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badfreddy |
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Post subject: Crowleys Ashes
 Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 05:20 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 134
Location: The North
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I dont know if this subject has been coverd before on here, so fogive any repetition.
I know Crowley was cremated but what happend to the ashes?
Usually there is a paque or marker somewhere to denote the burial of ashes, unless they are scattered.
I heard that Crowley's ashes were sent to followers in the United States.
And also some where scattered at Boleskine Burial ground.
Iv even heard it said that Kenneth Anger owns an urn of his ashes, but Angers tales are often apocraphal.
Are there any records? |
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adonia444 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 05:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 14, 2006
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Well, I didnt want to announce this but...I just bought Crowleys ashes off of ebay for only 50 bucks! AND they came with an authentic Crowley ring even! I know, unbelievable eh?
Alright, alright, heres what I know with regards to Crowleys ashes. Not much. The stories are prolific, shocking i'm sure. Paul, Lutz, Michael Staley..i'm sure they would have something more "stable" to add to this. To blather on about other myths seems rather pointless so i'll leave it to the historians in the group to give you a better idea of which way to lean.
93 93/93
Kym |
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badfreddy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 05:45 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2005
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Location: The North
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lol ebay would suprise me, you know that right now im making little urns with crowley face on!
There was a Crowley bottle opener on there the other day, what next? Crowley mugs no doubt. |
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www.dyspraxianation.com
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 06:00 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Oxford, UK
Status: Offline
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New Jersey...
Base of tree...
Tree's location no longer known. |
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badfreddy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 06:07 PM
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Joined: May 23, 2005
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 06:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
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Quote: ›
what next? Crowley mugs no doubt.
LOL!!! Well, I for one, would gladly purchase one-even at an exorbitant price! The perfect vessel to drink my coffee "yogin-wise," of course! |
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adonia444 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 06:23 PM
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Quote: ›
New Jersey...
Base of tree...
Tree's location no longer known.
Yes, this is the one i'm more familiar with. I couldn't remember the state though which is why I didnt mention it. LOL. Shame the trees whereabouts is now unknown. And ironic that Crowley was buried in Jersey. 
Thanks for the information Paul, that would have bugged me all day. Those small forgotten details can really get to me. haha.
93 93/93
Kym |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 06:58 PM
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badfreddy wrote: › New Jersey, How come?
Crowley's ashes were sent to Karl Germer, who was living there at the time. He buried them under a tree. Several years later, when the Gemers were moving home, Karl could not find them.
Some maintain that Karl let slip to the cognoscenti that Sascha Germer smashed the urn against a tree. In the interests of fairness, it should be pointed out that Sascha Germer is a bete noir to some, perhaps because she regarded McMurtry as a waste of space . They maintain that she deliberately hid from McMurtry and others the fact of Germer's death, no doubt by affecting his voice on the telephone, or disguising herself as Karl when anyone came visiting. 
Talking of ashes, did anyone else notice that Chelsea's goal came from a unpunished foul by Ashley Cole? |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 07:15 PM
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Quote: ›
did anyone else notice that Chelsea's goal came from a unpunished foul by Ashley Cole?
Is this some sort of esoteric Typhonian Talk from the Sovereign Sanctuary? |
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arcturus418 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 08:03 PM
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| It was in HAMPTON NJ I think. And maybe Germer scattered the ashes on receipt.... |
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badfreddy |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 08:19 PM
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TreeDragon7 |
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Post subject: tree in new jersey
Posted: Dec 10, 2006 - 09:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 27, 2005
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why do they call new jersey the garden state? what are they growing, smoke stacks ?
bad joker, Ryan |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 05:33 AM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › They maintain that she deliberately hid from McMurtry and others the fact of Germer's death, no doubt by affecting his voice on the telephone, or disguising herself as Karl when anyone came visiting.
That is one rather uncharitable way of looking at it making it seem like an irrational tale. Another and more charitable way of looking at it was that she, who was reclusive, deliberately neglected to inform the other american members of Germer's death, which makes it seem not only rational but likely given her feelings towards them, and is actually the one I have heard from people over the years. I think one would be hard pressed to find someone who claims the things you attribute to the theory
Other than that nice summary of the two tales of what happened to the ashes. If I remember correctly the one about S. dispersing the ashes has been told by McMurtry who reported Karl Germer told him about it when he inquired about the ashes. |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 10:59 AM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › Another and more charitable way of looking at it was that she, who was reclusive, deliberately neglected to inform the other american members of Germer's death . . .
Phyllis Seckler accompanied Sascha Germer to the funeral parlour to collect Garmer's ashes (quoted in Cornelius's biography of McMurtry). Helen Parsons-Smith also knew of the death because the Swiss O.T.O. sent a circular letter to Wilfred Smith, unaware that Smith was dead (quoted in Starr's biography of Smith). It would not have been unreasonable of Sascha Germer to expect that these two would have informed the others - assuming that there was still contact between these people, of course, Agape Lodge having been closed down by Germer in 1953. |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 12:34 PM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › Phyllis Seckler accompanied Sascha Germer to the funeral parlour to collect Garmer's ashes (quoted in Cornelius's biography of McMurtry). Helen Parsons-Smith also knew of the death because the Swiss O.T.O. sent a circular letter to Wilfred Smith, unaware that Smith was dead (quoted in Starr's biography of Smith). It would not have been unreasonable of Sascha Germer to expect that these two would have informed the others - assuming that there was still contact between these people, of course, Agape Lodge having been closed down by Germer in 1953.
