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Cefalu
thelema abbey in february 2004
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jul 02, 2007 - 11:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2006
Posts: 812
Status: Offline
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zain wrote: › This is the last time i 'll reply on this particular thread since it hasnt backed up its initial premise of "NLP and Magick".
jtm i have read over the material regarding NLP and to be honest i stand by my opinion that its just another pointless psychological fad for people who lack direction in life. At no time in this thread has anyone put over how NLP is relevant or beneficial to Magick , Thelema or Crowley. All we have had is defenders of the NLP saying how "nice" it is. Even if it is "nice", to me personally being a Thelemite i cant see how NLP would improve Thelemic practice. And i can say with confidence that the NLP advocates would not be able to do so either. I will say it again, when a Thelemite is doing their will, fads like NLP are pontless and irrelevant.
Maybe the Lashtal forums are not the best place for the "benefits" of NLP. To give the forum members some idea of what to expect from a NLP "seminar" i include a website address:
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php ... 8d46fed3d9
This will give you an idea of what NLP does to people.....
Page 20 of a Tony Robbins thread will give us an idea of what NLP does to people? NLP isnt for everyone just like 'Magick' or Thelema isnt for everyone. There has been plenty of evidence of how NLP can help your Magick, and no one claimed that a Thelemite doing their will would use it (perhaps at that point it would cease to become a 'tool' and simply be a part of that persons innate skills). Really, NLP is used under different names in certain occult techniques (I think it was Uni Verse who said a similar idea arose from studying Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics) and so I might agree that its teh old packaged in the new, but so what? Thelema is in many ways the old packaged in the new with some extra little bits thrown in. I find your myopia amusing that you cannot find any response worthy of your praise, even though many people have said many times over the benefits and given links explaining it. It seems you are reading these things with the idea that 'NLP is so lame and doesnt need to be used in Magick' already in your head so you cant seem to find anything to answer your question. The very fact that people are utilizing ideas and abilities under will to cause change in conformity with that Will tells me that it is a form of Magick, although perhaps 'repackaged' in non-occult terms. Obviously you see no need for this system but many others do see the need and obviously have experienced benefit from using this.
65 & 210,
111-418 |
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.: http://iao131.cjb.net :.
-~: The Journal of Thelemic Studies :~-
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oneiros |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 11:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 104
Status: Offline
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[quote="zain"]I will ask the question again. Can someone give me an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual?quote]
For you, Zain, in your practice I think NLP would be utterly useless, as you so rightly suspect. It's unlikely that you would be able to even find the basic books, and if you did you wouldn't want to invest the money in acquiring them. If you did get hold of some of the basic literature you wouldn't read it and, if you did, you probably would be unable to understand it. If you did read up and get a general feel of the field there would be no reason for you to start experimenting with the ideas, even just for amusement or out of sheer devilment. So there's no way you would ever get any useful results that you could then take and apply to your daily magickal work.
So, no, I can't give an example of NLP which is applicable and useful in the practice of magickal ritual - for you. My strong recommendation is that you stay well away from the whole thing. Hope that's helpful. |
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miles_vera |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2007 - 03:12 PM
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Joined: May 09, 2007
Posts: 99
Location: Bay Area,USA
Status: Offline
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| It would bge fair to say then like many other things out there, for some it can help and for others it can't. There are pearls of wisdom in many areas and AC for sure knew that being as he looked in so many places himself... |
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23. I am alone: there is no God where I am.
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Grab |
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Post subject: Re: NLP & Magick - Some Considerations from Practical Ex
Posted: Aug 26, 2007 - 11:38 PM
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Joined: Aug 26, 2007
Posts: 1
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Hi everyone, this is my first post on this forum! I found it today.
This thread is highly interesting to me as I have about 10 years of NLP experience including a Master Prac with Richard Bandler and some courses with John Grinder as well (the two founders of NLP), and about 5 years of magick experience including tarot and rune work, ceremonial magick a la GD (not much into Thelema so much yet, although some of AC's work is really good, and I'm owning and reading a few Kenneth Grant books which I really like)... and I have performed literally hundred of evocations etc.
I REALLY recommend everyone to try noxlux's little exercise. Come on, you have 5 mins don't you?
