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Noxifer616 |
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Post subject: Dragon Rouge
 Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 03:14 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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I'm not 100% certain if you could consider them Typhonian, but the Dragon Rouge (Ordo Draconis et Atri Adamantis) certainly fascinates me. Their magick system revolves around the principle underlined in the formula called G.O.T.A.
G= Goetic Kabbalah; the qliphothic spheres used as a path to apotheosis. This process is viewed as the symbolical crossing of the Abyss, called the tree of Daat (knowledge of good and evil). That tree as told by Kenneth Grant, is not a different tree from the Tree of Life, but the same tree at night.
Only initiaites of the Outer Branch begin to work with such powers.
O= Odinic Runology; representive of Odin's journey through the underworld. The principles of which can be found in Uthark - Nightside of The Runes.
T= Tantra; the Draconic tantra used within the order seems to go beyond the basic right-hand form. The tantra as used by the Order in their words "We are using a rare and dark system in which the kundalini reaches beyond Sahasrara. This does not lead to Samadhi but to Kaivalya where the adept becomes like a god"
A= Alchemy; i know very little of the Typhonian Alchemy practiced by the Dragon Rouge, except that the goal is to obtain an "elixer of eternal life" known as the Black Diamond.
The reason i posted was out of curiosity. What do other Thelemites view of the Order (though their teachings, imo, do not contradict mainstream Thelema's, as well as the strong Typhonian Thelemite presence with the order) Well, i appreciate any other comments, thoughts, or information on this group, whom i show utmost respect for.
93
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kuniggety |
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Post subject: RE: Dragon Rouge
Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 05:10 AM
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Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Okinawa, JPN
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| I've looked at one of their books before and the "spells" were moreof what you'd find in some teenage witch's spellbook rather than a guide to transcendal magick. Not my cup of tea. |
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algoul |
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Post subject: RE: Dragon Rouge
Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 09:35 AM
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Joined: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 59
Location: Italy
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I'm sorry to displease you but I do not think that they are typhonian and thelemite at all
but this is you know my point of view, based in experiences, if you want to search out do by yourself
regards |
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noxlux |
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Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 03:52 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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| What is it that made them not/typhonian in ur opinion? What distinguishes their practices from typhonian practices? |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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Aum418 |
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Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 06:09 PM
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noxlux |
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Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 09:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
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No this is a magick society based mainly in sweden but with offshots in germany, italy and poland amongst other nations.
They are quite nice and quite disciplined people working very seriously.
I have worked slightly with them, and while their work has a different flavor than that of Grant (whom I prefer) I fail to find anything making them non-typhonian - but then again taxonomy has never been my forte.
Best regards
Noxlux |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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Noxifer616 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 25, 2007 - 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2007
Posts: 26
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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noxlux wrote: › No this is a magick society based mainly in sweden but with offshots in germany, italy and poland amongst other nations.
They are quite nice and quite disciplined people working very seriously.
I have worked slightly with them, and while their work has a different flavor than that of Grant (whom I prefer) I fail to find anything making them non-typhonian - but then again taxonomy has never been my forte.
Best regards
Noxlux
93
Thank you
You are by far the first person other than myself to give a positive reference to the Dragon Rouge. Their magickal system and use of the Qliphoth is NOT at all evil, but rather a beautiful and illuminating system. Although, i dont see their system as necessarily being different than that of Grant's, just a bit more detailed. |
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Om Avete Luciferi. As above, so below.
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2007 - 07:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 28, 2006
Posts: 168
Location: San Francisco
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| As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!). |
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Noxifer616 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 26, 2007 - 04:52 PM
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Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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runelogix wrote: › As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!).
93
Kemetic... as in their work with Khepri-Ra, the god of the dying moon? So you are affiliated with them, or know someone who is? I appreciate runulgy and sorcery alike, (neither of which i feel contradicts the Law of Thelema) and it seems that both hold a heavy current in DR. |
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Om Avete Luciferi. As above, so below.
