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andy_s |
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Post subject: The Cult Of The Ku
 Posted: Jun 05, 2008 - 09:39 PM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2007
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Hi,
As part of my english heretic project, i have an occasional blog. The latest article will hopefully be of interest to fellow Grantians....
extract:
"I was dismayed to read in Dave Evans’ recent book “The History Of British Magick After Crowley” a section in which he doubted the sources of Kenneth Grant’s fascinating discoveries of a form of Oriental black magick known as Ku. The gist of Evans’ argument was that he had contacted the University of Pennsylvania (from where Grant stated the Journal was published) and that they had never heard of the journal that Grant mentions in Hecate’s Fountain . So I decided to do a search myself. The journal and article is referenced at the back of a number of Grant’s books – as attributed to two authors: Shyrock and Feng. After a small amount of ‘googling’, I am delighted to say the article not only exists, but that the secretary of the American Oriental Society was kind enough to furnish me with a pdf of the article. Rather than freely disseminate the pdf, which would be doing a disservice to the AOS, I would suggest anybody with a real interest in obtaining a copy can email me and I'll provide details on how to obtain the journal article.
However, in this article, I’ll give a rough overview of the paper, which I am pleased to say has been very much honoured by Grant in Hecate’s Fountain."
To Read More...
http://englishheretic.blogspot.com/2008 ... of-ku.html
Regards
Andy |
Last edited by andy_s on Jun 05, 2008 - 10:57 PM; edited 1 time in total
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: RE: The Cult Of The Ku
Posted: Jun 05, 2008 - 10:32 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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Andy,
Many thanks for this. I'm very interested in having a copy of the article, and will contact you by PM with a view to taking up your offer. In the meantime, thanks from me and no doubt others for taking the trouble to track this down.
For anybody reading this who wishes to conduct a Google search, a small correction: the author name is Shryock, not Shylock.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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andy_s |
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Post subject: sorry yes typo
Posted: Jun 05, 2008 - 10:56 PM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2007
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ah sorry yes, typo in the introduction... full title in the rest of the blog is correct!
“The Black Magic in China Known as ku”. It was written by H.Y Feng and J.K Shyrock and appeared in the Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 55, No. 1 (Mar., 1935),pp. 1-30. |
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przm28 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 06, 2008 - 05:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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thanks.
gona go grab hecates fountain for good ol' contemplating before my nightside nap. |
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Paolo_sammut |
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Posted: Jun 06, 2008 - 02:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 03, 2005
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Location: London
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Hi Andy
Thank you for this and also for making us aware of your fascinating blog. I too was quite dismayed at the inaccuracies regarding Kenneth Grant in Dave Evan's book and I think that it is important that your research has backed up the accuracy of Kenneth Grants research showing that he is drawing on genuine traditions which have a historical authenticity.
I'll PM you regarding my asking for a copy of the article from the AOS (nice acronym there  )
Thanks again
Paolo |
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www.spectrallight.com
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TauMelchizedek |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 06, 2008 - 04:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 03, 2006
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Andy,
excellent find indeed!
David |
_________________
"The blood-glow is an uninterrupted, profoundly disturbing access of awe. A dark atmosphere throbs and ferments within hidden hovels. Wild, raucous cries blend with the crashing of storms. Being speaks in a demonic voice out of the murky twilight; but the glowing crimson of a winter evening is encircling the world, and a blazing fire directs its light upon the pursuing powers. The flame and smoke of the hearth fire shudder in the holy night before the savage force of the winds."
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oneiros |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 06, 2008 - 04:16 PM
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Joined: Nov 23, 2005
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This is good news - well done!
But don't you think the connection made by Grant between Spare and the Ku Cult in Nightside of Eden is rather spurious, rather along the lines of "Witch Paterson" ?
I am intrigued by Grant's account primarily because in one line he claims the Ku Cult as a secret society to which no European had ever gained access - oh yes, tres spooky, carry on sir, please! Then he tells us that Spare gained admittance to this supposed ritual. Can these two facts co-exist? - on the consensual plane of temporality, I mean of course, where Thomas Burke and Austin Spare were ordinarily known to reside during that period.
Is there, indeed, any evidence that he even knew Thomas Burke at all? Certainly the dancing girl in diaphanous robes routine sounds like a rejected scene from (or precursor to) the NIL-Hecate's Fountain script. The half-asleep orientals themselves would appear to have leaked through from Sax Rohmer's depictions of Limehouse opium dens, which we know have borne a significant impress on KG's writing.
