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wolf354 |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jun 25, 2007 - 09:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 17, 2006
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Greetings
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Aum418 wrote: ›
...and all the occultists you've met aren't unbalanced/jumping into things? How many people try age old occult techniques and are jumping into completely foreign territory with no preparation.
And is that in context? is NLP giving a well defined and clear motive for you to expand yout Theta waves? is it enduring a practicioner to a fall back?
Aum418 wrote: ›
Teh only situation you are describing are people who happen to find Crowley's Liber E and do it before other work...
What other work? Liber Resh? The Greetings? or other sources?
Can't see how "dangerous" can be Physical Cairvoyance, Asana or Pranayama. Does it require any previous work?
Or are you sugesting that Liber Vel Jugorum or Liber O is more adequate for a beginner?
Just curious about your answer...
Love is the law, love under will.
Best regards |
_________________
Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.
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Baxian |
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Posted: Jun 26, 2007 - 05:57 AM
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Hi Wolf354
You say-
wolf354 wrote: ›
I have a strong feeling against NLP...
my feeling comes from the lack of preparation (mental, physical and more...) that a NLP practicioner takes before jumping into different states of mind.
If one's practicing Asana in the Dragon Posture the physical endurance and will strenght are aquired before you reach the desired state.
This is an interesting point you make.
In any good NLP trainings that I know about, not so much preperation, but rather, ecological attitude's, are kind of hardwired into the training. It serve a similar purpose as preparation IMO.
There is a lot of mind training. Like in the buddhist sense of "right think". -That is, thinking that focus's you on flexability, freedom and creative attitude's that can help you get some very good results.
Sure NLP is not idiot proof...completely.
There's some real idiot's out there using NLP. It can be kind of funny in a sad way.
From my experience, there is a lot of mental training that exist in the good NLP course's I know of.
wolf354 wrote: › With NLP you just have to listen to a record for a few hours and things will move very quickly leaving the practicioner most of the times not prepared to accept and enjoy the "achievement".
NLP is more than listening to CD's.
Yeah, cd's are are often not a great way to go, with regards to "NLP therepy" applications IMO.
I would not be keen to try the Goetia on CD either though! 
NLP can be very powerful. But good training often makes for good practitioner's.
Love, and do what thou wilt.
Baxian |
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noxlux |
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Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 10:04 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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@wolf
"brainwave patterns through sound" - while this may in some sense be correct; if I talk to you I probably induce new brainwave patterns I sort of have never understood that to be the essence of nlp.
My take on it is also that it may be used for whatever purposes, that it doesn't have an ideological basis.
I absolutely agree with you regarding the danger of using nlp to create a state one cannot handle - whether this be because one has not prepared oneself or because one disregards the warning signals given by ones body and unconsciousness.
I suppose quite a percentage of nlpers have once or twice done something utterly stupid like pumping up a state which was entirely inappropriate or something.
I also think that listening to a record is a way of doing nlp which is not so clever - a record pumping on with stateinductive words has not got the wisdom to stop, like a human has if he sees that the subject has a strong negative response to something.
Feedback and awareness is sort of essential in order to accomplish what onewants instead of its opposite.
Noxlux |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 10:39 PM
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 99
Location: Bay Area,USA
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| Fantastic stuff Kiyoharu. So far it looks like I am picking the very best disciplnes. |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 10:49 PM
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Joined: May 09, 2007
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| Looks like I'm picking wisely... brilliant articles Kiyoharu |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 10:51 PM
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Joined: May 09, 2007
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Location: Bay Area,USA
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| Operator error...repeated myself |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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wolf354 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 27, 2007 - 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 17, 2006
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Greetings
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
noxlux wrote: › @wolf
"brainwave patterns through sound" - while this may in some sense be correct; if I talk to you I probably induce new brainwave patterns I sort of have never understood that to be the essence of nlp.
My take on it is also that it may be used for whatever purposes, that it doesn't have an ideological basis.
I absolutely agree with you regarding the danger of using nlp to create a state one cannot handle - whether this be because one has not prepared oneself or because one disregards the warning signals given by ones body and unconsciousness.
I suppose quite a percentage of nlpers have once or twice done something utterly stupid like pumping up a state which was entirely inappropriate or something.
I also think that listening to a record is a way of doing nlp which is not so clever - a record pumping on with stateinductive words has not got the wisdom to stop, like a human has if he sees that the subject has a strong negative response to something.
Feedback and awareness is sort of essential in order to accomplish what onewants instead of its opposite.
Noxlux
When I write about brainwave patterns I am not referring to spoken words, I am talking about the new interesting techniques of using unbalanced rythms between your left and right ear that produce virtual images in your brain leading to some specific behaviours in the brain (like reminding dreams).
I have fun with some of Paul Scheele records (among others) but I don't really know if he is a NLP practicioner or not.
Your description of NLP reminds me of Reiki...
