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0beron |
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Post subject: Cthulhu Practice
 Posted: Mar 29, 2008 - 11:26 PM
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Joined: Oct 26, 2007
Posts: 10
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93, all
I should say off the bat that I've never actually done what could be considered a Cthulhu working.
However, I am a big Lovecraft fan, and I'm very curious to hear about people's experiences actually using the system.
So to get this thread moving, I'll begin with a few stimulating questions:
(1) Why do a Cthulhu working?
(2) How does it differ from other systems?
(3) What do you experience and what do you get from it?
I know that last question may be contentious, as it assumes a certain "lust of result," but I know of no other way to express it.
Looking forward to hearing what you all have to say.
Yours,
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Kevin_Ikari |
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Post subject: RE: Cthulhu Practice
Posted: Mar 30, 2008 - 12:37 AM
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Joined: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 31
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I'm starting to sound like a broken record in my posts but you should go to this website before you start up a discussion on this subject.
http://www.philhine.org.uk/index.html
Read the essays there, they're full of pertinent information and experiences on what you're asking. |
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For I am divided for love's sake, for the chance of union.
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N.O.X |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 30, 2008 - 02:51 AM
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93
I have to say that I have never done a working that included Cthulhu, but I have done a couple with Dagon. These had interesting results, to say the least. There was a Dream Working that I did where Nyarlathotep and Shub-Niggurath showed up. I'm not so sure that lashtal is the best place for this topic. I seem to remember starting one at some point that got locked rather quickly. Maybe www.spectrallight.com or www.cultofcthulhu.net would be a better place.
93 93/93 |
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amadan-De |
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Post subject:
Posted: Mar 31, 2008 - 09:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 13, 2006
Posts: 218
Location: A House in the Borderlands
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As a long time Lovecraft fan and working from the evidence in his works the answers might be:
1)A desire to be driven mad or found dead or not found at all.
2)Great Old Ones...
3)See 1)
(Sorry, it's been a long day)  |
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annolumina |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 01, 2008 - 11:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 44
Location: glasgow
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| Although Randolph Carter didn't go mad, did he? He went back in time into his own childhood and lived his life over again. ( But did he live it differently, or did he put himself in a perpetual loop? These questions vex me for they are profound and I have no girlfriend... ) |
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sethur666 |
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Post subject: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 01, 2008 - 01:01 PM
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93
You would be well advised to access the online and printed works of Dr Justin Woodman. He did his PhD thesis on the results of his participant observation of a group of Chaos magicians carrying out Lovecraftian work for a number of years. In the thesis the group is called the Haunters of the Dark, but was actually the Whisperers in Darkness. Justin still lectures and has written for the Academic Journal for the Study of Magic, somewhere online is an audio lecture as well.
By a sheer coincidence Justin did his PhD, and now teaches, at Goldsmiths College, where Pete Carroll and Charles Brewster, founders of the IOT along with Ray Sherwin, did their PhDs.
There is also an extract from a public performance by the WIDs recorded for a student project and available, somewhere, from Strange Attractor. ending with the voice of Mark Pilkington saying "there will now be a short break while we wipe the blood off the floor".
93 93/93
Steve W |
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kizaen |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 02, 2008 - 04:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 19, 2006
Posts: 13
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93!
I have been interested in the Necronomicon and I have done a couple of rituals based on it. After one of those rituals I dreamt of an entity, I assume the one I invoked, shaped as a man pressing my chest, and woke up finding it hard to breath. The task however was fulfilled just fine. But this is not my point.
(1) Why do a Cthulhu working?
I have the impression, from what I get from Michael Bertiaux and Kenneth Grant, that there is much to be learned from direct contact with such energies about existence. The kind of experience-learn
This is what Grant says in Outer Gateways (let me know if I am misquotting, I get this from my own note)
"The invoked forces - Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth, etc - are then understood, not as malignant or destructive entities but as the dynamic energies of consciousness, the functions of which are to blast away the delusion of separate existence."
