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zagreus |
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Post subject: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
 Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 02:16 PM
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I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.
I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).
Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?
Zagreus |
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hawthornrussell |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 02:59 PM
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Zagreus you seem to be putting the goetia in the same category has the Qlippoth. There hasnt been any work or study put into proving or correlating a relation between them. Although there is correlation between the goetia names and certain deitites that is a separate issue/system from the Qlippoth.
Have you come across any material that makes this claim? I would be interested to here more about it. |
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zagreus |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 03:13 PM
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Thank you for replying me, Russel.
Well, actually I didn't come across something that claims it. I mean, I put all toghether, trying to draw a conclusion.
I know Qlippoth and Goetia aren't systematically related. What I put in the same plane is that both of them came to us through the Hebrew sources, and what I tried to point is that maybe the two of them (the systems) were not created by the Hebrews, but adopted by them.
Also, the Qlippoth are characterized as being "imbalances" between the Sephiroth, thus "Demons".
Sorry if I don't make myself clear easily. English is not my mother language. |
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Aum418 |
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Post subject: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 04:33 PM
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zagreus wrote: › I've found sources (which the veracity I cannot assure 100%) alleging that the use of Qlippoth in magic (paganism) predates the known use of the Sephiroth. The same "sources" say Qlippoth's use was first registered in Babylon and that they have Sumerian origin. Also, each one of the ten Qlippoth would be represented by a Sumerian (or Babylonian) God.
I usually don't give credit to sources like this, without reliable beddings, but as I use to work with Goetia, I took the same reasoning above mentioned and aplied it to the work of MacGregor Mathers. If we use a skeptic/sociological method of analysis, we'll realize that the goetic Bael is related to the God Baal, Astaroth is plural for Astart (Goddess Ishtar, Astarte, Inanna), Adramelech is a sun god from Sepharvaim (Assyria), and thus follows... what makes the so called "Demons" to be actually Gods pertaining to pantheons of Hebrew's antagonistic civilizations (Babylonian, Assyrian, Egyptian, etc...).
Would anybody talk with me about these two "related" subjects, the Sumerian origins and the Hebrew adaptations?
Zagreus
Very interesting - is it possible that, instead of these Qliphoth actually being related to those more ancietn Gods and Goetia, that instead the Hebrew Rabbis named their 'shells' of evil after the different gods that were in competition with their system? Identifying foreign gods with your own evil is a common practice (at least in Xtianity).
The actal idea of the Qliphoth is much different from both the Goetia and the ancient gods (which would more likely be the Sephiroth). The Qliphoth implies something naturally without any coherency/balance - convoluted shells cast off in the production line. The gods have by definition a certain amount of 'unity' in that they are related to the Sephiroth. As for the Goetia, I believe demons and Qliphoth are two things - the Qliphoth are much more universal and macrocosmic in a lot of cases whereas demons are much more specific in function (it seems). Nothing definitive - I just wanted to make a few comments.
210 & 65,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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zagreus |
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Post subject: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 04:45 PM
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Thanks, Aum. I liked your explanation.
You mean, while Qlippoth are "Universal Devices", Demons are conscientious, half independent beings, right? I think I got it.
Zagreus |
Last edited by zagreus on Jun 20, 2007 - 04:59 PM; edited 2 times in total
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Aum418 |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 04:48 PM
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zagreus wrote: › Thanks, Aum. I liked your explanation.
You mean, while Qlippoth are "Universal Devices", Demons are conscientious, half independent beings, right?
Sort of I guess - Qlipphoth could easily be considered 'demons' in that htey are usually averse and not too happy to be met. Demons have a sort of autonomous and somewhat coherent existence that seems to be on a different level than the Qlipphoth, so yes, I think youve got it about right. Either way, I am making no final judgments - I think it is silly to do such especially about such nebulous idea/entities as these.
210 & 65,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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zagreus |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 04:58 PM
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However, it is usual to attribute a Demon ruler to a given qelippah, as Asmodeus, Astaroth, Baal or Belphegor, isn't it?
