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Astaroth |
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Post subject: Numbers of Thelemites?
 Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 12:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 24, 2005
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Location: Oz
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Greetings,
Does anyone have any idea on the _numbers_ of Thelemites (of all sorts) in the UK (and USA)?
I wonder if this would simply be a hopeless request because perhaps there would be different levels of definition of a 'Thelemite'. I suppose *self-definition* as a Thelemite will have to do, as one would need to count "influenced by Crowley/Thelema" in a whole 'nother category (undoubtedly big, as it would be).
Would any recent British census have counted 'Thelemites' or would they have been subsumed under a term such as 'Pagan' perhaps?
Thanks,
93
Astaroth. |
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kuniggety |
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Post subject: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 10:16 AM
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| The vast majority of modern day pagans have been influenced by Crowley, whether they realize it or not. For those who actually self stylize themselves as Thelemites, I think it would be next to impossible to determine. You can't even look at Thelemite order membership because it isn't exactly a requirement to be a Thelemite to belong to an order, and many choose not to, and even quite a number of the people that belong to organizations like the OTO aren't Thelemites but rather just looking for companionship in a like minded environment. |
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Astaroth |
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Post subject: Number of Thelemites
Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 11:41 AM
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Yes I agree with both your points. I guess I'm just interested to see how popular Crowley's legacy has become. But if I'm going to include the broader Neo-Pagan category as "those influenced by" then I think it is indeed uncountable!
~Astaroth. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 11:50 AM
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Site Admin
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kuniggety wrote: › You can't even look at Thelemite order membership because it isn't exactly a requirement to be a Thelemite to belong to an order, and many choose not to
That's very true - by any means of counting, though, several thousand have taken the trouble to join the various Thelema-specific organisations.
And it's interesting that nearly 5,000 people have bothered to register as members of this site, which is devoted to only one small aspect of Thelema: the life, works and legacy of an obscure English poet.
The figure that's often bandied about - with what justification I don't know - is 30,000 Thelemites (self-described as such). |
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Paul
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Astaroth |
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Post subject: Number of Thelemites
Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
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Thanks for that. Yes, I thought that I had seen a number for membership to this site and then I couldn't find it. Indeed, I wouldn't be thinking that I could just count formal order membership numbers - presuming that I'd have access to them anyway!
I don't think I'm going to get a specific number. I was just really fishing about for numbers that people *thought* might be accurate, and if I did actually get some sort of more really accurate number that'd be good.
As I said, I'm interested in how popular, and in how desirable people think it is to adopt Thelema as a belief system.
~Astaroth. |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 29, 2008 - 12:34 PM
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Quote: › Astaroth said "Thelema as a belief system"
Is Thelema even a belief system? It could be argued that Thelema is more a system of action and experience. Thelema places more value on direct experience and action more so than taking at face value misplaced dogma. So even the idea of Thelema "being" a belief isnt a clear case.
I know its off topic but i thought i would say it, to show that culturally Thelema is a slippery thing to get a grasp off. ( Also the issue over what would constitute a Thelemite? There is no monopoly over the term. Pre Crowley Thelemites? Post Crowley Typhonians? Agape observing Orthodox Christians? And considering that Thelema could be described has an "action" a state of will/being, how many professed Thelemites have reached that state of pure will/being to justify being called a Thelemite? Thelema doesnt seem to like being pigeon holed.) |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 10:46 AM
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Location: Yokohama
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| i agree, it's difficult to count numbers as the definition of a thelemite, or of thelema, can be problematic. in this way i think it's similar to rastafari, in that it's a spiritual path where there are many people drawn to it from many different areas, but there isn't one organisational body, and it's more like "a way of life" than any organised religion or philosophy (except perhaps certain schools of buddhism). |
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 01:02 PM
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93!
