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zain |
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Post subject:
 Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 05:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 155
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Camilion i want to pick up on some of your points in your last post. I am going to highlight the bits i think are a bit disturbing and border possibly on brainwashing techniques.
Quote:
Ohm's Law does not govern human behavior, nor does it determine successful endeavor or individual self-fulfillment. Human behavior is governed by factors which are, to a certain extent, able to be voluntarily accepted or denied by each individual in question. The individual is capable, for example, of behavior that contradicts his or her own innate nature. The individual is also able to be so distracted, both internally and externally, as to be totally unaware that he or she even has an innate nature at all. Most children are not taught this important fact about themselves, at present. If the innate nature and inclination (Will) of a given individual is not 'retained,' then it must be 'recovered,' in a sense. Better put, more attention, emphasis and effort must be deliberately placed on the innate nature and inclination (Will) by the individual in question. This is where education as to the existence and significance of each individual's innate nature and inclination (Will) becomes valuable. No one can tell the individual what his or her Will is, but they can be told that they do, indeed, have one. In time, and with acclimation to habitual practice, behaving in accordance with Will becomes automatic, as it should be. Conscious deliberation becomes less and less necessary. The point is that education may be necessary to begin this process. End Quote.
Some of the points i have highlighted dont suggest anything remotely Thelemic and are closer to the new age constructs like NLP and the material that Scientologists love to inflict on people. This goes back to my earlier point of what is one persons definition of will will be alien to another. for example i could take your highlighted examples and quite easily show that those points would be used by political groups or cults in the 1950's and 60's to convert and brainwash people.( Eg : your will is the party's will. The will of the people is the will of the government.) Its these types of issues that are used, abused and manipulated to control and reduce peoples mental capacity. Like i said earlier, no one is an authority on what constitutes personal will/Thelema so to me what your advocating is no different to brainwashing or restrictng peoples knowledge on various examples of Thelema. And for something that is as contradictory and subjective/personal as Thelema, this type of "education" is a non starter. |
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Erwin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 06:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 314
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zain wrote: › And for something that is as contradictory and subjective/personal as Thelema, this type of "education" is a non starter.
Thelema is neither "contradictory" nor "subjective". No wonder you're having such difficulty grasping simple concepts if this is what you think.
zain wrote: › Like i said earlier, no one is an authority on what constitutes personal will/Thelema
Once again, including you, and by your own admission rendering completely invalid your silly suggestion that Thelema is "contradictory and subjective" and this "argument" as well.
When are you going to learn that it's not Thelema that is "contradictory" - it's you.
Erwin |
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alastor717 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 06:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 03, 2007
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I disagree with Zain and read nothing sinister in Camillion’s post that suggested “brainwashing” if his/her interpretation of Ohm’s law is interpreted a prescription for individual action. I would have though that the “more attention, emphasis and effort … deliberately placed on the innate nature and inclination” – amounts to nothing more than suggesting an individual seek to determine what their Will is.
Does Zain disagree that “education as to the existence and significance of each individual's innate nature and inclination (Will) becomes valuable”?
The point of Thelema is, to me, the declaration that, in terms of Will, that every man and every woman does “indeed, have one” and is not the discovery on one’s “Will” the point of Magick and theurgic practice? Is not the aim to act “in accordance with Will”? – as Camillion suggests? The process of discovering ones “Will”, sometimes in opposition to the learned and acquired practices of the socially programmed human is achieved in part by effort and practice. I agree totally that “education may be necessary to begin this process”. This may be self education through experience or the study of the efforts of one’s predecessors or fellow travelers. I see nothing sinister or smacking of mind control in this just the opposite.
The only thing I did struggle with was that I thought Ohm's law applied to electrical circuits and was that the current through a conductor is proportional to the potential difference (i.e. voltage drop or voltage) across the two points, and inversely proportional to the resistance between them. I had first hand experience of this when I last changed a plug. Maybe I am reading the wrong law.
