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Walterfive |
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 Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 01:49 PM
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PropriaDeus93 wrote: ›
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life.
amiright?
This has to do with Dharma, and it is my opinion that as Magicians and Illumini we tear all of that down when we rend the Veil of Paroketh. For those of the K.E.W. the symbology is obvious. |
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Boris |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 01:55 PM
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PropriaDeus93 wrote: ›
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life
Havent your guru taught you to coincide"free will" with "destiny" yet? |
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I like to take I like to feel wanted.
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MichaelStaley |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 02:42 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › For those of the K.E.W. the symbology is obvious.
Now you'll have everybody queuing for the K.E.W., won't you . . . |
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"It's all in the egg".
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Walterfive |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 03:31 PM
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More likely I'll have them pulling out their PDF's of Fernee's "Rituals & Sex Magick of the O.T.O"...
*sigh*... |
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lashtal |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 04:01 PM
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Walterfive wrote: › More likely I'll have them pulling out their PDF's of Fernee's "Rituals & Sex Magick of the O.T.O"...
Naylor, not Fernee, surely? |
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Walterfive |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 04:15 PM
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| Ooops, my bad. Fernee was the publisher or distributor or something, IIRC. |
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lashtal |
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Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 07:05 PM
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| He stocked it in his bookshop. |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Posted: Dec 31, 2008 - 01:41 PM
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@Boris:
I don't have one, that's kind of one of the reasons why I registered myself here.
I don't know any other people around here interested in Thelema. |
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sonofthestar |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 06:45 AM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
So far as animals go, and coming from an "animal loving fanatic" such as myself---this is hard for me to write, but I must---
I cannot say that they are "Stars" in any such way as Men and Women are.
Would this mean that they deserve any less respect, protection, caring for---
and Stewardship from Us? No! It means no such thing.
Nor does "not being Stars"---such as Man, and Women is, make them any less
unique, grand, and "spiritually" special or significant.
There are those of them, that are so Magickal, and others so evolved---
to levels of beauty, feeling,
understanding---and yes--Emotion----that they surpass many members of our fellow species lacking for such treasures, as feeling, understanding, and emotion,
--which supposedly makes for "higher" being.
Do they have the potential, and possibility of becoming---through
reincarnation---Men and Women---some day? Who can say no, and prove it?
Who can say yes, and prove it? We have the right to think what we will concerning these possibilities.
And who is to say--if they believe in reincarnation, or have experienced it for themselves,
that not being Stars--in the way Men and Women are,
--prevents certain special animals from "returning"
or reincarnating?
How would they do it? Through Love of course!
That would be the fuel to bring them home again.
Such love, being Sufficient material of the mental, physical, and spiritual kind---generated on the Earth Plane whilst they are with us--
--to guarantee re-manifestation of those prior generating origins of such love:
be it from their own singular efforts---or "willed" through our own.
So not Stars, as Liber AL reveals, or Liber OZ describes Man and Woman:
But nevertheless, manifested from that same source
of Light, Life, Liberty, and Love
as Those Starry Selves---who Will, and wish them the best;
doing all in our endeavored power to guarantee their survival on Earth,
and their right to Live,
Free from the abuse and suffering imposed upon them
by those who should know better.
Love is the law, love under will. |
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Poelzig |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 12:44 PM
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| Regarding humans as some kind of special "spiritual" presence on earth, some how better than other animals or above nature, yet another instance of Crowley being a replay of the desert plague religions, and yet another reason why I'll never be a "Thelemite." |
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MichaelStaley |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 02:00 PM
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sonofthestar@Gmail.com wrote: › So far as animals go, and coming from an "animal loving fanatic" such as myself---this is hard for me to write, but I must--- I cannot say that they are "Stars" in any such way as Men and Women are.
I'm with Poelzig on this one. As far as I am concerned, human beings are amongst a myriad forms through which the life-force manifests; "all this is Brahma". I don't think that the sentence "Every man and every woman is a star" precludes the starry nature being more widespread.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
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sonofthestar |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 05:11 PM
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Happy new year to all!
Poelzig and Michael,
At this present time, the main organ of our experiencing---that which informs us---through our living selves, about life--
--are humanoid forms--that which we deem to call homosapiens, or Man, meaning man and woman.
It is through certain "advantages"---as proven by our "science" that we
as "humans" have come to bring forth the comfort of civilizations----and all that civilization entails---such as music, art, literature, medical cures, and protection from the harsher aspects of nature.
