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I have never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck.
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject: Confessions again
 Posted: Apr 15, 2005 - 04:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 643
Location: Munick / Germany
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93, all!
Does anybody remember the recent discussion about the Confessions? Seems I can't find the original thread. Anyway, today I received a book from Caduceus Books, a Sotheby's catalogue from July 1971. Whoa! Rare AC stuff! Really rare! Most of it bought Jimmi Page. But I don't want to complain, I just found the following item:
Crowley Aleister, The Confessions, Typescripts of Parts 3-6 containing ca. 130 pages not printed by Symonds and Grant.
130 pages! Does anybody here know if these pages were included in a later edition than the 1969 Confessions (the catalogue refers to that edition)? If not, I change my mind and start complaining: I would like to read that material!
Love=Law
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Excoriator |
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Post subject: Re: Confessions again
Posted: Apr 19, 2005 - 09:37 AM
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Posts: 69
Location: Edenglassie
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the_real_simon_iff wrote: › Does anybody remember the recent discussion about the Confessions?
Certainly.
the_real_simon_iff wrote: › Seems I can't find the original thread.
Yeah. What's up with the Lashtal search engine? I can't find things sometimes. That thread is here.
the_real_simon_iff wrote: › 130 pages! Does anybody here know if these pages were included in a later edition than the 1969 Confessions (the catalogue refers to that edition)? If not, I change my mind and start complaining: I would like to read that material!
So say all of us, I imagine. All the editions since have been the Symonds/Grant version; which is why there is quite a bit of keenality, to get that other material, about. Hadn't heard about who had the typescripts, so thanks for that. It doesn't say if that was the edited version, I suppose? And Red Flame has a listing for the galley proofs of Part III, annotated by A.C., described as if they were published in 1969.
Viz: http://www.redflame93.com/DeskC.html
Anyone know anything about that? And what about this item?
http://www.666books.com/oddities/memoirsharvey.jpg
Wot th' hell is that?
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 20, 2005 - 07:58 PM
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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In the introduction to the first edition of the Confessions, John Symonds writes:
" This is the text of all six volumes, after some redundancies have been removed: Crowley dictated the work to the Ape of Thoth while under the influence of heroin, which made him at times a little verbose."
By 1945, Crowley had lost the galley proofs of the third volume and the scripts of the remaining 3 volumes were scattered amongst his papers. At Symonds' urging, Crowley collected them all together and gave them to a typist to type them all up, sending a copy to Symonds and complaining that it had cost him almost £40 to get them all typed up.
From this, it should be clear that the Confessions as published by Symonds and Grant is pretty much what Crowley intended, as he himself had had it typed up, presumably correcting where necessary. As for Symonds' "redundancies", the word means stuff that wasn't necessary. I presume this to mean passages where Crowley probably repeats himself or rambles on about nothing, or stuff irrelevant to his life; anyone who has tried to have a conversation with someone stoned will know that they can go off on all sorts of tangents, and repeat themselves several times (go on, admit it, we've all done it  )
Personally, the mention of 130 pages of "missing" stuff doesn't quite ring true to me; if there really was 130 pages of NEW, never before published Crowley material out there, it would have been published by now. Absolutely nothing of what these "extra" pages supposedly contain has ever been leaked, and I strongly suspect that if they ever surface, there will be nothing there that we don't know already. I very much doubt there are amazing revelations that have been deliberately hidden from us, or new information that enables us to look at AC in a new light. Very probably, it was left out for a perfectly simple good reason; it was rubbish.
And finally, on old paper sizes, and an old fashioned typewriter, printing double-spaced as a professional typist would do, 130 pages wouldn't contain a lot of text; if it had made it into the Confessions, printed single-spaced with a smaller font size than typescript, it would probably only amount to about 15 extra pages, if that. |
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OKontrair |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 20, 2005 - 09:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 18, 2004
Posts: 205
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93
Parts 1 & 2 were published in 1929 of a projected six volumes with a seventh to be given 'free' to anyone who subscribed to the whole set.
Volume 3 was taken as far as proof stage, corrected by AC and went through a second proof stage which AC also marked up for the printer. These proof sets went to Australia with P.R.Stevenson. They are in the State Library of New South Wales.
