| From the Galleries |
1703 pictures in 26 albums
Body Art
O.T.O. Tattoo
Last Updated Picture:
'Chinese Dragons' Automatic Drawing by Chris Anthony Wills
|
|
| Statistics |
Site visits since 30 September 2003:
21,501,194
Yesterday's visits:
27,865
Registrations:
Today: 1
Yesterday: 4
Overall: 5407
Newest Members:
|
|
| Review Submissions |
Attention authors, publishers and retailers! Are you trying to market a newly-released Thelemic product? This site is viewed daily up to 20,000 times by some of the most influential Thelemites. If you'd like to bring your product to their attention, contact us now to arrange for a review to be placed on lashtal.com.
|
|
| Random Quote |
|
The common defect of all mystical systems previous to that of the Aeon whose Law is Thelema is that there has been no place for Laughter. But the sadness of the mournful Mother and the melancholy of the dying Man are swept in the limbo of the past by the confident smile of the immortal Child.
And there is no Vision more critical in the career of the Adept of Horus than the Universal Joke.
-- Aleister Crowley
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Robert_an_Keow |
|
 |
Post subject: Taking an oath in court
 Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 11:56 AM
|
|
Joined: Aug 23, 2006
Posts: 7
Status: Offline
|
|
Back in 2006 the Pagan Federation in the UK announced that the courts here would allow you to take an oath 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...by all that I hold sacred' instead of swearing by the bible, making a secular affirmation or whatever.
Counting myself a pagan (I realise that is a loose term but I at least fit a few of the definitions) my first reaction to this was to be quite pleased that, should I find myself in the dock, I would be allowed to make such an oath using CCXX instead of beginning my evidence with a lie merely to impress the court.
However, this was quickly dispelled by the thought that the oath remained absurd, how could I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when currently convinced that the truth canot be spoken? To take such an oath "by all that I hold sacred" would be to profane all that I hold sacred, in which case I might be better off using one of the standard oaths and perhaps profaning Christianity which, to judge by many of its adherents, is well used to it.
Sorry if this is old hat, and I hope not to find myself in court any day soon (fingers crossed  ), but I wonder how others square this dilemma. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
the_real_simon_iff |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 12:06 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 643
Location: Munick / Germany
Status: Offline
|
|
93!
Hmmm...
It would be pretty interesting to see what Crowley said when he faced court, if he had to swear at all...
To "answer" your question, I never thought of it since you do not have to swear on anything in a German court, you would never have to touch a Holy Book while swearing, but since Germans are free to use "so help me God" if they like to, I would think they could also use "Goddess" or "Gods" or other "divine entities".
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
ianrons |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 12:20 PM
|
|
Joined: Jul 02, 2004
Posts: 684
Location: U.K.
Status: Offline
|
|
It has for many years been acceptable to swear on books other than the Bible in court -- nothing to do with anything happening in 2006, though I don't have, offhand, reference to the relevant Act of Parliament that enshrines this. The Book of the Law has been used to testify in the UK courts. I don't know if you could tailor the oath more than that -- possibly you could, but I'm sure it would always have to come down to what you say -- telling the "truth". If you don't accept that this is a meaningful notion "in Malkuth" then you're probably stuck. But it could be interesting to do the research and see what you could get away with.
Like Lutz, I am also curious about what AC swore in court. I don't even know whether the relevant trial record is public, but it might be interesting to find out. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
OKontrair |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 02:05 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 18, 2004
Posts: 205
Status: Offline
|
|
In Crowley's diary for July 1934 he records that he went to the Old Bailey on the 18th and the case was adjourned until 2.00pm on the 19th. it was probably adjourned again because the case took place on the 24th and 25th of July. On the 25th crowley records that he had a violent attack of asthma just as he got into the box (dock) - "Hell — stopped my spilling beans properly."
This was reported in a newspaper as:
...........CROWLEY IN THE BOX.
Crowley was then called, taking the oath in a very deliberate fashion. He described himself as an author and poet, writing under the name of Aleister Crowley. ...........
This last is on this site in the articles section although the dates of the two articles look wrong to me.
