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[...] when I say magical I don't mean illusions, I mean magic in the sense of Crowley magick. I have been meeting and having very informative exchanges with practising magicians in this country and in America. I treat the occult very seriously, in fact more and more seriously, and have found great insight into what I do from these people.
-- Clive Barker
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Astaroth |
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Post subject: Is Thelema a belief system?
 Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 08:00 AM
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Joined: Jul 24, 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Oz
Status: Offline
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>>Is Thelema even a belief system? It could be argued that Thelema is more a system of action and experience. Thelema places more value on direct experience and action more so than taking at face value misplaced dogma. So even the idea of Thelema "being" a belief isnt a clear case. <<
Sure, but acttion presupposes a *belief* in the effectiveness of this action, otherwise you wouldn't do it. If Thelema is more a system of action and experience you would be presupposing that this is effective - unless you didn't want to be effective but wanted to be something else.
It is a belief system, because why would you bother with it otherwise. Believing in something doesn't necessarily mean believing dogma.
~Astaroth. |
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Astaroth |
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Post subject: Thelemites in other countries
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 08:06 AM
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Joined: Jul 24, 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Oz
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>>I don't want to make too much of this, but why only in the UK (and USA)? Surely there are some Thelemites in other countries, even in other English speaking countries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand...). In terms of the OTO, former Yugoslavia, before the wars in the 90s, had the largest community in Europe and second in numbers globally. Or we do not count?<<
Well from my point of view, it was the first thing that came into my head that was bigger than Australia, where I live. When I think about things like "The Occult Scene" I tend to think first of Australia, then the UK and USA. Only because I am really not familiar with what's going on in Europe or Asia. Not because I think they don't count. More because I didn't think to include them in what was a rather hasty email.
~Astaroth. |
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גמל |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 12:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 25, 2008
Posts: 14
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93!
For Germany I would guess (I have to guess) about 2000 Thelemites (add or take a few hundred). Not more. Around 500 organized Thelemites in different groups and the rest solitary. These numbers are guessed due to a few years of experience in the thelemic sub-occulture and I think that it is pretty realistic.
93 93/93
גמל |
_________________
"Lovely chap, if dreadfully misinterpreted, and a bit too fond of the old laudanum"
Doctor Who, Timelord and british legend, about Aleister Crowley in the BBC Novel "Heart of Tardis"
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Alex_Bennett |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 01:09 PM
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Joined: Sep 15, 2006
Posts: 126
Location: England
Status: Offline
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Whilst I cannot hazard a guess at actual numbers of Thelemites in the UK (or elsewhere) from mere enquiries and actual ticket buying to The Thelemic Symposium which is open to all and has no restriction as to membership of any organisation. I would say that roughly 50% where reffered through magickal orders or pagan organisations of some kind and the rest where lone Thelemites or Pagans. This is a guess but it is made on the basis of emails and how they are written (e.g with formal 93/93s etc.. or not) plus mention of referals by the enquirers themselves.
The other way of making estimates is from Crowley booksales in the UK. If anyone had those figures in full we might be able to get a better picture.
I would give an educated guess that the overall majority of Thelemites are not afiliated to any order or organisation. The next major group would be Wiccans into Crowley by a long way (and they may prettend to be not into it to the Pagan Fed but very deffinately are in private). Only after that would we be dealing with the minority of order afiliated Thelemites some of which have more than one lodge but most are one working group or lodge.
Again I have no idea about actual numbers but when talking about this in general, most agree that in their experience, those into Thelema are distributed in the above way.
Alex
Love is the law, love under will. |
_________________
Alex Bennett
Do what thou wilt!
http://www.dowhatthouwilt.com
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 04:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 193
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kuniggety wrote: › @Iskandar: I don't believe my "accusations" are baseless - it's just a matter of interpretation of what Crowley wrote on the order.
Dear Kuniggety, I find myself in an awkward situation: in order to respond to you I have to go off the topic, which will annoy Paul. You asked me to send you a private message but I did not want to do this, since you made what I consider public accusations - in three consecutive posts. These were 1) that [Caliphate] OTO is not what Crowley had in mind; the reason for which is 2) that they removed magical teachings, which amounts to 3) no magical tasks or tests required to move through the degrees. Now, none of this is true. Magical teachings were not removed and there were no magical tasks involved in the OTO during Crowley's involvement with it, just as [Caliphate] OTO is striving to actualize Crowley's vision of the Order. Now you say that we differ only in the matter of interpretation of "what Crowley wrote on the order." I would be very much interested in learning what exactly Crowley wrote on that subject and whether we may establish on the basis of those writings that [Caliphate] OTO is really not what Crowley had in mind.