Just as an aside I don’t know what experience Zain has of Scientology to claim that they “inflict” anything on anybody. I have had friends who were scientologists but found that those that knew of Crowley had a particular version of events concerning Hubbards contact with Parsons. Lets not turn Lashtal into a scientology bashing venue please. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 07:08 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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zain wrote: ›
Some of the points i have highlighted dont suggest anything remotely Thelemic and are closer to the new age constructs like NLP and the material that Scientologists love to inflict on people. This goes back to my earlier point of what is one persons definition of will will be alien to another. for example i could take your highlighted examples and quite easily show that those points would be used by political groups or cults in the 1950's and 60's to convert and brainwash people.( Eg : your will is the party's will. The will of the people is the will of the government.) Its these types of issues that are used, abused and manipulated to control and reduce peoples mental capacity. Like i said earlier, no one is an authority on what constitutes personal will/Thelema so to me what your advocating is no different to brainwashing or restrictng peoples knowledge on various examples of Thelema. And for something that is as contradictory and subjective/personal as Thelema, this type of "education" is a non starter.
Sometimes when we get serious and specific, things which we may not be accustomed to doing, we feel uncomfortable and some unpleasant associations may arise in our minds. This is natural, Zain.
What we are discussing here is our own innate nature and inclination, our own Will, not that of others, not that of governments, political groups or cults. Not that of others at all. Our own individual and unique Will. If any "brainwashing" is being implied here, it is the individual conditioning his or her own mind to do his or her own Will. As a prerequisite to doing this, each individual will determine, for themselves, what this Will is. The K&C of the HGA is a magical and mystical practice of accomplishing this. Once accomplished, however, one must then harness one's faculties and forces toward the task at hand, toward doing one's Will. Liber III vel Jugorum is an example of such a practice.
There is no 'evil spectre' of "brainwashing" lurking in these ideas, only the self-control and self-discipline that Crowley himself emphasized in his teachings. Also, from Liber AL:I,42: Let it be that state of manyhood bound and loathing. So with thy all; thou hast no right but to do thy will. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 08:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
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Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Proteus wrote: › You make some great points, Camlion. Particularly, that of 'recovering' one's Will. IMO, it gives the idea of our divine origins and perhaps an imposed veil of maya in Yetzirah (pardon the poor mixing of metaphors).
Many of us would say that it is necessary for individuals to understand that they have an 'innate nature and inclination (Will)'. The knowledge and conversation is a means and not an end. But, a means to what exactly? Does it have any societal or universal significance outside of ourselves? Does each conversion to Thelema cause the Serpent to eat a bit more of his tail until we finally have a Wide-Wide-Wide-Wake World?
I'd like to add that many failth-based religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) probably have a ready answer as to why they think salvation through their dogma and obedience to a creator are necessary for individuals and societies. Thelemites seem to get wrapped around the axle when we try to explain why we do what we do. Ironically, our responses often show us to be the slaves - blindly obedient to Liber AL.
That's all,
John
John, a society is the sum of its parts, of the individuals which compose it. When the majority of these individuals acquiesce to ideas such as that people are created by a species of gaseous vertebrate called "God," to do its bidding, to their personal detriment, during life, and to be rewarded or punished by it only after life, then that society will reflect this slave mentality, in general.
However, a 'slave-like' devotion to doing one's own Will is not to be mistaken for the same evil. Just as deliberately "brainwashing" oneself, better put as 'self-mastery,' is not the same as being "brainwashed" by another.
As for societal or universal significance outside of ourselves, I disagree with Erwin here. As the parts, the individuals, of the whole begin to function in accordance with their own innate natures and inclinations (Will), the dissonance of the whole begins to decrease. Therefore, there is obviously also a wider ranging benefit to be recognized by those whose Will it is to concern themselves with the greater good. |
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Draconuit |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 10:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 78
Location: London U.K.
