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The common defect of all mystical systems previous to that of the Aeon whose Law is Thelema is that there has been no place for Laughter. But the sadness of the mournful Mother and the melancholy of the dying Man are swept in the limbo of the past by the confident smile of the immortal Child.
And there is no Vision more critical in the career of the Adept of Horus than the Universal Joke.
-- Aleister Crowley
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LittleAlickGrewUp |
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Post subject: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
 Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 12:10 PM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: England.
Status: Offline
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On friday I gave a talk to my local Pagan group about Thelema, filled in some of the facts about Crowley, Rabelais, Nietzche, Book of the Law etc
And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?
Yes I know Liber Al says
"10. Let my servants be few & secret: they shall rule the many & the known."
But surely more people should know about it? What are the Thelemic organisations doing to spread the word? Surely if every man and woman is a star we can't keep this to ourselves?
Am I wrong in trying to tell people about this? If so, please can a "secret chief" (or O.T.O. official) let me know? If not, give me a charter or something.  |
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Camlion |
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Post subject: Re: Spreading the Thelemic Word?
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 07:31 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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LittleAlickGrewUp wrote: › On friday I gave a talk to my local Pagan group about Thelema, filled in some of the facts about Crowley, Rabelais, Nietzche, Book of the Law etc
And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?
Yeah, it's certainly a shame when the man who is probably the father of neo-paganism isn't recognized by his own children, but that is often the way with bastard children, pardon the expression. |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 08:52 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 155
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| Why do you want to evangelize and push Thelema on to people? Does that not sort of defeat the purpose of it? And is it not just repeating the mistakes of organised religion? |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 10:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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zain wrote: › Why do you want to evangelize and push Thelema on to people? Does that not sort of defeat the purpose of it? And is it not just repeating the mistakes of organised religion?
For some Thelemites, Thelema is an organized religion. Further, for some Thelemites, with each person they meet, it is the Law to give, for the Law is for all. This presumably while arguing not and converting not, and so on. |
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LittleAlickGrewUp |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 21, 2008 - 10:44 PM
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Joined: Mar 26, 2008
Posts: 28
Location: England.
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| I think there's a difference between letting people know Thelema exists and "pushing it on to people". |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 155
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| To a lot of independent thelemites they dont see it has their place to explain or sell Thelema on to anyone, and to do so is just arrogance. It also raises the question of why would you want people to know about Thelema. If they are happy with what they have, leave them be. Its not the job of Thelema to change the world. Look at some of the organisations that want to, like Scientology and evangelical Christian groups and you see how messed up in the head they become. |
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 601
Location: Munick / Germany
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Zain,
when someone is giving a talk on a specific theme, nobody is forced to attend and everybody's interested is invited I think. It is information. Of course a talk can also try to explain or sell something, but most people know that they are listening to the opinions of the lecturer.
I guess what LittleAlickGrewUp is wondering most about, is the fact, that once you started even a little "objective" research on AC and discover the huge influences he had on various great minds of his time and later on, on culture and esoterics and whatever, you sometimes wonder how anybody can never have heard of the man!
Well, that's what Lashtal.com is for (amongst other things) and I hope that a lot of Non-Thelemites visit this page.
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
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Te23 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:30 AM
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Joined: Jun 21, 2007
Posts: 23
Location: British Columbia Canada
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Come on.
If these people were really interested in understanding paganism, or the connected traditions they followed, they would know who Crowley was and at least know a little about Thelema. If they don't know these things then the question is rather: Are they worth wasting time on?
When I first started getting into all this stuff I could barely read a book on paganism/magick without seeing Crowley's name. That wasn't that long ago, so I can only conclude these people don't read.
Cheers!
-Te23 |
_________________
"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind," the forester said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. "Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."
-From Beyond the Black River, by Robert E. Howard
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DD |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 09:21 AM
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Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 17
Location: Eugene, Oregon, U.S.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
"And it hit me - hardly any of them have heard of this stuff. Why not?"
Wicca is only around 50 years old. Most pagans look back and see Gerald Gardner as the founding father, and don't see Crowley standing behind him in the shadows. From Gardner sprang the freedom and inspiration for most of the modern Pagan movement.
