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noxlux |
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Post subject: NLP and magick
 Posted: Jun 23, 2007 - 10:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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Ok, so this is one of my favorite topics.
Why?
Because the fields overlap and strengthen each other.
First allow me to point out that when I refer to nlp I probably refer to just a subset of what is called nlp in the marketplace. There is a huge amount of sh*t out there sold as nlp. Containing everything from how to get laid by brainwashing girls to screwball theories about the human psyche.
So what I refer to when I talk about nlp is basically the stuff that Grinder and Bandler came up with after their modelling projects in the 1970-s.
So what is nlp then?
Well one way to think about it is that nlp is a set of tools for altering your consciousness. A set of tools for altering your state. A very efficient set of tools - and accessible. In fact I think the tools of nlp are more readily accessible to normal people than the tools from magick.
I think that given this way of considering nlp the overlap with magick should be glaringly obvious. For what is magick if not the ability to alter our state so that we may percieve and interact with stuff that is unreachable in a normal state of mind. (Normal for the normals)
I think this is also worth considering as the gateway to other realities. If someone does a selfhypnosis format once and actually experiences a new reality then it is fairly easy to leave the common one behind and go fot the new stuff again and again.
There is another area of overlap which is quite striking to me. In nlp one works a lot with the communication between the conscious and the unconscious. And views the conscious as a small part of the unconscious. When I have been working with the Daemon I have found the relationship to be exactly the same.
I will mention a third area as well - which is sort of a special technique for developing a number of so-called mystical states very rapidly. It is designed by Connirae Andreas and is called Core transformation. In it one just asks a couple of questions and starts reaching states like "oneness" "Contact with god" etc. The overlap of these states and states sought after through mystical disciplines is enormous.
And - I also have to mention one of the latest developments called
There are also a couple of simplistic nlp tudes that I sometimes find helpful while doing magick. Ferinstance I read a book about the subject some months back and all the while it kept stating that "this is a very difficult thing to achieve so you must really try this very hard ..." well, thinking that way certainly made it so! The tude I am after would probably have said something like "Just notice how this is happening" --- It won't kill all of the birds, but it is sure to hit some!
So - I would hope that someone else who has this overlapping experience of the two fields would care to respond.
Best regards
Noxlux |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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faustian |
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Post subject: RE: NLP and magick
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 03:07 AM
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Joined: May 16, 2007
Posts: 67
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| I was traveling to Lisieux France last year to visit the shrine of Saint Therese. Why is another story? On my way back from the train station I happened to stumble across a new age bookstore specializing in the occult and other related paraphernalia of the bizarre. This ‘librarie’, which smelled of a musk like incense, included the usual sordid nineteenth century and early twentieth century specialists of thaumaturgy including Stanislaus de Guetta, Eliphas Levi, Papus, H.P. Blavatsky, Aleister Crowley, Gurdjieff, and Ouspensky. But I was surprised to find a recent American addition – Anthony Robbins – magician ‘par excellence’ in the field of neuro-linguistic programming NLP. His grimoire - which comes in the form of 3 CDs - shows that with a few linguistic mind tricks, satanic incantations, and a willingness to give up one’s soul, infinite terrestrial power in the realms of business and love is easily within an individual’s reach. This assumes, of course, that the individual is willing to invest the paltry sum in the instruments needed for this enterprise, without haggling over their price. |
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noxlux |
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Post subject: RE: NLP and magick
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 03:36 AM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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While Anthony Robbins certainly is trained in and uses nlp it is a rare occurence that he teaches it - he is more of a motivational speaker salesman hybrid.
I like the scene in BtVS where Spike says to the hybrid demon-dead-body-parts-robot: "You're like Tony Robbins, if he was a big, scary Frankenstein-looking... You're exactly like Tony Robbins."
And yes, I will ramble on a bit more. RIchard Bandler started during the nineties or so to model schamans and regular occultists. (Yes, he knows how to summon goetic entities). And using the nlp modeling streamlined much of the traditionally esoteric practices, thus making them available to others.
I think the proper challenge would be: demonstrate something you can do with magick and I will replicate it with nlp. I am not going to make that challenge - but I think it is thoughtprovoking for people with experience in both disciplines. (as is in some cases the mirror of it).
Noxlux |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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Baxian |
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Post subject: Re: NLP and magick
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 06:06 AM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
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Hi Noxlux
noxlux wrote: › Ok, so this is one of my favorite topics.
Noxlux
Good to hear. Me to.
Some of the attitude's, as you point, are really valuable to Magic. I agree.