So the idea of dealing with these energies that "are not dead but dreaming" is to bring back that which is left out (one could also think of them as Qlipphot though I know Bertiaux makes a distinction). By denying their reality, the ego functions in the way that it does in each culture, like the Tonal of Carlos Castaneda. The Self is thus hidden in duality. As they are keys to showing the lie on which personality and volition is based they appear as the darkest forces of the universe.
This does not mean than if you attempt some working to meet Cthulhu in dreams (which might be a good approach), it wont disfigure your mind, or just take your energy by way of a terrifying sexual experience, which the Voudoun Gnostic Workbook describes as being part of their system. Our own mind s reaction to that which is buried so deep might be very violent and chaotic.
93/93
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sethur666 |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 02, 2008 - 09:02 AM
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Posts: 290
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Ah, THAT Necronomicon - which is, of course, a fake. Justin Woodman has collected Necronomicons and has about 12 entirely different ones, but face it, Lovecraft just made it up.
Steve W |
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fratersi |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 02, 2008 - 10:10 AM
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Joined: Oct 21, 2007
Posts: 30
Location: London, United Kingdom
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As for Fiction you are probably right.. As for it working magickaly thats another whole can of worms  |
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http://www.evocationmagic.com
The Forum Dedicated to Enochian and Magical Evocation
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kizaen |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 02, 2008 - 12:34 PM
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Joined: Mar 19, 2006
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93!
Yeah, as fake as Castaneda s Don Juan might be. I think those doubts are not enough reason to dismiss it entirely. Even if it is likely that the Necronomicon did not exist as such before
I believe Lovecraft discovered something
93/93 |
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LittleAlickGrewUp |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 02, 2008 - 11:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 29
Location: England.
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Quote: ›
Ah, THAT Necronomicon - which is, of course, a fake. Justin Woodman has collected Necronomicons and has about 12 entirely different ones, but face it, Lovecraft just made it up.
I believe it was A.C. who said:
Quote: ›
"Everything is false but there are degrees of falsity"
- from a magickal point of view whatever works for you is real.
93/93 |
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FraterUraeus |
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Post subject: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 - 04:28 AM
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Joined: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Knoxville, TN
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93, All!
As a Lovecraft fan myself, I must comment on this. For anyone who wants to continue believing that the Necronomicon, Cthulhu, etc. are in fact real in the sense that their reality stretches beyond the pages of a Lovecraft story, never ever read a book called 'Lovecraft At Last.' It is a collection of correspondences between the author of the book and Lovecraft in the late '30's. The author asks Lovecraft many important questions, one of which is the authenticity of the Necronomicon, which Lovecraft quickly, yet in some way sadly, tells the author that the book, its author, and its contents are purely fictional creations. Its nice to believe in fairy tales until you attempt to incorporate them into your reality, thats when things get dangerous and they start bringing out the straightjackets! Or...could that be...Cthulhu driving you to dwell in madness?!?! 
93,
Fra. U. |
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"Behold! the Kingdom of God is within you..." - Equinox III (I)
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 - 07:02 AM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 613
Location: Munick / Germany
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FraterUraeus wrote: › The author asks Lovecraft many important questions, one of which is the authenticity of the Necronomicon, which Lovecraft quickly, yet in some way sadly, tells the author that the book, its author, and its contents are purely fictional creations.
93!
Why should I believe what Lovecraft wrote to some author? As you should know from Applied Conspiracy Theory the denial of certain facts can be regarded as proof of authenticity of those facts. And it is the "quickly" in your account that makes it so suspicious...
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
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FraterUraeus |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 - 07:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Knoxville, TN
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the_real_simon_iff wrote: ›
93!
Why should I believe what Lovecraft wrote to some author? As you should know from Applied Conspiracy Theory the denial of certain facts can be regarded as proof of authenticity of those facts.
