| From the Galleries |
1703 pictures in 26 albums
Layla's Gallery
Death Rides the Camel of Initiation
Last Updated Picture:
'Chinese Dragons' Automatic Drawing by Chris Anthony Wills
|
|
| Statistics |
Site visits since 30 September 2003:
21,501,002
Yesterday's visits:
27,865
Registrations:
Today: 1
Yesterday: 4
Overall: 5407
Newest Members:
|
|
| Review Submissions |
Attention authors, publishers and retailers! Are you trying to market a newly-released Thelemic product? This site is viewed daily up to 20,000 times by some of the most influential Thelemites. If you'd like to bring your product to their attention, contact us now to arrange for a review to be placed on lashtal.com.
|
|
| Random Quote |
|
[...] when I say magical I don't mean illusions, I mean magic in the sense of Crowley magick. I have been meeting and having very informative exchanges with practising magicians in this country and in America. I treat the occult very seriously, in fact more and more seriously, and have found great insight into what I do from these people.
-- Clive Barker
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
hamsolo |
|
Post subject: Dion Fortune
 Posted: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:21 PM
|
|
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
Hi all, 93
This is partly in response to the Regardie thread - I know that Regardie made friends with Dion Fortune, who referred to him as being her EQUAL (I don't recall the exact words) and this alone IMO proves how superior Crowley was to Fortune - try explaining that to members of SIL/SOL!
However my specific question was that somebody once told me Dion Fortune had written letters to Crowley asking for his magickal advice and acknowledging him to be a great master. I was wondering if anyone else could verify this or had any additional info.
93 93/93
nick |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
 |
|
kuniggety |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 - 12:56 PM
|
|
Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 89
Location: Okinawa, JPN
Status: Offline
|
|
| I recall James Eshelman making the same comments on heruraha.net, of Dion Fortune holding Crowley in high regards. However, this was in private at the time and not something she was public about because of "image". |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
uranus |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 10, 2008 - 06:44 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 237
Status: Offline
|
|
| First, how does Fortune holding Doc as her equal equate to Crowley being superior? Secondly, yes, she was corresponding with Crowley and waiting for a day when she might be able to publicly express her support of him and his work. |
_________________
In case you can't figure it out, my comments are based on my experiences or learned from various teachers either right or wrong. I am not to be taken as an authority, if you assume such, that is you, not me.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
hamsolo |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 11, 2008 - 11:45 AM
|
|
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
Well I have nothing against Regardie, but could you imagine CROWLEY holding him to be his magickal equal? It sounds preposterous. Just my opinion of course.
93
nick |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Nataraj418 |
|
|
Post subject: equality
Posted: Sep 11, 2008 - 01:37 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Taos
Status: Offline
|
|
hamsolo wrote: › ...could you imagine CROWLEY holding him to be his magickal equal? It sounds preposterous.
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Secondly, we have the spiritual concept of the "advanced" practitioner being "humble" and recognizing (through their direct perception of the facts as presented by the universe) that they are less than others.
Imagine CROWLEY holding [anyone] as his equal? Ha! |
_________________
Nataraj418
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Alastrum |
|
|
Post subject: RE: equality
Posted: Sep 11, 2008 - 01:59 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 164
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
|
|
| Kenneth Grant was present on two occasions when Fortune visited Crowley. He mentions it in a couple of books, the most detailed being in "Quest for Dion Fortune" by Janine Chapman, Weiser 1993. Grant missed most of one conversation as he was busy doing some task Crowley had set him, but he was present when they were discussing the sacrifice of a black cock or something like that (I don't have the book in front of me, so am writing from memory). Crowley claimed that he and Fortune had a "secret understanding" and that she acknowledged his authority. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
alysa |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 11, 2008 - 02:16 PM
|
|
Joined: Jul 09, 2008
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
|
|
| On the contrary, having read John Symonds "The King of the Shadow Realm" and Regardies own "The Eye in the Triangle", it showed to me itself enormously cleer that Crowley looked enormously down upon Regardie, even from day one in Paris. Crowley also thought very little upon Regardies writing on the Qabalah "The Tree of Life". It probably also was Crowley who made the nasty writing concerning one "Israel Reguydy" that for many years had its bad effests upon the life of Israel Regardie. Till now I always was unable to find a writing that showed itself the obvious contrary to what I wrote here. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
uranus |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 11, 2008 - 10:21 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 237
Status: Offline
|
|
| I don't think anyone was questioning that Crowley held Regardie in low esteem. |
_________________
In case you can't figure it out, my comments are based on my experiences or learned from various teachers either right or wrong. I am not to be taken as an authority, if you assume such, that is you, not me.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
hamsolo |
|
|
Post subject: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 - 11:23 AM
|
|
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
[quote="Nataraj418"]
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Camlion |
|
|
Post subject: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 - 03:07 PM
|
|
Joined: Apr 23, 2004
Posts: 535
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Status: Offline
|
|
| [quote="hamsolo"] Nataraj418 wrote: ›
First we have the concept that "all men are created equal." Admittedly an American concept, but worth considering.
Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician.
'Each one is unique' is better suited to "being real," certainly, and any idea to the contrary causes nothing but trouble, here in America and elsewhere.
As for Crowley, he was a genius and he knew it; a quality that I would hesitate in ascribing to either Regardie or Fortune, not that they were without merit. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
alysa |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 12, 2008 - 04:27 PM
|
|
Joined: Jul 09, 2008
Posts: 47
Status: Offline
|
|
| Uranus, you are right, I also didn't thought that, but I certainly didn't want to waste any great words or capitals on the idea that Crowley would have holded Regardie as his magickal equel. Hamsolo, I am real, I think people are not created as equals, we certainly all have our own particular abilities, as to my opinion I hold the thought now for more than twenty years that Crowley was a great magician. Nataraj, I also think "all of us are equal" is'nt a Thelemic thought. Camlion, I wish to add that " each one is unique", might be a better term to use. I also think that Fortune and Regardie had their merits. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 05:56 PM
|
|
Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
If one reads the foreword to the book, The Mystical Qabalah--she, Miss Fortune,
writes: "As I have frequently referred to the authority of MacGregor Mathers and Aleister Crowley in matters of Qabalistic mysticism, it may be as well to explain my position in relation to these two writers."
She then goes on to say that she never knew either of those two gentlemen, etc.
I cannot say when The Mystical Qabalah was published, as mine has no date in it.
Later in the book, she disagrees with certain Chakra attributions as defined by AC.
I somewhere recollect, that in another of her books, she refers to AC as The Master Therion, or Therion--in reference to something or other. I cannot say for a fact that this is so, though I am almost certain of it. I do seem to recall it to be a positive sort of reference, and no thing at all negative. I will continue to look through what books I have by her for the precise words, if someone does not find it first.
All in all, she did indeed recognize him to be her superior concerning such things, and if she did not agree with his take on things, she did present his view to her readers (in The Mystical Qabalah).
Most of her "followers" I think, did, and do not recognize any such authority of his as she did, or would begrudgingly admit to it.
I've always enjoyed her books, especially her works of fiction based upon things "occult".
A likable Lady indeed!
Tried to contact her a while back on the astral, and oddly enough, the very next day the headlines for the paper read: Dame fortune frowns on New Orleans!
Love is the law, love under will. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
uranus |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 10:46 PM
|
|
Joined: Oct 12, 2005
Posts: 237
Status: Offline
|
|
| The Mystical Qabalah was originally serialized in the Occult Review I believe and then collected for the book. This was in 1936 I believe as well. |
_________________
In case you can't figure it out, my comments are based on my experiences or learned from various teachers either right or wrong. I am not to be taken as an authority, if you assume such, that is you, not me.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
hamsolo |
|
|
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 - 12:24 PM
|
|
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › I somewhere recollect, that in another of her books, she refers to AC as The Master Therion, or Therion
Yes she also has a story (don't recall which one) in which a man teaches himself magick after finding a book by "somebody who spells magic with a "k" at the end".
On the SOL website, Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki has a huge "recommended reading" list by which contains nothing whatsoever by Crowley, but includes just about everything by herself, Dion Fortune and W.E.Butler.
http://www.servantsofthelight.org/knowl ... ction.html |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
sonofthestar@Gmail.com |
|
|
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 - 02:44 PM
|
|
Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 280
Location: The United States of America
Status: Offline
|
|
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Hello Hamsolo!
In a field rife with self aggrandizement (not always a bad thing)--Miss Fortune had no problems giving people credit where credit was due.