Paul, this still matters within the context of present concerns. The claim was - in my interpretation, though I might be wrong - that we cannot take seriously the number of people in the OTO since they belong to an Order that has somehow renounced Crowley's vision. Similarly, I would equally consider that it was in fact Kuniggety who went off the topic with the remark: "Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema." Why these remarks? Either they have nothing to do with the topic, in which case it is Kuniggety that goes off the topic, or they do, in which case it makes sense that somebody reacts to these, in my opinion condescending and incorrect remarks. And if they were not such, then the person should either explain or substantiate his or her intentions. It does not help if Kunigggety says that he did not mean disrespect. Does it really work that way that one can call a person a liar - to give an example, not to claim that anybody said this - and then to say, I did not mean to be disrespectful when I said that?
To bring this back to the topic, I would consider person's involvement with any Thelemic Order as an indication of their involvement with Thelema. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 04:30 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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Iskandar wrote: › The claim was - in my interpretation, though I might be wrong - that we cannot take seriously the number of people in the OTO since they belong to an Order that has somehow renounced Crowley's vision.
That's definitely not how I interpreted Kuniggety's remark - and I urge you to check his posting history for further evidence that you might have misinterpreted his comments.
However, you've given your response and I'll leave them as they are.
Now, back to the matter in hand...
Quote: › I would consider person's involvement with any Thelemic Order as an indication of their involvement with Thelema.
We can all agree that such activity would indicate such involvement.
But, I ask again: does any of this matter?
As a consistently wise friend wrote in an email to me today: "This planet currently has slightly over six billion Thelemites - Most of them just aren't yet aware of the fact!"
And I don't mean to be in any way flippant when I say that I believe he's absolutely right. |
_________________
Paul
Owner & Editor
LAShTAL.COM
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kuniggety |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 08:40 PM
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Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Okinawa, JPN
Status: Offline
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lashtal wrote: ›
And I don't mean to be in any way flippant when I say that I believe he's absolutely right.
I agree with that sentiment too. I think human nature makes us Thelemites. The question that everyone person asks is what their purpose is here. Sounds awful Thelemic to me  |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 06:02 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 684
Location: U.K.
Status: Offline
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Quote: › As a consistently wise friend wrote in an email to me today: "This planet currently has slightly over six billion Thelemites - Most of them just aren't yet aware of the fact!"
Why stop at humans? Why not include birds, trees, rocks and students of Western Esotericism?
This is compassed in the original post:
Astaroth wrote: › I wonder if this would simply be a hopeless request because perhaps there would be different levels of definition of a 'Thelemite'. I suppose *self-definition* as a Thelemite will have to do, as one would need to count "influenced by Crowley/Thelema" in a whole 'nother category (undoubtedly big, as it would be).
We'll be here forever if we want to find a line between "Thelemite" and "profane"; however, can I remind folks that in Liber AL the "Thelemites" (="us") are pretty clearly not meant to include everyone, such as those "who sorroweth", who are "not of us"?
It seems from Liber AL that the Thelemites are those who are "chosen" (by Nuit). This is, however, ostensibly paradoxical to the spirit of Thelema, which I would argue is profoundly anti-authoritarian. It's hardly an issue, however, when the authority is of such an abstract conception as Nuit.
(Re: Thelema being anti-authoritarian. I would contend that AC's idea of "benevolent despotism" provides a model for least actual exercise of political authority. The authority of Nuit -- Nothing -- is I suppose the ultimate extension of this.)
We're definitely all Mormons though, along with some of our pseudonyms  |
Last edited by ianrons on Jul 03, 2008 - 07:13 AM; edited 1 time in total
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magispiegel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 07:05 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Hi Ian,
Chosen by who? By 'The Sons of Reflected Light'?  (apparently, they were over 7 feet high and taught certain mysteries to those that were able to receive them i.e. those with a particular intelligence).
Really it is a matter of 'Who chooses who?'. A mystery indeed, which requires two parties either way to complete the circuit 
Does not the initiate need to go through some ordeals?, so that their minds can resonate with higher/deeper states of thought vibration? i.e. HGA. Which means the adept 'chooses' to become the pylon of transmission or contact (communion) with spiritual or non-spatial dimensions of experience. These experiences are always present i.e. AIWAZ, and they are dependent upon the visscitudes of the adept to receive them.