93,
What on earth would Lovecraft stand to gain by denying the Cthulhu Mythos' authenticity? Think about it. He wouldn't have let a drop of the story even leak out to his readers had he believed the myth (which he created) to be real/dangerous. How could he have learned about these things? Psychic connection? I don't buy it. Maybe I'm missing something here, but just because he was the forerunner in creating the Yog-Sothoth mythos doesn't make the mythos any more real. The man is noted to have been very lazy, chances are he never took part in any rituals. If my memory serves me well, he even dispells several systems of belief, including magick, in the above mentioned book. I take the man at his word; Lovecraft fiction = Lovecraft fiction. Anyone who wishes to disagree has a fanciful mind, which is a wonderful thing to have so long as a person doesn't Will it to falsely effect their reality.
93,
Fra. U. |
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"Behold! the Kingdom of God is within you..." - Equinox III (I)
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MadmanOfMalvern |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 - 07:31 PM
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Joined: May 19, 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Malvern Hills
Status: Offline
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Steve Wilson's post prompted me to mention that all 4 of Justin Woodman's fine lectures at Treadwells last year (on HPL, the Necronomicon and Cthulhu etc) can be downloaded for free at:
http://www.sffaudio.com/2007/05/four-hp ... dcast.html
He manages to pack a heck of a lot in to these talks!
Enjoy.
Neil  |
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Boris |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 03, 2008 - 10:37 PM
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Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 33
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FraterUraeus wrote: › 93, All!
As a Lovecraft fan myself, I must comment on this. For anyone who wants to continue believing that the Necronomicon, Cthulhu, etc. are in fact real in the sense that their reality stretches beyond the pages of a Lovecraft story, never ever read a book called 'Lovecraft At Last.' It is a collection of correspondences between the author of the book and Lovecraft in the late '30's. The author asks Lovecraft many important questions, one of which is the authenticity of the Necronomicon, which Lovecraft quickly, yet in some way sadly, tells the author that the book, its author, and its contents are purely fictional creations. Its nice to believe in fairy tales until you attempt to incorporate them into your reality, thats when things get dangerous and they start bringing out the straightjackets! Or...could that be...Cthulhu driving you to dwell in madness?!?!
93,
Fra. U.
The goetia is just as fake. Doesn`t mean it doesn`t work. |
_________________
I like to take I like to feel wanted.
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FraterUraeus |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 - 12:04 AM
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Joined: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Knoxville, TN
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Boris wrote: › The goetia is just as fake. Doesn`t mean it doesn`t work.
93,
Oh my! The only difference is the Goetia's calling forth of real spirits and the very real results that arise from doing this. The most one might get from a Cthulhu ritual is a head rush from getting too psyched up, and bragging rights for having actually performed the *cough* "ritual." Is it wrong to be partial to reality as opposed to fantasy? And let me say that I'm truly sorry, everyone. I don' t mean to sound so abrasive about this. I just wouldn't want anyone to (in my own pointless 2 cent opinion) waste their time with rituals created only to earn some author a quick buck from unsuspecting Lovecraftians.
93, All,
Fra. U. |
_________________
"Behold! the Kingdom of God is within you..." - Equinox III (I)
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Vlad_Kiosk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 - 10:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 24, 2007
Posts: 18
Location: North Lancashire, UK.
Status: Offline
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Regardless of traditions (Thelema, Wicca, heathenry, chaos magic, whatever) or general background, I find that the issue of the boundaries between reality and fiction can really split folk into antagonistic camps.
Personally I find that there is a hazy overlap within the realms of the imagination. What to do with that is quite a personal thing.
So, yes, for me, Lovecraft's stories are indeed stories, but not *just* stories. They draw on history and myth, and they have the potential to speak to parts of the psyche that other stories do not. Personally I have on occasion taken inspiration from the stories to craft magical rituals and gain results. Indeed, I know folk who work with the mythos and folk who work with the Goetia, and indeed with other established traditions, and the results seem to be on a par.
I guess one has to bear in mind that the Goetia has a long and complex history, as do many other grimoires. As I recall there was a whole slew of Faustbooks that grew out of the story of the good Dr.