Gerald Yorke had a copy of the whole six volume typescript. Volume 7 so far as I know never came into being. Here is his description of what he had (from a 1951 list he prepared for the Warburg with the latest datable addition by him being 1971):
L14 14 The Confessions. Being the unpublished portion. Two volumes were published by the Mandrake Press. These are the remainder.
a. (a) Typescript of Vol 3 copied from the galley proofs.
b. (b) German translation of the above, done from the original typescript and a few variations including a little more material than (a)
c. (c) These 4 Vols are headed The Sacred Magic of Abramelin the Mage
Nos. 74 - 88 covering pp96 - 364
89 - 108 365 - 676
109 - 126 677 - 1010
127 - 138 1011 - 1234
The numbers 74 - 88 etc refer to folders containing sheaves of pages. L14 and 14 etc are Yorke's own reference numbers.
I have a copy of the 1971 Sotheby's catalogue and the item sold there is so very similar to this that I take it to be identical. It sold for £50! If you look further on in the catalogue you will find a copy of Household Gods with the name Frater Aossic inscribed. This is Kenneth Grant. My conjecture would be that the copy of Confessions sold by Sotheby's originated with Yorke's copy and was sold by Grant after he'd finished working on it for the 1969 version.
In the Karl Germer version of Magick Without Tears (1954) there are references in a footnote to entries in Confessions Volume 4 referred to by page number. It's not always clear in the Germer MWT which footnotes are his and which AC's. Some are obviously one or the other but this one could be either. AC for instance states perfectly clearly that he wrote the Tunis Comment in Paris and Germer footnotes this as 'Error, Tunis 1925'
Regardie alters the Volume 4 page numbers to conform to the 1969 (USA 1970) version of Confessions. Any one good at maths (that's me out) could probably calculate the volume of missing material by analysing the differences.
Yorke did not so far as I know relinquish his Confessions material to Symonds and Grant but must have passed over a copy. Yorke's material is, again so far as I know, in the Warburg.
Confessions itself was not written as a book but actually drew together lots of ACs other diaries and articles with some trimming and padding done to make it fit together. As an example of the kind of thing left out there is a magazine article by Crowley describing a sudden rain storm in the Sahara Desert. I don't know the name of the magazine article because I have only seen a typed out copy (by Yorke). Anyway the whole thing is in Confessions except for the opening sentence which goes something like "I filled my rucksack with tobacco and set out....."
The 1969 reference on Redflame is on a different line to the other stuff and doesn't relate to this matter.
The 'Memoirs of Aleister Crowley' book is just a porno novel drawing on newspaper reports and a very fertile imagination. Not by AC and nothing very much really to do with him.
And that's all I know. Or at least think I do.
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 21, 2005 - 10:01 AM
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Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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I doubt that the copy sold at Sotheby's came from Grant; he has, to the best of my knowledge, kept everything. Yorke gave Grant copies of all his Crowley material, but Yorke himself sold over half of his collection before his death, and it was only the remnants that got deposited at the Warburg. Yorke sold most of his stuff to a bookdealer named Mortlake? Westlake? (I did know the name, but can't remember it exactly). Most of what Yorke sold was stuff he had more than one copy of. Crowley had got four copies of the Confessions typed up, one he gave to Symonds, and it's highly probable that he sent one to Yorke too. Yorke would probably have aquired one or both of the other copies after Crowley's death. So the pages sold at Sotheby's would most likely have originated from Yorke, whether it was Yorke himself who put them up for auction, or the bookdealer.
Symonds has only recently, in the last few years, sold off his Crowley material. The book inscribed by Aossic was probably a gift to Yorke, who later sold it.
Most original Crowley stuff that appears on the open market, such as typescripts etc, comes from the material Yorke sold, and more recently, from Symonds' collection that was sold a couple of years ago. |
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 21, 2005 - 02:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 643
Location: Munick / Germany
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93!
I also doubt that there are totally unknown facts or secrets about AC's life in these missing 130 pages. But you can't say that 130 pages would just sum up to ca. 15 pages of rubbish. Parts 3 to 6 of these typescripts are 1026 pages in total, so we are talking about nearly 13% of these parts of the Confessions (it still might all be rubbish although).