Had he varied the oath I think this would probably have been noted. AC's other appearance in the criminal court was before a magistrate where I dont believe any spoken evidence was called for or oath necessary.
OK |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
gurugeorge |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 05:24 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 13, 2004
Posts: 208
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
Robert_an_Keow wrote: › Back in 2006 the Pagan Federation in the UK announced that the courts here would allow you to take an oath 'I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...by all that I hold sacred' instead of swearing by the bible, making a secular affirmation or whatever.
Counting myself a pagan (I realise that is a loose term but I at least fit a few of the definitions) my first reaction to this was to be quite pleased that, should I find myself in the dock, I would be allowed to make such an oath using CCXX instead of beginning my evidence with a lie merely to impress the court.
However, this was quickly dispelled by the thought that the oath remained absurd, how could I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, when currently convinced that the truth canot be spoken? To take such an oath "by all that I hold sacred" would be to profane all that I hold sacred, in which case I might be better off using one of the standard oaths and perhaps profaning Christianity which, to judge by many of its adherents, is well used to it.
Sorry if this is old hat, and I hope not to find myself in court any day soon (fingers crossed ), but I wonder how others square this dilemma.
Hmm, wrt the truth thing, I think the concept of "not mixing the planes" is important to remember with things like this. Court truth is not cosmic or epistemological truth, and it's not really all that problematic a concept. |
_________________
"To wake up is to wake the world up" - D.E. Harding
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Camlion |
|
|
Post subject: Re: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 01, 2008 - 05:36 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: Offline
|
|
gurugeorge wrote: ›
Hmm, wrt the truth thing, I think the concept of "not mixing the planes" is important to remember with things like this. Court truth is not cosmic or epistemological truth, and it's not really all that problematic a concept.
Yes, and any deviation from the norm may tend to prejudice the judge or jury, which may not be what one wants. Sorry, just being practical... |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Robert_an_Keow |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: Taking an oath in court
Posted: Aug 03, 2008 - 02:29 PM
|
|
Joined: Aug 23, 2006
Posts: 7
Status: Offline
|
|
I had wondered what Crowley did when he was in court but had no idea how to find out. The report quoted suggests the standard format – I think anything else would have been seized on – and this is what I would have expected. In Magick Without Tears he admitted skipping the Thelemic greetings and so on if “It might detract from my personal influence, and so actually harm the Work that I am trying to perform”.
I’m not surprised to learn that the use of other religious books than the Bible has been acceptable in UK courts for some time – it did strike me as odd that with large populations of Muslims and Hindus it would take the Pagan Federation to address this particular issue. Maybe it was the wording of the oath that they had a hand in – I think the legal system still struggles with the concept of a religion that is not one of the big three, or at least has a conventional view of a creator god. I’ve seen a report of someone complaining that they ran into problems in court with actually using this wording because the court wasn’t up to speed on the position.
With regard to “truth”, I’m afraid I have a job with identifying “the whole truth and nothing but the truth” on even a mundane level – so much depends on perspective and pre-conditioning. I think I’d have to attempt to insert a “try to” between “swear to” and “tell the truth” and see if I could get away with it. Unfortunately, people seem to prefer being lied to rather than to hear complicated or difficult truths.
The practical point about prejudicing the view of the court to one’s evidence is very pertinent. I like to think that the courts have moved on a bit since Crowley’s day (even though the newspapers haven’t) and that there can even be an advantage in being “out of step” in religious terms these days, in the UK at least, given the way they tie themselves up in knots over religious discrimination and other such politically correct notions.
Nevertheless, I think if I do find myself giving evidence on oath I will have to take a view on the individual case (my usual practise!) rather than setting myself a firm rule. This would involve balancing the escape clauses in Magick Without Tears against my own interpretations of Liber Al III 17 & 38 (not to mention my own predisposition to exhibitionism!) – fortunately something I am already well practiced in by having to do it a minimum of four times a day already!
Thanks to you all for contributing to the considerations in achieving that balance. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
in 1° 
: 
in 16° 
: Anno IVxvi 
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