Crowley definately plays a major part in creating the modern witchcraft/wiccan/pagan movement. He is occasionaly mentioned in a few pagan books, but usually as a foot note and not the subject in a history chapter. Why? I would imagine that most modern pagan writers would not want a "Satanist" referenced in their books. Pagans usually distance themselves from the stigma of the Christian Satan, as this is what the Christians use as fodder against them.
"Are they worth wasting time on?"
That would be a matter of opinion. My answer is Yes, and I wouldn't consider my time being wasted.
I belong to an O.T.O. body that has been around since the early 1980's. For most of those years it has had a close relationship with the pagan community. Many of its members have come from this community. Many, in the Pagan community, have contributed to local O.T.O. events and help them be successful. This is not going to be the case with most O.T.O. bodies, but it has proved, at least in our area, to be a successful formula in bringing new people to the O.T.O. and Thelema.
LittleAlickGrewUp, please continue to educate people. Perhaps a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there in his chair, smoking his pipe, whispering to them the secrets of Magick and Thelema...
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the Law, Love under will. |
Last edited by DD on Jul 24, 2008 - 11:49 AM; edited 4 times in total
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 09:34 AM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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| DD why do people need to be "educated" on Thelema? I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this. No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt. Since no two interpretations of Thelema are the same, it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either. so i think your comment is irresponsible to say that its a positive thing "educate" people on Thelema. |
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the_real_simon_iff |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 10:45 AM
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Joined: Nov 07, 2003
Posts: 601
Location: Munick / Germany
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Zain,
although I am under the impression that the "individual point of view" on Thelema is one of your most important concerns, I think you are reading something into DD's post that isn't there. He clearly says "please continue to educate people." No educating on Thelema mentioned here, or is it? Educating people is an important task. And clearly in this case the word is used as "informing people". DD then goes on to say: "PERHAPS a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there..." What's wrong with that? This sounds wonderful, I think. Perhaps they find an interest in the old man, but perhaps they do not and perhaps they even consider paganism stained afterwards. Perhaps they sleep through the complete "lecture". I can see no danger of brainwashing people here. I would suggest that you don't let your obvious dislike of the OTO overshadow the impartiality. No belief system should be forced on anyone, you are right on that, and it might be even pretty fishy to "explain" Thelema, but as long as nobody is proposing this, you should not accuse anybody of doing that. Or so do I think....
Love=Law
Lutz |
_________________
"The Resistance to Change is intellectual Death, Insanity [...] the first clause in the Oath of the Black Brothers. The Law of Thelema is the Essence of Life, because of its perfect elasticity."
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DD |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 10:50 AM
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Joined: Nov 13, 2007
Posts: 17
Location: Eugene, Oregon, U.S.
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
zain
"No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt"
This tells a lot about you and your view on Thelema.
"it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either"
I, in fact was not implying that Thelema can be taught. This is simply your own beliefs being reflected back at you as you read other peoples words.
I merely encouraged LittleAlickGrewUp to continue talking about Crowley, Thelema, and the ties they have to Paganism. I don't believe that LittleAlickGrewUp is preaching what Thelema is or isn't (or is even qualified to do such).
I personally believe that we should be publicly talking about Crowley and Thelema. That we should be discussing the Book of the Law. That hearing other peoples ideas and interpretations will help people (including myself) find their own truths about Thelema. These beliefs (of mine) may or may not currently mesh with the Caliphate O.T.O.'s ideas on propagating Thelema.
I would agree with you that Thelema can't be taught, but to say no one has the right to talk about it is simply restrictive.
The last time I checked "No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt" was not listed on Liber OZ.
"The word of Sin is Restriction" AL 1-41. By declaring that "No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt" aren't you imposing your own restrictive view on Thelema? (and therefore forfeiting your own rights as listed in Liber OZ?)
"The Law is for all" AL 1-34 If we don't talk about Thelema and bring it to people's attention, do you think it would help Thelema? or would Thelema drift off in time, much like other ancient beliefs, and be forgotten?