From the same book, The Mystical Qabalah:
"In these pages it is the system given by Crowley of which I shall avail myself to supplement the points upon which MacGregor Mathers, Wynn Westcott, and A. E. Waite, the principal modern authorities upon the Qabalah, are silent."
Concerning Crowley's work developed as 777, of corresponding and attributing many of the Gods, Angels, Animals, etc in their relation to the Tree, she writes:
"This has been done tentatively by Crowley, and is, I fancy, original work and not derived from Mathers. Its implications are not altogether clear to me, and I doubt if I could subscribe to all of them. An immensely wide range of scholarship is necessary for the satisfactory accomplishment of this branch, a range of scholarship which I do not possess."
This woman certainly does not lack for integrity.
Nor was she to be swayed by the vilification of AC, and would not back down or cower in her obvious (though not trumpet blaring) support for him.
Alan Richardson, the writer of the book, The Magical Life of Dion Fortune Priestess of the 20th Century, seems to have a problem with this support of hers for AC, in that he has to take a personal swipe at Therion ever so often, yet not go so far as he would like to, due to that very apparent acknowledging support of Violet Firth (Dion Fortune) for Therion.
Despite Richardson's noticeable wrestling with his problem--that the subject of his book had no real problems with AC, --it's still a great book worth reading.
Love is the law, love under will. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
Nataraj418 |
|
|
Post subject: Re: equality
Posted: Sep 16, 2008 - 02:46 PM
|
|
Joined: Dec 14, 2007
Posts: 74
Location: Taos
Status: Offline
|
|
hamsolo wrote: › Let's be real - all men are NOT created equal. We all have different abilities. Some are great at doing certain things. Others are not. I think most of us here agree that Crowley was a great magician. Yes, of course all men are unequal. The term "all men are created equal" is an American concept that should include the suffix, "under the Law!" (And even that is democratic, wishful thinking - The last time I looked I saw that the mundane Halls of Justice were leaning towards those who had more bucks in the bank).
I suggested this Equality as a "consideration," but placed my hopes too high and failed to cite the level of consciousness involved. That is to say, when one is in an elevated state of consciousness, there is no difference among things and (even) people. The retarded sorcerer is seen as equal to the mighty adept. Not equal in terms of ability, but equal in terms of having a place in the scheme of things and deserving of equal respect.
So if Crowley "looked down" or "despised" or "felt superior" to Fortune or Regardie, then he simply wasn't operating (at that moment of condescension) in this posited, elevated, higher level of consciousness.
Yes, we probably all (well, most - as you say) agree that Crowley was a great magician. It has been written that there were only two people who ever escaped from his denunciatory attacks: Alan Bennett and Oscar Eckenstein (surely, there must have been others, but I don't know who they might be). So if he felt the need to grind down everyone else, what does that tell us about his everyday level of consciousness. One only has to read the Crowley communications in Martin Starr's "The Unknown God" to see where his (AC's) personality was in ordinary circumstances. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
N.C.Bishop-Culpeper |
|
|
Post subject: Dion Fortune
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 - 10:17 AM
|
|
Joined: Jun 26, 2006
Posts: 33
Status: Offline
|
|
Hi.
The bit about 'volumes on Magic spelt with a K' is in her novel "The Goat Foot God"
Dion Fortune considered "Magick in theory and Practice" an important work. In her periodical 'The Inner Light' of March 1933, in the 'Inner Light book service' under special offers, she has this to say;
'Magick' by 'The Master Therion', ( Aleister Crowley ) privately published on the Continent in four volumes at two guineas we can offer at 15/-. This is the most important occult publication of the century, and in it is reprinted the author's famous '777' a set of tables of magical correspondences of all systems. This alone commands at least two guineas on the second-hand market and only turns up at rare intervals. Like all this author's works, 'Magick' will go to a high price when the edition is exhausted. and those who wish to obtain a copy should loose no time in doing so.
Nick. |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
hamsolo |
|
|
Post subject:
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 - 11:43 AM
|
|
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: London
Status: Offline
|
|
Thanks everyone for this great info. I did not realise how publicly pro-Crowley Dion Fortune actually was.
It is also significant that Gareth Knight, in his "practical guide to qabalistic symbolism", proclaims that Crowley was right about switching the Tarot cards The Emperor and the Star. Which suggests this may have been, at least at one time, adopted by SIL (any SIL members here..?) |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
in 1° 
: 
in 16° 
: Anno IVxvi 
FAQ
Search
Register
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
