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kizaen |
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Post subject: No politics
 Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 03:27 AM
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Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 13
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93
A while back there where some discussions about politics.
I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.
For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema. Would this be because it may affect the practice in a negative?
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject: RE: No politics
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 04:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
Posts: 1140
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Paul,
93,
The Law of Thelema is "Do What Thou Wilt" and I think this will be observed to set people at odds in certain situations. The idea of some fluffy bunny harmony being realized if everyone just "Does Their Will" I don't think is realistic. I do think that much unnecessary conflict would be avoided and things would progress much more smoothly but at present I see the "activation" of the Will as charting a course against the Zeitgeist, which reflects as much a "shadow" of the "Old Aeon" as it does the rising of the "Crowned and Conquering Child."
I had a friend who voted Republican in American Politics as he believed it was the route to ultimate freedom. I was also told that there was a "Thelemic Republican" group some years ago, although it would seem more "natural" that "Thelemites" would sympathize with Libertarianism.
I am not aware of any requirement that one side with or avoid any political persuasion based on Thelemic Ideals. The "Masonic" ideal is that politics not enter into the spirituality and egalitarianism of the Lodgeroom. This is your run of the mill Blue Lodge Masonry. If this is so with "standard" Masonry, how much more so with the sundry Thelemic Groups which function on a Masonic Model (such as OTO, Inc).
Quote: ›
For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema
I believe the "requirement" is geared towards MAGICKAL Orders and NOT "Political Parties" as there is, to my knowledge, no "Thelemic Party" and the basic idea is to keep one's Magickal Alliance from entering into counter-productive conflict.
Quote: ›
I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics
Although it may seem like the trite Thelemic "party line": Be true to yourself and Do What Thou Wilt. There's no point in causing division amongst Thelemites based on convictions in this realm. The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man. I suspect this won't be realized by adhering to the "correct" political party but by living one's life in ever increasing measure to one's Will.
Just my perspective,
Kyle |
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rzk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 01:29 PM
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Joined: Sep 10, 2007
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It seems to me that what we normally speak of as politics is about governing, and as a freedom-lover, I am rather at odds with the whole idea of governing and being controlled by someone else, whether they call themselves politicians or executives. I am not really interested in voting for people to control me, or belong to a party that wants to control me, or accepting the whole notion of having people owning the company where I work and thus controlling my salary, my workinghours and the way the work is to be carried out.
Also, it seems to me that the majority of the money I should gain by working is actually not stolen by the state, but rather by the ones who own the damn business. The state is also probably the best thing that ever happened to the capitalists (now using the word in reference to the class, not some kind of "ideology" - because it is not an ideology), since it is a whole organism devoted to work as some kind of watchdog so that normal people don't take over what should rightly be ours, run by the money that we have earned and making sure that the tensions in society don't grow too great and visible, aswell as making us somehow think that it is the politicians that somehow really control the society, instead of the owners of the Fortune 500 and the controllers of the banks.
As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". |
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it's all in the egg.
in nomine draconis!
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kizaen |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 03:27 PM
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Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 13
Status: Offline
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93 Kyle,
In the case of the Typhonian OTO Preliminary Statement they refer to a "...candidate who is already a member of, or affiliated to any occult, religious or political organization which has not officially accepted the Law of Thelema..." such person would not be able to enter the Order.
What makes me interested in this is to understand if this is a particular requirement of one Thelemic Order (which I happen to have in a very high regard), perhaps for reasons that are not public, or if it is somehow accepted that deep involvement in politics is, at least more often than not, a factor that increases the illusion of identity, as might be any activity based on "defending" ideas instead of really, honestly and openly sharing one s thought. Of course Im not referring to morals or anything like that. Im only looking to the type of activity, which if one is careless might become disruptive to the Work.
93 93/93
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Camlion |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 05:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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93 Paul,
kizaen wrote: › 93
A while back there where some discussions about politics.
I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics.
For instance, if I understand correctly one cannot be a part of the OTO (Typhonian) if one belongs to a political party that has not accepted the Law of Thelema. Would this be because it may affect the practice in a negative?