Also my mind is working differently sometimes. Then I feel that if these missing pages would contain just useless and uninteresting nonsense, redundancies, rubbish, etc. they would have been published (not as a book) somewhere. To keep them secret would make more sense if ...
Ah, well, fyi here is the complete description of the catalogue:
234 CROWLEY (ALEISTER) THE CONFESSIONS; TYPESCRIPTS OF PARTS 3-6 CONTAINING C. 130 PAGES NOT PRINTED BY SYMONDS AND GRANT (The Confessions, 1969), 1,026 pages, 3 parts bound in green cloth, 1 loose in a folder, some MS. annotations, 1 MS. enclosure, typescript note by P.R. Stephenson giving the provenance of Vol. 3
4to
* These typescripts are the author's continuation to Parts 1-2 published in 1929 by the Mandrake Press.
The most substantial blocks of unpublished material occur in Part IV (pp. 163-186) and Part V (pp. 156-170 and 188-201). Amomg minor differences from the printed book may be mentioned the division of the autohagiography into "stanzas" in these typescripts. A few minor passages present in the printed version do not appear here (e.g.: Part III ends c. 1 page before the book; gap in Part III, p. 23, occasioned by a loss of galley).
Included with this lot is the typescript for Part III of The Confessions in German.
I am unsure if an auction house is researching its items so well and so far as to even comparing it page for page with a printed version of such a typescript. To me it seems that this description was provided from the former owner. Also my English is not good enough to know if the word "substantial" is used in this instance referring to the quantity of missing blocks of text or the substantiality of its contents. In German the latter would be the case. This would speak against Symonds or Grant as the former owner. To me at least.
Dang. Gotta work again...
Love=Law
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Post subject: Clarifications re. Confessions
Posted: Apr 21, 2005 - 10:48 PM
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Hello all. There seem to be many misconceptions cropping up on this thread. I write as one who has had a long interest in these matters, and have met and known a number of the people named, as well as spending the equivalent of several months studying in the Warburg on a daily basis throughout the late eighties and early nineties.
The Sotheby's material mentioned all came (posthumously) from the collection of Norman Robb, the Australian bookseller who was a friend of Yorke's. There is quite a bit about him in Keith Richmond's Progradior and the Beast. The material at that auction was largely bought on behalf of Jimmy Page, The University of Texas (Harry Ransom Humanities Research Center) and I believe, although am not certain, Kenneth Anger. It had nothing to do with Grant.
Yorke did not "sell over half of his collection to Mortlake before his death." Harold Mortlake was a bookseller who supplied Yorke with Crowley material, and Yorke did dispose of a few duplicates to him. Certainly not 'half his collection.' Even a cursory glance at what is in the Warburg would assure that it is not "only the remnants." Yorke was quite fanatical about his collection and kept everything except a few 'ordinary' duplicates that he had to buy as part of 'job lots' to get other material that he required. That is the very reason why he went out of its way - despite a lot of difficulty - to get his collection a permanent home in the Warburg (they weren't that keen to have it at all - it doesn't fit in with their general theme at all). A tiny amount of rare material (some typescripts etc.) that had been Yorke's apparently ended up with Mortlake, but this would not amount to a fraction of one percent of what is in the Warburg, and it seems probable that it was simply stuff Yorke had 'at home' when he died, and it was disposed of - along with his non-Crowley books - to Mortlake by his family, who probably didn't have a clue what it was. Note I say probable - unlike most of what's written here this is surmise rather than certainty, but it is the obvious explanation.
Typescripts of the Confessions circulated for years, but Vol. III, which reached page proofs, was considered lost, except for a (not very good) German translation in typescript, until Norman Robb (see above) got in touch with Crowley's old publisher, P. R. Stephensen, and discovered he still had the original proofs (now in the Mitchell Library). Robb had several typescripts of the proofs made, and supplied Yorke with one, now in the Warburg (unless some rotter has stolen it!). It was of course Robb's typescript that was in the auction. Yorke had been trying to trace a copy of the third vol. of the Confessions for years, and it was he that Yorke that encouraged Robb to track down Stephensen. Correspondence about all of this is in the Warburg.
