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nlwrykyy |
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Post subject: Doing as thou wilt...
 Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 02:56 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2008
Posts: 9
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Hello everyone, I'm new here as you can surely see, but not very new to thelema - the ideology has been with me for a long time and I have been reading up on it, more or less through time, for a couple years, but only recently has it become more important. I was reading some of the posts on here, as well as some writings done by others... which leads me to this question:
Are you a thelemite because you want the freedom to wreak havoc and act in obscene ways, to leave no excuses for lude behaviour, to hurt others and then blame them for their own weaknesses? It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of barbarism that people are willing to go to in the name of Thelema, which is Do as thou wilt, but I believe Aleister Crowley thinks that his most successful students will have good wills in the first place. Let's remember, from Liber Al:
<i> ...Let there be no difference made among you between any one thing & any other thing; for thereby
there cometh hurt.
I,23: But whoso availeth in this, let him be the chief of all! </i>
In other words, follow your will, but hurt others, and there will come hurt to you. I read one user in a post saying that one may always do one's will, but keep in mind that their are consequences or results for your actions. But he who sees himself as one with everything, who treats others as he wants himself to be treated, only he becomes the secret chief, who has the will to stomp down on others when necessary... even so, shouldn't we assume that such a chief only does this to those who have earned such punishment?
Thelema is very powerful, and it is the law of the few, not the many. One may hear, "Do what thou wilt," and think it's safe to go rob a store, but the most important task in life is to find one's true will. How many have done this? How many people are willing to accept that their true will may not even be that significant?
Thelema in the hands of the wise produces strong and wise leaders, the weak, barbarians, selfish brats, who become the pawn of the strong and wise. It would have been better that he didn't give any emphasis to thelema at all, and instead let the right people find it when they are ready. The truly untrained hears the sound of thelema and the reptilian-based ego perks up. |
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
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Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 06:40 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
There is much discussion throughout the forum regarding what constitutes so seemingly simple a statement as "Do what thou wilt" as opposed to "Do what you want".
To define it in a simple way I would propose:
Do What You Want, is based upon the usually fleeting emotions common to the great majority of all men and women.
Anyone can achieve their "wants" for good or bad--for themselves, and others---each according to the merits, faults, and quirks of their unique and peculiar personage.
Do What Thou Wilt, could be likened unto the triple flame of the letter Shin:
meaning a union of Body-Mind-and Spirit---whence one's Godhood--so to say---is made fully manifest---and not just upon Malkuth!
Assuming one has discovered his or her true will, this does not necessarily mean that one is destined to achieve the culmination of their dedication to so great a work in any one lifetime; three is usually sufficient!
The first to master the physical trials and ordeals of so great an endeavor.
The second to recollect and rectify all prior mistakes--and using the mastery of the mind guided by the highest Light--Within,
attaining to that certain grade of adepthood best left to be experienced.
The third, to bring it all together--in an amazingly splendid way!
By this time, the Magus has remade his world--according to his magistry--waxing triumphant, enjoying the fruit of his labor.
Or, to give an even better example--which some might take issue with:
You can study medicine to become a doctor--just to make big bucks---and succeed;
or do the same thing to help heal the sick and ease the pain and suffering of your fellow humanity.
The one leads to fool's gold, remaining lead;
whilst the other is the true golden self already enlivened!
The fictional, but very true to life example of the story of Dr. Steven Strange springs to mind.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 03:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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Well said, Sonofthestar!
Quote: › nlwrykyy asked:
Are you a thelemite because you want the freedom to wreak havoc and act in obscene ways, to leave no excuses for lude behaviour, to hurt others and then blame them for their own weaknesses? It's absolutely disgusting to see the amount of barbarism that people are willing to go to in the name of Thelema, which is Do as thou wilt, but I believe Aleister Crowley thinks that his most successful students will have good wills in the first place.
With a big healthy dose of "In My Not So F*@#ing Humble Opinion" I offer the following:
The Law of Thelema is not 'Do as thou wilt,' it is "Do what thou wilt". A subtle difference, but to me, all the difference in the world.
I know very few Thelemites who "wreak havoc" for havoc's sake. You perhaps mistake Thelemites for Chaotes? Certainly our younger bretheren will 'pull the beards' of those that they percieve 'Establishment Suits,' it is ever the game of the rebellious youth, but our older and/or wiser bretheren will 'choose their garment as they will' and infiltrate, divide, and conquer from within.
