Post subject: Crowley's Last Will and Testament Posted: Sep 10, 2008 - 04:45 PM
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ianrons wrote: › I didn't say Grant is "the" enemy of Crowley. I said that his writings and his actions showed him to be "an" enemy of Crowley. If you'd opposed AC's last will and testament then I might have said the same about you, but you haven't.
Nice point about the Last Will and Testament, buddie.
I have heard say that Crowley died an undischarged bankrupt, and that his copyrights were the property of the Official Receiver. In which case, leaving his copyrights to anyone at all might be kinda dumb, huh?
Hell, I wouldn't have thought that his Last Will and Testament was able to be implemented in this respect. Hardly needed anyone to oppose it.
ianrons wrote: › Grant is fundamentally an enemy of Crowley, in his writings as well as his attempts to grasp Crowley's literary and magickal estate by proxy litigation and other less savoury means.
Whilst I'm happy to answer your particular comment, my criticism is a lot broader than the legal point that you raise. However, you do make a valid point (of which I am well aware), that AC was an undischarged bankrupt and so was not in a position to bequeath copyrights to OTO in his will. Of course, Grant didn't mention this when he effectively relied on AC's will to assert control of copyrights by falsely claiming to be the head of the OTO (he may have been unaware of it). Therefore your point, though valid, is entirely specious: Grant did oppose AC's will, believing -- or at least asserting -- it to be valid.
Besides this simple refutation of what you imply in your post, we can look at it in a different way. That is: AC's last will and testament should have been respected, regardless of legal difficulties, as a plain statement of AC's wishes. This may sound quite pompous, but AC's will was, and has been, respected by Germer and his successors in OTO, along with (importantly) the separate and financially draining obligation imposed by Crowley of Aleister Ataturk's welfare and upbringing (which they could conveniently have ignored), and despite continuous opposition from Grant extending over many decades.
However, I don't think this point about AC's legal will, copyrights, control of OTO, etc., ought to be taken in isolation from the vast philosophical gulf between AC and Grant in their respective writings, which Grant's Atlantis/Alien UFO/Creationism-believing followers don't seem to appreciate, even when it's pointed out to them in the plainest possible terms. But it's all to Crowley's credit; as Swift put it:
When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.
Kick Me Thesis. This is played by men whose social manner is equivalent to wearing a sign that reads "Please Don't Kick Me." The temptation is almost irresistible, and when the natural result follows, White cries piteously, "But the sign says 'don't kick me.'" Then he adds incredulously, "Why does this always happen to me?" [etc.]
-- Eric Berne, "Games People Play"
I'll resist disobeying the sign hung over your own post as I think this thread isn't destined to go anywhere terribly productive. I will comment, however, that the parodic sneerings on ANY front don't really open the door to serious, interesting and mutually challenging discussion of matters relative to the "Legacy" of AC, chief of which is the engagement with existence known as "Thelema" in its multitude of manifestations.
I don't need to state my position as an ardent admirer of Grant as well as one whose spiritual path has been significantly impacted and infused with his writings. Never the less, I'm neither a "follower" nor "believer" and such lumpage isn't going to bring out anything worthwhile in a discussion.
Regardless of different perspectives, how about a little mutual respect for the people working their Wills in their own way? This is not at all some appeal for "agreement" but rather a better approach to generating some worthy dialogue.
Personally, I'd just as soon meet you all over on the Jane Wolfe thread once I get a copy of her diaries to reference!
I certainly for one day in my life wish to start with the writings of mr. Grant. I think he and his wife are certainly worth the admiration they are enyoing now on for so many years, even decades. I think it's of the greatest importance to all of us to try and fullfil our own True Wills, and that for that purpose it is important that there always and at any times will be at our disposals kinds of supplies for fulfilling that need. I think it's also important that one never should be a follower or a believer of anyone or anything if one has not read already enough of the writings of that anyone or about that anything to making a good opinion of that anyone or anything. Than the question arises with me, when should one ever has done enough of the reading? Kidneyhawk, that last one wasn't certainly meant on you. I am also looking forward for the Jane Wolfe Writings.
Alastrum
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 01:04 AM
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"I believe one has to read the whole of Grant’s major works to get a sense of his purpose as a systematic philosopher. Like his 19th Century counterpart, Gerald Massey, the discarded wisdom of the ages, both east and west, is again put to use; Grant recycles ideas and refits them to his real science of the universe, which is unconstrained by the limits of academic knowledge. As his longtime colleague, the Rev. Michael P. Bertiaux, has observed, his philosophical principles derived from cultic mysticism are validated by the contemporary experiences of hysteria, the artistic insights of Surrealism, automatic writing, scientific intuition, the records of magicians of various stripes, and the deepest humanitarianism. All this comes at a price. Studying Grant is not a sweatless egalitarian journey for all and sundry. If we don’t apply ourselves to understand his work, we have only ourselves to blame if we cannot perceive his vision. " Martin P. Starr.
kidneyhawk
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 02:05 AM
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I can only applaud that quote from Mr. Starr.
Utterly perfect.