Is there anything in the Ku article itself that casts light on Grant's account?
Happy weekend
o |
_________________
Q: And Thelemites?
A: And Thelemites.
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 06, 2008 - 09:43 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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oneiros wrote: › I am intrigued by Grant's account primarily because in one line he claims the Ku Cult as a secret society to which no European had ever gained access [ . . .] Then he tells us that Spare gained admittance to this supposed ritual. Can these two facts co-exist? - on the consensual plane of temporality, I mean of course . . .
I would have thought it fairly obvious that the answer is 'no, these two facts do not co-exist'. If Spare gained admittance, then Grant has clearly slipped up in stating that no European has gained admittance. I would have expected whoever the editor was at Muller to have spotted this inconsistency and sought clarification; that's what editors are for, after all.
As for verification, I've always had the impression that Grant relays what he was told by Spare. Were Grant an academic, then doubtless he would seek independent verification. However, he's never to my knowledge had academic pretensions.
Having only glanced over the article so far, I'm not in a position to say whether or not it supports Grant's interpretation. You can always PM the originator of this thread, learn how to locate a copy, and make your own judgement rather than relying on my opinion.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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amadan-De |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 11:50 AM
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I have this article (anyone with JSTOR access can too) and am wondering why you characterise the Chinese practice of ku as a 'Cult'. Having skimmed it there does not seem to be any organised (even loosely) cult aspects around it as a whole, rather the term describes a practice akin to hexing. This could be carried out by a cult but does not have to be.
I would also be interested to know if there has been any further work on the subject in the last 53 years. Just because something is in an old journal (or a recent book, vide your issue with Evans...*) does not mean it is correct. Even Grant (praise be upon him) can only be as good as his sources when it comes to quoting information (leaving aside direct inspiration).
A quick google throws up "A History of Medicine" by Plinio Prioreschi, 1996, Horatio Press which discusses ku on pages 119-121 but seems to use this article and earlier work by De Groot as primary sources (De Groot is mentioned negatively by Feng and Shyrock in their footnote 13 along with some other earlier studies).
Relevant pages from "A History of Medicine" can be seen here http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MJUM ... #PPA119,M1
There do seem to be some other more recent books cited by Prioreschi which might also be worth pursuing, though they are perhaps also considering ku as a form of 'negative medicine'. Prioreschi mentions the 'evil eye' as a non-Chinese parallel.
Amusingly (but no time to examine right now) an advanced google for 'Cult of Ku' throws up results that indicate cults of Ku amongst the Ham in Nigeria (secret male cult) and in Hawaii (Cook encountered them) and one vague reference to folk deities in Kerala. All the Chinese references to the 'Cult of Ku' seem to derive from Grant...
*The 'University of Pennsylvania' confusion seems to have arisen as that is where the two researchers were based (see title page) and Grant has apparently assumed that the journal must have therefore come from there. Which if nothing else demonstrates a refreshing distance from the habits of academic publication  |
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bazelek |
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Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 12:52 PM
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Am tempted to throw another snake in the pot...
Years ago I unearthed a 1931 letter from Thomas Burke to Crowley which I forwarded to KG due to his interest in 'The Cult of the Ku.' His reply to me dated 12 Sept 96 as follows:
"Thank you for enclosing the photostat of Thomas Burke's letter. Crowley was in Berlin in 1931. There is no diary entry of acknowledgement during the period in question; it may be alluded to in the later diaries. Apart from this, I am particularly pleased with the item as it substantiates my remarks in 'Cults of the Shadow', which I based on what Zos told me of his friendship with T.B."
bazelek |
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andy_s |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 03:17 PM
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amadan-De wrote: › I have this article (anyone with JSTOR access can too) and am wondering why you characterise the Chinese practice of ku as a 'Cult'. Having skimmed it there does not seem to be any organised (even loosely) cult aspects around it as a whole, rather the term describes a practice akin to hexing. This could be carried out by a cult but does not have to be.
hi yes, actually since quite a few have pm'd here's the link to obtaining the article...
http://www.jstor.org/pss/594297
wasn't meaning to be exclusive, just didn't want to do a disservice to the kind person at the AOS who sent me the pdf.