We have not as a species, mastered ourselves---yet.
That is where the path of initiation comes in, for those who have the vision to
see the potential in "Man".
The ills we suffer, are there-- for this fact that we have come so far; but having not yet as a species mastered itself---have so far-- still to go.
We have encountered individual men and women at their best, and the fruit of their magick as fully potentialized human beings---but we have yet to see humankind itself
reach this stage.
Some from amongst our species, saw the Gold that man is destined to become, rather than the base metal which the slave god religions proclaim he is forever damned to be---unless he sacrifices the very core of self that makes for man:
his will.
Those having worked for the welfare of the human species, from within the framework of the slave gods--have done so imperfectly.
Those having worked for "our" welfare from outside such faulty framework,
have fared better for us.
One kind offers the human species perpetual ignorance and slavery;
The other--such as Thelema, offers freedom from all which would enslave it.
It is this animal called man, which we are---from which we work The Great Work---by which we realize our divinity, but always unto Nuit!
We shall rectify the wrongs inherent as the side effect of our striving:
As human beings--we shall master ourselves----however long it must take us;
but the rewards of that mastering, will indeed be the blessing unto all.
As it is proclaimed in Liber VII
O all ye toads and cats, rejoice! Ye slimy things, come
hither!
Dance, dance to the Lord our God!
He is he! He is he! He is he!
Love is the law, love under will. |
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zardoz |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 07:00 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › Regarding humans as some kind of special "spiritual" presence on earth, some how better than other animals or above nature, yet another instance of Crowley being a replay of the desert plague religions, and yet another reason why I'll never be a "Thelemite."
Where does Crowley say or imply this? |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 07:57 PM
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zardoz wrote: ›
Where does Crowley say or imply this?
http://www.hermetic.com/crowley/aba/chap11.html
The second method sounds very easy and amusing. You take some organism already existing, which happens to be suitable to your purpose. You drive out the magical being which inhabits it, and take possession. To do this by force is neither easy nor justifiable, because the magical being of the other was incarnated in accordance with its Will. And "... thou hast no right but to do thy will." One should hardly strain this sentence to make one's own will include the will to upset somebody else's will!
Yet it might happen that the Will of the other being was to invite the Magician to indwell its instrument.
Moreover, it is extremely difficult thus to expatriate another magical being; for though, unless it is a complete microcosm like a human being, it cannot be called a star, it is a little bit of a star, and part of the body of Nuit.
But there is no call for all this frightfulness. There is no need to knock the girl down, unless she refuses to do what you want, and she will always comply if you say a few nice things to her.
Especially on the subject of the Wand or the Disk.
You can always use the body inhabited by an elemental, such as an eagle, hare, wolf, or any convenient animal, by making a very simple compact. You take over the responsibility for the animal, thus building it up into your own magical hierarchy. This represents a tremendous gain to the animal.
This is the magical aspect of eating animal food, and its justification, or rather the reconciliation of the apparent contradiction between the carnivorous and humanitarian elements in the nature of "Homo Sapiens".
It completely fulfils its ambition by an alliance of this extremely intimate sort with a Star. The magician, on the other hand, is able to transform and retransform himself in a thousand ways by accepting a retinue of such adherents. In this way the projection of the "astral" or Body of Light may be made absolutely tangible and practical. At the same time, the magician must realise that in undertaking the Karma of any elemental, he is assuming a very serious responsibility. The bond which unites him with that elemental is love; and, though it is only a small part of the outfit of a magician, it is the whole of the outfit of the elemental. He will, therefore, suffer intensely in case of any error or misfortune occurring to his protegee. This feeling is rather peculiar. It is quite instinctive with the best men. They hear of the destruction of a city of a few thousand inhabitants with entire callousness, but then they hear of a dog having hurt its paw, they feel Weltschmertz acutely. |
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Poelzig |
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Posted: Jan 01, 2009 - 08:04 PM
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Los |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 10:48 AM
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93, Poelzig,
Interesting Crowley passage you've posted -- made even more so by the amusing piece of misogyny he slipped in there. My, it's almost as if the old guy wants us to dislike him so that we don't make silly mistakes like thinking he's infallible or the ultimate authority on Thelema or anything like that....
It should be noted that just because Crowley says something, it doesn't mean that one has to accept it to be a Thelemite. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that if you aren't questioning things Crowley says, you are probably not a Thelemite (or at least not a very good one).