Not that I can deliver any numbers here, but I think the definition of a Thelemite is not important in this case, since Astaroth is specifically seeking how "popular" Thelema has become. And I guess it is enough if someone believes to be a Thelemite (whatever this is) to be counted in. In the same manner all people who could be described as "Thelemites" without knowing it should not be counted (there was a thread once on how Thelemic some people are without ever having heard of Crowley). I think most people who claim to be Thelemites have heard of Crowley - and those few who took the name because of some fiction of Rabelais can be disregarded. There also so-called Satanists who prefer to be called Thelemites because it sounds less embarassing probably, and I think those should be counted too. So - I would say - forget about belief system or not, forget about pre- or post-Crowley, forget about Thelema altogether. To see how popular Thelema has become, it should be enough to know how many people think they are Thelemites - but I don't know how many they are unfortunately.
Love=Law
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Perdurabo says: "Gorse is prickly, but its bloom is golden. So also is the Kingdom of Heaven."
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jlcrow |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 02:13 PM
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lashtal wrote: › The figure that's often bandied about - with what justification I don't know - is 30,000 Thelemites (self-described as such).
Paul, I find this number interesting. If possible, do you know a source? I ask because the OTO (caliphate some call it) claims a membership of roughly 3000, thus 10% of the 30,000. While we can debate the reality of both the 30,000 and 3,000, it does lead one to ask, where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema.
(After rereading this it occurs to me that many will say they are here on the board or working outside the Order, etc. My point is to not offend, but to point out that joining an organization is a way of participating that is in line with how Crowley presented Thelema. We have a few thousand others in other OTOs and other Non-OTO orgs. That still leaves tens of thousands of Thelemites in which Thelema manifests in their live in a variety of ways. It would be interesting to see how divergent that is. I think the online community is only a small portion of the overall 30K Paul mentions.)
Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used? Red Wheel/Weiser had a heck of a time in the past selling out certain titles and others sold well for a while, but then slowed considerable. Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
While Astaroth asked in the sense to find out how popular or "big" Thelema is, the question has larger implications. And if we don't have any clues as to how to approach it, then we are at a significant disadvantage when representing it to those on the outside, as well as determining the viability of markets or scaling things to serve those who consider themselves Thelemites in any form or fashion.
In the end it is a really important question and it is unfortunate that there is no way of really knowing right now. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 03:28 PM
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Astaroth wrote: ›
Does anyone have any idea on the _numbers_ of Thelemites (of all sorts) in the UK (and USA)?
I don't want to make too much of this, but why only in the UK (and USA)? Surely there are some Thelemites in other countries, even in other English speaking countries (Australia, Canada, New Zealand...). In terms of the OTO, former Yugoslavia, before the wars in the 90s, had the largest community in Europe and second in numbers globally. Or we do not count? |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 03:54 PM
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jlcrow wrote: › I find this number interesting. If possible, do you know a source?
No, if I knew the source I'd have mentioned it: the figure has been, as I say, "bandied about". I wouldn't have the faintest idea whether or not it's at all accurate.
Quote: › where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema.
I'm rather baffled by the question, to be honest. What am I, for example "doing with my Thelema"? Living it, working with it, being it, serving it. Am I a member of any Thelemic organisations? No. Is this relevant? Does a Christian need to attend meetings to be a Christian?
Quote: › My point is to not offend, but to point out that joining an organization is a way of participating that is in line with how Crowley presented Thelema.
It's certainly "a" way of participating, but possibly not the way that a significant proportion of Thelemites would choose.
Quote: › Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used?
By "engaging in the works of Crowley" do you mean: how many books do they buy? Again, I'm not sure that this is entirely relevant to the question at hand. Thelemites could, of course, buy just one book and then burn it!
Quote: › Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
Indeed.
Quote: › And if we don't have any clues as to how to approach it, then we are at a significant disadvantage when representing it to those on the outside...
Would claiming 100,000 adherents, or a million, change its representation? Why would it matter? If size meant anything in such matters, surely we'd all be Buddhists.
Quote: › In the end it is a really important question and it is unfortunate that there is no way of really knowing right now.
You're right: there's no way of "really knowing". I don't, however, think it's "really important" - just of passing interest. |
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Paul
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 04:14 PM
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lashtal wrote: › Does a Christian need to attend meetings to be a Christian?
It depends. If you are a Catholic, the largest denomination by the way, the answer is yes.
Quote: › If size meant anything in such matters, surely we'd all be Buddhists. .