Paul
POLITICS - per Merriam-Webster: 1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
IMO, there is no more perfectly suited point of reference for such endeavors as politics than the Law of Thelema. To avoid in advance past confusion on the subject in these forums and elsewhere, the goal of a Thelemic political perspective is best expressed as 'the optimum Thelema-friendly environment.'
The true Will of each individual cannot be determined with any certainty, let alone dictated, by external governmental authority. Emphasis thereupon can, however, certainly be acknowledged and encouraged by such authority, and the relegation and hindrance thereof can be discouraged.
In the political models prominent in most modern societies today, emphasis is either 'leftist,' with attention on assuring individual liberties, but at the expense of individual self-reliance, or 'rightist,' with attention on assuring individual self-reliance, but at the expense of individual liberties. Hence, as examples, a typical 'leftist' is pro-lifestyle choice and also pro-government financial assistance. A typical 'rightist' is anti-lifestyle choice and anti-government financial assistance.
Each of these political 'bents' are, in the view of many Thelemites, self-defeating, as both optimum individual liberty and optimum individual self-reliance are necessary to optimum fulfillment of individual true Will. The choice that most of us inevitably face is one of the lesser of the two evils.
Other than this, I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills. 
93 93/93
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 05:39 PM
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Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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kizaen wrote: › 93 Kyle,
In the case of the Typhonian OTO Preliminary Statement they refer to a "...candidate who is already a member of, or affiliated to any occult, religious or political organization which has not officially accepted the Law of Thelema..." such person would not be able to enter the Order.
As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other? |
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kizaen |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 07:07 PM
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Camlion wrote: ›
As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?
93
I see what you mean Camilion (and I agree about what you say about the focus)
Perhaps I should compare this with a wider range of "passions", things that get one involved in an emotional way.
For example if you watch 5 hours a day of TV, few people will doubt it is a pointless hindrance. The thing with politics is that it has the mask of importance. While in a political discussion you can see the same attitude you see in 2 angry hockey players, they have an excuse: it is something "important". It may even escalate to a full blown discussion or fist fight.
Then it shows itself to be not about the subject of discussion itself, something else is there... like pure desire to defend the ego and the things it clings to.
Michael, are you around? ( I think I should say his name three times.... no wait... thats Candyman  )
I´d really like to know what you think about this. And again not about politics in themselves, but about how it tends to affect the Work.
93 93/93 |
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Nataraj418 |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 07:24 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: Taos
Status: Offline
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kizaen wrote: › I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics. Wow! What a loaded question! Sort of like asking about what what thinks about being involved in sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. You know: You can't avoid it, but there are many ramifications - enough certainly to start disputes and cause wars.
Some societies have a "separation of church and state," which I think is a really good thing. But here in the USA, where this "separation" is supposed to be Law, we find (mostly) Christian organizations actively involved in promoting and supporting candidates for political office due to the candidate's stand on "Christian ideals," most notably abortion rights (and, of course, others).
rzk indicates that "As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". Well, I think we should elect Zhuang-Zi as the Supreme Potentate so that he can dissolve all governments.
Crowley said: "Is there a government? then I'm agin it!" - Book of Lies, Chapter 80. I think we should elect Crowley to the Supreme Potentatship so that he can dissolve all governments.
Jahl said, "Anarchy would be great! How would these power-brokers react if everyone were on an equal footing?"
kidneyhawk cited the fact that "The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man." Perhaps the word "claims" is the key here and it leaves one to wonder what this wonderful secret is, because there has certainly been no evidence of it shown to the world that I can detect.
Have you ever noticed how informal, metaphysical discussions often end up on a political note. After all, everyone wants their spiritual ideals to become manifest in the mundane world.
Good Luck on that. Is there a political party or process? I'm agin it!
