| From the Galleries |
1703 pictures in 26 albums
Cefalu
General View
Last Updated Picture:
'Chinese Dragons' Automatic Drawing by Chris Anthony Wills
|
|
| Statistics |
Site visits since 30 September 2003:
21,464,916
Yesterday's visits:
30,853
Registrations:
Today: 1
Yesterday: 3
Overall: 5403
Newest Members:
|
|
| Review Submissions |
Attention authors, publishers and retailers! Are you trying to market a newly-released Thelemic product? This site is viewed daily up to 20,000 times by some of the most influential Thelemites. If you'd like to bring your product to their attention, contact us now to arrange for a review to be placed on lashtal.com.
|
|
| Random Quote |
|
As knowledge is the outcome of ignorance, so is also virtue the outcome of vice.
-- J F C Fuller: The Star In The West
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
ROTHGATE |
|
Post subject:
 Posted: Oct 12, 2007 - 02:22 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 11, 2004
Posts: 66
Location: CLEARWATER, FLORIDA.
Status: Offline
|
|
| I read it in the writings of my brother Spartacus, but yes use it as you will. |
_________________
(SCRIBE "AKAD") ROTHGATE 527 V.II.VII.
1193*
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
inc0 |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 17, 2008 - 08:43 PM
|
|
Joined: May 17, 2008
Posts: 1
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
|
|
Actually I regard Qlippoth (in contecst of personal advencement) as left-hand way to being god. Please look at this: http://www.gnosticteachings.org/images/ ... h/baal.gif . In my opinion we all start from Malkuth-the earth, whith is an ego as well. Inititations in right handed orders are based on sephiroth, and it leads to kether- Great White Light. Right handed orders are leading lower- into their ego- from Malkuth to Thaumiel. They are going to create sub-universe inside them and that will make them separate gods of their own world(kind of autism? ). Thaumiel is Kether of universe B, and that would bring conclusion that we actually live in multiversum that looks like chain of binded trees;)
Sorry for my poor english- I'm doing my best, but I have still much to learn.
inc0 |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
wolfangel |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 18, 2008 - 01:31 AM
|
|
Joined: Dec 06, 2004
Posts: 3
Location: uk
Status: Offline
|
|
An explanation of Dr. Simo Parpola observations on the relationship between the Assyrian tree and the jewish can be found here, there appears to be some criticism of his ideas even thou he is a well known Assyriologist. Having read it there do seem to be a few leaps but then this is not my field of study.
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/currentevent ... cture.html The Mesopotamian Soul of Western Culture Lecture By Dr. Simo Parpola
on November 1, 2000 at Harvard University. The original paper which i cannot get access to is on Jstor entitled - The Assyrian Tree of Life: Tracing the Origins of Jewish Monotheism and Greek Philosophy.
Obviously this has little to do with the qliphoth but it does shed some light on the initial posters question, i hope. Anybody whom could get a copy of the above Jstor article i would be very interested to read it. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
sethur666 |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 18, 2008 - 07:32 AM
|
|
Joined: Jun 25, 2007
Posts: 290
Status: Offline
|
|
93
Well, the usual confusion!
For a start, Daath is an old (pre-Zohar) term for Kether, Chokmah and Binah combined that was already in disuse by de Leon's time. When it was rediscovered in about the 16th century it was wrongly thought to be an eleventh sphere. Sorry guys, that's the way it is.
However, the abyss, as originally thought of when the 10 sephiroth was described as a river rather than a tree, is supposed to be full of energy pouring from Chokmah to Chesed and Binah to Geburah, so go there expecting a void and you'll likely find two columns of energy.
As for the Qlipoth being shells left over from creation, that depends whether you consider creation a one-off done deal or a constant process. Rabbis were often arguing this point. Qlippoth are seen either (by analogy) as sparks flying from the anvil of creation or as shells like egg-shells after birth has happened. Ordering them by whichever stage of the process they refer to makes sense, but doesn't create an equal and opposite tree, any more than you can make roast chicken from eggshells. Doesn't mean to say they are of no use, however.