That said, I do find that folk who take any of the published Necronomicons at face value have lost the plot a little! |
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Boris |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 - 11:12 AM
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Joined: Dec 08, 2007
Posts: 33
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FraterUraeus wrote: › Boris wrote: › The goetia is just as fake. Doesn`t mean it doesn`t work.
93,
Oh my! The only difference is the Goetia's calling forth of real spirits and the very real results that arise from doing this. The most one might get from a Cthulhu ritual is a head rush from getting too psyched up, and bragging rights for having actually performed the *cough* "ritual." Is it wrong to be partial to reality as opposed to fantasy? And let me say that I'm truly sorry, everyone. I don' t mean to sound so abrasive about this. I just wouldn't want anyone to (in my own pointless 2 cent opinion) waste their time with rituals created only to earn some author a quick buck from unsuspecting Lovecraftians.
93, All,
Fra. U.
I have a hard time seeing what makes the spirits of the goetia more real than the spirits of lovecrafts mythos. According to my experience and understanding the effect lies in the ritual and how it is performed, not in such a - frankly - ludicrous idea as the level of "reality" in the spirits one deals with.
Ofcourse if cthulu-workings simply doesn`t work as you claim they don`t then you have a point - I wouldn`t know since I`ve never performed one or cared about it, but I doubt from your tone that you have either. But dismissing a modern grimoire such as Simons Necronomicon on the basis that it wasn`t written by the mad arab Lovecraft wrote about is just as stupid as dismissing Goetia since it wasn`t really written by Solomon. |
_________________
I like to take I like to feel wanted.
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FraterUraeus |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 - 01:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 19, 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Knoxville, TN
Status: Offline
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Boris wrote: › I have a hard time seeing what makes the spirits of the goetia more real than the spirits of lovecrafts mythos. According to my experience and understanding the effect lies in the ritual and how it is performed, not in such a - frankly - ludicrous idea as the level of "reality" in the spirits one deals with.
93,
I don't mean they're 'more real,' I mean they don't exist outside of the books in which their names are written. I suppose they exist in the mind, also, yet even such information traces back to the books, which are themselves mere early 20th century fiction. Maybe the only difference between the Necronomicon and the Goetia are their placement in bookstores. Perhaps the Committee On Catagorizing Books knows something you don't, as every copy of the Necronomicon I've seen has ended up in the Horror-Fiction section instead of New Age, etc, etc.
Boris wrote: › Ofcourse if cthulu-workings simply doesn`t work as you claim they don`t then you have a point - I wouldn`t know since I`ve never performed one or cared about it, but I doubt from your tone that you have either. But dismissing a modern grimoire such as Simons Necronomicon on the basis that it wasn`t written by the mad arab Lovecraft wrote about is just as stupid as dismissing Goetia since it wasn`t really written by Solomon.
I don't think it's stupid to dismiss the Necronomicon, because I don't believe it to be modern 'grimoire.' It plays on creatures created by Lovecraft fiction, less than 50 years after their first appearences, thus the core of the book is fictional right off the bat. Even their creator would, and has, told you that, believe it or not.
Frankly, I don't see an end to this argument, because you seem to be as stubborn as myself, and the last thing I want on this forum is to be known as the asshole. Thus, and only after your expected reply to this comment, I am throwing in the towel on this particular topic. I understand that beliefs differ, I only hope anyone who's has kept up with us can gain something from this discussion.
93,
Fra. U. |
_________________
"Behold! the Kingdom of God is within you..." - Equinox III (I)
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Justin Woodman
Posted: Apr 04, 2008 - 01:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 613
Location: Munick / Germany
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FraterUraeus wrote: › Perhaps the Committee On Catagorizing Books knows something you don't, as every copy of the Necronomicon I've seen has ended up in the Horror-Fiction section instead of New Age, etc, etc.
93!
Just want to add that in Germany you will always find it in the new age/magic/occult section. Maybe this is because the publisher over here is specifically dealing with only those titles.
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
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kizaen |
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Post subject: If Cthulhu is asleep, stab him with a stick
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