Keep in mind that Crowley is operating out of a tradition that sees man as the "measure of all things," the microcosm in a way that nothing else in nature is. You're right that this view considers humans a "special 'spiritual' presence on the earth," and while it might be useful (or even necessary) for us to think like this from time to time, it may not fit with our current understanding of the universe. Again, I would consider the "microcosm" idea, like the "star" image, to be a metaphor that is appropriate in some contexts, but does not need to be taken as a metaphysical fact (an oxymoron if ever there was one).
Speaking of which, if this topic is merely a discussion of "do all dogs go to heaven?" (or cats, as it were), I would submit that metaphysics is the real marker of a "desert plague religion" (nice phrase!). I think it would be a mistake to take the poetic image of the star and try to map it onto dubious metaphysical ideas like "the soul." No one knows what happens after we die, but there's no actual evidence of a spirit or soul separate from the material world (and quite a bit to suggest that consciousness is tied to brain chemistry). Metaphysical speculations are useless.
93, 93/93
P.S. I apologize for being too tired to think of an appropriate joke that incorporates "There is death for the dogs." : P |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 11:39 AM
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I agree on all points, but will reiterate what I've said here before: I respect Crowley as a writer on magic, to a large degree, but as a "religious figure" not very much at all. Much of his writing on magic is gold. Most of the Thelema/Aiwass revelation nonsense is an albatross, in my opinion. Magical working of personal relevance to AC? Yes. Of universal religious significance? No. Interesting figure in the history of magic and underground culture? Yes. My central source for a religioius/philosophical worldview? No.
That being said, I have enough "appriciation" for the old coot to participated in an "appreciation society" discussion forum. But I will call his shortcomings, and especially those of his followers, as I see them, as they are many and frequent.  |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 12:29 PM
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| Also, Crowley's occasional misogyny was probably as sincere as his occasional racism and anti-semtism, which is more warranted and less offensive to me than his views and mistreatment of animals. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 03:43 PM
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I agree, Crowley's misogyny was sincere, so was his racism and anti-semitism. As sincere as any other Victorian Englishman's. He was a product of his times and culture and class. He tried, and was able to overcome much of his cultural conditioning, but he certainly didn't achieve it on these points.
Certainly there are still ugly things to be found ex cathedra in Class A A.'.A.'. works such as "Liber Aleph", but they are nowhere to be found in the Initiatory Rituals of the O.T.O.; This is why I tell my students that it is essential for Thelemites to always try to differentiate between Uncle Al and Perdurabo and To Mega Therion and Baphomet, and to never mistake the Man for the Office he holds, or the seat is speaking from. Uncle Al as Baphomet (for example) wears a rather different hat than Uncle Al as To Mega Therion. |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 03:52 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › Crowley's occasional misogyny was probably as sincere as his occasional racism and anti-semtism, which is more warranted and less offensive to me than his views and mistreatment of animals.
If I read this correctly, your suggestion can be paraphrased: Crowley was a racist, misogynist, anti-Semite - but worse than this is that he didn't have much respect for animals.
A view which, frankly, leaves me speechless. |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 04:18 PM
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Really? Speechless? You don't know any PETA activists, do you? They make me want to eat big heapin' helpings of pork, goat and buffalo IN THEIR FACES while wearing a fur coat and lederhosen.
I have the greatest respect for Vegans, mind you. But the radical PETA fringe I've known are terrorists trying to make a pretty pointless point, IMHO. I won't even entertain dialogue with one of them about the matter. You can't use a persuasive premiss on a person who refuses to acknowledge the point. |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 04:19 PM
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| To put it bluntly, there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals. |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 04:21 PM
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That being said, I'm not a vegeterian. Humans are an animal speicies. Animals eat animals to survive. But that doesn't give the human race a free pass.
"Every man and woman is a star" doesn't mean any more to me than saying "Every man and woman is a special snowflake."
Saying "Everyone is X" renders "X" nearly meaningless. |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 04:57 PM
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Quote: ›
there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals.
Well, that all depends on which ones are being contrasted! |
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lashtal |
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Post subject:
Posted: Jan 02, 2009 - 06:18 PM
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Poelzig wrote: › there is less to like about the human animal than there is about non-human animals.
And you clearly feel this to be especially the case in respect of Jews and women, given your previous comment.
That's the part that left me speechless, at least figuratively, WalterFive.
Frankly, this one-upmanship in idiocy does the site no credit. So, with a reminder to Poelzig to note the reference to "racism" in the Guidelines, this thread is locked. |
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