No, we'd all the Christians. Catholics in fact. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 04:46 PM
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Iskandar wrote: › No, we'd all the Christians. Catholics in fact.
My error: you're absolutely right, of course. Either way, we wouldn't all be Thelemites if the number of adherents was significant in any meaningful sense.
And please, no-one bring up the "Thelema is/is not a religion" argument on this thread! It was only an example - and a very poor one in any case.
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Paul
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 06:19 PM
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"...where are the other 27,000 Thelemites in the bigger scheme of things and what are they doing with their Thelema."
To each his own. I've been a dedicated Thelemite for more than 20 years and I've never belonged to any exterior institution or organization. Being a very reclusive and solitary sort, and lacking good social skills, my Thelema is directed away from flocks and crowds. But it is nevertheless a very intense and devoted Thelema. No magical order is requisite to being a Thelemite. And not all the best Thelemites suffer the herd-instinct so much either --- not that it's a bad thing to belong to an org. I've contemplated several such initiatory systems of my own devising, and they do have their value. But ultimately the loftiest spiritual experiences are yours alone. |
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kuniggety |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 06:44 PM
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jlcrow wrote: ›
Another question that arises is how much to these aggregate Thelemites engage in the works of Crowley, new or used? Red Wheel/Weiser had a heck of a time in the past selling out certain titles and others sold well for a while, but then slowed considerable. Questions of market size, density, engagement and consumption have real material effects on the production of books, and other commodities.
I've been thinking about this question and the answer in book sales is, I think, the closest we're going to get for an accurate count. While Paul makes a good point that a Thelemite could have just bought Liber L and burned it, I would say a good majority of those who actually take heart to Thelema are going to buy at least 2 or 3 of the Beast's books. What makes it even harder to answer is the fact that there are admirers of Crowley's work and study some of his work, and even incorporate some of his magickal system, without self stylizing themselves as a Thelemite. I really think 30k is on the high side. 30k people who have incorporated Thelema and Crowley's magick into their religion/philosphy, sure, but not those who when asked the question of what their religion is, answer Thelema.
I think Paul has a reasonable reaction to the "what are the other 27k doing?" Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema. Even belonging to the AA, which is more aligned with Thelema, doesn't constitute one being a Thelemite. One's involvement in Thelema, or any religion for that matter, is entirely a personal affair and totally unrelated to any involvement in any earthly/mundane organization. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 07:32 PM
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kuniggety wrote: › Membership in a pseudo-masonic order that isn't what Crowley envisioned has nothing to do with a person's involvement with Thelema.
Let's see: Being involved in it for 25 years, revising its complete rituals so that they are aligned with Thelema, leaving all its written works to it: this equals an Order that isn't what Crowley envisioned. Calling what some call Caliphate OTO (for that's what has been implied) a psedu-masonic Order and claiming that three thousand people involved with it have nothing to do with either personal involvement or Thelema - that is such bigotry and ignorance and riding a high horse. Besides, the question that John asked was a genuine one: it deals with an issue that Buddhists call sangha, community. Their claim is that there are three jewels, that depend on each other, that cannot be separated from each other. The awakened person: personal embodiment of enlightenment (Buddha). His doctrine (dharma). The community of those who accept the doctrine and strive towards awakening (sangha). As I said, you cannot have them separately. Buddha has left his tree and started associating with people in order to share his insight: without it he would not have been a Buddha. Crowley mentions at few places that he will not be a pratyeka (or, pacekka) Buddha - a solitary adept who cares only of his own enlightenment and his own nirvana and that his preferences are with Bodhisattvas, those who keep reincarnating in order to help others awake (or, in the phrase of Ankh-f-n-khonsu, to do his pleasure on the Earth among the legions of living). Now, one does not have to be a member of a particular Order in order to be a member of community, there are many ways of being social, but it is really disappointing to see people being so condescending towards those who have chosen to join - whatever you may think, the fact is that it is a - Crowley's OTO.