As for Babylonian names appearing, heck, some of the Hebrew months are named after Babylonian gods. The Babylonian influence on Judaism (which arguably doesn't pre-date the Babylonian exile in any meaningful way) is far greater than often realised, there is nothing surprising about that, but it doesn't demonstrate a direct influence. Most of what we call Qabalah is no more than 800 years old - apart from Sefer Yetsirah, and that was originally just a list of the ten spheres, the 22 connections and astrological aspects were added later.
And those Orders proudly boasting they do things differently, good for you. But please don't mistake creativity for research, there's been enough of that in the last fifty years.
I recommend a thorough immersion in the works of Gershom Scholem,
93 93/93
Steve W |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 18, 2008 - 03:45 PM
|
|
Joined: Feb 23, 2008
Posts: 77
|
|
sethur666 wrote: › 93
Well, the usual confusion!
For a start, Daath is an old (pre-Zohar) term for Kether, Chokmah and Binah combined that was already in disuse by de Leon's time. When it was rediscovered in about the 16th century it was wrongly thought to be an eleventh sphere. Sorry guys, that's the way it is.
However, the abyss, as originally thought of when the 10 sephiroth was described as a river rather than a tree, is supposed to be full of energy pouring from Chokmah to Chesed and Binah to Geburah, so go there expecting a void and you'll likely find two columns of energy.
Steve - can you provide a source for your claims about Daath? I know serious Kabbalists look down on AC's Qabala and 777, but the above statements, if true, would cast doubt on AC's claims about The Dweller in the Abyss, Crossing the Abyss to the City of Pyramids, etc. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
wolfangel |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 18, 2008 - 07:48 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 06, 2004
Posts: 3
Location: uk
Status: Offline
|
|
I could speculate that there are at least three well established schools of Kabbalah - Jewish, Christian and Hermetic. Crowleys seems to fit quite snugly in the Hermetic camp, It also reflects the times he was living in (culturally) and the influences of other occultists upon him living or dead (as in there writings).
Much can be said the same about the traditional kabbalah as the poster above noted it changes due to the cultural influences that surround it, so for example the rediscovery of the merkabah literature in the medieval period effected kabbalah and its development to some degree, as did the travelling of the Jews into various parts of Europe and the cultures of the time. A person or people are not isolated from the cultural environment they are in.
The Hermetic Kabbalah seems to have a strong influence from Alchemy and the Grimoire traditions, this including the archaeology of the middle east/ Egypt seems to have also influenced Crowley quite strongly in his conceptions, as do his own personal experiences. In a similar way you can see the effects of popular culture on the ideas presented as identifiers for a modern audience to become accustomed to the ideas presented in kabbalah now. Folk Customs seem to play a large part in Kabbalistic theurgy. As they also do within the Grimoire traditions along with a mixture and confusion of many other influences. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
IIIAAAMMM |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: May 25, 2008 - 03:59 AM
|
|
Joined: Dec 05, 2007
Posts: 67
Status: Offline
|
|
I was once presented with the position that Malchuth was where Daath, now is. Malchuth descended into its current place, stepping down spiritual forces that would be superfluous to what a physical entity would need and in all possibility be destroyed by. This accounts for the presence of Yesod, Hod and Netzach, Tipharet, Geburrah and Chesed, Daath, Binah and Chokmah, with Keter the destination of all below, and the departure for all above.
I suspect Qliphoth are what we present in our physical form per each Qliphoth to its corresponding Sephiroth, to anyone looking at us. For example, the main attribute of the Sepheroth Netzach would be seen in a man by anyone looking, in the Qliphoth physical representative appearance corresponding to Netzach. But, I also think aliens in UFO's won't let us nuke each other to cinders. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
rzk |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 01:37 PM
|
|
Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 100
Status: Offline
|
|
IIIAAAMMM wrote:
"I suspect Qliphoth are what we present in our physical form per each Qliphoth to its corresponding Sephiroth"
Actually, this is one of the ways the qliphoth is interpreted. But to understand what that means, you have to understand what that part of the Qabalistic tradition means when they talk about the material. Lets remember that Qabalah is a long tradition where words and meaning are not static.
