your left. In this case, when you become the Tree, the Magician IS on the right and the Fool is on the Left... just like the attributions above say.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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anpi |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 26, 2007 - 06:24 PM
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Aum418 wrote: ›
If you 'backed into' the Tree of Life (which is the correct way to understand the 'microcosmic' Tree of Life), the Pillar of Severity (black) would be on your right and Pillar of Mercy (white) be on your left. In this case, when you become the Tree, the Magician IS on the right and the Fool is on the Left... just like the attributions above say.
Thanks, this is what I've been wondering about, but I haven't found it explained in the books I've read through. IIRC, Israel Regardie's Golden Dawn book had a somewhat confusing description of this which said you should look at the Tree as if you looked yourself mirror, but if I did that, my actual right hand would lay on the white pillar.
Magician, Hod and speech on the right side of the body makes sense at least because the left side of the brain which controls the right side of the body also is more heavily involved in linguistic and logical thought than the right side of the brain which controls the left side of the body. |
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amadan-De |
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Posted: May 27, 2007 - 05:43 AM
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Quote: ›
Magician, Hod and speech on the right side of the body makes sense at least because the left side of the brain which controls the right side of the body also is more heavily involved in linguistic and logical thought than the right side of the brain which controls the left side of the body.
You have a severed corpus callosum??? Respect.
(Only kidding - as a close relative of one of the people who carried out the split-brain work with Sperry in Caltech I always get a bit twitchy when I read this sort of stuff, especially early in the morning... The situation is not so simple - though it does provide a useful symbolic model.) |
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Azidonis |
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Post subject: Liber III vel Jugorum
Posted: May 27, 2007 - 07:48 AM
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shangren wrote: › 93,
So, I have a question about Liber Jugorum. I'm interested in the disciplines it recommends, but I'm skeptical about the actual technique. Namely, I've never been a big fan of cutting myself with a razor.
Regardie advises a similiar discipline in I think it's "The Middle Pillar," but there's a footnote by the editor indicating that he later recanted and recommended a less severe form of self-castigation. I'm stuck in China right now and have no access to my books. I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with Liber Jugorum, or even better, can tell me of an alternate method, Regardie's or someone elses, that can be succesfully used to control thought, speech, and action.
Love=Law
- Shangren
93,
When I did Jurjorum back in 2000/2001 I just wore long sleave shirts/sweaters...
93 93/93,
Az |
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Aum418 |
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Posted: May 27, 2007 - 07:52 AM
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93,
I think it should be mentioned that the entire school of 'Behaviorism' in Psychology with people like Skinner (and negative reinforcement, etc) wasn't as nearly developed and explored as it is today. This negative reinforcement may easily work for some, but there are others ways of going about this. If you choose something to avoid - no matter what you do, if you avoid it, then the method is efficacious. Success is your proof. |
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.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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Azidonis |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 27, 2007 - 09:26 AM
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93,
Concerning the apparent feeling of "guilt", what nonsense!
The idea behind the practice is to create a mental "watcher" over ones thoughts, acts, and deeds, so that essentially you learn to realize what you are going to say, think, and do before you say, think, and do it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with making yourself "feel bad" or "guilty" about doing the said deed.
People make mistakes, and they get over it. If you say you aren't going to cross you legs and you do anyway then fine. Cut yourself and move on. Next time you go to cross your legs you think twice. Change the practice after a week or so, or when you go from a high average to a low one. (High for me was around 7 or 8, while low was between 0 and 2). Once you hit the lower numbers for a good week, then change.
The aim of the practice is not to create an aversion, it is to create the power of observation.
As always, good luck in the Great Work.
93 93/93,
Az |
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anpi |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 27, 2007 - 10:15 AM
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amadan-De wrote: › Quote: ›
Magician, Hod and speech on the right side of the body makes sense at least because the left side of the brain which controls the right side of the body also is more heavily involved in linguistic and logical thought than the right side of the brain which controls the left side of the body.
You have a severed corpus callosum??? Respect.
(Only kidding - as a close relative of one of the people who carried out the split-brain work with Sperry in Caltech I always get a bit twitchy when I read this sort of stuff, especially early in the morning... The situation is not so simple - though it does provide a useful symbolic model.)
I know the roles of the right and the left hemisphere are not as clear as they've often made to be, but I don't see how one can deduce from the split-brain studies that lateralization of the hemispheres does not occur. As far as I can see, cutting the corpus callosum shows that there *is* lateralization occurring and corpus callosum is used in relaying information from one hemisphere to another. In the case of vision, the right side of the visual field (not just right eye) is largely relayed to the left side of the visual cortex and vice versa .
Note that when looking at the world including ducks, ponds, trees, etc, we almost certainly do not directly perceive the actual world out there but what our brain presents to us. So, if we successfully visualize something in our visual space, perhaps we are somehow actually causing certain neurons in our brain to launch via some kind of an inner feedback mechanism instead of letting the input from retinas and other sensory receptors too directly influence what we see. If the right side of my visual field is largely processed by my left hemisphere, then I have some reasons to hypothesize that if I successfully visualize something on my right, I have somehow caused neural activity to occur in the left hemisphere, just like if I look straight ahead in space and raise my right hand holding a wand, more of the visual information of the wand is processed in the left hemisphere than in the right one. |
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anpi |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 27, 2007 - 11:33 AM
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Azidonis wrote: › The aim of the practice is not to create an aversion, it is to create the power of observation.
I agree. I've even practiced Liber III so that when I've made the mistake, I've just silently performed the punishment in my mind, at most doing a small gesture with my other hand, though this was after I had practiced it with a real razor. It's just not always very proper to cut yourself with a razor after you've accidentally said "and" to your foreman at work.
Liber III, like many other new activities, can seem limiting and dreary at first, but with experience it will became easier and more fluent. Wouldn't it be useful to have the control of Liber III over your thoughts and actions but without having to waste so much energy and resources over it? I'm not quite there yet.
Some years ago, when I was practicing Liber III for the first time, a girl I went to have food with asked me about the scratches on my wrist. "It looks like a cat has scratched against it with the claws." I wonder if she thought I was perhaps cutting myself for the pain's sake.  |
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amadan-De |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 27, 2007 - 11:42 AM
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[off topic - re above;
quite right anpi - I was really taking issue only with the word 'control' in the original bit quoted. The system seems to be designed to work with both hemispheres (and indeed the rest of the extended nervous system..) working together as a network, the fact that the (partial) severing of the corpus callosum demonstrates an apparent division of labour doesn't mean that that is how the system works when complete.. I believe there is a much less rigid view of 'which bit does what' these days (much more fluid and adaptable networks) but it is not really my field so I am probably slightly out of touch.
Sorry if this is a bit garbled but I am at 'work' (the sort I have to do for money as opposed to Love) so I keep getting interrupted.] |
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