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I have never grown out of the infantile belief that the universe was made for me to suck.
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Oscillate |
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Post subject: Apocalypse For All?
 Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jul 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Greetings to you all,
It seems customary for new members to ‘set out their stall’ in their first post and, having just re-read what follows, I seem to have done the same despite not intending to do so.
Having browsed these boards intensively over the last few days, I have been impressed by the breadth of views that are expressed by the members. In particular, I am heartened by the quality of the skepticism on Lashtal – any spiritual and/or magickal quest is, IMO, fraught with doubts and uncertainties and so there is always a danger of latching on to a doctrine and accepting its precepts unquestioningly as a way of seeking solace. Despite the “Do What Thou Wilt…” ethos of Crowley’s work, it appears that Thelemites are no more immune from a dogmatic engagement with Crowley’s prolific output. And before anyone says anything, yes, I do appreciate that there can be a difference between ‘Thelemites’ and ‘Crowleyites’.
From my (admittedly limited) reading to date of Crowley’s work, what particularly impresses me is that it provides the reader with often breathtaking examples of lucidity of thought and expression, combined with an insight into a mind plagued with very human doubts and yearnings for something that transcends the mundane and physical - ‘John St John’ seems particularly revealing in this regard. The important thing, though, is that due to Crowley’s prolific output, these inconsistencies and contradictions are in the public domain, thus allowing one to make of them What Thou Wilt.
Moving on…what follows is not so much a request for a specific answer to a specific question, but rather an attempt to seek feedback as to whether the following ‘points’, which I have gleaned from different sources, can be reconciled and/or share any degree of commonality. If so far as I have any particular question(s) to ask, I have set these out afterwards:
Point 1. In ‘The Enochian Apocalypse’ by Donald Tyson, he says that the work communicated to John Dee was essentially a method of, for want of a better expression, unleashing the contents of Pandora’s Box on the world. He goes on to say that Crowley's working of Enochian magic was partially successful in doing so in that he opened 'a crack in the door', and this has lead to the numerous current global problems. A completion of Crowley’s work will ultimately throw the door wide open and will lead to a full manifestation of the Apocalypse.
Point 2. From reading particular threads on Lashtal, there seems to be some members who read certain parts of the Book of the Law as predicting that an Apocalyptic future does indeed await Mankind and that Thelemites have a role to play in bringing that about – only then, can the world be truly liberated from the strictures of ‘old religion’.
My third point comes from an essay in Richard Metzger’s Book of Lies – unfortunately I cannot find the reference for the moment but will edit this post once I have done so. In essence, the author puts forward the notion of subversion from within rather than from without. He gives the example of rather than breaking the window of, say, the local McDonald’s as a sign of one’s frustration at their global peddling of fast food culture, why not work your way up to the top of the organisation instead, and then use ones position to cripple it financially?
Point 4, and this is where I arguably slip into the realms of conspiracy theory – my apologies to the moderator if this goes beyond the remit of Lashtal, but please bear with me. Are the Western powers who assert their authority on the global stage mere husks or shells of Judeo-Christian thought that have already been subverted from within with a view to moving us towards an Apocalyptic meltdown?
In conclusion: if - and I accept that it is a very big if - one accepts that there is a commonality in the above points what, ultimately, is the difference between Judeo-Christian predictions of an Apocalypse and/or a future Messianic age, and the Thelemic notion of a post-apocalyptic future that will 'reward' those who have chosen to pursue the Great Work? Is Thelema and the works of Crowley ‘merely’ a scholarly bringing together of religious and esoteric thought that ultimately binds its ‘followers’ to world religious thinking rather than setting it apart as something unique? I understand and appreciate from other threads on Lashtal that members have differing opinions as to whether ‘Apocalypse’ refers to a physical or spiritual crisis, so there is no need to re-run those arguments here unless the context of your response requires it.
Well, thank you for taking the time to read my lengthy and imperfectly expressed thoughts. I look forward to any feedback you may be so inclined to give.
XO |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 05:14 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 155
Status: Offline
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Oscillate can you elaborate on you source for the opinon that the Book of the Law "predicts" an apocalyptic future? ( and can you pinpoint the thread where the Thelemites you quote saying that the Book of the Law predicts this point?) A lot of Thelemites will not recognise that opinion. Being liberated from religious constraints doesnt equal an apocalypse ( in the rabblerousing sense).
