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Camlion |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 06:45 PM
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asturel13 wrote: › Camlion wrote: › 93,
asturel13 wrote: › The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.
I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?
Good point, Crowley did tend to 'flirt' with the LHP, especially in his younger days it would seem, however he was not above attacking the LHP when it suited him, especially when he wanted to white-wash his own image for the sake of selling Thelema to his readers/potential initiates.
I see no reason to apologise to me for you being 'perplexed'.
Flirt? Many, many Thelemites regard Liber OZ as a very profound expression of key principles. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html "There is no god but man" is the very first line of that document, just below the primary quotations from Liber AL, which itself is certainly not known for its using 'whiter words.'
As the equilibration of apparent opposites is so central to Thelema, is it not possible that Thelema accomplishes this with the apparent 'RHP-LHP' polarity? If not, please elaborate on how if fails to do so?
You believe that Crowley's public image is a product of white-washing? It seems quite the opposite to me. Please elaborate. |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 07:43 PM
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| I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all. |
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asturel13 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 07:55 PM
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Camlion wrote: › asturel13 wrote: › Camlion wrote: › 93,
asturel13 wrote: › The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain.
I'm a bit perplexed, sorry. In light of "There is no god but man" from Crowley's Liber OZ, where does this place him within this 'RHP-LHP' construct?
Good point, Crowley did tend to 'flirt' with the LHP, especially in his younger days it would seem, however he was not above attacking the LHP when it suited him, especially when he wanted to white-wash his own image for the sake of selling Thelema to his readers/potential initiates.
I see no reason to apologise to me for you being 'perplexed'.
Flirt? Many, many Thelemites regard Liber OZ as a very profound expression of key principles. http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib77.html "There is no god but man" is the very first line of that document, just below the primary quotations from Liber AL, which itself is certainly not known for its using 'whiter words.'
....You believe that Crowley's public image is a product of white-washing? It seems quite the opposite to me. Please elaborate.
Erm, no I never once said that Crowley's public image was the product of 'white-washing' I would urge you to read the post more carefully. I stated that Crowley would often attack the LHP and its initiates with a view to putting up a divide between himself and the (so-called) Black Brothers, a term which is entirely of Crowley's own invention. 'Magick in theory and practice' and 'Magick without tears' both show Crowley's attitude in this matter quite clearly. Crowley seems to me rather concerned with avoiding the 'black magician' role when it came to his his public image.
"As the equilibration of apparent opposites is so central to Thelema, is it not possible that Thelema accomplishes this with the apparent 'RHP-LHP' polarity? If not, please elaborate on how if fails to do so?"
Once again, nowhere in my posts do I assert that Thelema Does not equilibriate the seemingly apparent polarity of the both the LHP and the RHP. And yes, I am very familiar with Liber Oz, thankyou. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 07:56 PM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.
I totally agree with this. Consider for example Crowley's high esteem of Indian Tantra - in "Magick Without Tears" he calls it the most advanced form of Hinduism and relates it to the White School of Magick - which would be 'the Left Hand Path' by both self-identification and as perceived by others (this statement could be qualified but in general that's the gist). My perception and understanding was that Crowley was using the term in a way that it relates the Left Hand with the Black Brothers and their inability to discard ego-perspective and clinging. Semantic confusion has generated a great deal of misunderstandings, one of the reasons Crowley suggested kabbalah and numerology as models of 'universal grammar' among magicians. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 08:03 PM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.
[Bold italics mine.]
That was my next point, if further labor was required. 
In the light of Thelema, this seems a total non-issue to me. |
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Post subject: Re: lhp
Posted: Aug 13, 2008 - 08:22 PM
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Joined: Aug 11, 2007
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Location: Leeds
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Isn't that Gary Glitter's new site?
As for Dragon Rouge, I read the work of one of their Polish members... quite amusing to see a reference to something I wrote as a 16 year old schoolboy joke in there - rather sums it all up, doesn't it? |
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asturel13 |
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Post subject: Re: lhp
Posted: Aug 13, 2008 - 10:13 PM
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[/quote]
As for Dragon Rouge, I read the work of one of their Polish members... quite amusing to see a reference to something I wrote as a 16 year old schoolboy joke in there - rather sums it all up, doesn't it?[/quote]
Im not sure personally, I have not seen the work in question, perhaps you could elaborate further? |
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rzk |
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Post subject: RE: Re: lhp
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 12:46 AM
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| It would seem he could not.. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 03:14 PM
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nashimiron:
It sounds a bit to me like the LHP is simply a title for the esoteric tradition. When a person has realised that the exoteric tradition is only part of the story, he goes in search of the esoteric.