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| Heavens above, and below the blessed duvet of Lillith! Shhh! Pt. 3 Perhaps? Never again the burning times! |
_________________
ONE<>ALL
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Draconuit |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 27, 2008 - 10:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 30, 2007
Posts: 78
Location: London U.K.
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| Error. |
_________________
ONE<>ALL
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Uni_Verse |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 12:51 AM
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Joined: Apr 16, 2007
Posts: 329
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Erwin wrote: ›
So when you said that "I am constantly at odds at how to do it without interjecting my own opinion into the matter" you were "alluding" to the fact that you waste your time being "constantly at odds" with how to do something that you accept is impossible?
No.
Erwin wrote: ›
Then I'll repeat my question: "Whatever for?"
Thelema.
Erwin wrote: ›
Well, unless you're exceptionally weak and stupid, with no capacity for Thelema in any shape or form, then you can also stop listening to somebody talking at your leisure, or leave a class at your leisure, or refrain from paying attention to some proselytising at your leisure, so this is irrelevant, isn't it?
That would be rude.
Erwin wrote: ›
You stop thinking such nonsense, that's what you do. "You" cannot be "more than your self", because "you" refers to "your self".
I was under the impression "you" denotes some one other than my self.
Erwin wrote: ›
So when you said that, for instance, "I am constantly at odds at how to do it without interjecting my own opinion into the matter", you meant that you actually haven't decided yet whether or not you are actually "constantly at odds" in this way, and you thought it would just be really fun and super to pretend that you had?
I am at odds for I have yet to decide "how to do it without interjecting my own opinion into the matter."
Erwin wrote: ›
As I said, you really ought to think things through better.
I think you should put your own advice to use. |
_________________
You are missing the point
There is only one verse, sung in infinite ways.
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Erwin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 01:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2007
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Uni_Verse wrote: › I was under the impression "you" denotes some one other than my self.
Not when it's addressed to you, fool.
If anyone was still harbouring any doubts as to whether your gibberish is on a par with Zain's, they should have been set straight now.
Erwin |
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 03:42 AM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Thelema is so much more, than some sterile philosophy--to simply make life easier going!
Our goal is to find and do our true will, but that is simply the first step necessary to approach ---the Great Work---before commencing the doing of it.
Does anyone really think, after reading the intricate and glorious treasures bequeathed to us by AC,
that the wealth of that which he presented to us, is merely " to make it easier to live here"---?
Sometimes it does, and sometimes it does not---according to what the individual's true will is, but Thelema does not necessitate the individual's life will be easier lived. In fact, it might be a much harder and dangerous go, once finding your true will, than not finding your true will!
So it is not enough to find one's true will; one must be prepared to sacrifice one's all to accomplish it---
and this might mean great and troublesome times are ahead for the individuals with the strength enough to preserve to the end.
No matter the upsets presented in Life--Wisdom says be strong!
If we fail at something, even in a disastrous way--and manage to live through it,
we are not to become world weary;
there is hope and help in other spells!
Although Thelema might appear (if glanced at or studied superficially-or presented that way) to be a selfish thing--where each man and woman accepting it--is solely concerned with their own individual self,---it is not! It is actually a multi jeweled effort, and presents us with an exceedingly lustrous social environment.
Each star does his and her individual work, but the result of that work is no less than the rectification of all that must be rectified; the reconsecration of all that has been profaned. The company of the stars have gathered, and are still gathering--that they might abide Here in Life, Light, Love, and Liberty! the likes of which are so very much more,--than explanations which reduce Thelema to something bland, and merge;
or anything less than something quite phenomenal.
If you consider it from the realm of analogy, we are reformatting the hard drive which manifests Malkuth right now. Each of us has a special program to put on that HD once it's all cleaned up and ready to run. We are Open Sourcing our Universe! with a brand new OS!!!!!!!
I do not think I am the first to have uttered this.
The possibilities are going to be limitless!
And we all have access to the code!
Don't worry Zain--each of us are free to write our own programs, and use it on ourselves,
--- if it is our will to reprogram our own brains and beings,
in order to remove the hindering mental constructs that make for no thing special.