Yorke supplied Symonds and Grant with the typescripts of The Confessions, including the third volume, which he'd got from Robb a decade earlier. Thus they had access to it when they did their abridgement. I've seen it, and indeed have a copy. It does include quite a bit of material that wasn't published in the abridgement, but no more than they left out of the first two vols. If you want a sense of the extent of the abridgement, get hold of a copy of the original Mandrake edition of the first 2 vols. of the Confessions, and read that against the Symonds and Grant edition. They did quite a bit of pruning, mostly of stuff they considered inconsequential, like details of his mountaineering. No conspiracy as such, just (quite heavy) editing, and a bit sad for those, like myself, who happen to like mountaineering! Sorry, but Symonds and Grant would not be my choice of editors for AC.
Symonds never had much Crowley material at all. He didn't collect and only temporarily had possession of some of AC's estate before passing it on to Germer (though he took his time about it). When I first met Symonds some twenty years ago and visited his house, he had only ONE Crowley item, a drawing, and lamented that he'd sold the few things he'd had very cheaply years before. Subsequent to that he bought a few Firsts at auction - which he then resold ..... I sometimes wonder whether the buyer realised that they were buying items that he'd got only recently ... or thought they'd come more or less direct from the Beast himself.
As I said, all the material in that particular Sotheby's auction from Robb. I haven't got my copy of the catalogue at hand, but if there was an Aossic book in it, Robb got it from Grant, or perhaps it was passed to him via Yorke as a gift (remember Robb was the source of the typescript of the third volume). Yorke was RICH and certainly did not need to sell things, nor did he except in the case of a FEW duplicates.
Kenneth Grant secretly sold off the Crowley high points of his collection about fifteen years ago, via two well-known English dealers. As far as I know it was only his Crowley firsts - no manuscripts or letters, and no Spare material. I have no idea why, but the obvious guess would be he needed the money. The best of the books were truly unique, and included first editions of the Holy Books, and Aceldama (two of the rarest that I recall seeing). In some he had removed or attempted to remove his 'Aossic' signature and sigil, but in others it was still quite visible (presumably to remove it would have wrecked the book).
Sorry, but it is simply nonsense to say that "Most original Crowley stuff that appears on the open market, such as typescripts etc, comes from the material Yorke sold, and more recently, from Symonds' collection that was sold a couple of years ago." I repeat, Symonds had NOTHING original, and Yorke disposed of very little. I think the writer is mistakenly referring to the Crowleyana from the Naylor collection (which was put together over fifteen or so years from a wide variety of sources, and was dispersed by Ben Fernee. It included some recent Symonds letters etc pertaining to the republication of the Confessions, as well as some Yorke material acquired from Mortlake. Perhaps that is why Alastrum is confused on the matter. It was just one of a number of collections of books that have been sold in the last two decades. Fortunately, Crowley books, typescripts etc. turn up in all sorts of unlikely places.
Finally, there is a WEALTH of unpublished Crowley material - a lot of which is far more interesting than the bits that Symonds and Grant left out of the Confessions, though a full edition of that would still be something to see!. Aside from hundreds of GOOD letters, and thousands of ones that aren't really of any consequence, there are things like the 'Royal Court' diaries from the 1940s, each of which is a book in itself, to name just a few.. The reason these haven't been published is the copyright issue. Now that it has - in some jurisdictions anyway - been settled, they may be published, though the OTO has spoken of doing some things for decades, but produced very little. Don't hold your breath boys and girls, though hopes springs eternal.
Finally, the Harvey 'Memoirs of Aleister Crowley' that someone asked about is crap. Its basically a sensational pot-boiler that someone cobbled together from 'The Great Beast.' Its entirely derivative nonsense, with nothing original, which is why its fallen into justifiable obscurity. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 21, 2005 - 11:13 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Oxford, UK
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 21, 2005 - 11:40 PM
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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| I agree; very informative, and thanks for clearing a few points up. If I may be allowed a word in my defence though, I was not "confused", nor was I spouting from the top of my head; my information came from a well-known bookdealer in Thelemic items. Perhaps he had been misinformed... although, I have seen it written elsewhere that Yorke's collection in the 1950's was apparently far greater than what now resides in the Warburg. As I wasn't even born then, and never met Yorke, I can't vouch for the accuracy of that, but it does seem odd that other people who did know Yorke seem to think this. Then again, the Warburg has not been scrupulous in its care of Yorke's collection; I know for a fact that items I have personally seen there in the 90's are no longer in the collection, presumably stolen. |
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Post subject: Confessions, Yorke, Warburg etc.
Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 02:04 AM
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Forgive me if I caused offense Alastrum, my reply was written in great haste, and was perhaps a bit intemperate. Also, I have a deep and profound respect for Gerald Yorke, and took a certain amount of offense myself at the suggestion that he'd sold off much of his collection. As is well known, he took an oath to do all he could to gather and preserve the work of the Beast and I believe he fulfilled it to the best of his ability.
Frankly, if the "well-known Thelemic bookseller" said that Yorke had sold much of his collection (other than obvious duplicates), I'm sure he was simply wrong. Aside from the fact that I (and many others) were around at the time and know that he didn't, there is no evidence that Mortlake had more than a tiny amount - he produced no catalogues listing huge quantities of AC treasures, there is no-one around saying "yes .... remember all these wonderful Crowley things Harold had" etc etc. In fact, how many readers of this can honestly say they'd even heard of Mortlake until now - surely they would have if he'd dispersed half the largest collection of Crowleyana in the world!
Sadly Alastrum, you are ABSOLUTELY right about the amount of theft at the Warburg, particularly in the early years. It would have made Yorke weep.
Given this theft, I would say that anyone should be VERY suspicious of any AC rarity they are offered with marks of Yorke's ownership on it (he was a manic annotator, and had a distinctive handwriting, and usually intialled everything), unless they are absolutely sure that it has a legitimate provenance. A suspicious cynic might say that it could well be in the interests of some who are likely to sell or handle such (stolen, or at least possibly stolen) items to overstate the amount of Yorke material that might have legitimately ended up on the market place, and could deliberately have spread disinformation to that effect, which could well have been repeated in good faith by others (as with Alastrum). Of course none of us are suspicious cynics though.
Alastrum, I am curious about your statement that "I have seen it written elsewhere that Yorke's collection in the 1950's was apparently far greater than what now resides in the Warburg" - can I ask where that was? Would be very interested as to who said this. Cheers, and again apologies if I seemed snappy - don't admit to being a curmudgeon for nothing! |
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Excoriator |
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Post subject: Re: Confessions, Yorke, Warburg etc.
Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 07:31 AM
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Joined: Jul 25, 2004
Posts: 69
Location: Edenglassie
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Ta very much, Mr. Curmudgeon! That really was most informative. The letters are another very interesting issue. I have heard that the correspondence with that Portuguese chap is particularly good. One can only hope that these things sort themselves out in the fullness of time.
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Post subject: correction re. mortlake - nothing to do with Confessions
Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 08:17 AM
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| Just before someone blasts me ...perhaps deservedly ... it suddenly occured to me that it might have been Gerald Mortlake not Harold as I said (all in haste from memory). The major lot of material held by Mortlake that had definitely been in Yorke's hands related to the Thoth tarot, and ended up in the Naylor collection, later sold by Caduceus. As far as I'm aware no-one knows the details of how Mortlake ended up with this, though if anyone finds a receipt or some correspondence in which Yorke refers to selling it I'm willing to stand corrected! Until then my guess is it was acquired after Yorke's death. Sorry this has nothing to do with the Confessions. |
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 06:50 PM
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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Quote: › Kenneth Grant secretly sold off the Crowley high points of his collection about fifteen years ago, via two well-known English dealers. As far as I know it was only his Crowley firsts - no manuscripts or letters, and no Spare material. I have no idea why, but the obvious guess would be he needed the money. The best of the books were truly unique, and included first editions of the Holy Books, and Aceldama (two of the rarest that I recall seeing). In some he had removed or attempted to remove his 'Aossic' signature and sigil, but in others it was still quite visible (presumably to remove it would have wrecked the book).
