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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject: What about animals?
 Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 01:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
Posts: 36
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It looks like my cat is about to die, and i wanted to know (since i didn't find any passages) what Thelema says about animals or what happens to them in death?
Are animals stars too?
Thanks in advance,
ceQ
93 93/93 |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 02:36 PM
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Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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Most of the old writers on Magic, Crowley, Fortune, etc. tend to underestimate animals, regarding them as elementals at best.
I do not concur with this assessment. Especially not in the case of cats, a species with whom I have had too many significant relations to dismiss the depth and potency of their individual being and individual characters. There have been enough "coincidences" with them in my life to suspect something along the lines of reincarnation, and more than enough reason to credit them with occult powers of action, autonomy, and intervention. The old traditions and folklore of "familiars" contain more truth than is given credit in the genre of western ceremonial magic, including by Crowley.
My condolences for the loss of your feline companion. He/she will be with you always, so long as you are bound in love. Pay close attention to your dreams, you will find your companion has not left you and will show up at crucial moments with direction and information, and occasionally warning. Cats are powerful creatures. They deserve far more credit as individual "stars" than the average "people" we meet and interact with routinely. |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 02:46 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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I hoped to hear something like that, thank you 
I totally agree you in the fact that cats have totaly individual characters.
Cats are totally underestimated. Thinking of the ancient Egypt, cats were considered sacred and respected beasts.
Dying stars shine even brighter!
I don't know where i picked that one up, or if i made it up subconsciously.
93 93/93 |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 04:40 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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since i can't edit:
sorry for my bad english, I'm from Germany
any other wise words for me, i'd appreciate it. |
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sonofthestar |
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Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 28, 2008 - 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 14, 2005
Posts: 355
Location: The United States of America
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
PropriaDeus93
I had a cat of 13 years that was an orange tabby that looked just like Morris! He ended up with Feline Leukemia, and had to be put to sleep.
About three months later, whilst on the way home, three small kittens about a month old were sitting in a row in front of someone's house.
I told them hello, and two ran underneath the house. One, all black---commenced to follow me home. I must have picked him up five times and put him back in front of the house, but no sooner than I made it a number of steps towards my house, he was trailing me.
I picked the little one up, tucked him under my arm and brought him home!
The moment he entered the door, he ran through the front room, into the kitchen--and right into the litter box my orange tabby used to use.
I had cleaned it, and filled it with fresh litter for just such an occasion!
He knew right where to find it.
Then, he ran into the front room, climbed on the sofa,
and then did hop onto the old chrome Aquarium,--sat on the lid, and proceeded to relax--just as the old tabby used to do. He seemed to know exactly where everything was.
Sometimes, I would say to him, as he sat at my foot
--do you remember that last day? ....and he would stand up and stretch out his front legs--placing his paws on my knee, looking up
---just as my old orange tabby had.
And that's just an introductory phase of his story!
Love is the law, love under will. |
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idolater718 |
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Post subject: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 05:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 15, 2006
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I would always recite to myself "kill and torture, spare not, be upon them" while I shot up animals. The Book of the Law did not elaborate upon their death, but the mess was elaborative and spiritual enough for me.
Also, son of the star, you need to stop stealing peoples' pets. Just because Liber Al doesn't say anything about robbery, it doesn't mean it's okay you rogue. |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject: Re: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 05:47 AM
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Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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idolater718 wrote: › I would always recite to myself "kill and torture, spare not, be upon them" while I shot up animals. The Book of the Law did not elaborate upon their death, but the mess was elaborative and spiritual enough for me.
You are a living argument for summary euthanasia. |
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kidneyhawk |
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Post subject: RE: Re: RE: What about animals?
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 06:04 AM
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Joined: Jun 02, 2006
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Quote: ›
My condolences for the loss of your feline companion. He/she will be with you always, so long as you are bound in love. Pay close attention to your dreams, you will find your companion has not left you and will show up at crucial moments with direction and information, and occasionally warning. Cats are powerful creatures. They deserve far more credit as individual "stars" than the average "people" we meet and interact with routinely.
Wholly agree. The feline I most loved never ceases to appear in my dreams. This isn't some new age flakery...I'm a Dad and my cat wasn't some "only child" upon whom I projected my parental feelings. Still, she returns. And although I also feel pangs of loss, there is joy.
I've posted here many times about "extraterrestrial" connections and such. We also forge "sub-human" connections which are not to be understood as any sort of inferior state.
I, too, am sorry for the difficult situation with your friend. The love you give is a holy thing. And personally I feel its power carries on beyond the realm of appearances.