Templumkat gave a magnificent answer and so far no one has commented on it... why?
What I'd like to do is make a list of typical "parts" of NLP - techniques, concepts, etc. I'd also make a list of required skills/abilities and beliefs in Magick.
Then for each part on one list, I'd see how I could use some or all of the parts of other list to improve it.
Anyone game for that? I'm surely better suited for listing parts on the NLP list, I'm sure, but just for a sample, how about:
NLP stuff:
submodalities
belief
perceptual positions
Magick stuff:
astral sight
powerful invocation skill
strong will
Combining them up then...
Submods: Use them to describe the astral visions to aid in knowing that one actually sees something and what specifically one does see. Use them to amp up the kinestethic components of the invocations and any visual parts (like visualizing the god form etc). Not sure how to use submods to improve strength of will..
Beliefs: Change your beliefs to KNOW that you can see well astrally. KNOW that you can totally invoke that force. Will.. hmmm... I guess in some sense WILL actually is partly the ability to change one's beliefs... but not only that.
The other way, one could use one's improved astral sight to make better beliefs shifts using submodality stuff a la Bandler etc.
etc etc etc...
Just some examples.. I'd love if some experienced magicians could fill this list of more stuff which is NECESSARY and SUFFICIENT to be a reallllly good magician.
(Hey, I'm modeling, the core of NLP!)
Thank you for having me here.
Grab |
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
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Post subject: RE: Re: NLP & Magick - Some Considerations from Practica
Posted: Aug 27, 2007 - 03:39 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hello and welcome Grab!
Yours is the first post on this subject that gives practical applications of using NLP in conjunction with Magickal workings, and not just extolling the virtues of NLP!
Some qualities needed or useful for the practice of Magick:
Imagination
A sense of wonder
discipline
courage
some amount of intellectual capacity
sense of purpose
some amount of artistic and creative talent
a focused mind
confidence
Love is the law, love under will. |
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bethmattsix33 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 02:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 30, 2006
Posts: 11
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I would like to recommend a book - The New Hermetics, Jason Augustus Newcomb. Published by Weiser. Foreword by Lon Milo DuQuette.
"New Hermetics is a rich blend of timeless wisdom, fusing traditional teachings on alchemy, tarot, and Qabalah with the best of modern thought on neuro- linquistic programming and the work of C.G. Jung, Wilhelm Reich, and Timothy Leary. An excellent tool for the modern spiritual seeker, Newcomb's fresh approach to magick is both spiritually profound and eminently practical." Christopher Penczak
"By twining Leary, NLP, Jung, Reich, and a dash of Robert Anton Wilson with the symbols, rituals, and methods of magick, Jason Newcomb updates magick for todays mind and fulfills the promise of these modern insights by giving the practitioner the means to apply them." Sam Webster
I have not yet read this book but I did look at the pictures and it looks good. I have downloaded some really good Bandler stuff. I am really getting into hypnosis now. I also found an interesting site for hypno fetishists called Warpmymind and you can download free erotic trance files. Some pretty sick stuff. I like Richard Bandler he seems to be really cool. I want to try the instant handshake trance on someone. Go to sleep. He says the words -your unconscious- is a command to help go into trance. NLP is just like the latest hypnosis methods it uses words to invoke trance. And in trance you can program and reprogram your behavior according to your will or maybe someone elses  Richard Bandler says in his video that NLP is something he made up. It is my will to learn more on this subject hypnotism. |
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przm28 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 05:30 AM
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 25
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this thread reminded of few pdf's i bought when researching people that kG talks about in typhonian series. If into nlp, ect. you''ll find great information in these writings. Also Zivorad has a fiction book about aivaz quite delightful.
zivorad mihajlovic slavinski work....
http://www.spiritual-technology.com/eng ... ntents.php |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 01:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 207
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
Status: Offline
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I have a dear friend and fellow intrepid psychotropic explorer who is very deeply into the NLP.