Also, as I just pointed out, this is only one of the ways the qliphoth is interpreted.
If you are seriously interested in qliphoth, I suggest you read Thomas Karlssons book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
magispiegel |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 05:07 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
Hi rzk,
Yes, now there is a man (Mr. Karlsson) who has put some work into creating a fantastic book on the Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetia.
Keep up the Great Work Dragon Rouge.
My very best wishes
Charles |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
gurugeorge |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 06:14 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
zagreus wrote: › I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.
I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).
Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?
Zagreus
I've seen scholarship that equates the Qliphoth with non-Jewish deities - basically all the deities of the tribes who lived in the same area as the Jews at a certain period. It's a way of the Jews thumbing their noses at all the other cults around them. So it's not as if they were used qua Qliphoth in those non-Jewish religions - they were their full-on, perfectly respectable deities.
But actually it may be a lot more intersting and complicated than even that. The idea we have of Judaism as a sort of monolithic, monotheistic religion is something that comes partly from the view of Judaism in the New Testament, but there are signs that this may be a rather skewed view of what it was actually like at the time (incidentally, this rather shows up the relative lateness and post-Diaspora nature of the NT). Scholarship by people like Margaret Barker (The Great Angel) and others is showing that Judaism may well have been looser and indeed more polytheistic roundabout 0CE and earlier.
This would point to the Qabalistic view of the Qliphoth being a late invention (medieval) that hearkens back to a presumed ideal Judaism vs. local polytheisms.
An interesting translation of Qliphoth that seems to make a lot of sense is that it means "bark" - bark/Tree. That would point to a more rounded, Thelemic way of looking at it I think, in which the Qliphoth aren't viewed with contempt as mere discarded husks, but rather understood as something that's a necessary part of life, a dead shell that encases the living Tree of Life and helps protect it. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Dogstar |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 11:04 PM
|
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
|
|
| Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture. |
_________________
Emmi gas vios kai ouranou asteroentos
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
gurugeorge |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 11:00 AM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
Dogstar wrote: › Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.
I think people should get the whole picture. I think a great way of easing people into the Tree of Life would be to point them to Alan Moore's amazing Promethea series of comics (now in graphic novel format). He goes through the whole shebang. It's slighly idiosyncratic but a good intro nevertheless for someone who's never encountered any of this stuff before. He sets the Qlipoth in the context of the whole picture. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
rzk |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 11:52 AM
|
|
Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 100
Status: Offline
|
|
gurugeorge:
Anyone could say “oh, but the qliphoth is just the material world/other nations/whatever”, and really push the reductionist button to the limit, but then anyone that knows anything about qabalah would realize what kind of arguments those are; true, but reductionist and in the sense of esoterism possibly missing the point.
The question of qliphoth needs to be adressed from many different perspectives, as an integral part of the non-static qabalistic system. We have to realize that the question of the look on the qliphoth, or evil will change depending on different theological choices of explanation, tradition, practical realities and things like this.
A crash course in this would be to take a look at Thomas Karlssons presentation of it, where the question of the qliphoth will get different (in a way) answers depending on the questions you ask and the answers you give:
What is the relation of qliphoth or “evil” to gods plan?
Positive evil
Negative evil
Necessary evil
Non necessary evil
Dualistic position to evil
Monistic position to evil
Evil as the material world
Personal evil
Unpersonal evil
Complementary evil
What is the root of evil?
Ain Sof
Binah
Geburah (Din)
Hod
Malkuth
How does evil act?