I don't think i did summarise it as a Cult... that was merely the chapter in Hecate's Fountain... I think i said in my commentary
Whether the ‘cult’ of the Ku is merely the romantic interpretation of a shamanic, rustic, non-organised religion (cf. witchcraft) or in fact a definite cabal later developed from these practices, the article gives no evidence
'cult' in single quotes is a reference to Grant's use. I think KG uses cult/society/organization in a very lovecraftian sense! For example does anyone know anything about the secret society of the zotzil?! I'd love to know about that....
however there are some intriguing aspects... the written instruction book for keeping ku...
if one doesn't exist that's not to say one couldn't create a cult around this
As i said in the conclusion, I'd quite like to apply Grave's analeptic method around this article to devise an "imaginary" grimoire, rituals... In actual fact i am seriously considering this for a future English Heretic project.
I am a bit wary of google false trail specially on a word such as Ku, my feeling is that it could send me down blind alleys.
A few years back i did wonder whether there was a relationship b'd Ku and Koro Syndrome. Koro syndrome to quote wiki is:
Penis panics in southeast Asia have become known under the term "Koro" (which means "head of the turtle" in Malay). Some anthropologists have referred to Koro as a culture-bound syndrome, but it is phenomenologically related, if not identical, to penis panics in various cultures. Koro most commonly describes the extreme fear that the penis is retracting into the body, including the idea that such retraction will bring about death. It can also refer to beliefs of "genital theft" or some kind of sorcery which has resulted in the loss of the penis. Sometimes the testicles are also believed to be affected.
As i remember from psychiatric journals i read there was the fear that ghosts in the forms of foxes could steal your genitals.
but i don't think there IS any relationship!!
It might be worth exploring the Sax Rohmer connection because of the poison aspects? |
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andy_s |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 03:37 PM
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amadan-De wrote: ›
Just because something is in an old journal (or a recent book, vide your issue with Evans...*) does not mean it is correct. Even Grant (praise be upon him) can only be as good as his sources when it comes to quoting information (leaving aside direct inspiration).
Of course that's true too, the intention was find out whether the article existed... rather than debate its veracity. But you would agree it mainly deals with anecdotal evidence from various 'historical' sources ... so i am not sure where correctness comes into the debate in the original article.... might be being naive here as i am neither a trained historian or anthropologist... merely slacker with an interest in Grant There's some theorizing about the etymology and relation to iching, which i must admit i take at face value, if no other reason than there is a poetic truth to their rationale.
anyhow thanks for the comments you are right and of course i'd love to know if more recent research has been done
cheers
andy |
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BlueKephra |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 06:27 PM
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MRMIDIAN |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 08:06 PM
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Greetings
Interesting thread. Scanning my shelves for a more contemporary account of ku magic, I've found two titles:
CHINESE BLACK MAGIC: AN EXPOSE by Dr. Ong Hean-Tatt
2 short chapters on Ku, the five poisonous Ku animals etc. Mention is made that the term ku also applies to "the use of philter-maggots by women to excite the lusts of men to debauchery"
There is also brief mention of Ku in:
THE CATALPA BOW: A STUDY OF SHAMANISTIC PREACTISES IN JAPAN By Carmen Blacker
Look forward to reading the article myself.
Best. Jonathan. |
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andy_s |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 08:58 PM
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Cool Jonathan,
thanks for these references...
interestingly just did a search on that book you mention and came across
this site...
http://www.dangerofchi.org/
which has this section... and provides further clues to the temporal significance... 5th day of the 5th month that i was trying to find the meaning of..
Also ku magic (European equivalent of the witches cauldron) is notorious in China, whereby a poisonous drink would be served to the victim causing a variety of different affects from love spells or acquiring the wealth of the intended victim ore even destroying their live stock or crops etc. Ku magic has many types, one of the most popular is by placing a variety of different insects and or reptiles (the most deadly being the golden caterpillar) in a jar for a certain period often on the 5th day of the 5th moon, after which only one insect/reptile will prevail within the jar the rest having being devoured, and then unleashing this on the intended victim, who’s five viscera would rot away. It is also said the insects or reptiles could transform into other animals e.g. dogs or pig to do their work. Just as the art of using ku magic for malevolent purposes exists, the method of nullifying its affects of demoniacal diseases has also developed e.g. by using a gold pin to pierce the ku, using jan ho (ginger plant), wearing of musk, leek juice mixed with spirits and a drink prepared from minced stalks of orange trees.