This intrigued me, so I made some enquiries. While it is true that Grant maintains a working library, rather than hang on to books forever, it is NOT true to say that he would give up books given him as gifts by the very man who gave him his greatest direction in life. Grant has NOT sold his Crowley firsts, at least such as he has. I don't think he ever even had Acaldema. This seems to me to be merely a case (and I believe it is quite common in the book trade) of someone thinking of how much more they could get for a Crowley first edition if it was signed by Kenneth Grant. Any inscriptions would therefore be forgeries. To the best of my knowledge, very little original Grant material has found its way onto the market (and I know because I've tried to get hold of it! They won't even sell direct, never mind to a dealer.) |
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 22, 2005 - 06:59 PM
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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| Sorry, forgot to answer your question about Yorkes collection. I honestly can't remember exactly where I read this, but I think it was either in an exchange of letters between Louis Wilkinson and Frieda Harris, or in an article about them and their relationship with Yorke. Something about Yorke getting his hands on absolutely everything... they feared it, and wished to prevent it, if possible. |
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Post subject: aceldama etc.
Posted: Apr 23, 2005 - 12:01 AM
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Alastrum. Sorry - I wasn't clear. I certainly didn't say that Grant ""would give up books given him as gifts by the very man who gave him his greatest direction in life." None of the books in the collection was inscribed by Crowley to Grant, nor (as I said) were there any of the letters, typescripts etc. which we no Grant has. Nor do I think that Crowley would even have had copies of works like Aceldama etc. to give him at the late stage of his life when they met. The conclusion is that the books that were sold were things that Grant had himself bought over the intervening years.
There is no question about their authenticity. As I said, the collection was sold anonymously - it was not claimed to be Grant's. The ownership marks that were in the books were all sigils or "Aossic." Frankly neither the sellers, nor most of the buyers even knew who "Aossic" was at that stage. You have to remember that at that stage Grant didn't have the stature he does now - I can remember piles of the limited edition of Crowley's Magical Record SIGNED by he and Symonds sitting on REMAINDER tables only a few years earlier (the first of Images and Oracles was remaindered too, as was the now much sought after Outside the Circles of Time). Aside from anything else, there would have been no point in forging marks of Grant's ownership as the books were not sold as having anything to do with him, nor at that stage would it have increased the value if they had. Its only in the last decade - and only SOME dealers that put a significant value on Grant's signature.
I can assure you the buyer of the Aceldama and some of the others had no clue who this Aossic person was when he bought it, and certainly wouldn't have paid more for it as a result. Indeed he is an 'old school' Thelemite who is at best dubious about Grant's innovative approach to Thelema. He simply wanted a first of Aceldama!
In short, there is no doubt that a significant number of the books in the lot once belonged to Grant. Given the overall quality and rarity of the collection, and the fact that it was sold strictly anonymously, the logical conclusion is that it was him quietly selling off some high points of his collection. There may be another explanation, but I can't think what.
As I said I have no idea why, other than fund raising To be honest, I suspect that they probably were sold to dealers rather than acquaintances to avoid all the problems of people wanting things they couldn't afford (lets face it most occultist don't have a lot of money, and we were talking real rarities here), the difficulty of determining a fair price when selling to friends, avoiding people's noses getting out of joint in squabbles over who got which treasure, and the need to hound them if they didn't pay, etc. etc. By selling to reputable dealers he got a high percentage of the (then) market value, paid on the spot, no trouble. Think about it - if it were me in that situation I'd have done exactly the same thing. And I'd keep mum about it for the same reasons!
I do know a number of people that acquired pieces from the collection, and have asked the owner of Aceldama to send scans to Paul. If he'll be so kind he can either post them or email them to you, so you know this isn't all a fantasy. Cheers. Curmudgeon |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: Re: aceldama etc.
Posted: Apr 23, 2005 - 12:12 AM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Oxford, UK
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curmudgeon wrote: › I do know a number of people that acquired pieces from the collection, and have asked the owner of Aceldama to send scans to Paul. If he'll be so kind he can either post them or email them to you, so you know this isn't all a fantasy.
Thanks - I'll forward them to Alastrum...
