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lashtal |
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Post subject: Marilyn Manson
 Posted: May 04, 2006 - 08:36 AM
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Site Admin
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Entertainer and rock star Marilyn Manson, who once stated that Crowley was one of his favourite authors. On his album Antichrist Superstar, the sentence "When you are suffering, know that I have betrayed you" supposedly rephrases a line from Liber AL vel Legis: "Begone! ye mocker; even though ye laugh in my honour ye shall laugh not long: then when you are sad know that I have forsaken you." The line from Disposable Teens "I never really hated a one true god but the god of the people I hated" is believed to be a rephrased version of the line from Confessions "I did not hate God or Christ, but merely the God and Christ of the people whom I hated." Also, in the song Misery Machine the chorus goes, 'We've gotta ride to the Abbey of Thelema.'
-- Wikipedia, accessed 4 May 2006 |
Last edited by lashtal on Jun 22, 2006 - 07:11 AM; edited 1 time in total
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 09:37 AM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2005
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Manson isn't a Thelemite, IMO, but does offer a "tip of the hat" to AC in some songs. He is a Satanist of the CoS stripe, and it is pretty obvious that LaVey ripped off, distorted and watered down a lot from AC to form his Church. LaVey made the usual mistake of someone who mistook "Do what thou wilt" to mean "Do what you want". The Temple of Set does take Crowley seriously, from what I have ascertained; LaVey never even acknowledged Crowley's influence because he wanted people to think the philosophy was his own creation.
I disagree with Paul's assertion in a related topic that Manson's antics were manufactured by his record label. I think his label just allowed him free rein and Manson took it from there. Manufactured or not, it was great fun when he played his first concert here in the "bloody bible belt" in my hometown and there was a big group of fundamentalist protestors outside the concert venue, I think some of the footage in MM's first concert video were shot here. Manson certainly got the Goth, neo-Goth and pseudo-Goth crowd out to a major venue instead of their usual clustering at self-created clubs.
I was in the restroom at this concert and a young man, apparently one of those self-styled Satanists, walked up to me and asked "Are you a Brother of the Book"? I thought for a second and replied, "Well, the Book of the Law". He answered "Ah yes, I have read it many times". There is a degree of admiration of Crowley in the Satanic community, but only superficially, based on the popular/yellow press "Wickedest Man in the World" sense.
Another CoS-inspired band that tips the hat towards the Beast is The Electric Hellfire Club. Some of their AC-related song titles are "Book of Lies", "Love is the Law" and "Whores of Babylon". I got to know the Rev. Thomas Thorn a bit as he was the friend-of-a-friend; he tried to convince me once backstage at a video shoot that Crowley had it all wrong and I should throw my lot in with LaVey. I took it under advisement, but declined 
I like MM's and EHC's music, good hard rock, better than all the crap I usually here coming out of major labels these days. The only good thing that might come out of it, like the popularity of Ozzy's song "Mr. Crowley", is that some fans might actually pick of some of AC's books and find out what it's really about.
nick |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 09:44 AM
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Site Admin
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Nick,
I expected better of you:
papanick wrote: › I disagree with Paul's assertion in a related topic that Manson's antics were manufactured by his record label.
You really must take care to ascribe quotes correctly: it was rabrazier's "assertion" that Marilyn Manson was "so obviously manufactored by his record company"; not mine.
http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-vi ... -728.phtml
I'm an admirer of Marilyn Manson's work -- which, to understand, you really do need to see in a live performance. |
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 04, 2006 - 10:07 PM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2005
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My sincere apologies. I should have gone back to the original posting to check my sources. Probably a good thing I'm not a reporter anymore :}
nick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 01:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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It was indeed me and not Paul who described Manson(sic) as a product of his record company.
The problem I have is that there are two Crowleys.
There is the Crowley of the gutter press, a fat, debauched old junkie whose works are of no importance;
and then there is Crowley as he really was, not a perfect human being by any means but then again not the stereotype of the press.
It often seems that because there is so little interest in Crowley of Thelema in the mainstream, that Thelemites will embrace any rubbish as long as it has Crowleys face on it.
If they are people with a genuine interest in Thelema such as Jimmy Page thats all well and good. However some of the people who use Crowley are follers of the old 'wickedest man in the world' nonsense and only use Crowley for shock value.
I think a little wisdom should be exercised before Thelemites start singing the praises of an individual or group just because they name drop Crowley.