And finally, it must observed that once a politician gets into office, his or her first priority always becomes "How to STAY in office." The job that they were elected/appointed to perform is secondary to this primary priority - and perhaps even meaningless in the face of retaining power. |
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Nataraj418
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Camlion |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 07:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Nataraj418 wrote: › kizaen wrote: › I just wanted to know what you think about being involved in politics. Wow! What a loaded question! Sort of like asking about what what thinks about being involved in sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. You know: You can't avoid it, but there are many ramifications - enough certainly to start disputes and cause wars.
Some societies have a "separation of church and state," which I think is a really good thing. But here in the USA, where this "separation" is supposed to be Law, we find (mostly) Christian organizations actively involved in promoting and supporting candidates for political office due to the candidate's stand on "Christian ideals," most notably abortion rights (and, of course, others).
rzk indicates that "As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". Well, I think we should elect Zhuang-Zi as the Supreme Potentate so that he can dissolve all governments.
Crowley said: "Is there a government? then I'm agin it!" - Book of Lies, Chapter 80. I think we should elect Crowley to the Supreme Potentatship so that he can dissolve all governments.
Jahl said, "Anarchy would be great! How would these power-brokers react if everyone were on an equal footing?"
kidneyhawk cited the fact that "The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man." Perhaps the word "claims" is the key here and it leaves one to wonder what this wonderful secret is, because there has certainly been no evidence of it shown to the world that I can detect.
Have you ever noticed how informal, metaphysical discussions often end up on a political note. After all, everyone wants their spiritual ideals to become manifest in the mundane world.
Good Luck on that. Is there a political party or process? I'm agin it!
And finally, it must observed that once a politician gets into office, his or her first priority always becomes "How to STAY in office." The job that they were elected/appointed to perform is secondary to this primary priority - and perhaps even meaningless in the face of retaining power. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 19, 2008 - 08:09 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: Offline
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Nataraj418 wrote: › Wow! What a loaded question! Sort of like asking about what what thinks about being involved in sex, drugs, or rock 'n' roll. You know: You can't avoid it, but there are many ramifications - enough certainly to start disputes and cause wars.
Some societies have a "separation of church and state," which I think is a really good thing. But here in the USA, where this "separation" is supposed to be Law, we find (mostly) Christian organizations actively involved in promoting and supporting candidates for political office due to the candidate's stand on "Christian ideals," most notably abortion rights (and, of course, others).
rzk indicates that "As Zhuang-Zi plainly points out: "[the world]... should not be governed...". Well, I think we should elect Zhuang-Zi as the Supreme Potentate so that he can dissolve all governments.
Crowley said: "Is there a government? then I'm agin it!" - Book of Lies, Chapter 80. I think we should elect Crowley to the Supreme Potentatship so that he can dissolve all governments.
Jahl said, "Anarchy would be great! How would these power-brokers react if everyone were on an equal footing?"
kidneyhawk cited the fact that "The OTO claims to possess the secret of realizing the dream of the Universal Brotherhood of Man." Perhaps the word "claims" is the key here and it leaves one to wonder what this wonderful secret is, because there has certainly been no evidence of it shown to the world that I can detect.
Have you ever noticed how informal, metaphysical discussions often end up on a political note. After all, everyone wants their spiritual ideals to become manifest in the mundane world.
Good Luck on that. Is there a political party or process? I'm agin it!
And finally, it must observed that once a politician gets into office, his or her first priority always becomes "How to STAY in office." The job that they were elected/appointed to perform is secondary to this primary priority - and perhaps even meaningless in the face of retaining power.
Pardon the redundant vacant post above. I can no longer delete, so perhaps Paul will do so. Thanks.
I should note that I was being sarcastic above when I wrote: "Other than this, I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills." I've simultaneously been engaged in theurgy and politics for a very long time with no ill effects. A natural interest in either subject is often an indication of true Will in that direction, as with all things.
The separation of church and state is only necessary until 'Do what thou wilt' is the basis of each.
The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants.
Anarchy appeals only to those frustrated by their 'lot in life' in relation to that perceived of others. To each his or her own true Will, no more, no less, as determined by self-awareness and governed by self-discipline.
Some member of OTO would be a better authority on their actual mechanism of universal brotherhood than I. For me, it would begin with self-respect and extend outward in like manor from there.
Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes. |
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Nataraj418 |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 03:10 AM
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Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Taos
Status: Offline
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Camlion wrote: › The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants. This, of course, is absolutely correct.
Camlion wrote: › Some member of OTO would be a better authority on their actual mechanism of universal brotherhood than I. For me, it would begin with self-respect and extend outward in like manor from there. I qualify as your "better authority" (a high rank at that - so that I might stand forth to state that I know what I'm talking about). OTO has no "secret" of universal brotherhood. The claiming of this particular "secret" should possibly be reviewed by the Federal Trade Commission, or at least the Grand Tribunal. Universal Brotherhood is realized by each individual when he/she issues beyond his/her egoic limitations and DIRECTLY PERCEIVES that we are all, indeed, derived from the same source and no better or no worse [and no different] than any other. This is not a matter of belief - It is a matter of experience! There is no "secret" or "mechanism" involved, unless we list meditation (the dhyana "result" - not the beginning practices) or power plants (you know of what I speak) or any other practice that exhausts the ego - but these are certainly not exclusive to the Oriental Templars.
Yes, you are right - It begins with "self-respect" (or self-love or some similar term), which must be accomplished before one can extend it outward in like "manner."
Camlion wrote: › Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes. Absolutely. A very astute observation. This would go a long way towards cleaning out the rat's nest.
Not to detract from the validity of the above paragraph, but in Mexico we find government officials elected to a single 6-year term. Each official then appoints his brothers, cousins, uncles, and friends to every post he has control over. And then they all set to work to fleece the populace to the maximum level, for they need to make their fortune in six short years. The result is one of the crookedest systems around. Well, at least in Mexico they sell their favors on the top of the table; while in the USA it seems the underside of the table is preferred. |
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Nataraj418
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject: RE: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 04:09 AM
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Posts: 158
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
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Camlion wrote: "I do not feel that political discussion is appropriate to Thelema and would rather focus on perfecting the ultimate trance state and honing my ritual skills."
Well, that's certainly well and good for you, but others might find their will to be focused on such matters. "Ultimate trance state" and "ritual skills" might be perfected in others whose will is directed otherwise.
"The world need only be governed in so far as to ensure the greatest possible liberty and self-reliance of its individual inhabitants."
Idealistic but naive. Witness the financial disaster that has befallen Wall Street, as an example. Self-reliance? Pretty hard for the poor to be self-reliant when the failings of trickle-down economics (owing to incessant greed and lack of regulation) leaves only crumbs for the hard-working poor. Wealth, at any rate, doesn't equal greatness. Crowley was hardly self-reliant throughout at least half of his life. Many times he was kept alive owing to the generosity of those whom his women had to beg for cash. He squandered his fortune and, when bills came due, he often ran the other way.
"Anarchy appeals only to those frustrated by their 'lot in life' in relation to that perceived of others. To each his or her own true Will, no more, no less, as determined by self-awareness and governed by self-discipline."
Anarchy can at times be the best course of action for change. Often anarchists are born out of societal mismanagement and corruption.
"Politicians should be bound by term limits without possibility of reelection beyond those limits. A temporary public service post, never a career. A simple solution toward purging the system of the assholes."
Absolute power corrupts absolutely? Not if we're talking about destined masters of will. The best thing is to ensure that the process breeds true regents, and to weed out the corrupt.
If Thelemites want to succeed in a secular world, they should, I would think, make an effort to choose to support the lesser of two evils, and recognize that the political system will be driven against the objectives of liberty and justice, in favor of mere secular corporate interests, with lies and cover-ups standing in the way of righteousness. |
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 04:46 AM
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Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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Camlion wrote: › kizaen wrote: › 93 Kyle,
In the case of the Typhonian OTO Preliminary Statement they refer to a "...candidate who is already a member of, or affiliated to any occult, religious or political organization which has not officially accepted the Law of Thelema..." such person would not be able to enter the Order.
As an aside, I would like to know if this is true or not. Certainly there are those of Thyphonian Thelema with membership here who could say one way or the other?