Thelema is a dynamic, living thing. It's about life, even as it expresses itself in growth, change and death.
Quote: ›
Are animals stars too?
Hell, yes.
93,
Kyle |
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przm28 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 07:37 AM
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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My dog Trinity is one badass pit. She is one of my dearest friends sometimes i seem to commune with her on telekinesis state. My mother is very sick with cancer, im gone alot and trinity lays with her and literally vibrates, almost like shes meditating. Makes my mom feel better. I stumbled across her in a very weird story also. She reminds me of one of my friends that has passed, sometimes seems to have a similar soul. She also sleeps with me and on more than one occasion has protected me from some "outside" threats while in the astral. I also as a side-note try to not bring my human intentions/emotions onto my pets. I think sometimes people tend to be looking for somthing that is not there in there pets. I have had few cats and 6 dogs since my exprience here and trinity is the only pet that has acted how she does. It is really satisfying and neat thing for me to exprience. As far as what happens to our pets, i guess our spines are vertical and there's is horizontal.
Is god to live in a dog?
no pun intended.
cheerz |
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przm28 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 07:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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| And i forgot enjoy your friend for remaining time here. Be happy! Your energy together is eternal. l o v z |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:41 AM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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Thank you for your replies, they were really touching and gave me some solace.
I loved your story SonOfTheStar, i hope i experience something similar.
Quote: ›
The love you give is a holy thing. And personally I feel its power carries on beyond the realm of appearances.
Nicely said, and so true! |
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Cuvalwen |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
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I believe that the presence of a personality- an individual identity- indicates that the creature in question is more than just a biological machine for making more creatures. It operates on a level other than just survival and reproduction, it is conscious of the world around it and of other entities. It can identify patterns and be aware of what is considered acceptable and not acceptable.
My annoyingly intelligent Jack Russels from when I was little certainly came under that heading, and even my mind-numbingly stupid cat can tell when he's about to get medicated, and knows that not using the litter tray makes me cross.
Every cat or dog that I've met has its own personality- I wish I could say the same for all humans.
So basically- yes, animals can be stars. Cats and dogs certainly are. I haven't met enough reptiles to reach a conclusion about them.
And- cats ONLY do their will. They're possibly the most Thelemic creatures on the planet! |
_________________
The first step in trusting others is trusting yourself.
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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2 pictures i took yesterday of my fellow beast which i find pretty good shots
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 12:11 PM
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What a beautiful cat!
S/He looks healthy, may I ask what is wrong? |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 01:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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It's a He
well he stopped eating for like 5 days, doesn't move much, is only laying around at the same spot the whole day etc...
lol, as i am writing this my mom came in and told me she took him to the vet earlier today (couldn't go earlier cuz of feasts & weekend),
and it's not as bad as i expected.
That poor thing has a toothache and is getting operated. We can pick him up later today |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 01:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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I kind of didn't recognize your post till now Cuvalwen,
Your post could fit into some book, totally agree with it!
When i just place my cat inside it's "travel cage" (correct word?), and place it inside my car,
he already knows that something is about to happen, mostly going to the vet, which he hates.
His awareness of the upcoming situation totally makes him, and I'm sure other cats act the same way, an
individual beeing and not an "biological machine for making more creatures" (had to quote that ).
In my eyes cats are the living creatures with kind of the most unique and individual personality of all. |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 02:46 PM
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Joined: Apr 05, 2008
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| Your cat stopped eating for five days and you didn't take him to the vet? |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 03:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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i couldn't, like I explained...
first there were feasts and all shit was closed, and then the weekend came... |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 04:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 464
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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Ah, we are touching on Animal reincarnation, their presence in the Astral, the survival of their spirits after death. To me, many animals are remarkable. Parrots, for example, are quite a different kind of intelligence, the very bright ones like Macaws and Greys and some Cockatoos are very different from cats & dogs and the like.
My own best familiar was a rescue Boxer, a real bully-boy who I named Worf, after the Klingon-- he was every bit as martial, every bit as much of a rockhead, and head of security. He was wild when I got him, spent the first two years of his life tied to something, probably a tree; a latino appearantly used to beat him with a stick. He went crazy when he saw latinos, which was good for me in the neighborhood I lived in. I trained that dawg to voice and hand gestures, worked every day with him for years. Fiercely protective of his land and his pack. I loved him. He was a genuine mother-in-law biter, too!
My ex-wife claimed he had three heads on the Astral plane; one viscious, one goofy and one a shining unformed orb. She claimed he would follow her and follow command.