_________________ "Embrace Reality by Imagination." -Austin Osman Spare
kidneyhawk
Post subject: RE: Re: RE: Crowley Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 02:21 AM
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Quote: ›
I'm looking forward to seeing how much of the material in the diaries hasn't already been published in the Red Flame series
I've heard many good things about the Red Flame series but regrettably I don't own any of the volumes. This will make almost ALL of the material new to me and as Lulu just sent me an email saying the book has been shipped, I'm very much looking forward to delving into it. Cefalu was a very interesting and controversial time with mixed "reviews." Leah left the "social experiment" rather shattered and Bennett ended his own Cefalu diary declaring that "I can now say with confidence that A.C. is not right; he has not got the right thing." Wolfe, as I understand, found a more positive outcome to that time and I am very interested in reading of how she developed during those days.
As we banter a bit re: Grant, Regardie and others, I think it's worth considering that all of those people who encountered and followed after Crowley are something of a testimony to his magic and philosophy in action. I am certainly of the opinion that AC did not always handle his personal relationships well and people were not always blessed to be in proximity of the Beast. On the other hand, there were those who met with his difficult personality and took from it something of great value. Hence Grant's quoting of AC at the begining of "Remembering AC," where he speaks of working on Gold with acid.
"Young Grant" certainly tasted some of the "acid," as that book shows and he continued on through the rest of his life as a Thelemite, amongst other things. I am looking forward to Wolfe's own insights and experiences in this respect very much.
lashtal
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: RE: Crowley Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 11:49 AM
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Alastrum wrote: › "Like his 19th Century counterpart, Gerald Massey
True, very true...
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Post subject:Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 06:31 PM
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Though not familiar with Grant and his work, from what I do know he appears to be more an opposer than an enemy. Taking on a current in opposition in order to unite the divided. The depth of his success, to me, lays unknown.
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Tiger
Post subject:Posted: Sep 13, 2008 - 09:25 PM
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Quote: › "The depth of his success, to me, lays unknown.
While Allen Bennet brought Buddhism to the west, Grant opens the world to Thelema; freedom; to do your will, and produces a visionary transmission.
I Swear upon the Bible though the Bible tells me Swearing is a Sin Your Honour.
themuhler
Post subject: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 05:01 AM
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I think that Old Crak Ho Crowley shoulda left everything to Lulu Astarte Panthea. Then me and my mama and brother and sisters would be Crowley rich, like it should be, cause he my grandpa! She was the only blood line he ever had was worth sqaut-talk-a ralkie. Lulu would have gived all the Beast Bucks to poor people who she feels sorry for because she grew up so poor and Beastly in Cefalu, amid all that shifless Crowley Crap. So much for Crowley! He fucked that up with everything else he ever touched or saw. Go Crowley! Go Crowley! :D :wink: :twisted: 8)
Post subject: RE: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 05:35 AM
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It's always bartime somewhere.
93
kidneyhawk
Post subject: RE: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 05:58 AM
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Quote: ›
Then me and my mama and brother and sisters would be Crowley rich
Didn't he die pretty much in destitution?
Quote: ›
He fucked that up with everything else he ever touched or saw
That's your estimate of his life's work?
I can appreciate the rather undisputed fact that Crowley was not really good in terms of basic human relationships. He could be very charming, enticing and alluring. A lot of people loved him-and got shafted in return. But the man's dead. What he left behind, I think, is more than a legacy of "fuck ups." Otherwise, this very site would not exist.
My own take on life is, I am sure, very different from his. I'd like to think that I might be a better parent (and who knows? Maybe a GRANDparent) than he was in his life. And without any sarcasm, I am sorry that
Quote: ›
grandpa
didn't rise to the occasion. Regardless, he was more than the egotistical ass that any of us could pigeon-hole him as. I think one incredible example of this view is found in Regardie's Eye In The Triangle. Have you read this? Not only is it an informative "biography" but reflects Regardie's own "getting shit on" by AC. A lesser person could have walked away broken. Regardie, instead, serparates the Lead from the Gold-and, in some ways, ends up being the "bigger person" in the end. He also performs a "service" for Crowley far beyond his days as the Beast's "secretary." He calls attention to all those things AC did NOT "fuck up," the very things that make him such a significant figure in modern thought and life.
Horemakhet
Post subject:Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 04:58 PM
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I own the 'Eye In The Triangle'. You are right to say that the author tried to convey his love for AC; but I read his account as a 'backhanded compliment'.~~~ As for Leah, who can really say? - We have read her diary, & it does not end well. We also know that she lived the rest of her life scarred from the experience. Yet, she was also his scribe. He dictated his 'Confessions' to her. I am sure that the new edition will credit her properly. I hope so.
zardoz
Post subject: Re: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 05:19 PM
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themuhler wrote: › I think that Old Crak Ho Crowley shoulda left everything to Lulu Astarte Panthea. Then me and my mama and brother and sisters would be Crowley rich, like it should be, cause he my grandpa! She was the only blood line he ever had was worth sqaut-talk-a ralkie. Lulu would have gived all the Beast Bucks to poor people who she feels sorry for because she grew up so poor and Beastly in Cefalu, amid all that shifless Crowley Crap. So much for Crowley! He fucked that up with everything else he ever touched or saw. Go Crowley! Go Crowley!