Acting "in obscene ways" and "lude behavior" could cover just about any degree of so-called excess. The Taliban hurl those accusations against womyn in Afghanistan who refuse to wear a Burka in a public market. The Baptists hurl those accusations against womyn in Texas who refuse to wear a Bikini-top at a public beach. And those are just ordinary citizens. A Scarlet Woman is *supposed* to be 'loud and adulturous.' She is *supposed* to be 'shameless before all men.' I defend, as a Knight of Thelema, their Gods-given RIGHT to do their Will in this and in all other matters, as it is also their right to sheild themselves from the eyes of the profane in barbarous countries. I recall something too about despising "all chaste women." As long as it doesn't scare the horses or block traffic, I don't think the carnal behavior of others (as long as they are consenting adults) is much of my business unless it shows itself worthy of my applause.
Only an idiot who has never read "Duty" and fails to comprehend such Holy Books as Liber Librae would think that theft or robbery were in and of themselves justified actions under the Law of Thelema. "Man has the right to kill those who would thwart these rights" according to Liber Oz. Likewise, Mankind as a Society has the right to take the freedom of those who would take the freedom of others through violence, threat, cohersion, or theft, including the freedom to own property and enjoy the fruits of one's labor, as well as the investment of one's fruits for further profit or gain. Those who thwart the rights of man under Liber Oz make abrograte their own claim to their rights under that worthy document.
One's True Will not significant? Ridiculous!
If it is one's True Will to be, for example, the best Mother or Father and example for one's children that one can be, how can that be insignificant to one's spouse and one's children? I honor my Brothers and Sisters who are such worthy parents, and who sacrifice and scrimp and save in order to sire responsible, productive citizens, and hopefully the leaders of tomorrow.
If it's one's True Will to die happy as Piano Player in a Texas Whorehouse, what does it matter that they will probably never play Carnegie Hall? I honor my Brothers and Sisters who hear the Terpsichorian Muse, and who play the songs as they Will, when, where, and with whom they Will and pray that if they sing their songs, they do so in key.
One's True Will may not be significant enough to get one in the Headlines, but one may still manage to be the advisor, mouthpiece, or aide-de-camp to those who are. I honor my Brothers and Sisters who practice Law, or serve as Public Officials and/or Government Civil Servants and/or Law Enforcement Officers.
One's True Will may not make one Commander-In-Chief of an Army, but one may still lead my troops into battle, if not as a General, then perhaps as a Lieutenant, or Sergeant, and I honor my Brothers and Sisters who serve in the Armed Forces.
"Every Man and Woman is a Star." There is no such thing as an 'insiginificant True Will.' Each of us may rise to be a Star in the Company of Stars, if we will only cast off the shackles of our society-imposed self-slavery. With this claim of Freedom comes a burden of responsibility and discipline that no prudent or wise WoMan fails to see. This responsibility of discipline is implicit in the statement "Love is the Law, Love under Will" in that the Law of Love is reined by the bit and bridle of Will and the Discipline of the Magician as described in The Book of Balance, Liber Librae. |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 06:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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| Some good points, but again "dressed" in the dreaded language of the old aeon mentality. There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 08:27 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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Flagsofscarlet wrote: › There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards.
I agree, *when* this new aeon finally *does* shift up a gear, but I fear we'll be dealing with 'old aeon constructs' for the rest of *my* lifetime, and probably yours as well. And even then, most will still choose to be slaves, abeit, perhaps, to different masters. Few, I fear, initially, will actually be reaching for the Stars. Most will be content to watch the HD Digital Wide-Screen 5.1 Surround-Sound Telecast of the blast-off. Bread & Circuses, baby. Give it to 'em, and Slaves will STILL serve. |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 02, 2008 - 09:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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| Sooo right! Listen baby, I never thought it was going to change in my lifetime(maybe several), we just look towards the optimism of Thelema, so we are travelling in close orbits on this. Crowley was a genius, the book of the Law was "fed" through his mindset, those watching the HD digital 5.1 surround Telecast will be the ancestors, but there was?is maybe more: there will come a time, when the slaves will be no more, that's when Every Man and Women is a Star, of course they already are,(like you). Do what thou wilt: the age of pre-determined cultural conditioning ends, humans don't dictate behaviour or self to others based on difference. there will still be differences, but only in the sense of projection/reflection, interference of another's Will, will warrent defence. Regards. |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 10:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Flagsofscarlet wrote: There will be no leaders once this sickness society/aeon is "dead in the ground", each individual will be hir own Leader, there will be no organised religions/oto's/A.A's etc, no armies/wars, the squabbling of old aeon "adult" children". No patronising attitudes towards the young, (Horus is a child God), no turning Thelema into another religion, based on old aeon constructs ("brothers, sisters" etc), and symbolic language will be understood to have deeper meaning, than the lazy minded attitude of grasping for the nearest so-called literal "truth". Thelema is the new EVOLVED state of MIND beyond the last 2000 years of deluded barbarism, "Every Man and Women is a Star", and when this new aeon shifts up a gear, Every Man and Woman WILL be reaching for the Stars. Regards.