It is for each individual to decided how much pain and effort they are willing to sustain,
in order to reach whatever success is necessary to validate their work.
Each and every one of us, having Infinity at our disposal!
Love is the law, love under will. |
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 11:00 AM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 643
Location: Munick / Germany
Status: Offline
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zain wrote: › if there is anyone you should be taking issue with then it is me, for my initial post making comparisons between evangelicals and people pushing their issues (which has got nothing to do with Thelema) on to other people.
Well, Zain, part of the senseless OTO-bashing in this thread was of course invited by your equally senseless presumption that OTO members "push their issues on other people".
zain wrote: › I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this.
Anyway, I am sure that most people here understand your point quite good, but your trying to "prove" this point and to construct some sort of brainwashing intentions out of what is clearly meant and presented as information transfer, would be quite ridiculous, wasn't it presented exactly in a manner that most witch-hunts in history (in every sense of the word, not only in a "religious" context) were initiated: Take a few quotes totally out of context (or change some minor facts) to construct the existence of "dangerous practices" by a certain group you don't like. If you don't want to see OTO members spreading the word, just look away or spread the word yourself - good luck with your well-meant web-page of "the contradictory and subjective/personal aspects of Thelema" - or just shut up. But this OTO-bashing is really awful. You should know better - but it wouldn't suit your intentions of course.
Just out of fun I take a few words from you and just alter slightly some parts:
zain nearly wrote: › And why do people need persuading about the coherence of Safe Sex and AIDS? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt. If people are happy with what they have why do they need to be persuaded? Again it comes back to the parallel with the heathen free information freaks in humanintarian organisations who seek to push their own take on what the Pope already unmistakenly has labelled as right and wrong.
Oh wait, now I see, this actually IS fun...
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 03:16 PM
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the_real_simon_iff, can you pinpoint exactly where this so called "senseless OTO bashing" is in this thread. I have done no such thing. I have merely challenged the idea that "spreading the word" of Thelema is a positive thing. In that sense it doesnt matter if its a single person or a organisation. I have merely defended my point and highlighted techniques found common in misguided religious groups and the argument presented by some people on this thread.
I 'll put my same point to you, would you feel confident enough to go and "spread the word" of Thelema knowing the contradictions inherent in such an action? And would your interpretation or experience of Thelema, you are "selling" be suitable to present to people has "authoritive"? |
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 05:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 158
Location: Alabama
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| The O.T.O. aside, one can hardly get around the fact (i.e. if one takes The Book of the Law to be as Crowley regarded it, as objectively-inspired scripture) that AL III:39 is a direct mandate to promulgate the Law... |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 05:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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the_real_simon_iff wrote: › zain wrote: › if there is anyone you should be taking issue with then it is me, for my initial post making comparisons between evangelicals and people pushing their issues (which has got nothing to do with Thelema) on to other people.
Well, Zain, part of the senseless OTO-bashing in this thread was of course invited by your equally senseless presumption that OTO members "push their issues on other people".
zain wrote: › I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this.
Anyway, I am sure that most people here understand your point quite good, but your trying to "prove" this point and to construct some sort of brainwashing intentions out of what is clearly meant and presented as information transfer, would be quite ridiculous, wasn't it presented exactly in a manner that most witch-hunts in history (in every sense of the word, not only in a "religious" context) were initiated: Take a few quotes totally out of context (or change some minor facts) to construct the existence of "dangerous practices" by a certain group you don't like. If you don't want to see OTO members spreading the word, just look away or spread the word yourself - good luck with your well-meant web-page of "the contradictory and subjective/personal aspects of Thelema" - or just shut up. But this OTO-bashing is really awful. You should know better - but it wouldn't suit your intentions of course.