Love is the law, love under will
Best regards |
_________________
Be thou therefore prompt and active as the Sylphs, but avoid frivolity and caprice; be energetic and strong like the Salamanders, but avoid irritability and ferocity; be flexible and attentive to images like the Undines, but avoid idleness and changeability; be laborious and patient like the Gnomes, but avoid grossness and avarice.
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Uni_Verse |
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Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 01:29 AM
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Kiyoharu - the article you provided was interesting.
Though it still does not destory my idea that it is just a new way of packageing old ideas.
While going through the exercises in Initiation Into Hermetics by Franz Bardon, I developed a system of "linguistical programming" that is very similar to what NLP seems to emphasize. At this point, it does not add anything to my personal work, but it can be put to use.
If it pleases you, all my blessings |
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You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 03:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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I suddest you read "Tricks of the Mind" by Derren Brown. He has a lot to say about NLP and the new age in general.
Best Wishes Robert. |
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noxlux |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 08:33 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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wolf354 wrote: › Greetings
When I write about brainwave patterns I am not referring to spoken words, I am talking about the new interesting techniques of using unbalanced rythms between your left and right ear that produce virtual images in your brain leading to some specific behaviours in the brain (like reminding dreams).
I have fun with some of Paul Scheele records (among others) but I don't really know if he is a NLP practicioner or not.
Your description of NLP reminds me of Reiki...
Love is the law, love under will
Best regards
afaik binaural techniques have absolutely no basis in nlp.
also afaik Reiki hasn't either ... so my description must be misleading.
Noxlux
Hot tip: If you are into pathworking then you should check out zgjidhja which has resulted in spontaneous pathworkings and explorations of kabbalistic realities each of the couple of times I have experimented with it. Zgjidhja is not presented as nlp, but as far as I can discern that is what it is. It has it's roots in the so called 3D-mind technology which was basically NLP with another name for marketing purposes.
Unfortunately it can be tough finding info about it ... the homepage at http://www.zgjidhja.com/ reveals little to those not fluent in - I don't even know which language that is. |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 28, 2007 - 09:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2007
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
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I'll try to put it simply for Zain :
"How does NLP improve the practice of Ritual Magick"
NLP does what Magick does already, or is capable of being done with Magick. Thus, it doesn't improve it, it is simply another approach to the same thing, without the esoteric windowdressing/self-hypnosis.
If you're doing Magick successfully, you're already doing NLP. If you're doing NLP successfully, you don't need magick.
It's like asking 'how does an electric razor improve the performance of a Gilette disposable'. It doesn't. It replaces it. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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healthwatch |
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Post subject: NLP and Magick
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 03:13 PM
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Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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Google sends me information on N.L.P. and through this I have learned of this site.
The quality of the content is truly excellent, the statements made so sound in structure.
My work with NLP as a psychologist in London USA Spain Mexico and now Thailand. has been enormously successful in helping people to make required changes in their self-abuse habits. Their life problems.
In education NLP is in use by modern teachers in aiding students with the tough task of learning a 2nd. language. We feel in the NLP communities out side of the Fortune 500 companies that NLP is unknown.
The google snippits I get are 90% salespitches for training looking for biz-students
NLP is mainly in the hands of people who use it mainly for material gain. This to me is so sad because it is worthy of much more research.
It is very tough indeed to move minds within Health/Education away from procedure that are not as effective as cognitive psychology.
Methods that are magic are not acceptable. In Health it is too fast and consultants cannot earn sufficient.
In education executives are older teachers and 'know best' using tried and tested methods.
Big problem is the 'doff-cap' attitude towards doctor/ teacher by most.
Thus any route towards an awakening within the Health/Education 'establishment' would be welcome.
I felt that some of the comments here in this forum were not truly repreresentative of NLP thus damaging our attempts to gain some progress. Maybe this 'thinking community' could help us journey on Trevor CEO 'Healthwatch a UK reg. Natural health research charity |
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zain |
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Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 04:18 PM
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I have to disagree with you jtm. NLP is not Magick in any sense of the word. I repeatedly asked the question : How does NLP improve upon centuries of ritual magick practice? And the only responses i got were vague and unrelated to the thread. To me this thread is nothing more than viral marketing for NLP courses and books. A Thelemite has no need for NLP since they are already doing their will regrdless of environment.
Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.
I look forward to the "NLP guide to goetic conjuration"soon.......  |
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noxlux |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 05:23 PM
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zain wrote: › I repeatedly asked the question : How does NLP improve upon centuries of ritual magick practice? And the only responses i got were vague and unrelated to the thread.
*Cough* BS! *Cough* |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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jtm |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 06:22 PM
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Zain, I didn't say they were the same thing! Read my post again. They accomplish the same end, using much of the same 'science'. They are alternatives, not the same thing.
That being said, I think noxlux put it well. There's been some excellent insight in this thread. It seems you may have something against NLP, which is not surprising, given the sharlatans that practice it all over. However, understand that what is nowadays called 'NLP' is a new categorizatoin of techniques that have been known for centuries if not milennia.