And I just have to ask, What would Crowley do?  Be silent? or talk for hours on Thelema?
Is it irresponsible to talk to people about Thelema? I don't think so.
Does zain have the right to think it is irresponsible to talk to people about Thelema? By all means Yes!
With Love and Laughter,
DD
Love is the Law, Love under will. |
Last edited by DD on Jul 24, 2008 - 11:50 AM; edited 1 time in total
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bullshitdetector |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 12:05 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2008
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| I think one of the best ways to inform people of the existence of Thelema, and the legacy of Crowley and his works, is by pointing them in the direction of his books, which they can read, and make up their own minds about. I think this is especially important in regards to the book of the Law, which tends to read like a personal letter to whomever reads it. Other excellent books are Moonchild and Diary of a drug fiend. If anyone is 'put off' by the 'satanist' tag, they may be more willing to approach his fiction, which obviously still embodies Thelema. |
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Patriarch156 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 02:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 03, 2005
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DD wrote: › And I just have to ask, What would Crowley do? Be silent? or talk for hours on Thelema?
Crowley would probably do what he did last time it became a pressing matter for him, i.e. after attaining the grade Magus in the A.'.A.'.
"I have got my A.β.A.β. grade which [...] and that too, exactly at the time prophesied. [...] I must do my duty (vide Liber I) and that is to preach my Law.
Therefore this is the Word of Baphomet to all the members of the O.T.O. [THELEMA]. [...] One must take some very simple, very deep word which cuts at the heart of things. [...] I say [THELEMA].
Go on, therefore, preaching this and nothing else in season and out of season. You wonβt have to wait long for results."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, october 4. 1915 e.v.
Which of course led to him among other things mounting a campaign where he wanted promulgationary texts such as the Message of the Master Therion to "be sent out by tens of thousands."
He even had some specific work for the O.T.O. to do under this new model which became the Blue Equinox Model:
"I hope you are keeping up open propoganda work with great vigour. I think it would be a good plan to get the Lodge to work in some way or other every night at purely missionary work until you have caught a big fish. Nobody should rest until 1352 is the property of the Order."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, september 1916 e.v.
The reason for this change in the function of the Order from being a "training ground for the A.'.A.'." which according him represented "the only thing worth doing" was his initiation which made him realize that "the O.T.O. has a perfectly definite function in connection with the New Aeon. At a time like the present, when individual liberty is threatened in a way to which history offers no parallel, a strong and vigorous order is required to guard humanity. The A.'.A.'. does this, it is true, but in a manner so beyond even your present conceptions, that I think it only fair to give even the most commonplace of men a chance to co-operate actually."
-A.C. to Charles S. Jones, 1916 e.v.
So whatever modern Thelemites thinks is proper and good, it is clear what A.C. wanted Thelemites in general to do (cf. Duty and Liber CCC where it is identified with our True Will) and the O.T.O. in particular to do. |
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 04:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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93 zain,
zain wrote: › DD why do people need to be "educated" on Thelema? I am presuming you are a Calphate OTO member by your view on this. No organisation or person has a right to "educate" on what Thelema is or isnt. Since no two interpretations of Thelema are the same, it is obvious that Thelema is not a subject that people can be "taught" by a group or a single person. And for you to imply so, suggests you are not in any better postion to do so either. so i think your comment is irresponsible to say that its a positive thing "educate" people on Thelema.
Firstly, and I say this as a non-OTO member, this bias against OTO is an ongoing distraction to these forums. OTO is not the subject of this thread. OTO is certainly not alone in seeing the value of sharing the message of Thelema with those who might benefit from it.
Secondly, I personally see the message of Thelema as potentially being the difference between liberty and slavery for the average individual and, that being the case, I wonder how you can justify denying this benefit to the world at large?