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 03:37 AM
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Location: San Francisco
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Noxifer616 wrote: › runelogix wrote: › As a non Thelemite i can't tell you a Thelemite perspective. But as a rune magician and sorcerer I have read Uthark and a couple of their magazines and I like everything they do, a lot. Some of the Kemetic stuff is cheesy but all Kemetic work is a bit kooky IMO (like me!).
93
Kemetic... as in their work with Khepri-Ra, the god of the dying moon?
Kemetic as in http://www.ecauldron.com/reconegyptfaq.php
Quote: › So you are affiliated with them, or know someone who is? I appreciate runulgy and sorcery alike, (neither of which i feel contradicts the Law of Thelema)
Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"
Quote: ›
and it seems that both hold a heavy current in DR.
I'm not a member, I don't know anyone that is (I've never been to the countries that they operate out of). They have a website, if you want to "join" the DR I'm sure you could send someone an email on their website. |
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Noxifer616 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 29, 2007 - 04:35 AM
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Joined: Jul 15, 2007
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Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
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That's not what i meant. They seem to ultr-emphasize the god Khepri.
Quote: › Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"
"Do what thou wilt..."
Quote: › I'm not a member, I don't know anyone that is (I've never been to the countries that they operate out of). They have a website, if you want to "join" the DR I'm sure you could send someone an email on their website.
I've been on their sitte. It's very well made and informative. As far as joining goes, ithey dont mentio the age restriction thus i assume it's 18. |
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Om Avete Luciferi. As above, so below.
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2007 - 12:08 AM
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Location: San Francisco
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[quote="Noxifer616"]
That's not what i meant. They seem to ultr-emphasize the god Khepri.
Quote: › Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"
Quote: › "Do what thou wilt..."
Thats not what I asked, I hate responses like that. |
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runelogix |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 31, 2007 - 12:10 AM
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[quote="Noxifer616"]
Quote: › Whoa there, hold on for a minute, whats this Law of Thelema that "can't be contradicted?"
Quote: › "Do what thou wilt..."
Thats not what I asked, I hate responses like that. |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 03:36 PM
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Joined: Sep 10, 2007
Posts: 100
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Noxifer616:
"The reason i posted was out of curiosity. What do other Thelemites view of the Order (though their teachings, imo, do not contradict mainstream Thelema's, as well as the strong Typhonian Thelemite presence with the order) Well, i appreciate any other comments, thoughts, or information on this group, whom i show utmost respect for."
Well, there are some thelemites that are members of Dragon Rouge, and I have not found any problems with combining thelema and the qliphothic initiation.
kuniggety wrote:
"I've looked at one of their books before and the "spells" were moreof what you'd find in some teenage witch's spellbook rather than a guide to transcendal magick. Not my cup of tea."
Which book was that? Does not sound like a book from DR. |
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it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 08, 2008 - 05:07 PM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2005
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| There is a book about Dragon Rouge by Kennet Granholm, called Embracing the Dark: The Magic Order of Dragon Rouge - Its Practice in Dark Magic and Meaning Making published by Abo Akademi Press. |
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LittleAlickGrewUp |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 09, 2008 - 01:40 AM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 29
Location: England.
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| They seem interesting, but their website puts me off by going on about how dark they are... |
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daimonos |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 09, 2008 - 04:34 PM
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Joined: May 24, 2008
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Location: U.K.
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From their web site:
The philosophy of the dark side is represented by the left hand path and its ideology. The left hand path is founded around a philosophy which defines two main spiritual paths. One is the right hand path. It is evident in most forms of religion and mass movements. Its method is the magic of the light and its goal includes that the individual melts together with God. The other path is the left hand path. It emphasizes the unique, the deviant and the exclusive. Its method is dark magic and antinomianism (going against the grain). The goal is to become a god.
The response is obvious, but:
"Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other! My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells. "
Later, after qliphotic stuff: The dark forces [...] make a free will and an individual existence outside God possible.
"An individual existence outside God." I'm not sure what to make of this. "With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit." I know where I'm going: I'm not so sure about these folks. 'The darkness' is indeed real; denying the light though seems... like self-harm, to be honest. |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 09, 2008 - 10:46 PM
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Joined: Sep 10, 2007
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daimonos wrote:
"Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other! My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells."