Robert.
Ps I agree with the person who recommended Robert Fripp. Fripp with David Sylvian is even better.
I don't expect anyone to go along with my dislike of Maryloo Monsoon or what ever.
Horse for courses each to his own and so on. |
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 09:42 AM
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93, rabraizer.
I agree, just because a band makes references to Crowley is no reason to like them. I judge them on music first, and any references I relate to are just gravy. Fripp is a good example: I don't think there are any direct references in King Crimson's music to Thelemic themes, but the music itself in undeniably fueled by the Lord of Force & Fire.
Dang, now I want to listen to "Epitaph"....
"the wall on which the prophets wrote, is cracking at the seams"...
nick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 05, 2006 - 01:44 PM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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Fripp was into Thelema a long time ago about 1972 as I recall. Then he married Toyah Wilcox and got heavily into Gurdjieff. Several of his records have extracts from interviews with J.G . Bennet one of Gurdjieff's disciples.
His work with Sylvian is interesting because the lyrics are so heavily influenced by Advaitism the subject of Kenneth Grants last book. Anything that makes Grant easier to understand has got to be a good thing.
I agree with what was written about the church of satan they were really just a bunch of clowns, and La Vey was a good showman but a magician? Don't thing so.
Best Wishes Robert. |
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 02:37 AM
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93, Robert, Paul, et AL,
My memory is slipping... I wrote in my last post: "Fripp is a good example: I don't think there are any direct references in King Crimson's music to Thelemic themes,..."
How could I forget "Moonchild"?
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Xethal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 10:33 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
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Location: Pickering, North Yorkshire, UK
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Greetings!
So sayeth rabrazier:
Quote: › Fripp .... got heavily into Gurdjieff. Several of his records have extracts from interviews with J.G . Bennet one of Gurdjieff's disciples.
Is Kate Bush the only recording artist to mention Gurdjieff in a song?
http://lyrics.rare-lyrics.com/K/Kate-Bush/Them-Heavy-People.html
I bumped into her once in the street, literally.
When Ben Fernee had Caduceus Books in York she was often being played when I went there.
There are no direct 'occult' or Thelemic references in Howard Jones' music but when you consider the lyrics to New Song:
http://www.lyricsfreak.com/h/howard+jones/new+song_20066185.html
one wonders who or what exactly is speaking. The video was shot in a school classroom full of children. If Manson did that there would be uproar, but done in a 'nice' way is certainly more Satanic than anything Manson has done.
Don’t be fooled by what you see
Don’t be fooled by what you hear |
_________________
<a>Duane Moore</a>. I'm a Typhonian Occultist from Pickering with a <a>blog</a>.
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 01:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Folkestone.Kent.UK.
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The Kate Bush Gurdjieff name drop was on "Those Heavy People" off "The Kick Inside " album.
Thinking about King Crimson ,one of there last albums had the Sun and Moon joined alchemical/Tantric symbol on the cover.
Onr of the Fripp/Eno albums (No Pussyfooting?) has the long track Index of Metals on it which is a musical version of Paracelsus.
Robert.
You know I bought these albums when they came out. Looking at the dates, allof a sudden I feel OLD. |
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Frater_Shaitaan |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 06:03 PM
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Joined: Oct 17, 2005
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The Nachtkabarett
This website may prove to be most interesting for those of you interested in Marilyn Manson's relation to the occult and Thelema. IMO he goes far beyond the childish CoS nonsense.
But check it out for yourself.
93s |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 07:53 PM
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Site Admin
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| A very impressive site: thank you for the link... |
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papanick |
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Post subject:
Posted: May 06, 2006 - 09:58 PM
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lashtal wrote: › A very impressive site: thank you for the link... Fra. S,
I second that -- thanks for the link.
I've noticed the occult symbolism in Manson's CD art and suspected it was more than just throwing an inverted pentagram on a record for shock value. The part of the website on the occult/alchemical symbolism is excellent. I was drawing my conclusion about just another CoS musician from Manson's autobio, where he doesn't really go deeply into his broader occult interests.
So, to call Manson a CoS Satanist and stopping there falls short of the mark by a long shot. Nor can he be labelled simply Thelemic. As goofy as it might sound, he's an artist, draws his inspiration from a variety of sources, and has an individual, unique vision. And I think perusing that website really shows that he is more than a product of his record company (at any rate, according to an interview linked from that site, he's no longer on the Nothing label and is working more at managing his own career).