Paul
webmaster@lashtal.com |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 23, 2005 - 02:14 AM
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Site Admin
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Alastrum |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 23, 2005 - 11:24 AM
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Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
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Curmudgeon, you say that no-one would have known who Grant was when these books were sold, and talk about editions of Grant's books being remaindered, as if these two events were related. But 'The Magical Record of the Beast 666' was published in 1972, and 'Images & Oracles of AOS' was published in 1975: you said in an earlier post that the Crowley firsts were sold "fifteen years ago", which by my reckoning is 1990. Now, while it is true to say that perhaps not as many people back in 1972 and 1975 knew who Kenneth Grant was, by 1990 a lot of people knew who he was, certainly in Thelemic and Crowleyana circles. In 1990, Grant's "stature" was no less than it is today, and while as an author he may not be that familiar to the general public, to people who buy Crowley first editions he would be very well-known indeed!
Secondly, there are many Crowley books that Grant has never even owned in ANY edition, first, paperback, or anything. Grant's primary interest has always been Magick: he's not a book-collector for collecting's sake, and works such as Acaldema, and other early Crowley works, just don't interest him. Also not interesting to him is "fund-raising"; money has never been Grant's motivation. He is, in fact, what used to be called "a gentleman of means" and has absolutely no need to occasionally sell a few bits and pieces from his collection to pay the gas bill!
Thirdly, just consider the logic: you say that these books were "secretly" sold; but then they have Grant's personal sigil emblazoned across them! Not very "secret" is it? Grant has been using that sigil since the late 30's/early 40's, and it has appeared as a letterhead on his personal stationary from then until the present day, so many people over the years will have had access to it, even before it appeared in publication. Anonymity can never be guaranteed, especially if one leaves one's name in a book, so to imply that Grant wished to dispose of some of his collection "secretly" just doesn't sound right. Why would he do this "secretly" when he could probably get more money by selling them openly? (If indeed money was the motive, as you repeatedly suggest?). Why sell "secretly" at all, in fact? What's to hide? Grant's ownership would give the items a genuine and respected provenance, so it makes no sense to hide this fact. Don't you think that, over the years, Grant hasn't had countless offers for his Crowleyana, or his Spare's, and probably from very wealthy collectors? Yet, despite undoubtedly high offers, he's never parted with anything. I myself know of several offers of purchase to the Grant's for various items, (not just Crowleyana, but Spare material, Steffi's artwork etc), and they have consistently refused to sell anything. I also know someone who has a large collection of Spare artwork, greater than Grant's, and who would dearly love to own one or two of Grant's pieces, and would quite happily pay more than they would fetch on the open market for the privilege of doing so, but Grant emphatically will not sell. So "fund-raising" can hardly be a consideration here. Your argument as to why he wouldn't sell to other occultists is built on the shakiest of foundations: these are the very people most likely to buy the material anyway, whether it came direct from Grant or via a bookdealer! Who else would even be interested? So why insert an unecessary middleman?
Fourthly, it is a fact that people pay more for signed books than unsigned; people will pay more for a Crowley book if it is signed by Crowley. People will also pay more for a Grant book if it is signed by Grant. Even 15 years ago, an unsigned copy of "Outside the Circles of Time" was selling for £150, today almost £250. Some of our own signed deluxe editions of Grant's work, sell for £400 or more on the open market. It is unfortunately very common in the antique and collectible book trade for signatures to be forged, and what better deal for a bookdealer to offer than a Crowley first edition that appeared to have been once owned by Kenneth Grant? Depending on your point of view, a book by the greatest occultist of the 20th century signed by the second greatest? It's a bookseller's dream! I do not wish to suggest that the person who sold these books actually forged the signatures or sigils themselves as I have no proof of that, but there is no doubt these are forgeries. Having looked at the scans you kindly sent, I can say categorically, this is NOT Kenneth Grant's handwriting. And even a 6 yr old could copy the sigil. You say there can be no doubt of their authenticity, but I'm afraid there is every doubt. It's the way of the world: as long as there is demand, someone will supply. I would suggest therefore, that the reason these books are described as "secretly sold" is simply because the inscriptions etc are faked, and the forger didn't want the sale coming to general attention, and perhaps getting back to Grant.
Finally, forgive me, but I saved my Ace until last: we simply asked him! The answer is "No". They didn't come from him. |
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Post subject: Aceldama etc.
Posted: Apr 23, 2005 - 09:41 PM
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in 1° 
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in 15° 
: Anno IVxvi 
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