Well you could be in an esoteric tradition without thoroughly working with the darker aspects, as the qliphoth for instance.
The DR often talks about 3 different spiritual modes:
The Exoterical Religious. Right Hand Path.
The "Light" Esoterical (where the dark side is not worked with). Right Hand Path.
The "Dark" Esoterical (where one is ALSO working with the dark side). Left Hand Path.
Patriarch156
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.
Actually, this is one of the basic points in the discussion of Thelema, Crowley and the Left Hand Path, and has already been pointed out in the discussion. What Crowley calls the Left Hand Path simply has very little to do with the Left Hand Path. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 04:31 PM
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rzk wrote: › nashimiron:
It sounds a bit to me like the LHP is simply a title for the esoteric tradition. When a person has realised that the exoteric tradition is only part of the story, he goes in search of the esoteric.
Well you could be in an esoteric tradition without thoroughly working with the darker aspects, as the qliphoth for instance.
The DR often talks about 3 different spiritual modes:
The Exoterical Religious. Right Hand Path.
The "Light" Esoterical (where the dark side is not worked with). Right Hand Path.
The "Dark" Esoterical (where one is ALSO working with the dark side). Left Hand Path.
Patriarch156
I think rather than viewing Crowley's disparagement of the left hand path as an attempt at whitewashing Thelema, it would be more fruitful to viewing upon how the term itself was used by the Theosophical Society and consequently elaborated in Crowley's own visionary exploits such as the Vision and the Voice. I.e. it might be that he isn't talking about your left hand path at all.
Actually, this is one of the basic points in the discussion of Thelema, Crowley and the Left Hand Path, and has already been pointed out in the discussion. What Crowley calls the Left Hand Path simply has very little to do with the Left Hand Path.
A question occurs to me concerning this. Is there not one path appropriate to each of us, commonly known as the way of the Will among many of us? What has all this 'dark and light,' 'left and right' crap have to do with Crowley or Thelema? |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 04:53 PM
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Don't forget that it was Crowley who began talking about the Left and Right Hand Path within a thelemic context.
The Left Hand Path is a Meta-tradition and finding the true will can indeed be said to be a central aspect to the tradition. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 05:37 PM
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rzk wrote: › Don't forget that it was Crowley who began talking about the Left and Right Hand Path within a thelemic context.
The Left Hand Path is a Meta-tradition and finding the true will can indeed be said to be a central aspect to the tradition.
A "meta-tradition" would imply the addition to or completion of an existing tradition somehow lacking in the first place. I don't see this as applicable to Thelema.
By my reading, Crowley was all about relative balance between the individual and universe. The course of each is self-correcting by direct reference to Will.
There is no need to categorize the universe by reference to its apparent extremities, other than the pretense of being cool, dark and twisty.  |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 06:10 PM
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No, it implies that for instance two traditions share the same esoteric background. The Left Hand Path can be used as a word to point at many different esoteric traditions that can be said to belong to the same fold.
"By my reading, Crowley was all about relative balance between the individual and universe. "
.. How is this relevant to the discussion?
The idea of talking about the darker aspects of esoterism is could be rhetorically important (and this is important!) when one explaining a tradition that also incorporates aspects that mainstream spirituality simply is lacking.
There is not much "cool" about the darkness within the Left Hand Path, it is extremely demanding.This is not a tradition that can be approached as an identity-thing. If one wants occultism where one can boost the ego and seem cool, well then the Left Hand Path is not what you are searching for. Of course though, we find people like this that styles themselves LHP-adepts, such as Michael Ford and the like, that cannot even be seen to be on the fringe of the Left Hand Path movement. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 06:25 PM
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rzk wrote: › The idea of talking about the darker aspects of esoterism is could be rhetorically important (and this is important!) when one explaining a tradition that also incorporates aspects that mainstream spirituality simply is lacking.
How is this helpful? Who is being addressed in such a discussion? |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Nov 18, 2008 - 06:38 PM
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If a group were the only group working with sex-magic and they had no problems with saying this in open, and if this aspect of their system was essential to the understanding of the practice of that group, I would say that it could be good to have that kind of information given.
This is the same thing. It adresses anyone interested in understanding what the tradition is all about. |
_________________
it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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