Separation
Intrusion
The Other
Multitude
If you would like to have the opinion “well, the qliphoth are just the other desert-peoples that were attacking the jewish people, what Thomas Karlsson talks about as “the evil and cursed nations: the amalekites who are called “the agressors”, the geburim who are called “the violent”, the raphaim who are called “the cowards”, the nephilim who are called “the lustful” and the anakim that are talked about as “the anarchists”.” .. well, then indeed you could and will find theological support for that, just as you would find support for ideas like “well, satan is just those arabs/the west/whatever”.
Understanding the qliphoth and it's relation to the rest of the rest of the qabalistic system is a great theoretical key that through practise will make the understanding of the sephirotic realms much deeper. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
Last edited by rzk on Aug 11, 2008 - 10:26 PM; edited 2 times in total
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
rzk |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 12:00 PM
|
|
Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 100
Status: Offline
|
|
Dogstar:
Well it depends which occult system you are working in. If you are an initiate of the (T)OTO for instance, you would go through several sephirotic spheres up to Daath before begin working the qliphoth (if you are not for some reason using the hidden and secret passageway to the qliphoth that Grant talks about in quite open words). If you are an initiate in the Dragon Rouge, where you begin working with the qliphothic spheres almost directly, it is a good idea to at least get some kind of theoretical information about it. The passageway that Grant talks about is taught in the very beginning of the initiation in the Dragon Rouge. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
rzk |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 12:13 PM
|
|
Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 100
Status: Offline
|
|
zagreus wrote:
Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?
Well, for starters the word Tiamat is etymologically connected to the hebrew word "Tehom" that in english is translated as "the deep" in Genesis 1:2:
"... and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Scholars have pointed at these and other early jewish mythological ideas as an indication of a more non-monotheistic past.
An intriguing thing about Genesis is also that nowhere it is stated that God created Tehom, something that might have influenced some qabalists who thought that the Qliphoth/The Sitra Ahra/The Dark Light existed even before JHVH. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
gurugeorge |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 02:44 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
rzk wrote: › gurugeorge:
Anyone could say “oh, but the qliphoth is just the material world/other nations/whatever”, and really push the reductionist button to the limit, but then anyone that knows anything about qabalah would realize what kind of arguments those are; true, but reductionist and in the sense of esoterism possibly missing the point. .
Well it wasn't me indulging in "nothing buttery" there, I was just reporting. I take the view that the Qabalah (in the sense of Zohar at least) is a late mediaeval thing, but I also take the view that it was designed by a profound mystic (or possibly a school of them), so of course it can have these profound kinds of resonances. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Dogstar |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 04:49 PM
|
|
Joined: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
|
|
rzk wrote: › Dogstar:
Well it depends which occult system you are working in. If you are an initiate of the (T)OTO for instance, you would go through several sephirotic spheres up to Daath before begin working the qliphoth (if you are not for some reason using the hidden and secret passageway to the qliphoth that Grant talks about in quite open words). If you are an initiate in the Dragon Rouge, where you begin working with the qliphothic spheres almost directly, it is a good idea to at least get some kind of theoretical information about it. The passageway that Grant talks about is taught in the very beginning of the initiation in the Dragon Rouge.
Well, Typhonian or Caliphate, there seem to be a lot of work being done with the Liber 231 at the moment. I just meant that for the uninitiated seeker there are so much more recorded experiences with the Tree of life for people to begin with. |
_________________
Emmi gas vios kai ouranou asteroentos
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Alex_Bennett |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2008 - 01:02 PM
|
|
Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 126
Location: England
Status: Offline
|
|
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Uni_Verse wrote: › A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...
You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated?
I think there are several very different ideas floating about on this one. The alternative Black Tree of Life is not the same thing as the Tree Of Knowledge of Good & Evil. This issue as far as I am concerned though is whether or not there is a legitimate Left Hand Path version of The Tree Of Life. If you follow KABBALAH DENUDATA then this was The Tree Of The Knowledge Of Good & Evil. A seven qlippoth (or spheres similar to sephiroth on the Tree Of Life) that counts down from right to left and has eight paths only two of which are above the abyss and with none but virtual joins to the 5 spheres below the abyss. It's other name is the formation of the soul, what is was called in Matthers translation anyway.