Just out of fun I take a few words from you and just alter slightly some parts:
zain nearly wrote: › And why do people need persuading about the coherence of Safe Sex and AIDS? They dont. Leave them be. Do what thou wilt. If people are happy with what they have why do they need to be persuaded? Again it comes back to the parallel with the heathen free information freaks in humanintarian organisations who seek to push their own take on what the Pope already unmistakenly has labelled as right and wrong.
Love=Law
Lutz
Brilliant, Lutz, especially the analogy to resistance to AIDS education.
Zain's apparent bias with regard to the recent 'OTO controversy' is somewhat evident from his past posts to these forums:
zain wrote: › There seems to be a lot of people in the intros section for the google site who claim to be members of the OTO. So i presume its a Caliphate enclave?
"It should be stated of course ensurientchaos is discussing Caliphate OTO issues. The term "OTO" used in Caliphate issues can seem misleading." [THREAD LOCKED]
zain wrote: › After doing an extensive google search, i have found an untapped market. Why doesnt the Caliphate start producing tasteful OTO Lamen badges and pin lapels for Thelemites everywhere? If so it would be one of the few items that would sell like hot cakes to Thelemites across the planet. (Of course they would have to accept that non Caliphate members would were them has well. Not a bad thing)
I should repeat again that I have the highest respect for the work of Typhonian Thelema, for that of Kenneth Grant, Michael Staley and others in that field. I do note that Michael has not contributed to this thread, however. I am curious as to his opinion on the topic.
As for Zain, he apparently has great difficulty with the interface between subjective interpretation and objective application in relation to the message of Thelema. This is also evident in his aversion to attempts at associating the principles of Thelema to any social or political application, toward a more 'Thelema friendly' environment at the level of the temporal plane, to earthly life:
Tool93 wrote: › zain wrote: › Politics has no place in Thelema. And i dont think politics should be discussed on this site. There are tons of sites dedicated to poltics on the net. I just dont think its relevant here.
I agree Zain but at the same time would it not be a thing to ha[v]e freedom from threats of your True Will and living in poverty type things[.] Besides The Law of Thelema should be placed on every subject of your life?
I will go so far as to refrain from objecting to the truism that 'everything is ultimately subjective,' but to limit ourselves to this conclusion with regard to our activities is to defeat the purpose of our manifestation in the 'real world,' in the world of individuals upon Earth. It is at this level that "information transfer," as Lutz put it, is desperately needed. |
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 05:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Zain,
let's not overlook something important here:
Those who have chosen to "spread the word of Thelema" that feel comfortable discussing The Book of the Law--giving their own interpretation of those verses; confident that their interpretations are correct---
and those who promote Thelema by means other than that.
I have chosen not to discuss those verses, with anyone; nor to ever let anyone know what I think they mean or do not mean.
I might quote them now and then, in reference to something or other; but I would
never divulge my own personal interpretation of them to anyone, Thelemite,or non Thelemite.
I might perhaps by accident, have insinuated at an interpretation of one verse, but I would have made it far fetched enough to let people know I was joshing, by way of giving some sort of example to the futility of presenting any interpretation as absolute truth.
Therefore, if is my will to "spread" Thelema, I would do it by methods that exclude any form of written, or verbal--discussing of "the meaning" of The Book of the Law.
This would in no way compromise my promoting, or establishing Thelema in the world. It would actually mandate me to come up with methods that work!
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Aleisterion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 06:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 20, 2003
Posts: 158
Location: Alabama
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| Promulgation by the way is not the same as conversion. If someone chooses to go another direction, so be it. But I've known people on whom the Law grew gradually, who disliked it at first, but who over time (without any prodding other than the initial introduction to the Law) came to embrace the Law with a passion. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 28, 2008 - 06:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Aleisterion wrote: › Promulgation by the way is not the same as conversion. If someone chooses to go another direction, so be it. But I've known people on whom the Law grew gradually, who disliked it at first, but who over time (without any prodding other than the initial introduction to the Law) came to embrace the Law with a passion.
No one is contemplating "conversion," nor any other sort of coercion, in this thread, other than Zain. |
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