Often people I meet, into anything occult, have a lot of pre-suppositions about magic-What, how and why etc. And they don't realize it that much.
Since I learned NLP about 5 years ago or so. I have been using it to Spice up much of my approach to magic/Mysticism.
I have read Phil Farber talk a lot about the cross over's between Magic(Goetia, Thelema etc.) and NLP. And I think he's really doing great stuff in this area.
I feel that NLP/Magic seems, at least for me, to have become one of the greatest paradigm, (in the sense of pattern), for the revitalising of Magic.
Even more so than Choas Magic,(ok, there's alot of cross-over to be fair).
Because NLP is understood by so many, to be Therapy, bussiness, sports achievement related, and not Magic related, it's free from the boxing in that I notice in many magical groups.
It seems very free, even though so many people don't really get what NLP is about, at it's most basic sense, IMO.
Baxian. |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 07:38 AM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| If NLP is relevant to magickal practice can someone give an example of a NLP technique that improves magickal work? Nothing in this thread so far suggests anything that would be useful to magickal work. |
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KCh |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 08:40 AM
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Joined: Oct 08, 2003
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Location: Louisville, Ky
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Magick overlaps with everything that is possible to do, because every act is a magical act. It should be very important to define terms before bringing up a discussion like this haphazardly. What is it you actually mean by Magick? Since you used the archaic I'll assume you mean Magick according to Crowley's definition. In this sense the only similarity between NLP and Magick is derived from the fact that if every act is a magical one then the universe is magical itself, hence any idea contained within it is such.
Yet, my canon of truth is convenience, and it is simply not convenient in this sort of discussion to leave it at that. True Magick involves working with(or working towards being able to work with) entities/ideas/intelligence not based upon matter or known cerebral structures. This type of Magick is distinct from anything associated with mere hypnotic word-play by human brains and reason. |
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Theorte Ekstasis
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 08:54 AM
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| I will ask the question again. Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual? And how would NLP improve said magickal practice and ritual? No one has given an example of how a 20th century psychological gimmick could improve upon centuries worth of magickal practice. Any takers? |
Last edited by zain on Jun 24, 2007 - 10:58 AM; edited 1 time in total
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IA09 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 09:46 AM
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Location: Oshawa, Canada
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felis_silvestris |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 10:36 AM
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| Jan Fries, whose books, to me, do seem worth paying attention to, cites NLP as a technique worth integrating into magical practice. However, looking at some of the Bandler and Grinder texts afterwards, I didn't really see what they were specifically adding - it seemed more a case of restatement in other terms. |
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faustian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 11:46 AM
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Joined: May 16, 2007
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NLP is a form of Magick - at the crudest levels.
Its basis is language, or the manipulation thereof. Language controls thought, which controls action, which ultimately controls reality. NLP does however distort the world around oneself – usually to one’s detriment. The feedback loops create a perversion of language – not unlike what we witness in American culture today. The changes in reality are only temporary until equilibrium sets back in, usually with nefarious results.
George Bush and his entourage are great believers in the power of NLP. Had any of them actually studied Magick, they would realize the limitations of NLP. It is perhaps best illustrated by Ron Suskind’s quote from an unnamed aide to the President.
The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
Of course what these guys never realized was that as they were “creating” their own reality, an equally potent opposite reality was also being created – nothing more than the law of Balance in the universe. And this is taking place on many planes, well beyond the simple military conflict. |
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 01:16 PM
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Well put faustian! The same warnings apply to the use of NLP by the neophyte as apply to the use of magick.
Zain - your question is a good one, but I feel that no one will be able to satisfy it. I firmly understand how NLP is magick.... or rather how NLP is simply a modern discovery of the 'technology' that magick/gnositicism/kabbala/etc... have been trying to teach for milennia. BUT - it's a tough thing to illustrate in a forum post, due to the inner nature of these experiences. For me, magick is work on the self using the tools of language, thought control, self-mind-control, etc... to the goal of making the world around one more satisfactory to one's Will. Now back up and replace 'magick' in that sentence with 'NLP' and it should make perfect sense.
Of course, many here use a different working definition of magick, noteably here KCh above. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 02:39 PM
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I cant agree with the opinion that NLP is magick. Until someone can state that an aspect of NLP can improve upon centuries worth of magickal history and practice , NLP is merely another failed psychological gimmick that the gullible take refuge in.