That was the association that made me to do the link between the systems, because most of these rulers have the same name of some goetics. What do you think about this association?
Zagreus |
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Aum418 |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 05:04 PM
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zagreus wrote: › However, it is usual to attribute a Demon ruler to a given qelippah, as Asmodeus, Astaroth, Baal or Belphegor, isn't it?
That was the association that made me to do the link between the systems, because most of these rulers have the same name of some goetics. What do you think about this association?
Zagreus
I think, like I said, that Qlipphoth could be considered 'demons' as well. Goetia are, perhaps, a specific set that were contacted by that person who wrote Legementon and such. I really do not know - just speculating, perhaps to give you some ideas.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
_________________
.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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zagreus |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jun 20, 2007 - 05:05 PM
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Joined: May 18, 2007
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Ok, Thank you again.
________________________________________
Anyone else can express anything about it? |
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Etu_Malku |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Qlippoth (or Qliphoth)
Posted: Jul 22, 2007 - 07:07 PM
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| I see the Qabalah as a system of explanations. Therefore, the belief systems that came before and after the conception of Qabalah are merely being illuminated upon by the study of Qabalah. Sumerian, Babylonian demons/gods and Goetic demonology are represented as Veils of Negativity and are one and the same. |
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Ati Me Pete Babka
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 23, 2007 - 12:59 AM
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Joined: Jan 02, 2006
Posts: 200
Location: New York
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
The Qlippoth are considered the obverse complement of the Sephiroth (negative/infernal emanations). They came about as each Sephira was created in its turn. The unequilibrated force that existed as one Sephira overflowed into another from the Divine Source created/enabled each of the Qlippoth.
Now that the Sephiroth are developed, the negative energies of the Qlippoth continue to multiply and are assumed to operate independent of the Divine Source. It is impossible to contact the Angelic force associated with a Sephira without contacting its corresponding Qlipottic 'demon'. One can only learn to work effectively in such an environment - not avoid it. Goetic invocations account for this environment.
John
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Azidonis |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 23, 2007 - 08:59 AM
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93,
I agree with Proteus' comments concerning the Qlippoth being related to the "Angelic" forces of the Sephiroth. I always had one thought of the main Qlippothic Entities being akin to the Archangels, while their servants more like the Angelic Choirs, etc. It can be broken down a few ways.
There are also the Elemental Kings, don't forget. In Traditional Hebrew there is Paralda, Nichsa, Djiin, and Ghob - for Air, Water, Fire, and Earth, respectively. Likewise, there are indeed demonic equivalents. It's been quite a while for me to remember these exactly, but I'm pretty sure Bael Asmodai, Beelzebub, and Belial fit into this category (Don't quote me, I am probably wrong, it's been years). At any rate, David Godwin has a nifty book entitled _Godwin's Cabalistic Encylopedia_ which is very helpful in this effort, and in relating the Demons to the Angels, mainly by Sign.
For a better instruction on the Qlippoth and more specifically "The Tunnels of Set", you can maybe get your hands on a copy of _The Shadow Tarot_ by Linda Falorio.
As for the Goetia... the Goetia itself is a collection of 72 Spirits which, traditionally, King Solomon placed into obedience and contained them within the Ark of the Covenant. This is very like the modern interpretation in which the Magickian, after Attaining the Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel, is to summon each of these Demons in turn, forcing them into obedience by the authority of his HGA, essentially "locking them" into his own "Ark". Another thing which comes to mind in dealing with these 72 spirits is the 72 fold name, or Shemhamephorash, the "Beard of God." For a more in-depth explanation of this, Mathers' _The Kabbalah Unveiled_ has been recently reprinted and is widely available.
Of course there is an even further consideration of one culture's gods being another culture's demons. As such, even something like the Necronomicon, with its Seven Gates, can be related to the lower seven Sephira which exist below the Abyss.
Happy hunting.
93 93/93,
Az |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 11, 2007 - 12:41 AM
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Thomas Karlsson, a prominent member of the Dragon Rouge (Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis) has written a wonderful book on the issue of Qliphoth and Goetia: "Qabala, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic." It was first released in swedish, then italian and german and now it seems The Ajna Offensive will be publishing it in the english version.