I must say that I've observed his techniques in several aspects of NLP therapy, and what I saw appeared to involve hypnosis techniques in order to "get" people to where they could transcend their self-imposed modalities. (def. modalities: the qualification in a logical proposition that indicates that what is affirmed or denied is possible, impossible, necessary, contingent, etc.) Now I don't personally have an objection to hypnosis, it's useful in certain situations and therapies, but it's something that I think should be consentual, and I've seen people "tricked" (although they didn't have objection when it was pointed out to them after the fact), so I personally won't have anything to do with it.
Frankly, a lot of what I read in this thread reminds me of Scientology, not NLP... |
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Baxian |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 08:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 28, 2007
Posts: 67
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Hi
Walterfive wrote: › Now I don't personally have an objection to hypnosis, it's useful in certain situations and therapies, but it's something that I think should be consentual, and I've seen people "tricked" (although they didn't have objection when it was pointed out to them after the fact), so I personally won't have anything to do with it.
You wont have anything to do with hypnosis becasue some people use it to manipulate other people?
You dont practice magick then I hope... ; )
Many have said the hypnosis or more properly perhaps, trance is a naturally occuring experience(Erickson).
If someone knows how to manipulate others with it, as I have observed on one or two occations, I think its useful to know when someone is trying it on. Normally its quite easy to detect because of the watch on the chain. haha
Quote: › Frankly, a lot of what I read in this thread reminds me of Scientology, not NLP...
How so?
I have notice that within scientology, seem to be some basic gimmicks to manipulate(help?) its members, using language. (It would be a stretch to call it NLP, I think). Some form of hypnosis or careful use of language manipulation rather, would seem more correct. Like using pressupositions, and telling the person to answer the question in a very limited manner. |
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oneiros |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 11:43 AM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Posts: 104
Status: Offline
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Quote: › This is the last time i 'll reply on this particular thread since it hasnt backed up its initial premise of "NLP and Magick".
You have all my thanks. Promise?
Quote: › i have read over the material regarding NLP and to be honest i stand by my opinion that its just another pointless psychological fad for people who lack direction in life. At no time in this thread has anyone put over how NLP is relevant or beneficial to Magick , Thelema or Crowley. All we have had is defenders of the NLP saying how "nice" it is. Even if it is "nice", to me personally being a Thelemite i cant see how NLP would improve Thelemic practice. And i can say with confidence that the NLP advocates would not be able to do so either. I will say it again, when a Thelemite is doing their will, fads like NLP are pontless and irrelevant.
Maybe the Lashtal forums are not the best place for the "benefits" of NLP. To give the forum members some idea of what to expect from a NLP "seminar" i include a website address:
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php ... 8d46fed3d9
This will give you an idea of what NLP does to people.....
Or perhaps that should be "people do to themselves using NLP", because after all NLP doesn't jump up and bite anyone, does it? You can always walk away and ignore it.
Well Zain, I think I've suggested that you ignore NLP at least once before, but you insist on coming back with your typical argument, which boils down to saying "You either agree with me or you're against me" - and you've put forth this view about Andrew Chumbley and numerous other topics. Do you find that dualistic attitude useful? I'm not so sure I do - it could make a person look a little argumentative, if indeed not actually a committed troll.
If you're insisting that we all limit ourselves to taking a "for-or-against" view, then OK, I can do that.
Let's take as a for-instance Jan Fries; he's intelligent , witty, funny, insightful, a highly skilled magician, a great writer and a great artist as well as being a hardcore, card-carrying doer of his own Will. Having seen Fries do his stuff at a couple of magical events I can assert that he is also extremely fit, a top-grade martial artist and dancer, and a very good teacher to boot. Oh, I almost forgot to mention "great self-taught musician on a wide range of instruments". Now, according to his own account Fries has gained a very great deal from utilising techniques obtained from NLP, ergo we must accept that at least some of his abilities have been improved if not indeed evolved as a result of those methods. So, on one side, as an exemplar of the potential usefulness of some parts of NLP we have Jan Fries.
And on the other side we've got - er, you.
If you are asking me to make a choice, then I'm afraid it's not going to much of a competition.
So I may just do as Mr. Fries suggests and pinch out those bits that I can use; after all, I don't have to swallow the thing whole in order to make use of it, do I?
Do you?
o |
_________________
Q: And Thelemites?
A: And Thelemites.
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