The closest relation to NLP is actually George Orwells creation "Newspeak" from his novel 1984. This is where a word is corrupted or destroyed to the point where it means nothing. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is for you out there to decide. |
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 03:21 PM
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Location: Bay Area,USA
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| I know a lot of people invloved in NLP, I am in Northern California after all and it's powerful stuff. You can learn a lot from it that will certainly help with your Magickal focuses. I incorporate several as "words" and "focusing" are so fundamentally important in both disciplines. I know one of the very top Teachers / Lecturers / Writers in NLP (famous dude) whose wife is my Mom's best freind, very handy, and I will pose this question to him and see what his take is. I will post his reply. |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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Baxian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 04:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
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Hello Zain.
zain wrote: › Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual?
Yes I would love to.
Phil gives example's of banishing using some basic NLP methods.
Here is an article by Phil Farber, that may or may not convince you that NLP has something to offer to magical ritual.
http://www.hawkridgeproductions.com/med ... agick.html
As to if NLP can improve magickal practice and ritual?
My feeling is that magical training can always be improved upon and that some of the methods that developed from NLP, do, in my opinion revitalize much magical training from my experience.
Such as anchoring(learning to bring up experience's by using your physiology, as in gestures. And memory. Like in pavlovs experiments with those sometimes baffled, sometimes happy dogs).
Sure this method exist in usual magical training. I simple find NLP to be more explicit in this case.
Another example could be- Perceptual changes. Where you can increase or decrease an experience's impact.
I best not explain how it's done. As it would behoove a person to learn this face to face with a trained NLP person, so as to avoid wasting time by not doing quite right.
Phil Farber's good though, if you must learn it by reading 
Another example. If you want to feel less or no discomfit at a memory. Or more joy with remembered or created experience's.
Think for example of these methods positive effects upon such workings as assumption of god-forms or for banishment of difficult visionary experience's to mention a few things.
Now I'm not saying NLP "is" Magic, or "is" better than magical training.
NLP aint these things really.
First off, it's not about spirit work or cursing or egyptian god forms or blasting rods and magical power.
Though so much of what can be done with NLP could cover these more traditional models.
These methods are not even the "best" NLP methods for getting results. Just some example's.
NLP seems to me, about working out how you get results. What works for you. And to do what you want more effectively. And learning how other people get amazing results(Modeling, the foundation of NLP in my view).
Oddly, this could be said of Crowley's magic, or lots of other systems too.
When NLP's combined with current magical practice it can give some great rewards in my experience.
Hope this helps, and is what you were asking about.
Baxian. |
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Baxian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 04:24 PM
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Hi Faustian.
faustian wrote: › Its basis is language, or the manipulation thereof.
I have to disagree with you on this one.
The basis of NLP is Modeling from my understanding.
To be specific, it started with learning how three therapist achieved the amazing "magical" results they were getting.
After this, it was found that these therapist did indeed use Language(among a plethora of other skills) in a special way, that helped effect the positive healing's that these therapist were very much known for.
faustian wrote: › NLP does however distort the world around oneself – usually to one’s detriment. The feedback loops create a perversion of language – not unlike what we witness in American culture today. The changes in reality are only temporary until equilibrium sets back in, usually with nefarious results.
I can only presume you might be talking about the changes that can occur by the subtle use of language, from say, hypnotic languages patterns(from Ericksons work). Could you clarify this please?
I'm not sure what you mean by "feedback loops create a perversion of language".
This does not really seem to bring up anything I know from NLP.
Would you elaborate a little?
Cheer
Love, and do what thou wilt.
Baxian. |
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 05:16 PM
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Posts: 99
Location: Bay Area,USA
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| I basically see the principals used in Modelling in NLP as fundamentally the same as any used in any form of Ritual Practice. Your trying to achieve the same result...personal strength through personal understanding. |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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noxlux |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 08:36 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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What happened with this thread and topic? Here I posted an innocent set of observations ... or so I thought ...
@ Baxian
Regarding Phil Farber I am not to familiar with his work on the topic. I checked out some book he published at least ten years ago and didn't find it enticing.
Has he done more recent work? Anything in particular you would care to recommend?
@ Zain
Give me 5 minutes of your time!
Ok, since I do not know you I cannot guarantee that this experiment will prove useful in YOUR particular case, but if you care to perform it I think you will agree that it will be useful for many practicing occultists.
If you are interested, please follow these instructions:
Just for a moment pause and check out your state in the present point in time.
Now consider a magickal state - a state which you are in while performing magick - perhaps a rare and sought-after state of mind in whcih you were able to accomplish even more than in the usual magickal states of mind.
Preferably this should be a state which you, without using nlp, have to use some time and effort to reach - or even better a state which is normally outside your volunatary ability to reach.