Much like the bliss of tantric sex (my favorite topic) is now starting to be explained biologically and neurologically, enabling us to dispense with all the religious and cultural mumbo-jumbo around it; so is magick now being explained scientifically by things like NLP. Non-dual awareness (yoga) is now being explained in terms of quantum theory and the consciousness/energy connection. etc.. etc...
So right - if you've mastered magick, you'll have no need for 'plain old' NLP. If you've only mastered NLP, you're probably not as capable or actualized as a magus, becuase magick encompasses much more, not just seducing dimwitted nightclub girls or closing sales deals. Similarly, if you master tantric techniques, you can have great and satisfying sex, but you won't have the experiences that you would have if you followed the path of tantra yoga, which gives you much more in the way of the mind/energy/god continuum.
So you're right, NLP is not magick. And it's not necessarily a help to magickal practice, unless one's magickal practice is utterly devoid of the things that NLP teaches. If that's the case, then your magickal practice is probably a non-starter anyway. |
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Honi soit qui mal y pense.
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 10:49 PM
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zain wrote: › Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.
Zain, I do not understand your aggression towards NLP. No-one is saying that it is superior to Thelemic magick. No-one is saying that it is superior to what is imparted in Liber AL. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - in this thread have I seen anybody assert these things. Thus your argument is somewhat surreal.
Some people find NLP useful. Others don't. What's your beef, exactly? |
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"It's all in the egg".
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2007 - 11:31 PM
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Why does anyone even bother with zain? Forget about his lack of ability to read the many many posts that answered his questions many times over and continue with the thread.
To the actual NLP practitioner I give you a hearty welcome and 93! I would like to hear about some success (and perhaps failure) stories of NLP... also your work with yourself and NLP.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 12:58 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
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Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I’ve never heard of NLP till I read this thread. And I have read it thoroughly, and the links!
Many of the methods I myself have used for years, not in ritual work---but in what I will call my “reveries”--- comprises the use of intricate memory task----going back into incidents that happened in my childhood; which would eventually lead to the big S and D as described by the Hindu yoga treatises. Not only are these reveries a mental panorama of things that happened so long ago, but the actual conversations, sounds etc that accompanied such events. Example: If I wanted to remember something particular that happened to me at the age of six, I would focus on something I did remember, then add specific visuals—an apple, a tree, a rainy day etc,--until it would trigger another recollection of something that occurred,---anon, anon. If that is a form of NLP, then it is no thing really new. Perhaps it means someone has found a way to commercialize and “sell” some of the natural functions of the minds capability! I will admit, that the process I used, is an exceptional “conditioner” for the mind---no matter if it be called NLP or by another name. I do not see why one should have to pay money for courses though.
If I would employ such techniques during an actual ritual, it would totally distract me from what I was doing! For some it might work, but not for me. For me, it is certainly not necessitated.
This does not mean that it is useless for another—if that’s what works and actually helps—fine then.
You can offer me every CD and book written about NLP—and a free course to boot, --OR-- Magick in Theory and Practice, and you know what I am going to accept from you: though I have my copy already. I would accept even`The Grimoirium Verum” and make better use of it!
As a method to augment one’s training—quite possible. As a true and valid system of Magick as I recognize and have experienced it ---No! as far as I am concerned.
If though, someone receives the same results with it as the tried and true “old school methods” or better, then Yes! as far as they are concerned.
Would I say to anyone that it is a waste of time to look at it if they never heard of it, of course not! By all means, try it. No thing wrong with having a mind open to new or different things; or learning/and/or trying them.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Baxian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 03:27 AM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
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Hi Zain
"A Thelemite has no need for NLP since they are already doing their will regrdless of environment."
What do you mean? regardless of "environment".
A thelemite can do as he she please's. Chanting Hari krishna, putting precious stones on their Chakras,(and feeling the vibes lol), or goetic evocation, or...even NLP.
Your attitute seems curious for a thelemite.
zain wrote: › Is this thread saying that NLP is superior to the principles given in Liber AL? I think not.
Since you bring it up.
I shall introduce this idea, I think.
In many ways, I consider certain NLP principle to be superior to certain principle in Liber Al, as I understand them currently. Specifically, stuff on seemingly suggested ways to act.(some of the lest insteresting stuff in that most curious book for me).
Note the discussion, "master and Slave". And various "enlightened" principles there. "Strike hard and low and to hell with them..." Hmmmm, lol.
zain wrote: › I look forward to the "NLP guide to goetic conjuration"soon.......
Haha.
Funny you say that.
On that note, something similar, related and inspired(inpart) by Goetic evocation, may be coming out soon. With NLP being the foundation of the system, as far as I understaind it.
Baxian. |
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Baxian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 03:40 AM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
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Reading your post Michael...I had a good laugh.
MichaelStaley wrote: › No-one is saying that it is superior to what is imparted in Liber AL. Nowhere - absolutely nowhere - in this thread have I seen anybody assert these things. Thus your argument is somewhat surreal.
Good point.
Untill now...
...in some small way...
It's as if there has been a "glitch in the Matrix". lol
I seem to have ridden a wave of the surreal.
Baxian |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2007 - 06:22 AM
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