The book deals with the different classical qabalistic doctrines on the qliphoth, as for instance the qliphoth in relation to creation, the fall of Lucifer and Daäth, the problem of evil, Shekinah, Sophia and Lilith. One part of the book presents the way that the Dragon Rouge has worked with Goetia as a part of the Qliphotic intiation.
it also contains descriptions of the different qliphas, the qliphotic initiation, the sigils for the qliphas and artwork by members of the order and zeena schreck of the storm, some rituals for the lower qliphotic spheres and a pathworking for one of the qliphotic tunnels.
The tree of Knowledge (The Qliphoth)
Here is an outline of the Qliphotic Initiatory path:
1. Lilith 1.0°. The gate to the unknown.
———
2. Gamaliel 2.0°. The dark dreams. Astral magic. Witchcraft. The mysteries of the dark moon. The dark Goddess.
3. Samael 3.0°. The philosophy of the left hand path. The wisdom of insanity. Yezidi magic. The dark side of the Chakras.
4. A'arab Zaraq 4.0°. Luciferian magic. The dark side of Venus. Eroto-mysticism and the path of the warrior.
5. Thagirion. 5.0°. The illumination of the nightside. The black sun. The union of the god and the beast.
6. Golachab 6.0°. Ragnarök. The activation of Surt/Sorath. The magnetism of lust and suffering.
7. Gha'agsheblah 7.0°. The higher levels of eroto mysticism. Preparations for the abyss.
8. Satariel 8.0°. The opening of the eye os Lucifer/Shiva/Odin. The Drakon principle.
9. Ghagiel 9.0°. The lightening of the Luciferian star.
10. Thaumiel 10.0°. The accomplishment of the promise given by the serpent. Divinity.
———
11 Thaumiel 11.0°. The black hole. The step into the new creation. Universe B.
For more information on the Dragon Rouge:
http://www.dragonrouge.net |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 04:16 PM
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A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...
You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated? |
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You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 08:38 PM
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Uni_Verse wrote: › A question, as I have no experience with the Qlippoth...
You mention, Tree of Knowledge - Is that the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or something unrelated?
Qliphoth = The Shells of the Dead = Tree of Knowledge = Tree of Death = Tree of Evil = The Tree in the North = Sitra Ahra
In occult qabala also called things like "The Tunnels of Set".
So, yes. |
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it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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anpi |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 09:06 PM
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I don't know that much about Qliphothic tree, but Wiki says this much:
"In what may be the most widely-accepted teaching, they are the "[empty] husks" of "[holy] sparks" (nitzotzot) that were cast down after Adam and Eve defied God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden as told in the Book of Genesis."
I wonder how much modern magicians actually use the Qliphotic tree which seems like an an evil twin of Tree of Life. However, I don't really see it very applicable for me, because it seems that the Tree of Life can already contain the Qliphotic or evil ideas. Though I don't know, perhaps researching the Qliphotic tree would give some novel ideas.. |
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 12, 2007 - 09:24 PM
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anpi wrote: › I don't know that much about Qliphothic tree, but Wiki says this much:
"In what may be the most widely-accepted teaching, they are the "[empty] husks" of "[holy] sparks" (nitzotzot) that were cast down after Adam and Eve defied God's command not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden as told in the Book of Genesis."
I thought they were the 'left-overs' from creation, but I guess I might be wrong.
Quote: › I wonder how much modern magicians actually use the Qliphotic tree which seems like an an evil twin of Tree of Life. However, I don't really see it very applicable for me, because it seems that the Tree of Life can already contain the Qliphotic or evil ideas. Though I don't know, perhaps researching the Qliphotic tree would give some novel ideas..
Its not a separate tree. Its usually placed a mirror image of the tree under malkuth.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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Te23 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2007 - 01:27 AM
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Location: British Columbia Canada
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Aum418 wrote: ›
I thought they were the 'left-overs' from creation, but I guess I might be wrong.