Now please start to breathe in the same way as you did when you were last in´that state. Breathe as you did when you were the strongest into theat state. Breath as if you had already reached that state again. You will find it becomes easier and easier to find that kind of breathing as it moves you towards the state in question.
*5 min break for breathing execises*
Ok, assuming you did the above exercise - I hope it worked. It doesn't always - but the chances are pretty good. If you would care to report your results I would be pleased as a pie.
@Kch
I agree with both your definitions of magick. Everybody is a magickian (when I percieve the universe as one). And in the stricter sense magick is about interacting with occult intelligences. (I would perhaps like to widen the stricter definition to also include occult forces).
To me however the ability to shift my state of consciousness is instrumental and necessary to achieve this - hence the usefulness of "hypnosis".
I would like to add however that I can sometimes look at nlp from the magickal point of view and then it often strikes me as vulgar toying with brains from an unspoken assumption that the plane on which it operates is all there is.
The paradox of that viewpoint - for me - can however be that I have used nlp as a means to reach it.
@ Faustian
I am reallys surprised that the criminal you name is involved in nlp. Can you quote me a source?
However I think it is also of interest to point out that nlp of course is a technology without values. You can use it for the purposes you see fit. And you can use it in destructive ways (even if you imagine them to be constructive). It is just a set of techniques - not the way, the truth and the life!
jtm wrote: › or rather how NLP is simply a modern discovery of the 'technology' that magick/gnositicism/kabbala/etc... have been trying to teach for milennia. BUT - it's a tough thing to illustrate in a forum post, due to the inner nature of these experiences.
@jtm
I found that so well put I wanted to quote it.
A different map for the same territories.
A map which is more efficient to some extent - which is why nlp represents a shortcut in many instances.
A map which does not replace the old ones - if it did I wouldn't bother to read Kenneth Grant.
@Zain
I paraphrase: 'nlp=newsspeak'
the worst part of your statement is that I have met people who makes it very easy to understand why someone can come to such a conclusion.
However While nlp tends to accentuate the a-holeness of a-holes that does not mean the entire field is shit - in fact it contains fertile grounds as well. Hows that for a metafor gone bad?
But seriously: there is good stuff there as well.
Best regards
Noxlu |
_________________
Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 09:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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From the responses given in this thread, nothing has been said which suggests that NLP improves upon the centuries of work put into Magick and its practices. The only thng i seem to see here is a viral advertising campaign attempting to "sell" NLP. And i also stand by my opinion that NLP is merely Orwell's Newspeak under a different name to appeal to New Agers looking for a new fad to cling on to.
On a secondary note why and how does the practice of Magick /Thelema need to be improved upon? There is nothing wrong with the Thelemic or Hermetic system. I cant see how NLP can exceed what is already superior. |
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wolf354 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 24, 2007 - 10:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 17, 2006
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Greetings
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Ah! Now I know what is NLP after looking at some of my records (sort of...).
NLP is a technique to induce diferent brainwave patterns through sounds, from my little experience is very useful when applied to dream recall. It can expand to several areas like memory improvement, stop smoking or weight loss.
It may be useful to some practicioners and it doesn't have any ideological/religion/whatever ideas associated with it that I am aware of.
In my opinion are some Magickal techniques used in the past being updated into our technological "age".
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Love is the law, love under will.
Best regards |
_________________
Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.
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noxlux |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 02:06 AM
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zain wrote: › From the responses given in this thread, nothing has been said which suggests that NLP improves upon the centuries of work put into Magick and its practices. The only thng i seem to see here is a viral advertising campaign attempting to "sell" NLP. And i also stand by my opinion that NLP is merely Orwell's Newspeak under a different name to appeal to New Agers looking for a new fad to cling on to.
On a secondary note why and how does the practice of Magick /Thelema need to be improved upon? There is nothing wrong with the Thelemic or Hermetic system. I cant see how NLP can exceed what is already superior.
@zain
Before you wrote your reply, were you willing to invest 5 minutes into actually doing the empirical experiment I suggested or did you just reply based on your earlier preconceptions?
A "viral campaign to "sell" NLP" - what can I say? I have no need whatsoever for other people to think like I do*. I do think it is a very interesting intersection. If somone don't like it they don't have to.
"New Agers" - Now that - that is insulting!
As for suchandsuch being a superior system. Frankly I think that if that is the point of view someone comes from then they will be insulted by any suggestion to perform experiments.
But then again this may be because the depths to whcih I have explored the current are to shallow - this I do not know.
Noxulx
*I would expect people involved with the occult to not have to strong such a need for others to think like themselves genreally speaking 'xept if they are gurus of course |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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