93 93/93
Camlion |
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zain |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 05:59 PM
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Joined: Apr 04, 2007
Posts: 155
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Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best. Patriach 156 represents an organsiation that sees no reason to move beyond the word and ideas of Crowleys interpretation of Thelema. Thats his perogative. But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and at that an interpretation of Crowleys Thelema ,has the be all and end all to Thelema in general. Thats not education. And it would be a one sided "education"
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves. If the will to learn is not there in the first place then the ideas behind Thelema (in all its different forms) will be wasted on them. And going out to evangelise and sell Thelema as if its a "cure" is on very shaky ground. |
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Erwin |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:01 PM
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Joined: Feb 15, 2007
Posts: 314
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zain wrote: › i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best....
If Thelema is as "subjective" as you seem to think it is, how can any view of it be "distorted"? Seems to me that you're suggesting that each and every "interpretation" of Thelema is valid, except for all the views that you personally disapprove of which you label "distorted". You can't have it both ways.
zain wrote: › But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema...
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves.
"Learn about Thelema...for themselves" from where, exactly? Any book, class, whatever on the subject, is going to be someone presenting an interpretation of Thelema. Unless you consider sitting down and asking the universe to teach you directly to be a sensible option - which, for the avoidance of doubt, it isn't - then anybody learning about Thelema - "for themselves" or otherwise - is going to have to do it by encountering other people's interpretations of it. If nobody "has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema" then nobody is going to learn about it, ever.
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Camlion |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 349
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
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zain wrote: › Camilon i dont have a bias against the Caliphate OTO per say, but i have a bias against persons or groups which seek to put a one sided view or a distorted view of Thelema. Because of its subjective nature even the concept of "educating" people about Thelema is dubious at best. Patriach 156 represents an organsiation that sees no reason to move beyond the word and ideas of Crowleys interpretation of Thelema. Thats his perogative. But i am sceptical that he is suggsting that his organisation (or any organisation or person for that matter) has a right to present an interpretation of Thelema, and at that an interpretation of Crowleys Thelema ,has the be all and end all to Thelema in general. Thats not education. And it would be a one sided "education"
My final point on this is that if people want to understand and learn about Thelema then they should do it for themselves. If the will to learn is not there in the first place then the ideas behind Thelema (in all its different forms) will be wasted on them. And going out to evangelise and sell Thelema as if its a "cure" is on very shaky ground.
Of the subjective nature of Thelema, considered as the Will of the individual, there is no doubt, obviously. But the message of Thelema, as expressed in Liber AL, is less subjective. There are a plethora of ideas that any reasonable person would identify as clearly contradicting the message of Thelema. There may be some conflict of interpretation but, generally speaking, the message of Thelema bids the individual to behave in accord with his or her innate nature and inclination. Ideas which are diametrically opposed this are easily ruled out of any interpretation of the message of Thelema.
There is a great danger in the silly notion that the message of Thelema can mean absolutely anything that one wishes it mean. If that were true, it would mean nothing at all. It does mean something definitive and of great importance.
That Patriach 156 is a member of a given Thelemic organization is not immediately relevant to me. Within the context of these forums, I relate to him as one Thelemite to another, and I would suggest that you do the same. This forum is not, to the best of my knowledge, a formal conference between Thelemic Orders. Each participant represents themselves.
General education on the message of Thelema is far from impossible. Reference to foundational documents, for example, submitted to the inquirer for their own individual consideration is perfectly acceptable. The existence of alternative interpretations is not to be regarded with dread, either. This is a natural development as new ideas are formulated. The individual will decide, and we must trust in his or her ability to do so.
I am inclined to agree with you, personally, that investigation of the message of Thelema is probably best accomplished by virtue of independent inclination and inquiry. However, there is a demand for the various formulations of Thelemic groups, as evidenced by their very existence. Where there is a demand there will be a supply. Just as there is a demand for organized religion based on the message of Thelema among some people, and a demand for freedom from organized religion among others. Neither of these tendencies is necessarily 'wrong.'