As fruit from the Tree of the Knowledge Good and Evil are the forbidden fruit (whilst the Tree Of Life's was fine), to study it even is to become a Black Brother of the Left Hand Path, why Crowley and co., side stepped it. This is the ultimate Left Hand Path tree at least in the Kabbalah of The Golden Dawn and Theosophists anyway. It even explains why the Great White Brotherhood think the Left Hand Path don't cross the abyss, a confusion between 7 grades and 10 (7 horns of the Red Dragon versus 10 of the Beast, aswell as the number of spheres and so on). It's all in the Bible of course too, in particular Genesis and Revelations.
The Tree Of Knowledge Of Good & Evil
1: The Absolute
2: Reason (left not right, of the top one)
3: Passion (level with 2 on right)
Abyss
4: Mikael [The Good Angel] (left again)
5: Samael [The Evil Angel] (level with 4 on right)
6: The Image
7: The Image of the Image (or is it the Object and will we ever know).
Paths exist from 1-2, 1-3, 4-5, 4-6, 4-7, 5-6, 5-7, 6-7.
Spheres 2 and 4 constitute the pillar of Good on the left and spheres 5 and 3 constitute the pillar of Evil. The middle pillar is then 1, 6 & 7.
If been studying the above for years and have more that I hope to include in a full right up some time. The whole thing can be summed up by the Ancient Egyptian symbol worn in later Egypt that has Set on the right and Horus on the Left both facing each other and supporting the eye of Horus (left again) and the eye of Ra before a small altar. This universal symbol is the understanding brought on by non-duality of very opposite natures in general. To face these things is to tempt madness and hence the Left Hand Path is the most dangerous path, why it was discouraged in all neophytes.
It is not the path of bigotry and moronic worshipers of destruction. No member of the Nazi party or similar idiots ever ascended to the real Black Lodge. True morality and taboos become irrelevant to the Black Brothers but amoral does not mean immoral. Satanism is more of a counter to Christianity than it ever was a Black Lodge version of it, protest theology doesn't count.
It is more the dangerous path of Alchemy rather than religious Theology (see Chymical Wedding of Christian Rosenkrutz) and for some people there is no alternative, except the madness that is coming for them or death. I would not advise the Left Hand Path (and I mean the true Black Brotherhood) to anyone who has an alternative, I just wasn’t given one.
Alex
Love is the law, love under will. |
_________________
Alex Bennett
Do what thou wilt!
http://www.dowhatthouwilt.com
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Walterfive |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2008 - 01:29 PM
|
|
Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 207
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
Status: Offline
|
|
gurugeorge wrote: › Dogstar wrote: › Is there really a point in starting to study the Qliphotic aspects before being accoustomed to the Tree of life in general? A lot of people, especially young ones, seems so more drawn to the dark stuff before they know the whole picture.
I think people should get the whole picture. I think a great way of easing people into the Tree of Life would be to point them to Alan Moore's amazing Promethea series of comics (now in graphic novel format). He goes through the whole shebang. It's slighly idiosyncratic but a good intro nevertheless for someone who's never encountered any of this stuff before. He sets the Qlipoth in the context of the whole picture.
Excellent reccomendation there Gurugeorge! I have the complete set in hardback and require all my pagan/non Ceremonial origined students to read it. It gives them some ground to stand on. Moore (he's been discussed here before I know) is *at least* an Adeptus Major or the equivalent, from what he reveals in Promethea. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
gurugeorge |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Jul 08, 2008 - 07:44 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
Walterfive wrote: › gurugeorge wrote: › Dogstar wrote: › | | | | |
|
in 0° 
: 
in 28° 
: Anno IVxvi 
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