It was certainly true when I was a member, and I expect it still is. |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 05:08 AM
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Posts: 149
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Nataraj418 wrote: › I qualify as your "better authority" (a high rank at that - so that I might stand forth to state that I know what I'm talking about). OTO has no "secret" of universal brotherhood
Actually, though you may be of "high rank" (whatever that is), you seem to be misinformed on what Crowley was referring to in this instance. As can be seen in section XX of Book 414 when Crowley advertised through his propoganda effort this secret of realizing the universal brotherhood he had a specific secret in mind and it was not your concepts of meditational practices.
Whether or not this secret would qualify for (as you bring up) trade secret protection or indeed if it is capable of realizing this brotherhood of man is another discussion entirely. |
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Nataraj418 |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 01:29 PM
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Posts: 74
Location: Taos
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Patriarch156 wrote: › Actually, though you may be of "high rank" (whatever that is), you seem to be misinformed on what Crowley was referring to in this instance. As can be seen in section XX of Book 414 when Crowley advertised through his propoganda effort this secret of realizing the universal brotherhood he had a specific secret in mind and it was not your concepts of meditational practices. "High Rank" means I have seen the elephant and know all his "secrets." There is no need to list numbers and grades and sanctuaries.
I am not misinformed. The claim that one possesses the "Secret of Universal Brotherhood" is equal to the claim that you will go to heaven if you will simply believe in Jesus, or that you will enter paradise if you are a successful suicide-bomber.
De Arte Magica [414] deals with the "secret" of sexual magick. There is no connection between this (hardly secret any more) technique and Universal Brotherhood, unless one considers that (almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Whether or not this secret would qualify for (as you bring up) trade secret protection or indeed if it is capable of realizing this brotherhood of man is another discussion entirely. Reference to the Federal Trade Commission was related to false advertising (which they investigate), not "trade secret protection."
In respect of others' comments on Anarchy, it is perhaps notable that there are many areas on our planets that are true "no man's lands" - that is, there is no government, there is no law, there is simply one's self and there are other people, and everyone gets along (or takes offense and attacks others) based on the energies and attitudes of the moment. I would hope that anyone commenting on anarchy has indeed experienced the joy of being in such a lawless, ungoverned state. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 01:35 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2389
Location: Oxford, UK
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Nataraj418 wrote: › I would hope that anyone commenting on anarchy has indeed experienced the joy of being in such a lawless, ungoverned state.
Indeed.
Ask the Rwandans, the Cambodians... Hell, ask the residents of any of a huge number of sink estates. As the really rather intelligent Stephen Fry observes: "Mankind can live free in a society hemmed in by laws, but we have yet to find a historical example of mankind living free in lawless anarchy."
Anyone who considers Crowley to have been an anarchist has seriously misunderstood the point! |
_________________
Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject: Re: No politics
Posted: Sep 20, 2008 - 04:07 PM
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Glad we cleared up the "high rank" question, since your answer only confirmed my suspicions.
Nataraj418 wrote: › I am not misinformed. The claim that one possesses the "Secret of Universal Brotherhood" is equal to the claim that you will go to heaven if you will simply believe in Jesus, or that you will enter paradise if you are a successful suicide-bomber. De Arte Magica [414] deals with the "secret" of sexual magick. There is no connection between this (hardly secret any more) technique and Universal Brotherhood, unless one considers that (almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another.
Again as I pointed out whether or not this is workable is a different question as to just what Crowley meant when using this rhetorical device in his propoganda effort on behalf of the O.T.O. As such I do not deny you the right to claim that it is unworkable or even that it no longer is "secret" (if it ever were) in any conventional sense of the word, I am merely pointing out what Crowley wrote on the actual subject of the supposed secret that had the power fo realizing the universal brotherhood of man.
Your misinformed assertions that Book 414 has nothing to do with this "secret" aside, my reference to it was merely to bring to your attention that the 414 lists the actual "secret." If you choose to dismiss it as being about "(almost) everyone engages in sex at one time or another" that is really up to you, but it still wouldn't make you informed about the subject matter. |
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Camlion |
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