I have to express my admiration to the initiates of OTO who have retained their dignity despite all the condescending remarks against their Order, their Frater Superior, their vision of fraternity, and their own brethren and their personal and magical worthiness. |
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kuniggety |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 07:37 PM
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| You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not being condescending at all towards the Caliphate OTO... I'm just saying that belonging to a fraternal organization, that has removed the magickal teachings that Crowley taught, has nothing to do with ones being a Thelemite. Does belonging to a Church make a Christian a Christian? Hardly. It's their belief in Christ. A person can get involved in the OTO to be in a community with like minded invididuals but its hardly indicative of their involvement with Thelema. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 07:42 PM
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| So in order for me not to put words in your mouth, could you please substantiate: which magical teachings have been removed from OTO, by who and when? |
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kuniggety |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 07:48 PM
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| There are no magickal/spritual attainment required for the grades. But anywho, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand and if you really feel like discussing this with me, then PM me. It's neither here nor there what I feel about the Caliphate OTO, which is entirely NOT negative, but rather I don't feel belonging to the order has anything to do with how good of a Thelemite one is. Hell, I belong to one of the lineages of the AA, and I have the same feelings towards it that it's not indicative of how good/pious of a Thelemite I am. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 08:08 PM
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| There were never magical / spiritual requirements for the OTO while Crowley was its Head, they are not part of the system. You have to figure out the 'secret' of the IX degree by yourself and there some some magical tests appropriate for some degrees, but whatever is there is as it was while Crowley was alive and in accordance with his own design. The Order is a fraternal organization, built upon the principle of ancient mysteries, with graded procession of instructions being imparted to the initiates. You are confusing OTO and A.'. A.'. - a common mistake. However, my disagreement with you was based on your claim that OTO is a pseudo-masonic Order that has removed its own magical teachings and is not what Crowley designed - none of which is true. As for whether there is any value if a person is its member in terms of their own practice of Thelema, it is a moot point. We could never know and we should not care. We should mind our own business. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 09:16 PM
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Site Admin
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Iskandar: I don't know if there's some sort of contract that someone forgot to get me to sign when I started LAShTAL...
You know: the one that says that any mention of "OTO" in any thread must initiate (no pun intended) an immediate flurry of self-righteous posts that ignore common sense.
In case you've forgotten, this thread is about estimating the number of Thelemites and it seems that we've all agreed actual accurate figures are impossible. For some reason you've taken offence at the suggestion by another contributor to this thread that the OTO is a "pseudo-Masonic Order": to be honest, there's no need to do so. "Irregular Masonic" might be more accurate and tactful but I don't think any harm was intended.
By the way, I used to enjoy your posts a lot more when you used your previous username!
Back on topic everyone, please! |
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Paul
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jlcrow |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 10:48 PM
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| It is unfortunate that those who decided to reply to my thread also decided to ignore the comment of "That still leaves tens of thousands of Thelemites in which Thelema manifests in their live in a variety of ways. It would be interesting to see how divergent that is." |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 11:09 PM
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| Paul and Kuniggety - my apologies if I was rude in my responses. I still think that Kuniggety was condescending in his post and that he did not substantiate his accusations against the OTO. I was not aware that my posts were straying off the topic - not does it seem to me that it is possible not to get off the topic all the time - very often this is how any discussion progresses, you pick up a thread of conversation and it takes another turn. I was trying to make my point that those three thousand that are pert of the OTO should not be qualified as those who have joined something that has renounced Crowley's vision or some other words to that effect. Why is defending my opinion on these issues interpreted as a "flurry of self-righteous post that ignore common sense" is beyond me. However, my intention was to correct what I considered baseless accusation in Kunigety's post and I did not mean - nor I still do - to be rude. If I was, I sincerely apologize. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 11:24 PM
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Site Admin
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No problem at all: the site has experienced some rather foolish posts recently as the result of the traditional "my OTO is better than your OTO" squabble and I'm just alert to the possibility of it re-surfacing. I can see that "pseudo-Masonic" could be considered pejorative, although I don't believe that Kuniggety intended to insult, based in part on his posting history.
No need for apologies, though: you have every right to express your love for the Order to which you belong. Nuff said. |
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Paul
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 11:45 PM
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Comments appreciated Paul. And just to clarify, it was not so much 'pseudo-Masonic Order' that got me upset, it was the part where Kuniggety said that it "isn't what Crowley envisioned." Cause that is simply not true.