Best Wishes
Charles |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 07:12 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 684
Location: U.K.
Status: Offline
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"chosen" by Nuit, of course. Hence phrases like "my chosen" in Liber AL.
I've edited the post to make it clear. |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 03, 2008 - 07:15 AM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
Status: Offline
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Nice one Ian! |
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gurugeorge |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 10:09 AM
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Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Tbh I'm a bit dubious about the whole notion of calling oneself a Thelemite at all. In Liber AL it seems to be something others call "us" (whoever "us" is).
Does it even make sense for someone doing their True Will to consider themselves part of a Thelemic "community"? That sort of talk is contemporary and sort of PC, but is it - well, Thelemic?
I certainly wouldn't call people Thelemites just because they are members of any OTO. The OTO idea is a social idea, the idea of a club like the Freemasons that's involved in worldly affairs but tries to "do the right thing" by the world, and has some philosophical depth. That's a great thing, but to me it's not quite Thelema. I'd be more comfortable calling members of the A:.A:. Thelemites, but only those of Adept grade and beyond, and only if they had a certain dedication to the cause, which not all do.
I don't know, I guess I reserve the term "Thelemite" for something pretty high up there in the scheme of things, and it wouldn't feel right for me to call myself that. It would be like me calling myself a "computer programmer" just because I know a bit of DOS. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 04:24 PM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 193
Status: Offline
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| Since I suggested the concept of community and would definitely count members of any Thelemic order as Thelemites, I would only like to clariify that to my mind these notions make sense within the context of three grades: the Man of earth, the Lover and the Hermit. And while what gurugeorge suggests makes sense with respect to Hermits, I still think that it makes sense to talk about community with respects to Men of Earth and in the light of the precept that 'the Law is for all.' |
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gurugeorge |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 05:48 PM
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Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Iskandar wrote: › Since I suggested the concept of community and would definitely count members of any Thelemic order as Thelemites, I would only like to clariify that to my mind these notions make sense within the context of three grades: the Man of earth, the Lover and the Hermit. And while what gurugeorge suggests makes sense with respect to Hermits, I still think that it makes sense to talk about community with respects to Men of Earth and in the light of the precept that 'the Law is for all.'
I see what you're saying, but I would put even "Man of Earth" as a pretty high grade (either Practicus, Philosophicus or Adeptus Minor Without, with Adeptus Minor Within, Adeptus Major and Adeptus Exemptus, or their equivalents in other systems, forming the Lover triad, and Hermits being beyond the Abyss). Maybe it's just me
Regardless, it's certainly an interesting question how many people are sort of "into Crowley" all over the world (that's about how loosely I'd put it really, accepting that some of them might be Thelemites strictly so-called according to my definition here), and a few tens of thousands sounds about right. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
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Iskandar |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 04:08 AM
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Joined: Feb 14, 2005
Posts: 193
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| It is certainly an interesting question, just as are these various ways of defining what or who a Thelemite is or might be. It merits its own separate thread, "What constitutes a Thelemite?" although it is relevant here also, since in order to figure out how many Thelemites might there be, we need to define what do we mean by 'Thelemites.' I am somewhat reluctant about the notion of 6 billion Thelemites being out there (although it is interesting in a certain sense), since the identity is based on difference, and if all are Thelemites then in a sense nobody is. Trying to say that a conscious identification is crucial. Still, there are people who live their life in accordance with what we might call the law of Thelema, without necessarily being aware of it at all. I always considered person's acceptance of the Boook of the Law as a determining factor. But even that may be vague. What does it mean to accept AL? I would say, at the least to take it as an ispired text that might have some relevance to person's outlook on life. 'But there are means and means.' |
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gurugeorge |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 10:54 AM
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Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Iskandar wrote: › Still, there are people who live their life in accordance with what we might call the law of Thelema, without necessarily being aware of it at all.
Yes, and I'm sure we've all even met people who are quite "thelemic" in their lives, yet if you pointed it out to them they would recoil in horror with the association! |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
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Oscillate |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 05, 2008 - 11:16 AM
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Joined: Jul 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Is becoming a Thelemite a goal in itself or does it refer to someone who has embarked on the spiritual/magickal journey that Thelema entails? If it refers to the process, then surely the meaning of 'Thelemite' will shift and change as the individual progresses in their spiritual development?
XO |
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