As I understood it there were little contact between McMurtry and the others until he was informed that Germer was dead. Is there a reason why Sascha would have known about the circular letter to W. Smith?
Even so, there is little or no reason for taking the rather uncharitable view you mentioned above on those who hold to this theory. |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 01:22 PM
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Patriarch156 wrote: › As I understood it there were little contact between McMurtry and the others until he was informed that Germer was dead.
Yes, that's obvious. Interesting that neither Phyllis Seckler nor Helen Parsons-Smith, nor anyone else who might have heard it from these two, made much if any effort to track down McMurtry and tell him the news. Somewhat curious considering that McMurtry was supposed to be such a senior officer. 
Patriarch156 wrote: › Even so, there is little or no reason for taking the rather uncharitable view you mentioned above on those who hold to this theory.
There's nothing to substantiate the view that Sascha Germer hid the news of her husband's death from ex-members of Agape Lodge. After all, she was prompt enough to inform Motta and Metzger it would seem. Thus if anyone is being uncharitable it is those who peddle such a view, perhaps to account for McMurtry apparently not knowing anything about Germer's death for years afterwards. |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 07:23 PM
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MichaelStaley wrote: › Yes, that's obvious. Interesting that neither Phyllis Seckler nor Helen Parsons-Smith, nor anyone else who might have heard it from these two, made much if any effort to track down McMurtry and tell him the news. Somewhat curious considering that McMurtry was supposed to be such a senior officer.
If the factions were allready polarised I don't really find that surprising at all. Again it all depends on how charitable one is when attributing hidden motives for people's views.
Moreover McMurtry's position in the Order as a senior officer is clearly laid down in the letters by Crowley. That he fell out of favour does not really change this.
Quote: › There's nothing to substantiate the view that Sascha Germer hid the news of her husband's death from ex-members of Agape Lodge. After all, she was prompt enough to inform Motta and Metzger it would seem.
Both of which were never members of Agape Lodge.
Quote: › Thus if anyone is being uncharitable it is those who peddle such a view
Uncharitable towards Sascha perhaps but not really as a interpretation of why people think as they do.
Quote: › perhaps to account for McMurtry apparently not knowing anything about Germer's death for years afterwards.
That is a rather uncharitable way of interpreting these things, another just as uncharitable way of ascribing motives to yourself is that you yourself stands to gain that McMurtry's position in the Order is weakened which seems to have been your whole point the whole time |
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magispiegel |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 08:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 21, 2005
Posts: 466
Location: London
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Hello Patriarch156,
This thread has gone a tad provocative...
So, I think Ill make my own order ? 
So...what would the plan be?
Answer: Like everybody else i.e. The Great Beast, Krishnamurti, Rudolf Steiner etc....join an order, learn from it, exploit it, use and abuse people, create differences of opinion and have arguments or magickal wars if you so will?, that is, with others who disagree with a particular point of view or order/system(s)...then BREAK, BREAK, BREAK away! and create youre own parrot fashioned one? Why not copy some of the rituals and initiations too? Yes! What a great idea..., you got the books and the experience  
What's the point?
naturally...'to evolve from' old fashioned restrictions of view in regard to the practice of THE GREAT WORK....Hail Kenneth Grant!
Others have done it! anyone willing to sign their souls over?
Please make your application, if you dare!
Best Wishes
Charles |
Last edited by magispiegel on Dec 11, 2006 - 09:35 PM; edited 1 time in total
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 09:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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Patriarch156 wrote: › If the factions were allready polarised I don't really find that surprising at all. Again it all depends on how charitable one is when attributing hidden motives for people's views.
I don't know to which "factions" you are referring. Both Phyllis Seckler and Helen Parsons-Smith were senior members of McMurtry's O.T.O.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Moreover McMurtry's position in the Order as a senior officer is clearly laid down in the letters by Crowley. That he fell out of favour does not really change this.
The letters that Germer wrote to McMurtry in the late 1950s hardly merit such an anodyne description as "out of favour". They are vitriolic, and make it clear that Germer had a very poor opinion of McMurtry. Doubtless you have them; they were available in the download section of this site until a few weeks ago.
It is true that McMurtry was never removed from office. On the other hand, towards the end of his life Germer seems to have regarded the O.T.O. as moribund, so would have considered a high office on paper as neither here nor there.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Both of which were never members of Agape Lodge.
I didn't suggest that they were.
Patriarch156 wrote: › Uncharitable towards Sascha perhaps . . .
Glad we can agree on something.
Patriarch156 wrote: › That is a rather uncharitable way of interpreting these things, another just as uncharitable way of ascribing motives to yourself is that you yourself stands to gain that McMurtry's position in the Order is weakened which seems to have been your whole point the whole time)
In what way do I stand to gain from a weakening of McMurtry's position? Are you worried that the whole edifice might come tumbling down? You wouldn't want to encourage me, now would you? |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 09:36 PM
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Site Admin
Joined: Sep 30, 2003
Posts: 2388
Location: Oxford, UK
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Just a reminder that this thread was originally about the current location of Crowley's ashes, not a request for the re-stating of entrenched pro- and anti-OTO factions.
There's a place for that conversation: it's just that it's not in this thread.
Back to topic or a new thread, please... |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 11, 2006 - 11:03 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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badfreddy wrote: › I have prevously read that some of his ashes where indeed given to Deidre McClellan, the mother of Crowley's son Randall Gair (aka Aleister Ataturk).
I recall reading that too, somewhere, sometime. All in all, I'm glad the ashes were lost. One less holy relic to be worshipped . . . |
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