Walterfive wrote: I agree, *when* this new aeon finally *does* shift up a gear, but I fear we'll be dealing with 'old aeon constructs' for the rest of *my* lifetime, and probably yours as well. And even then, most will still choose to be slaves, abeit, perhaps, to different masters. Few, I fear, initially, will actually be reaching for the Stars.
Woe! Woe! Woe! I had some interesting thoughts while reading these comments...
Ultimately these comments can be classified as mere fantasies and projections of a perspective bias. It is a result of the fraility of the human condition, a limitation in the 'range' of consciousness. However, the truth of the matter could be much more complex than these idealistic 'castles in the sky' (mentioned above).
What I am trying to suggest here, is that nobody 'really' knows where the evolution of consciousness will take us. Just because a few people have devised a 'plan', does not necessarily mean that there will be an improvement collectively within the human experience. It is not a question of raising antinomian sentiments here, but the evolution of consciousness could very well turn out to follow a very opposite process i.e. war, oppression, destruction etc. 
I think it is always healthy (for the evolution of consciousness that is, regardless of what magickal system one chooses to work with) that our views should emerge from multi-faceted perspectives. Why?, for is it not Crowley who mentions that this realm (below the abyss) is full of 'contradiction'? In this sense, and by the very nature of 'contradiction', some 'very interesting times' could manifest from such an evolved state of being. The term 'contradiction' is poignant, as the methods used by an evolved being could very well become 'draconian' in its application to proceed with the evolutionary process. So, in this respect, the very opposite could very well occur for humanity at large i.e. a condition, where the evolved state of being is 'beyond' the whimsical imaginings of a hopeful (mankinds projection) prophecy that relies upon some revelatory doctrine.
Best Wishes
Charles |
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 01:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 329
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I have always seen it as, if one is doing their Will, there is no need to 'trample' upon the weak.
I liken being one with Hadit as being a train. When doing your Will, you are speeding down the track like said locomotive. Whether out of ignorance, lust, or pride; if a man (or woman) attempted to stand on the track and stop you, they would be trampled. Not due to a desire to harm them, simply that the momentum behind your action is so great and their resistance so feeble that they are washed away in the tide, drowned, and revived. |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 02:50 PM
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Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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| I was trying to make a point about the way the book of the Law is percieved and understood by a large majority of Thelemites ( especially in America). The evolution of consciousness has always involved war, oppression, destruction with human beings, take a look at the history books, and have a good look around the world! Any of these comments can be classified as mere fantasies and projections of a perspective bias, and they usually are. Nobody has devised a 'plan', another mystical/magickal book is being interpreted in many different ways. Contradiction is unity above the abyss, but not below. Crowley didn't believe(judging from his writings) that humans would evolve into (what is currently understood to mean) a "utopian" society. I agree with the point magispiegel made, "nobody "really" knows where the evolution of consciousness will take us", but I think the book of the Law indicates when it might start! Humans haven't progressed that much, and if you don't agree, watch as the petrol runs out at the pumps, the empty shelves in the supermarkets, and you'll see very little in the way of "evolution of the human consciousness." And to imagine a future that is not based on the production/consumption formula is hardly a 'castle in the sky' fantasy. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 02:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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Charles, making a calculated guess based upon past data is hardly "mere fantasy." It is "The Method of Science." One can certainly chart the Aeon of Osiris/Age of Pisces from the point of the birth of the Teacher of Righteousness, the rebuilding of the Temple of Solomon, track the Essene/Therapeutae current in Simon Magus and Yeheshua of Nazareth, the destruction of the 2nd Temple, see the development of the Gnostic mushroom cult, the rise of Paulian Xianity to the Official Religion of Rome. From this I deduce that it took the Aeonic Christos about 450 years to get the 12th House of the Zodiac in order, and based upon that, and where we've come from and gotten to in the 1st century of the New Aeon, I postulate that it will take To Mega Therion, Babalon and Belarion *at least* another 100 years or more.
Certainly Flagsofscarlet and I are not the only Thelemites to come to these or similar conclusions. And as you can see, I'm not pulling numbers out of a hat. I've given this a great deal of thought.