The 5th day of the 5th moon is by no coincidence the Chinese Dragon Boat Festival (which is strongly connected to ancient rites of human sacrifice) and symbolically the period of summer solstice. Historically this time is often been associated with the forces of evil as it signifies the ascendancy of darkness and it is likely that its inception into Chinese mainstream culture has foreign roots which migrated to China during ancient times. It is also the day when according to Chinese folklore that various deities or saints are invoked to quell demons e.g. Taoist Pope Chang Ta Lin riding out on he’s Tiger and Chung Kuei, and the day when the Pakua is placed on roof tops.
hmm summer solstice, only a couple of weeks away... clearly the stars are aligning themselves as we speak ; 
andy |
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andy_s |
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Post subject: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 09:08 PM
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more on this... according to wiki!
The Duanwu Festival occurs on the fifth day of the fifth month of the Chinese calendar, giving rise to the alternative name of Double Fifth [3]. In 2008, this falls on 8 June.
even more synchronicity... tomorrow!
Andy |
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amadan-De |
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Post subject: RE: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 07, 2008 - 09:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Posts: 217
Location: A House in the Borderlands
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Excellent stuff - I have been wanting to read The Catalpa Bow for a bit.
Very much like the idea that the Summer Solstice might be associated with the ascendancy of darkness. It might seem counter-intuitive but after Mid-Summer the nights are indeed 'drawing in' even if it is not too noticable (to the naked eye) at first.
Ehh - how bizarre indeed, you've just provided instructions on how to practice ku magic, the day before you would do it... |
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achad |
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Post subject: RE: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 08, 2008 - 11:15 AM
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thanks to Michael Staley for drawing my attention to this thread; an interesting-looking article which i will try to get hold of myself; but i am being unfairly criticised for saying that the reference was wrong; which it actually was, the Journal of the Uni of Pennsylvania which Mr Grant cited does not hold this article (as the journal cited does not exist), instead it now seems that one or more of the authors of the article were once employed by the University, which is an entirely different area, and not something that i coul dhave been expected to research .... and so the points i made at the time were, IMHO correct, and remain so. Another example of people not reading what i have written carefully enough, i fear
dave e |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject: RE: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 08, 2008 - 08:54 PM
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Dear Dave,
Thank you for your posting to this thread. I think that many of us, myself included, wondered if you weren't implying that Grant was fabricating the reference. I'm glad you have made it clear that such was not the case.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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achad |
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Post subject: RE: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 08, 2008 - 09:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 16, 2003
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hi Michael, at the time of writing, and in context of the research, i was making the point that Mr G's sources are often hard to find for the lay person, and that they are sometimes not of this earth (such as anything to do with Phineas Black) and i felt it was quite unusual for him to give an academic journal as a reference, and that this reference turned out to be false was, i felt, indicative of the liminal area Mr G tends to occupy, between fact and imaginal realms. I'm actually very, very pleased to have this source cleared up (regardless of whether the contents actually support what he was writing about), as, if anyone who's not read my book (or not had a conversation with me about him) might not be aware, i hope i make it clear that despite a few factual problems with Grant's work as an academic, speaking as an occultist i hold Mr Grant in the highest respect for all he has done, and while some grim financial trouble a few years back meant i had to sell my library, including the three Typhonian trilogies, which had some signed editions and Images & Oracles etc, i am delighted to see OCTime coming back into print, and something that will have to be pried from my cold dead fingers is the personal letter i got from Mr G during my researches, which i treasure
dave e |
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James |
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Post subject: RE: 5th day of 5 month!
Posted: Jun 10, 2008 - 09:34 PM
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Location: London
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On this 'Ku' material, although it didn't strike me when I first read it in KG's work in fact there are strong alchemical overtones in this 'folk magic'. Looking at western treatises like Book of Lambspring the theme of wild animals, in this case a wolf and a dog fighting to the death and a venomous dragon who devours himself appear. The wolf and dog kill each other and produce a terrible poison which turns out to be the Great Medicine. The same with the dragon's venom.
Even the old Merlin legend of the red & white dragon fighting underneath Vortigern's castle foundations preventing them standing have a similar overtone.
Is this suggestive of a deeper significance to this symbolism apart from the literal interpretation of ku magic? |
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