Back to the topic, I do consider social involvement crucial. This may but does not have to take a form of joining an Order or even, why not, being a member of Lashtal. Many people seem to think that social involvement is not cool; they prefer to be loners, 'individuals.' But I do not think that such a sharp division is necessary. One can still be an individual and, let's say, an initiate of an Order. Things are not black-and-white and people are not two-dimensional cartoon characters. If I am allowed to be a bit foolish, I would say that Big Brother wants us to be weird and alone, but that we should instead join together and become a community. |
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jun 30, 2008 - 11:51 PM
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"If I am allowed to be a bit foolish, I would say that Big Brother wants us to be weird and alone, but that we should instead join together and become a community."
Which community exactly? |
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 12:01 AM
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| I dunno about you, but I think that the best thing is to unify all Thelemic cultures, and to honor and celebrate each and every one -- be it Typhonian, Caliphate, Swiss, Brazilian, even the Choronzon Club tradition of Russell and Bertiaux...there are contributions across the board that are equally of merit as parts of the great legacy of Aleister Crowley, striving in their own way to perpetuate his Thelemic traditions. |
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Iskandar |
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Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Numbers of Thelemites?
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 12:29 AM
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Aleisterion wrote: › Which community exactly?
I thought, since the context was the number of Thelemites, that there should be no misunderstanding. But let me spell it out: the community of Thelemites.
If however your question was provoked by a possibility that I had in mind a particular Order, the answer is no, that's not what I had in mind. I think that it makes perfect sense for people to join different groups, but that we all should cultivate a sense and means of belonging to a community. And while I think that it is natural that some people are drawn towards OTO, and some towards Grant, and some towards Chaos magick, and some towards A.'. A.'. and some blah blah blah, it would be grand if we could take these differences as our strength and not as seeds of discontent (I'm sure I'm mixing up my metaphors, but that comes from not being a native speaker of English). |
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kuniggety |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 01:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 93
Location: Okinawa, JPN
Status: Offline
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@Iskandar: I don't believe my "accusations" are baseless - it's just a matter of interpretation of what Crowley wrote on the order. I'd like to think that we can just agree to disagree  I just didn't think this topic was the right place to talk about the Caliphate OTO and it's why I suggested taking it to PMs if you felt like venting so much.
And Paul is correct, I never meant to be insulting in the slightest, and meant pseudo in the terms of irregular, not in any derogatory way. I have zero against the Caliphate OTO - they keep a number of Crowley works in print and provide a good forum for fellow Thelemites to meet and work together. Heck, I might even find myself a member one day if I ever live in the vicinity of a lodge. My involvement with these forums doesn't have anything to do with a desire to insult anyone, nor present my ideas/thoughts as better than anyone elses'. I'm just another person working towards the Great Work
@jlcrow: I don't think it's so much of anybody ignoring it but not really having anything to say about it. I mean, the tens of thousands of people that don't belong to an order, they must be doing solitary work. Some have decided to make a presence on the web or try their hand on publishing some material, such as Paul of lashtal.com here and Aum418 who likes to cause a ruckus and is publishing his Journal of Thelemic Studies. |
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ianrons |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 01, 2008 - 04:29 AM
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Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 751
Location: U.K.
Status: Offline
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Note -- Vere Chappell, the TG of OTO, recently noted that the OTO have initiated 13,000+ individuals. Although the figures go back further, for realistic comparison I suppose this number ought to be regarded as covering a period of about 25 years since 1980.
Probably a high proportion of Thelemites have taken an OTO initiation at one time or another.
However, even if all of those OTO initiates thought they were Thelemites when they took initiation (which is *not* realistic), it doesn't mean they're Thelemites now; so the number of current Thelemites in that population of 13,000 is probably considerably less than 13,000.
30,000 doesn't seem like a bad guess nonetheless. In terms of world population, that makes roughly 1 Thelemite per 200,000. I suppose that probably qualifies as "few". |
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in 13° 
: 
in 27° 
: Anno IVxvii 
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