We had to put him down seven years ago, it was the cancer; it had gotten so big it was starting to block his windpipe. I was quite suprised when after we had him put down his spirit jumped up off the table and rushed for the vet's door to get out to the car. We had him creamated, and placed his ashes under a 4-foot long statue of a Hell Hound in the front yard. But he came home with us the day he died, and still runs with the pack of dogs my ex-wife keeps. He was 12 years old, the best dog I've ever owned.
My current cat haunted the house for at least a year and half before my stepson brought him home, or the ghost-cat that haunted my house walked-in to the cat my stepson brought home; the cat acts just like the ghost. Strange that. |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 04:23 PM
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| How do "feasts" prevent you from taking your cat to the vet? |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 04:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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is it feasts or holiday? i don't know the right vocabulary...
well to make it short: the vet was closed, and it can happen that a cat eats nothing for 2 or more days!
Mine usually does that when it's spring or summer, cuz he hunts down birds or mice...
So we couldn't know what is wrong, you can't see if a cat has toothache... |
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TreeDragon7 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 04:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 27, 2005
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| maybe not AC, but remember that Austin Osman Spare had alot of belief in the spirits of animals. me myself have seen the proof : ghosts of dogs, owls showing up in peculiar places at daytime, and cats following in line at mass and rituals. Theres difinetely an intelligence there. And animals are just as much biological machines as we are. So whats the difference ? I just dont know |
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Walterfive |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 05:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 08, 2005
Posts: 464
Location: 13th Floor Elevator, Enron Hubbard Bldg. Houston, Texxas
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| I don't know either, TreeDragon. Part of the matter is wether one believes in transmigration of the soul from animals to people and vice-versa. I'm not convinced of this phenomena; I'm not sure animal spirits get to migrate to people... |
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Los |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 09:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2008
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Location: NY
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93
First things first -- your cat is a beautiful creature. I'm glad it's not seriously ill, and I wish it a long and healthy life.
Second of all: a few questions for the group. What constitutes being a "star," anyway? Do all animals qualify as stars or just the cute ones that we have domesticated? What about insects? Lice? The crabs? Amoebae? What about carbon atoms?
93, 93/93 |
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OKontrair |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 09:32 PM
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Joined: Dec 18, 2004
Posts: 263
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Yeah! Let's hear it for the mosquito and the plague rat.
OK |
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MichaelStaley |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 10:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 21, 2004
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Los wrote: › What constitutes being a "star," anyway? Do all animals qualify as stars or just the cute ones that we have domesticated? What about insects? Lice? The crabs? Amoebae? What about carbon atoms?
Good question. It's my view that we are a continuum, with division into separate entities being apparent rather than real. The phrase "every man and every woman is a star" has never really resonated with me, were I to be bitingly honest. The star is a facet of the galaxy, and the galaxy a facet of the universe.
Best wishes,
Michael. |
_________________
"It's all in the egg".
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Los |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 02, 2008
Posts: 305
Location: NY
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MichaelStaley wrote: › It's my view that we are a continuum, with division into separate entities being apparent rather than real. Very nicely said. However, that famous line about stars does resonate with me -- as a metaphor. Each star has its natural orbit, just as each of us has a natural course of action (illusory though our separateness may be). Call it the Tao, or the will, or whatever.
But together, we're all one Universe, the Body of Nuit. Or, rather, none.
So I suppose the metaphor could be applied to anything, but it works best with humans. |
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PropriaDeus93 |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:30 PM
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Joined: Dec 24, 2008
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My interpretation of the metaphor "star" is just that every star has it's own way in the galaxy, it is by itself something wonderful, it sends out light and is seen by others.
And so are us living creatures, we have to find our way through the galaxy of life, shine / touch / are seen by others.
Every living creatures is something special and has to be respected, otherwise we collide.
I don't realy see how stars have their "natural orbit" since that would be a way that is predetermined and according to "do what thou wilt" we should find our own way in our galaxy of life.
And yes it's easier for us to adapt the metaphor of the star to creatures with a personality, most likely humans.
amiright? |
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Poelzig |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 29, 2008 - 11:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 05, 2008
Posts: 283
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| I would say if humans can be considered "stars" then lice and plague rats have a fair shot. |
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zardoz |
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Post subject:
Posted: Dec 30, 2008 - 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jul 16, 2004
Posts: 416
Location: Grass Valley, CA USA
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| I see the line "every man and every woman is a star" as signifying a potential quality in humans mostly unrealized. It has to do with radiance of a particular kind. Speaking of metaphors, it may be helpful to read up on the tarot atu, The Star, from the book of Thoth. I have no idea if any animals can realize this but do believe that all creatures possess a spark of the divine fire. |
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