Also in what sense are you using the term apocalypse? A mystical way? Or a doom and gloom point of view? |
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gurugeorge |
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Post subject: Re: Apocalypse For All?
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 06:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 190
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Oscillate wrote: › what, ultimately, is the difference between Judeo-Christian predictions of an Apocalypse and/or a future Messianic age, and the Thelemic notion of a post-apocalyptic future that will 'reward' those who have chosen to pursue the Great Work?
Hey Oscillate, welcome to Lashtal! You raise some interesting questions there. I'd say that with regard to your above question, according to Crowley at least, there is no difference. Crowley thought the "Revelation of John" was a prophecy, a "seeing through the glass darkly", of the Age that would come to follow the Age in which it was written. The vision of a future without the "Christ" egregore would have been terrifying to a Christian, of course, so it seems like a "dark" thing, but actually the New Aeon is a thing of Light, Life, Love and Laughter.
That's if you believe that sort of thing. Some modern biblical scholarship seems to think the Apocalypse was just another Jewish Apocalypse (i.e. what amounts to a political commentary disguised as a mystical vision) that was taken over and interpolated by orthodox Christians. Whether that throws Crowley's theory into a cocked hat is another question. It's still feasible to see it as a prediction of a far future, although if scholarship is right, it was written after some of the great catastrophes that befell the Jews in Roman times and describes events contemporary with the writer (e.g. the "Abomination of Desolation" may actually refer to pagan statues of the Emperor being set up in the Temple, or something like that, my memory is a bit vague on it). |
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"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
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Oscillate |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 06:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Hello Zain,
Many thanks for your response. You raised a number of points which I shall deal with in turn.
The parts of the Book of the Law which seem (to me) to predict an apocalyptic vision are Chapter II, verses 17 to 21 & Chapter III verses 1 to 13. To clarify, I used the term ‘predicts’ in a broad sense to include an the sense of a self-fulfilling prophecy as well as an autonomous ‘vision’ of the future. In this thread - http://www.lashtal.com/nuke/PNphpBB2-vi ... 2398.phtml - ‘sonofthestar@gmail.com’ and ‘Magician’ appear to construe this as a prediction of an Apocalypse which constitutes a grand physical, spiritual and magical stand-off (my apologies that I havn’t got to grips with the tool to insert quotes from previous threads).
I fully accept that being free from religious restraints doesn’t equate to an apocalypse and this was not the point I was trying to make. Rather, I was trying to explore the relationship between the physical and spiritual notions of the concept. For example, if one promotes a world view – via government and/or a by a globalised, corporate mechanism of consumerism – that encourages a devotion to materialistic causes, whilst simultaneously displacing any enthusiasm for spiritual fulfillment, do we then end up in a position where one could deliberately seek to destroy that material ‘crutch’ (in the manner of subverting from within rather than from without as I mentioned in my OP) thereby creating a vaccuum that is then ‘filled’ by word of Thelema (or Christianity or whatever)? I’m thus using apocalypse in both a spiritual and ‘doom and gloom’ way.
Hope that makes things clearer.
Regards,
XO |
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Oscillate |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 04, 2008 - 06:44 PM
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Joined: Jul 03, 2008
Posts: 6
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
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Hello gurugeorge,
Thank you for your response. Yes, I think you've captured what I was driving at in my OP. I shall come back to you once I've had a chance to ruminate more fully on your post.
Regards,
XO |
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noxlux |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 06, 2008 - 06:03 PM
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Joined: Jun 23, 2007
Posts: 38
Status: Offline
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Howdy,
I don't even know if this is relevant. But there are a couple of things which I have repeatedly returned to regarding apocalypses.
1) In the beginning one tends to regard them as fearsome possibilities. Then one understands the reality of them and may be surprised by ones longing. This especially applies to darker systems of thought (I.e. necronomicon rather than enochian, crowleyan or christian) "'Immanizing the eschaton' you say. Well, how can I help?"
2) This may in part be connected with the symbolic apocalypse rather than the literal one. I.e. the total upheaval of everything one has considered true.
3) I think one thing which differentiates Crowleys apocalypse is that it definitely ushers in a NEW aeon. While other apocalypses are not just the end of an aeon, but rather the end of TIME.
random ramblings. I will shut now.
N |
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Phnglui mglw'nafl Cthulhu r'lyeh w'gah nagl fhtagn!
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