I really don´t follow you? Maybe I missed the joke.
daimonos wrote:
"An individual existence outside God." I'm not sure what to make of this. "With the God & the Adorer I am nothing: they do not see me. They are as upon the earth; I am Heaven, and there is no other God than me, and my lord Hadit." I know where I'm going: I'm not so sure about these folks. 'The darkness' is indeed real; denying the light though seems... like self-harm, to be honest.
This could be connected to the gnostic idea about the demiurge and the archons.
There is no sense of not working with the Sephiroth and the light side. If you think so you´ve simply got it wrong.
There is no dualism in the Left Hand Path. A huge point of the Left Hand Path is a critique against dualism.
Also, if you know where you are going, then it means you´ve already been there. If you´ve already been there it means you are either standing still or going in circles.
The LHP on the other hand is a journey into the truly unknown - what is dark to us. |
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it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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daimonos |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 10, 2008 - 05:08 PM
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rzk - The Dragon Rouge web site is all about the (rather Gothic) 'dark'. Liber Tzaddi advises a more balanced approach.
There is no sense of not working with the Sephiroth and the light side.
That really doesn't come across in the public material.
if you know where you are going, then it means you´ve already been there.
That's patently untrue. |
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asturel13 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 09:01 AM
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Daimonos, Liber Tzaddi may advise a more 'balanced' approach but to the best of my knowledge it is not written from a LHP perspective, so is therefore not entirely pertinent to the present discussion.
Furthermore, i find it interesting that you would choose to equate 'an individual existence outside of god' with 'self-harm'. The initiate of the LHP would no doubt be of the opinion that "union with the divine" - the ultimate goal of the RHP, is a spiritual suicide of the worst possible kind and counter-productive to ones own progress.
Crowley was a great Occultist, whose work warrants a greater deal of attention than it has hitherto been granted, but he is by no means the 'be all and end all' of the spiritual domain. Rather, his work represents a certain APPROACH to spiritual attainment but it is certainly not the ONLY approach. There were 'spiritual masters' WAY before Crowley's time whose work and ideas we will probably never know and I very much doubt that Crowley is the greatest Occultist who ever lived. Certainly the Greatest Occultist to have graced the pages of the british tabloids, of that there is no doubt. |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 11, 2008 - 09:36 AM
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Joined: Sep 10, 2007
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"That really doesn't come across in the public material."
What more can I say.
"rzk - The Dragon Rouge web site is all about the (rather Gothic) 'dark'. Liber Tzaddi advises a more balanced approach."
"Rather Gothic"? It is expressedly Gothic, in the classical sense.
You even find it in one of the headlines: "Magic · Occultism · Gothicism"
Quote: › The bright side represents an ideal order in religion and in myths, while the dark side represents the wild overgrown infinity that hides beyond the limits of order. The polarity between the bright and the dark is reflected in the conflict between the ideals of classicism and Gothicism. The classical ideals are founded on clarity, reason, light and rules.The gothic ideals are metaphysical and are founded on archaic visions, dreams, the dark and obscure, inspiration and infatuation.
The thinkers of the renaissance viewed the Goths as a sign of the ruination of culture. The gothic was believed to be the utmost anti pole to the classical civilization and the classical ideals of beauty. According to the classical taste the gothic represented something insipid and overgrown, threatening and terrifying. During the end of the 18th century the Gothicism would be reevaluated, however, and the gothic architecture was again appreciated. German intellectuals like Herder and Goethe embraced Gothicism as an aesthetic ideal. Both in England and The Continent artists and writers were fascinated by Gothicism. What had been associated with darkness and the barbarian during the renaissance was now a great source of inspiration. The English romantics sought out the gothic and a feeling of enthusiastic terror instead of the pure, light and structured ideals of the Classicism. In a text from the 18th century one can find a list of things that could cause this feeling of terror. It was "gods, demons, hell, spirits, human souls, enchantments, wizardry, thunder, floods, monsters, fire, war, plague, starvation etc.". During the 19th century a ruin romanticism was developed in art, in which graveyards and ruins of gothic churches are grown over with the untamed nature under the pale full moon. Exploring the dark became a way to increased kno | |
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