I like being corrected, although I'm not a masochist. It just means I have more to learn.
Thanks again,
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wolf354 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 19, 2006 - 10:26 AM
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If you want to look deeper into CoS bands please don't forget Boyd Rice and some atention to Marc Almond too. It would be interesting to read your diferent opinions.
And with Boyd Rice you can establish links with many bands (like Current 93, Coil, Death In June and more). It seems Boyd and Marilyn are good friends.
And of course Marilyns wedding priest was Alejandro Jodorowsky. Surprised? it seems they are making a movie together... and I also think some messages here are underestimating Marilyn...
Best,
Wolf354 |
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morganxpage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 18, 2007 - 07:15 AM
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| Interestingly, Marilyn Manson has made several remarks to the effect that he is "associated" with the O.T.O.... (and, as for the CoS accusation, he's made it abundantly clear that while he admired LaVey, he was never a member of CoS) |
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Mothrae |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 18, 2007 - 06:38 PM
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Location: Pennsy USA
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For the sake of another wrench thrown into the works...
The introduction to "The Satanic Bible" mentions that before he founded the CofS, Anton LaVey looked into Crowley's teachings (although it doesn't specify) but LaVey decided that AC wasn't "wicked enough". Interesting concept.
Having a copy of "The Satanic Bible" is worthwhile. I'd much rather know what someone really is all about, rather than someone else's opinions. The SB is a lot more benign than people would imagine. Not very evil at all. Most will be disappointed.
LaVey has a very interesting take on the 19 Enochian Keys, as re-written by him.
As a sound and video tech and someone who has worked plenty of live concerts, seeing Manson live is worth the ticket price. What a show! |
_________________
No good deed goes unpunished, and there is no quiet way to empty an ice cube tray.
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 18, 2007 - 07:02 PM
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Mothrae wrote: › Seeing Manson live is worth the ticket price. What a show!
Absolutely! |
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morganxpage |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 18, 2007 - 07:38 PM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2006
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I've had the privilege of seeing him live twice, myself.  The best was seeing him perform in a theater rather than a stadium during the Grotesk Burlesk. Theaters make much better venues for him! Really, next to David Bowie, best concert I've ever been to!
93 |
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Baphomet111 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 05, 2007 - 08:16 AM
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93
"A girl's name on a guy, lots of stage theatrics; I wish I would have thought of that".
--Alice Cooper
Manson seems to be doing what most people who are involved in darker music: play on the unknown. Motley Crue had upside down pentagrams on their albums but they sure hell weren't Satanists. Cradle of Filth does the same thing, Morbid Angel, and Slayer to name a few. Just because it's there doesn't mean that they are really into it. The key to Manson, I feel, is the abruptness of the images. There's little hidden material. Try breaking down an album with correspondances. Not symbols, correspondances hinting at deeper understandings.
I'll read more on the extensive and informative website given above, but remember: He's a entertainer. Check out the rock stars who are actually into it. There's a sincerity and silence to them, action comes at the correct times; bones thrown into the Howlers.
Rock music is wonderful because it represents the evolution of expression through sound, a fundamental to the world (see new theories on science). There are many people who are doing amazing things with this and changing to new and exciting hieghts.
ABRAXAS
93 93/93 |
_________________
Mind = Sun
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 - 03:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 02, 2006
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Location: New York
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93 all
While doing some shopping this evening, I noticed Kallnacher has a Manson labeled absinthe about to come out. I'm not a big fan of Manson but I highly recommend any Kallnacher absinthe. http://www.absintheonline.com/acatalog/Kallnacher_Swiss_absinthe.html
Jhonn Balance... now Manson. I'm seeing a trend here. When do I get my label? I'm practically made of the stuff these days.
93 93/93
John
Do you realize you have the Most Beautiful face? |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 16, 2007 - 11:07 PM
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Posts: 6
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 - 12:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 02, 2006
Posts: 200
Location: New York
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93 estrella
...and Fripp brings us full circle! There's a some interesting connections that link Fripp to Manson albeit in a roundabout way and with Crowley at the hub.
In other words, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Fripp ends up with a Duplais label one of these days.
93 93/93
John
Trouth hath hym so, and it is no doubt, that the lover is to the heigher, and the heigher to the lower aunsweren. |
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Aum418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Aug 17, 2007 - 01:01 AM
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Joined: Oct 01, 2006
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