I believe that the message of Thelema is, indeed, a cure for many common ills today, so I must disagree with you on this point. I would suggest that if you do not feel that the promulgation of the Law of Thelema has any value, that you personally refrain from engaging in it. This is your right, but you do not have the right to prevent others from doing so if they Will.
and to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. |
Last edited by Camlion on Jul 22, 2008 - 08:55 PM; edited 2 times in total
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jul 22, 2008 - 07:57 PM
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Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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DD wrote: ›
I belong to an O.T.O. body that has been around since the early 1980's. For most of those years it has had a close relationship with the pagan community. Many of its members have come from this community. Many, in the Pagan community, have contributed to local O.T.O. events and help them be successful. This is not going to be the case with most O.T.O. bodies, but it has proved, at least in our area, to be a successful formula in bringing new people to the O.T.O. and Thelema.
LittleAlickGrewUp, please continue to educate people. Perhaps a few of them will look deeper into their Pagan roots and find Aleister Crowley sitting there in his chair, smoking his pipe, whispering to them the secrets of Magick and Thelema...
I can easily think of 50-60 people (over the last 2 decades) from the Pagan Communities of Austin, San Antonio and Houston here in Texas who have joined the O.T.O. because of my efforts and the efforts of other Brothers and Sisters in our local and state-wide communities because of our volunteering and service to those communities, and another 30 (at least) up in Dallas.
Here, we have been fortunate enough to have an "umbrella organization" with a 501 (c)(3) Tax-Exempt Status, the Texas Council of Magickal Arts, that has had a number of Thelemites and/or O.T.O. members serve as Board Members (and one as Director). It is a pan-magickal & neopagan organization that's been around for almost 30 years. I helped found that organization's Guardians (Site Security & Medical Staff) 18 years ago, (about the time that their weekend event attendance went from 150 people to 600 to 800) and proudly remain an Elder and Advisor and Chief Guardian Emeritus in that community to this day. Our current Co-Chief Guardian is a 1st Degree Brother, and a 12+ year member of the C.M.A. Our Assistant Director, (while not a Thelemite or O.T.O. member) is one of my wife's and mine's two or three dozen-odd magickal students and mentoring subjects, and we've known her since she was age 15. We have mutual respect and recognition as Priest & Priestess from dozens of Circles, Covens and Pagan or Asatru Magickal Traditions around the State.
We've paid our dues and served our communties for almost 2 decades now.
What you've got to remember is that a lot of people are coming to whatever they can find, Pagan, Magickal, Wiccan, Asatru, New Age... and that the hinterlands are still 20 years (or more) behind us in the word getting out and around. My wife ran a 501 (c)(3) Pagan/alternative spirituality Community Center in Dallas, Texas for a decade (it closed last year), we had all sorts of cross-pollenation between the O.T.O. body there and that Community (much to the dismay of the local anti-O.T.O. Covenant of the Goddess contingent); public Gnostic Masses conducted there twice a month, lectures by Lon Milo Duquette, the marriage of their founder and C.E.O. to an O.T.O. Rose Croix initiate... and we *still* had to argue and persuade (every week, it sometimes seemed) someone or other who was fully convinced that Aleister Crowley was a *Satanist*, and Witches don't *believe* in Satan! So what are these Crowleyian Satanists doing around here, pushing their Black Masses?
Absolutely, keep educating people. Stick to the facts, there's no need to proseltize. Curiosity will get the better of them, and they'll want to know about "what books should I read?" and then "what's this O.T.O. you belong to?" The reason that a lot of people don't know about Uncle Al is that they are just beginning their path, even though they may be 30, 40, even 50, they're just beginning their path, Magickally. Or they've been in the Broom Closet in their respective small-towns, and only know what they've been told by the few magickal/pagan people they trusted. And somewhere they were told the old lie, that Uncle Al was evil, a Satanist, an animal sacrificer, and were never told the truth: that the so-called "Father of modern-day Wicca", Gerald B. Gardner, was one of Crowley's students, appearantly "borrowed" a lot of Crowley's material for his "Book of Shadows" and particularly his "Charge Of The Goddess", and that the bulk of what he taught as "Wicca" apparently comes from Thelema, the Order of the Golden Dawn, and Freemasonry. A lot of the "old guard" Trads still hide these facts from their young dedicants. For them, the control of such knowlege is power-- they know better, but they lie to their students to keep them from fraternizing with us. |
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in 5° 
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in 5° 
: Anno IVxvi 
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