This reads to me as a satirical caricature of anti-Crowley sentiments and opinions. Opinions are very subjective and are not required to be factually accurate or even consistent.
Horemakhet wrote: › I own the 'Eye In The Triangle'. You are right to say that the author tried to convey his love for AC; but I read his account as a 'backhanded compliment'.~~~
Hard to say. It seems that so much of Regardie's literary career involved editing and publishing Aleister Crowley 30-50 years after the old man fired him as his secretary, that it's hard not accuse him of riding his coat-tails.
themuhler
Post subject:Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 08:57 PM
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[quote="Horemakhet"]I own the 'Eye In The Triangle'.
"I own Fenway Park."
Yeah I read the book and my sister met him. No biggie. More Hooka Ma Jooka. Nice man evidently. Totally enthralled with a life of Hooka Ma Jooka.
Post subject: Re: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:14 PM
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OK so Crowley wasn't a Crak Ho he was a Smak Ho. Fuck! What a stickler you are! The current value of all original Crowley-alia and the Book of the Law alone will take care of Crowley's blood line forever. Instead, decisions have been made to keep that value for other entities. No hard feelings actually, I just like to think how nice it would be to be quasi-idly comfortable while Beastly Gramps did his familial duty to his surviving child, Lulu Astarte Panthea. As far as blood line value, ours survived and the rest got dusted 'cept for some dude in England who's not talkin' and is some sort of moderate blood. So genetically we win.
If you wanna argue "shifless Crowley Crap in Cefalu" you ain' got much territory to stand on. I got special access to the one living witness who is it's star product. Between the Baron, Beast, and the rest of those wack jobs who just discovered sex, it was a nightmare if you look at how the culture treated it's children. Not that the dead one's could have been avoided or were the fault of neglect, but the living were wounded sufficiently that they could, at times, envy the dead offspring of that Crazy Cult Cuckoo Skank Prank Festival! "Bring on the drugs and whores and fuck the children! Not "FUCK" them you idiots, I meant "ignore" them!......oh well, too late, what the hayell!"
So the opinions of witnesses (I've conducted two with Ninette as well) are better opinions than Hooka Ma Jooka beleiver opinions anywhere.
Oh yeah, what other art form would you use to portray Beastly Gramps? He's lucky to get off with satire.
Post subject: Re: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:17 PM
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Posts: 385
themuhler wrote: › Lulu would have gived all the Beast Bucks to poor people who she feels sorry for because she grew up so poor and Beastly in Cefalu, amid all that shifless Crowley Crap. So much for Crowley! He fucked that up with everything else he ever touched or saw.
I would imagine people's fascination with your grandfather must seem rather surreal to you. I had a friend whose single parent mother became involved with Osho in the 70s so the family grew up on the ashram. They eventually ended up in Berkeley. I remember all he ever wanted was a normal life with structure and routine.
themuhler
Post subject:Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:18 PM
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that it's hard not accuse him of riding his coat-tails.[/quote]
Of course he was ridiing his coat tails! He was trying to make ten cents on Hooka Ma Jooka! An Gramps was the acknowledged Master of Hooka Ma Jooka HoShat that ever lived, so Yeehaw!
Post subject: Re: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:23 PM
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I would imagine people's fascination with your grandfather must seem rather surreal to you.
I think Gramps deserves a lot of credit for his powers of mind when he had one, and his exploits and achievements are appropriately legend. However, that "I'm God" cult shit is so passe, now that AC and Hubbard and the thousands of others who grabbed on for the ride into Armageddon is boring. Armageddon was yesterday for a lot of people. And every day before it. I'm fascinated too.
This is amazing, you're like the crazy-eyed witness in a film noir (don't get bumped off in the next scene, btw)! Unfortunately there's probably nothing you can tell us that we don't already know unless there's some level of degradation that we hadn't already dreamed of...
Last edited by ianrons on Feb 04, 2010 - 09:27 PM; edited 1 time in total
themuhler
Post subject:Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:27 PM
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And it might have been you, has said this before! Thanks, I intend to along with some other Hooka Ma Jooka that requires exorcism.
Post subject: Re: RE: Re: Show Us Da Moneys! Posted: Feb 04, 2010 - 09:32 PM
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Believe me there are a triple truck load o shit none of us have dreamed of. You seem blithe on degradation of children. Take it easy baby.... Well let the readers sort out who crqzy-eyed! Whoooooo! Craaaazzzzeeeee!
themuhler wrote: › Believe me there are a triple truck load o shit none of us have dreamed of. You seem blithe on degradation of children. Take it easy baby.... Well let the readers sort out who crqzy-eyed! Whoooooo! Craaaazzzzeeeee!
Ahahaha... you think I don't know? I'm a veritable Bogie in all this... 'sno joke, babeeee!!!
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unless there's some level of degradation that we hadn't already dreamed of...