Or maybe just asking the question that first interested magicians. What exactly are the Qlippoth?
93!
-Te23 |
_________________
"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the forester said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."
-From Beyond the Black River, by Robert E. Howard
Last edited by Te23 on Sep 13, 2007 - 04:10 PM; edited 1 time in total
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2007 - 02:39 AM
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Actually, classic qabalistic sources have different ideas on how the Qliphoth was created. Among the ideas are the following:
* The qliphoth is the result of either Geburah (Din) or Binah wreaking havoc (this is actually the usual idea).
The line of thought is as follows: Geburah (or sometimes Binah) which is the central sephirotic agent of division, the sword of God that separates. This is a highly destructive sefira that is balanced by the right side of the tree. Due to mankind eating of the fruits from the tree of Knowledge, the original world falls and thus the powers of Geburah becomes totally uncontrolled and highly destructive, Thomas Karlsson writes (please forget my own translation):
"When the original unity is broken, Geburah becomes an independent force that comes to dominate Malkuth and the world of men. The potentiall evil becomes actualised and becomes a radical evil power that inflicts pain... A part of God becomes an independent evil force due to the lack of obedience of man." Sa'el becomes -Samael- , the angel of Death.
* The qliphoth pre-dates creation, and sometimes actually is God in the most absolute way imaginable. Karlsson writes that just as "The kings of Edom pre-dates Israel and Kain is born before Abel, the darkness and Sitra Ahra (the other side) are seen in some interpretations as something original.", and quotes Rachel Elior: "The general origin of existences, then, was within darkness, in the Sitra Ahra, which ruled alone before the Creation.
Another version is how the dark light of Ain Sof known as the she-ein bo mahshavah (the light without thought)! Karlsson quotes Scholem: "What is called the power of evil, the kelippah, is the last resort rooted in the noncreative light in God himself... In fact, the thoughtless lights, too, build structures of their own - the demonic worlds of the kelippot whose sole intent is to destroy what the houghtful light has wrought. These forces are called the "serpents dwelling in the great abyss". The satanic power, called in the Zohar sitra ahra ("the other side"), are none other than the other side of Ein-Sof itself insofar as, by its very resistance, it became onvolved in the process of creation itself."
* The qliphoth pre-dates _this_ creation, and is dead parts of old creations that were left to wither as they did not please God. There are many different versions of this idea.
* In Lurias work the world God creates has a strange phenomenon; from the eyes of man there radiates a strange light that gives rise to "olam hanekudoth" (the world of punctual light) or "olam ha-tohu" (the world of confusion). Karlsson explains: "Different vessels are created to get this punctual light and give it's energy a form in the demarcated creation. The three vessels for the top sephirotic triad catches the light, but when the lights flows down to the six vessels below it happens too fast, so these vessels burst and falls together. The bottomn sefira is also damaged, but it is not destroyed. The shards falls down into the abyss and with them 288 sparks of divine light. The clean and holy is thereby blended with the unclean and unholy, which results in the rise of demonic antiworlds to the creation." This is viewed as both necessary in creation and a catastrophy.
Karlsson quotes Scholem: "As the seed must burst to grow and bear fruit, the first vessels must burst so that the divine light in them, the crop of the world, shall get to its mission.
* The qliphoth are middleworlds between man and God.
Talking on the issue if the Tree of Knowledge is a tree of its own might, it is probably pretty clear that this of course differs. It depends on what you mean with it and different ideas would have it different ways. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2007 - 03:38 AM
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I personally have always viewed the Qilpoth as the false tree of Da'ath
As it was the tree of "Good and Evil," dualities.
So it has a "false crown" as it sits below the first Sephira.
But as I said, I never worked with it. Have not even thought about it much either  |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 13, 2007 - 11:13 AM
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Uni_Verse wrote: › I personally have always viewed the Qilpoth as the false tree of Da'ath
That is of course also true. Many sources explains how Daath (Lucifer) falls as a result of either man eating the fruits from the tree of Death, or getting to KNOW the angels of Lucifer. This is actually seen as a part of the other explanations of qliphoth. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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