If you're really beyond the so-called 'whimsical imaginings of a hopeful prophecy that relies on some revelatory doctorine' one might wonder why you're here in this topic at all, other than to troll? Many who have achieved at least K&C of the HGA, if not Gnosis, find such supposition of fantasy tiresome and insulting. I'll quote Lon Duquette on this-- 'it's true that the world is no bigger than the inside of your head, but most people have no idea how big that actually is!' The creation of one's reality-tunnel is hardly "whimsical imaginings," it's damned hard work! |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 03:11 PM
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Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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| Hear!hear! Walterfive, you put it much better than me, and thanks for mentioning one of my favourite Thelemic writers! regards. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 03:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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As I've mentioned elsewhere, Lon's a personal friend of mine and one of the biggest reasons I've never tried to write a book-- he does it much better than me, and makes most of the points that I would have wanted to on the subjects he addresses.
We don't agree on everything (such as his claim that there was no historical Solomon), but we have a grand time doing it. I have the greatest of respect for both the Archbishop and his charming wife & Priestess. Genuine and nice folks, not an ounce of pretence between the two of them. Meet them if ever you get the opportunity.
Lon is of the opinion that all the Goetic Daemons are merely aspects of one's subconcious mind, and that in contacting these Daemons through Goetic magick, one actually accesses these aspects. I'm rather of the same opionion about the HGA, in that it is the Super-Ego of Freud, but I'm a bit more mystic about it than that-- Freud's Super-Ego is only a manifestation in this lifetime and this human conciousness of a larger conciousness that spans the total of our incarnations-- it's almost as if the HGA is the dreamer, and we are the dreams... |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 09:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Thanks Walterfive and Flagsofscarlet for your comments.
Yes, these ideas I mentioned in my previous post are quite bizarre if not provocative. I even surprised myself when writing them this morning! Excuse me. It has been a strange morning. One of my patients who is a medium said that she saw a very large golden Horus in my auric field, shining behind me. I was shocked, as it has been a very long time since I have worked with such godforms. She mentioned that Horus was communicating through me a 'method of science', and this teaching is of a different nature to the contact I made 12 years ago.
Interesting comments though.
My very best wishes
Charles
P.S. Funny that. I also read about the Goetic Demons being subconscious aspects of the mind in a book written before Lon Milo was born...  |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 04:08 AM
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| Charles wrote: "P.S. Funny that. I also read about Goetic Demons being subconscious aspects of the mind in a book written before Lon Milo was born..." And your point being... |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 09:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
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Flagofscarlet,
Personally, I do not rate his books. Like water off a ducks arse. Even as a teenager I was frustrated with the content. But hey! at the age of 11, when you are bought up with books by Blavatsky, Besant, Crowley, Leadbeater and Levi on the family bookshelf, what does one expect?
To be honest, I have not read any of his material since 1995, hence I cannot comment on his later work.
Keep up THE GREAT WORK.
Charles |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 10:45 AM
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Posts: 21
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| Charles I had realised that, I just wanted you to write it! Blavastsky? Leadbeater? Besant? (ugh!), only the other two writers on your family bookshelf were worth it! The slaves shall serve (their ego-as usual!). Regards. |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 10:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
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Is a matter of taste  |
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Flagsofscarlet |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 11:08 AM
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| Exactly my point. Regards. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 10, 2008 - 09:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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magispiegel wrote: › But hey! at the age of 11, when you are bought up with books by Blavatsky, Besant, Crowley, Leadbeater and Levi on the family bookshelf, what does one expect?
Besant? Leadbeater? Since age 11? No wonder you come acroos as so pompous and boring! Put a little R.A.W. into yer life, and a little anhalonium into your ovaltine, brother! It'll turn your head around!
It's more than a matter of taste, and Uncle Al points the truth of it. Neither Besant or Leadbeater deserved to stand in Blavatsky's shadow, let alone edit her words, disembowl her works, and assume the reins of her Great Work. We won't even *mention* their promotion of the Krishnamurti.
Leadbeater can't even get his Chakras right. |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 11, 2008 - 08:31 AM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
Posts: 794
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Walterfive wrote: › No wonder you come acroos as so pompous and boring!
I'm sorry you're making personal remarks, Walter; there's rarely any need.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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Walterfive |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Doing as thou wilt...
Posted: Jul 11, 2008 - 12:57 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 211
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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| Oops, my bad. Sorry 'bout that Magusspiegel. One forgets one's not on Usenet or Yahoo Groups any more. |
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